Very good argument! Totally irrefutable, and iron-hard! Because you gave an opinion of your own state of mind. You gave no reason why we should or would believe you... you gave your private opinion.



You are the laughing stock of this forum board, and the new members are getting a good grounding of your inability to focus, argue, and think reasonably. — god must be atheist

I think you have confirmed my opinion. Heaven knows there is a lot I do not know and I don't fault others for not knowing something. But when one is not all-knowing and is trying to impress us with the idea that he is all-knowing, a correction might need to be made, especially when we are dealing with newbies who want to learn. I don't think philosophy is about being all-knowing but rather is about questioning what we think we know. Your point about making a good argument is an important one. :cheer:

My source of information was not Richard Dawkins but the history of education of which I have several books. You really do not know about Aristotle, the church, and Scholasticism, do you?

Thank you for that explanation.

I was grappling with Plato's notion of perfect forms. I don't think we are born knowing what a horse is, but we share some basic knowledge with animals, and an innate fear of spiders and snakes being common. Some people seem wired for music, while others seem wired for the acquisition of languages and others are certainly more into learning kinetically. Leaving a lot of questions about why we recognized patterns and how we learn?

One more thought, our notions of beauty are related to our ability to recognize patterns, things that are symmetric and in harmony are more appealing. Why?

I think empiricism and rationalism are quite sufficiently defined, and that Locke and Liebniz, respectively, are exemplars. Furthemore, that Locke's (and Hume's and a few others) empiricism is the most influential strand of English-speaking philosophy in the Anglosphere. — Wayfarer

I am glad we have agreement. I think those words are important and meaningful. The Catholic church relied heavily on Aristotle for its Scholastic education and the debates about such matters as how many angels could stand on the head of a pin. Those debates were the height of intellectual achievement, until the backlash opposing Aristotle's rationalism. That is when empiricism emerged beginning the science of modernity.

We still have the conflict of empiricism and relationalism. Rationalism can support religious arguments, science/empiricism can not. When a nation needs to understand a pandemic this difference really matters.

But these patterns have to be taught previously in someone's brain. So the ability to reason is soft innate.
John Locke put a good example here. One of the basics of knowledge about Aristotle: one object cannot be a different object at the same time. Perfect we all understand it. But... What about all of those people who will never think about this principle? I mean, imagine a kid born and raised in an island without developed science/education and then he would never heard of this principle and other criteria that give us the ability to reason.
I guess his ability to reason would be more precarious than ours that understand this criteria.

So, it will depend in someone's background to develop a good ability to reason and improve the knowledge. It isn't that innate at all. I think sometimes we born as a tabula rasa. — javi2541997

I am not sure that reasoning is correct? I doubt that is correct because of my experience with a man who was not intellectual and he was more capable of seeing things as they are than I am with all my college education. My thought experiment is the iceman who was found frozen and science has discovered incredible information about him and all the things he carried. To survive people had to perceive reality as it is, more like my friend who was more like an animal in his clear vision than a sophisticated modern man. I think the more sophisticated we get the more we are deluded by our own thinking.

It is not nature that turns a log into a boat. It is human imagination that turns one thing into something else. We are about as far from nature as we can get. Superstition comes from human imagination and that is getting further from truth, right? I have read superstition came late in our history. I have heard it said, if the bridge had not been invented, no one today could build one because our education makes us dependent on what is known. I really wish I could forget everything I know, as see the world as the iceman saw it.

Let's try to avoid simplistic labels. — Xtrix

That is like agreeing to meet and not being specific about the time or place. The word "word" is a label and we can not know what we are talking about without them.

I make an issue of this because of the difference between believing the Bible is God's truth and interpreting it literally, or concluding creationism is not a very good explanation for life as it is. Fearing demons and depending on miracles does not overcome evil as well as science.

Not that long ago, the only shared education most people had was the Bible. Scholasticism, the big advancement in education for Christian Europe was based on the Bible and Aristotle and encouraged debates, but it lacked the empirical thinking we have today because of thinking, rationale is all we need, to know truth. A civilization with mass secular education and empirical thinking is relatively new. I am sure Locke would be thrilled to see our shift from relying solely on the Bible to know God's truth, to empirical thinking.

John Locke is an empiricist, Leibniz is a rationalist. Locke is saying there's no innate knowledge, it's only whatever we glean from the external world. Whereas, Leibniz says knowledge is innate. I read all of these guys in my last semester in undergrad, and I read them before that also, a long time ago. — Dharmi

I am not as well-read as others but I love the word "logos" and have a little knowledge of how our brains work based on modern science that Locke and his contemporaries didn't have.

Logos can be interpreted as, reason, the controlling force of the universe, or as order, mathematical order, universal law. Our brains are structured to recognize patterns so I would say our ability to reason is innate. It is not always a conscious process but can happen on a subconscious level, thus the advice to sleep on the problem want to resolve or I find driving is great for processing my thinking. Driving is a distraction that enables some thinking processes to work better and prevents us from having a chokehold on our beliefs if we are opening to questioning things(being narrow-minded).

However, our brains love to play tricks on us and can be very creative, therefore, just because we think something is true, we can not be sure. That is where empirical thinking comes in. We need to check our reasoning with others, and when possible we need to check our reasoning through the scientific process. A problem with believing things on faith is a failure to adequately check the reasoning and this is why the argument is so important! Looking things up in the Bible is not the best way to gain knowledge. Math is the language of God but how many of us are literate in math?

That is, matter can not manifest without organization, and we can observe cause and effect, and with math, discover universal laws. We can use math, and observe, why things are as they are, but we can not be sure our reasoning is correct. We need to use math or the scientific method to check our reasoning, and when there is new information, we need to check our reasoning again, and again. Logos is perfect. Our ability to know of it is not. :grin:

Yes, it was Nicholas's post that pushed me to check my books, so I could move from the familiar to the unfamiliar and got me so excited I want to take action on a summer camp, but I don't like doing things alone. If there were one other person working with me, today I would be exploring for a good place to do the summer camp. I mean Nicholas got me exploring the mathematical connection and I went crazy with excitement. All of the Hermetic thinking can be brought together with math. Do you realize 3 and 9 have been very important to many cultures? Going back to Jung and Campbell and the consciousness we can all tap into, humans everywhere saw something special in 3 and 9. Why? We have 10 fingers, why don't we have a number for 10 that is not a return to the beginning 1?

And if we can understand the math, the archetypes, we have a center for understanding it all.

It's also interesting to note that one argue that both the concept of the nation and the concept of human races in it's modern form developed around the same time frame - the period when Europe transformed from a collection of fragmented kingdoms into nation states, which then started to colonise the globe. — Echarmion

You missed one of the most important divisions, the religious divisions. When everyone had many gods, it may have been easier to get along with people with different gods? But when we get down to one god and this god has favorites and is a war god, then we get people who fight for this god's "power and glory". We get really crazy notions believing this god wants what we want and we can take it from those people who do not know God but have a false god. The US has freedom of religion by law because Christians of different denominations were persecuting and killing each other. Today we just say those Christians who have a different interpretation of the Bible are not really Christians. :lol:

Our brains are far more limited than we want to believe, and we need to identify with small groups to combat the problem of being alone in the crowd and unsure of our identity, worth, and position. This is why we have so many churches. The smaller groups fulfill our need to belong to a small group. In the past, we had many fraternities and social groups that fulfilled this need.

The ideal is absolute non-discrimination based upon race, but if a group becomes oppressed, it makes sense to self promote to overcome that oppression. That is, if one side cheats and that side also controls the refereeing, I don't see how you can condemn the oppressed for not self-sacrificing by being the only ones to adhere to the non-discriminatory ideal. — Hanover

Do you mean like today's war of the sexes? Not only have people of color become super sensitive to discrimination and past injustices, but women, in general, seem to be having the same experience as people of color opposing the oppression they experienced. We have learned to use the word "she" where we always used the word "he". On TV and in my community I see women everywhere and wonder where the men have gone, what jobs are they doing because they are not as visible as they once were?

"Make America Great again" - good.
"Make white people Great again" - bad.

Why is it that nationality talk and Nationalism in particular is so easily acceptable, and race talk and Racism is so difficult and unacceptable?

For the philosopher, it is obvious that they have the same status as social constructs - imposed arbitrary classifications of humanity by humanity.

For the historian, they are pretty much the same thing. From the National Socialists of Hitler, to the famous signs in the UK of my youth "No Blacks, No Irish, no Dogs", to the incident in New Orleans my attention was drawn to recently. And more or less every violent massacre in the world ever.

So why is Nationalism still tolerated and even lauded? Why is the British flag allowed to be be waved all over the place, but the Nazi flag not so much? (Feel free to substitute your own local good and bad flags here.) — unenlightened

It is much easier to understand people killing each other when they look different. I remember when the British and the Irish were being quite violent and killing each other, and in other places, the same thing was happening, and wondering how in the world do all these people see each other was different? Protestants and Catholics killed each other, Christians and Muslims kill each other, Jews and Muslims kill each other, and Sunni and Shia kill each other. Packs of dogs and primate groups fight against each other to defend territory for their own pack or group. I think behaving as other animals is natural, and that it takes special effort to get us to go against our nature and accept "those people" as one of us.

[reply="Nikolas;512381") 9. thus you will possess the light of the whole world, and all obscurity will fly away from you. [/quote]

I have to reply to this again because this morning I am so excited by the number 9. The number goes with the quote for mathematical reasons. I don't really have anything intelligent to say about this, but must repeat, I wish we could gather at a summer camp and one of the things to do would be to explore numbers 3 and 9. It would be fun to use "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe and explore all the numbers, but that would take many days.

How about a Pythagorian Camp and comparing Pythagorian math with Aztec math and life concepts and what this has to do with Hermeticism? You guys are driving me crazy as I am so excited by the discussion we are having and I so much want to gather with like-minded people. I must find away to do this.

Thank you for that information. I am not so sure it is different from other common beliefs of the day. From the East, the many come from the one. I am kicking myself for loosing a copy of the I Ching in a move because now I can not check my memory but vaguely I remember something being said and Heaven and Earth and other opposites blending. How I wish my memory were stronger so I could compare each explanation of "it" and transformation.

Michael S. Schneider's book "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe- the Mathematical Archetypes of Nature, Art, and Science" is as a bible to me and I quote...

"Yet, paradoxically, the One is more truly real then the Many. In the visible world of nature all is flux. Everything is either being born or dying or moving between the two processes. Nothing ever achieves the goal of perfection or the state of equilibrium that would allow it to be described in essence. The phenomena of nature, said Plato, are always "becoming", never actually "are". Our five senses tell us that they are real, but the intellect judges differently, reasoning that the One, which is constant, creative, and ever the same, is more entitled to be called real than its ever-fluctuating products." This goes with a concept of numbers that are the language of God and are essential to our understanding of truth.

That is, our idea of this or that is disillusion because it is all fluctuating. I have heard in India it is understood when we speak of one thing we are also speaking of its opposite.

I am currently giving a philosophy summer camp some serious thought. I am thinking perhaps I could make something happen in a small coastal town that is desperate for revenue. I would prefer a year-round establishment, but it would be easiest to promote a summer camp. I need a community that will support the idea as the town's much-needed source of income because I don't have the money to pull this off myself. It would include lectures and discussion groups and massages and meditation. A large building with plenty of land would be nice. At least there needs to be space for camping with facilities for cleanliness and cooking.

What pulls this together for me is you making me aware of Hermetism. I have always wanted to create a retreat but I was thinking along the lines of a spiritual retreat and that idea didn't inspire me as much as working with philosophies around Hermetism and the Greek explanations of happiness inspire me. I like it because of the variety of thought and how it can apply to this moment in time. It is more practical than just spiritualism and that is very appealing to me. I like being more earthy and even global warming and the care of our planet can play into this when we include The Mayan Factor and the book you are reading now.

We are starting to open up and I hope this is not too fast and too soon. •
Lane County, Oregon has a population of 382,067 people and we had 11 new cases of covid. That means we are rated at low risk and can return to almost normal as long as we wear masks and distance ourselves. I don't know how happy I am about this. It means the pool will have twice as many people and I don't like that. I would vote for having the pool all to myself but maybe that is a little selfish?

You are such an exciting person to know because you know so much about so many things. I had to lookup Hermetism and I am blown away by all this involves. I bolded the words that stand out as most important to what is happening today. We are in another period of resistance to the dominance of either pure rationality or doctrinal faith.

In Late Antiquity, Hermetism[18] emerged in parallel with early Christianity, Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, the Chaldaean Oracles, and late Orphic and Pythagorean literature. These doctrines were "characterized by a resistance to the dominance of either pure rationality or doctrinal faith."[19] — Wikipedia

I have to add this quote from the same Wikipedia explanation.

Thinkers like Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463–1494) supposed that this 'ancient theology' could be reconstructed by studying (what were then considered to be) the most ancient writings still in existence, such as those of Hermes, but also those of, e.g., Zoroaster, Orpheus, Pythagoras, Plato, the 'Chaldeans', or the Kaballah.[11 — Wikipedia

I am excited by Pythagoras, Kaballah, and "The Mayan Factor" because of the use of math in all of them. I would love a summer camp with teachers who could explain each one and then have a comparison study of them. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all of us could meet at such a summer camp?

I have read 'The Mayan Factor,' by Jose Arguelles.
It is an inspiring book. One I am reading at present is 'Cosmic Consciousness,' by Richard Maurice Bucke. He speaks of how in addition to there being 'consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which would place the individual on a new plane of existence...' Perhaps this aspect is a central truth underlying the religious quests. — Jack Cummins

Good grief another book I need to read. I so want to know of that of which you speak. At this point in time, it is beyond my comprehension.

How did you come to read "The Mayan Factor"? I think few people have. I was very distressed by how intensely people in science forums rejected the book. But things like harmonics are part of science and worth discussion. Understanding the matrix (any matrix) and how they are used to reveal information seems very important to me. I decided the science community in forums is no better than the church of old with their narrow vision and intolerance of unfamiliar information. I think that narrow vision and intolerance have retarded our sciences and leaves us excessively materialistic.

Ataraxia & aponia (Epicurus) + scientia intuitiva (Spinoza) + amor fati / defiance / beatitude (Nietzsche / Camus / Rosset) ... in other words, momentary lapses in "boredom & pain" which (more often than not) accompany some daily form of play... — 180 Proof

My thoughts of happiness come from Plato, Aristotle, Cicero and Thomas Jefferson

What is Plato's definition of happiness?
Like most other ancient philosophers, Plato maintains a virtue-based eudaemonistic conception of ethics. That is to say, happiness or well-being (eudaimonia) is the highest aim of moral thought and conduct, and the virtues (aretê: 'excellence') are the requisite skills and dispositions needed to attain it.Sep 16, 2003

Plato's Ethics: An Overview (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
plato.stanford.edu › entries › plato-ethics
Search for: What is Plato's definition of happiness?
What is Aristotle's concept of happiness?
According to Aristotle, happiness consists in achieving, through the course of a whole lifetime, all the goods — health, wealth, knowledge, friends, etc. — that lead to the perfection of human nature and to the enrichment of human life. This requires us to make choices, some of which may be very difficult. — Stanford

When I was young and trying to figure life out, I realized my idea of happiness was temporary amusements that really were not satisfying and often left me dissatisfied and wanting more. Then I began gardening and realized accomplishments give us an enduring happiness. I stopped chasing after the temporary happiness and began seeking achievements that become enduring happiness.

I want to reply to here because of doubting how much philosophy can help rehabilitate convicts. My reply to him goes with my understanding of happiness and is the same as my belief that education and philosophy can redeem convicts or anyone struggling with life.

Without education in philosophy, I think most people misunderstand the US Declaration of Independence and the pursuit of happiness. Jefferson based that statement on Plato and Aristotle's understanding of happiness. And those who don't know that, do think happiness is a temporary thing, like seeing a good movie, enjoying ice cream, getting drunk and other things that can lead to suffering. Until we understand happiness as these men did, we do have enduring happiness and good judgment.

I want to thank everyone for your responses. It has filled my heart with hope. From now on I won't be commenting on this post anymore. I'm moving on to more loving things. — TaySan

In case you check in with us, I have enjoyed your post.

Oh my, on my way to the pool I listened to beautiful violin music and thought of what you said and the Greeks focus on beauty and good music and Mayan gods and math. I am hesitant to be open about this because I am in the minority and have been attacked for my thoughts. But let us speak of music and transformation.

There is evidence that classical music results in better plant health. Music has been used for healing people. I certainly felt good as I listened to the music while driving to the pool and with your post in mind my question is- can music transform us? What exactly is transformation? Is it just emotional or also physical?

There is a lot of talk about the plasticity of our brains. Music and also meditation can change our brain waves.

:grin: I have to return to reading "The Mayan Factor" and Jose Arguelles's explanation of the transformation humans and the planet are experiencing. What he says is really far out there and weird to our modern minds, but did he discover a truth we should know?

That is a good thought. I do not know of philosophies that speak directly to the problem of climate change, but the Bible tells us to be good stewards of the land and Islam is very supportive of learning. Perhaps we should make a group effort to bring together all the philosophy and religious notions we can to address the climate change problem. This might make a good thread that stands alone to focus on the one problem we really do need to resolve FAST.

I've worked with former prisoners over the years - hard core criminals - almost all of them knew the right thing to do. The consistent theme is that they did what they did because something mysterious came over them or 'the knife just went in' or 'before I knew it my fists were hitting her' or 'I snapped'. Their more righteous self temporarily went 'off line'.

I am not big on making all encompassing conclusions from this, but I will say that the difference between choosing to do the right thing and choosing to do the wrong thing is often located in person's sense of self rather than the nature of the action. — Tom Storm

Yes, our sense of self and our emotions and addictions do become a complicating factor. We do not have to go to the extreme of convicts. Obese people and addicts feel compelled to do what they do. Shoplifting is associated with youthful "catch me if you can" thinking (monkey thinking) and with grief. How about speeding when we drive? :grin: It is hard to be good all the time.

Back to the convict example, I engaged with convicts and I would say at least some of them were confused. One young man was really looking forward to being in the correction system because he thought it meant real correction through education and he knew he was not prepared for life. It really upsets me when an abused woman finally kills her abuser and is put in prison. I don't think that is right.

Can philosophy help these people? I think it can but it has to be learned because this thinking does not come naturally and we all need support from others especially when we are trying to make a personal change. This is why the classics and philosophy or religion are important. Because we can learn to use our minds to live intentionally, to let go of the past and create ourselves as new people. In religion, this called born again. Religion has the benefit of a support group and not so much philosophy, but it is all about learning.

AA groups speak of our higher selves- that part of us that knows better. Well, it might not actually know what philosophy can teach us, but it has a desire to make the right choice. We may lack the strength at first. We may have really bad thinking habits that hold us down. But we all have a higher self that wants to get things right.

Wow-what a nice way of explaining. Are you coming from Eastern culture? And I like what Jack Cummins said about getting beyond binary thinking.

I have an 8 A.M. appointment for swimming and I am going to enjoy so much contemplating what the two of you have said while I exercise. Thank you for a wonderful start to this day.

Perhaps you speak of fast and slow thinking? Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman explains fast and slow thinking.

Most of the time we are in fast thinking mode and automatically do things without thinking. Slow thinking consumes a lot more energy. :lol: After a couple of hours in the forum, I have to take a nap. Slow thinking is the real thinking that separates us from other animals.

Slow thinking is best when we learn the higher-order thinking skills.

Higher-order thinking, known as higher order thinking skills (HOTS), is a concept of education reform based on learning taxonomies (such as Bloom's taxonomy). The idea is that some types of learning require more cognitive processing than others, but also have more generalized benefits. In Bloom's taxonomy, for example, skills involving analysis, evaluation and synthesis (creation of new knowledge) are thought to be of a higher order than the learning of facts and concepts which requires different learning and teaching methods. Higher-order thinking involves the learning of complex judgmental skills such as critical thinking and problem solving.

Higher-order thinking is more difficult to learn or teach but also more valuable because such skills are more likely to be usable in novel situations (i.e., situations other than those in which the skill was learned). — wikipedia

I would say being capable of thinking does not automatically result in good thinking. Education is very important to good thinking.

Let us be clear, reading the Bible does not equal becoming a good thinker. We can hold an understanding of the Bible without higher-order thinking skills. In fact, the 2012 Texas Republic agenda was to prevent education in higher-order thinking skills.

My question is if anyone can explain why they would believe this, and how it’s okay for morality to be subjective. — Franz Liszt

Morality is subjective because we are social animals and live in groups. All social animals must comply with the group's culture or be expelled from the group. Or at least pushed to the outer circle where one is more apt to be eaten by predators.

A moral is a matter of cause and effect and Cicero said we are compelled to do the right thing when we know what it is. We feel uneasy when we do what we believe is wrong. We might comfort ourselves by rationalizing why it is okay to do something we know is wrong but that does not change the fact that we do feel uncomfortable doing what we believe is wrong.

I guess you have to make the case that moral statements like this are justifiable epistemologically in whatever philosophical/spiritual system you settle on. Should be easy to do if you are a Christian (although it doesn't stop the prosperity gospel folks and neo-liberals of faith from looking past injustice and disadvantage).

It also interests me what the role of morality or social justice might be in a world where where matter isn't real and only consciousness is true. — Tom Storm

My thinking is based on Cicero and the notion that we choose the right thing when we know what that is. If you disagree, it would help me form an argument if you say why you do not agree.

Why bother with considering a world without matter? I don't think I would like a world without matter.

I am not wishing to go into the wilderness of mere relativism, but wish to be aware of the many perspectives because this awareness leads to a certain amount of distance. I don't believe that humanity has overcome the need for religious thinking, because even the most rational scientists have to encounter the unexpected and unpredictable. Perhaps the people who think that they have no moral dilemmas, will get to the point where they feel the guilt of conscience, even though they may not call it 'sin.' — Jack Cummins

That is where I rely on Cicero and the belief that humans are compelled to do the right thing when they know what that is.

We all know shoplifting is wrong but how wrong? When we do wrong, we justify it. As in shoplifting, or paying a worker a wage that is not a livable wage. Capitalism can lead to great inequality and robbing from the rich is not so wrong. It can be seen a fair equalizing. I am not saying that shoplifting is right, but that we justify doing what we know is wrong. Justifying our wrongs proves Cicero is right. We need to see ourselves as the good guys. It is a biologically and psychologically determined fact.

I just read a book about education that is so racist it is shocking that such a book can be rewritten and published in this day and age! The man who wrote the book believes he is doing a good thing. This is where philosophy and science come in! In a democracy, we need to argue until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. We do not see this as the word of God, but an ongoing process to have, and live by, the best reasoning possible.

Economics - where money and resources are prioritized is almost entirely a reflection of the cultural priorities of a society. — Tom Storm

I am amazed by the huge transfer in wealth we are experiencing with so much money being given to citizens who have done nothing to earn it and telling them to spend it to stimulate the economy. I don't think that has been well thought out and I really want to live long enough to know how this does work out. I don't know if this is caring about the people or a new way of thinking what is best for the economy? I like it a whole lot better than Reagan's denial of people needing help and slashing the domestic budget and pouring money into military spending. But in the Reagan years, our dependency on OPEC oil and OPEC embargoing oil to the US, lead to an economic crash, and at the time the only way to correct that problem was having the military might to take back control of oil and keep it.

Trying to take control of Afghanistan did not go well, and setting up half the people to want to be like the West and leaving them to the mercy of the other half that wants to defend a way of life that is as old as biblical times, is a human crisis that I am very ashamed of.

Is it good human values to destroy the lives of others, so we can have a high standard of living? Once we have intervened, is it morally our responsibility to defend those who want to be as the West? Should we ask families to give up their sons' and daughters' lives in a defense of people on the other side of the world? I am really torn up at the moment because of our role in Afghanstan?

I am wondering about the economic plays and how they fit into human values.

I think people know a lot in the West. Or anywhere on the planet for that matter. It's just that we sometimes don't apply that knowledge all too well. We're still human, after all.

And yes, the link between science and philosophy still seems obscure to me but I'm getting there — TaySan

I do not have so much faith in what the West knows. We have been specialized and our knowledge seems very limited to our specialty and our personal lives. In the US we are much more apt to be Christian and to know nothing of philosophy! So we know our specialty, our personal lives, and how our own particular church interprets the Bible. That is not knowing a lot. But instead leads to a lot of conflicts because individually, we know so little.

Someone put a lot of work into that explanation. Is it your original work?

Personally, I think family is very important. Next to that is a sense of community. But that is the way of the female. Our identity is about relationships, whereas, male identity seems centered on what a male does, a carpenter, a welder, a machinist, a farmer etc..

I think it’s a matter of fact, although I’d have to research it to find the specifics. It’s not that they’re not as charitable, but that Christianity has an explicit command to care for the poor and sick. But I’d be happy to be proven — Wayfarer

I think all religions are basically the same. However, they are organized differently. Rome gave Christianity its organization and when Rome in the West failed, the Church had to pick up much of the responsibility of government. But charity is common to different belief systems.

Dāna (Devanagari: दान) is a Sanskrit and Pali word that connotes the virtue of generosity, charity or giving of alms in Indian philosophies.[1][2] It is alternatively transliterated as daana.[3][4]

In Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism, dāna is the practice of cultivating generosity. It can take the form of giving to an individual in distress or need.[5] It can also take the form of philanthropic public projects that empower and help many.[6]

According to historical records, dāna is an ancient practice in Indian traditions, tracing back to Vedic traditions.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%81na — Wikipedia

Yes. Of course it is. When you have well-rounded education you not only have well rounded individuals but more empathy and lack of violence in the streets. — javi2541997

I think I love you! I have returned to buy old, grade school textbooks because there is a new committee to study education for democracy and I want to organize something locally to build public support for a return to education for democracy. In book after book, there are stories about family and community that at one time created a different reality from what we are experiencing today.

Can you find old textbooks? If you can find them we can bring the past into the present. With a book you can show people the "thought" is not your own but comes from books of a past that was different from the present. Look for information about what international banking has to do with turning us into products for industry and the production of national wealth. It takes money to make money and a properly educated mass is good for bank loans.

I think this is a transition period. We need wealth to have good education and medical care, libraries, the arts, etc. We are new at having so much money. Hopefully, we will regain wisdom and do better. :heart: :flower:

Generally speaking, Christian charitable and missionary organisations have been well ahead of Buddhists and Hindus when it comes to actually doing stuff. — Wayfarer

Again, I think this is an economic matter. In the US, not that long ago, Christianity helped the poor by assuring them they were closer to God than the rich. I was strongly impressed by Jesus and poverty being closer to God. Although I decided I am not Christian, I internalized fear of working for the money instead of the cause. In the past, Christian leaders have worked with the US government to get people to accept poverty and not rebel in protest against low wages and poor working conditions. Christan leaders worked to mobilize the cold war against those "godless people". Christian leaders have supported war and it was the Christian Right and the invasion of Iraq that ended my belief that is wrong to argue against Christianity. Billy Graham was one of those leaders and he did a marvelous Christmas show announcing God wants us to send our sons and daughters into the Iraq war, you know the war that was the "power and glory".

How do you know of the charitable work being done by Buddhists and Hindus that makes you feel comfortable determining they are not as charitable as Christians?

I don't really have a strong view on this. I am attracted to some Buddhism ideas - but isn't everyone? I don't see any Asian cultures that I would swap for mine. I am always most interested in how cultures manage poverty, illness, work and law and order. — Tom Storm

I think how a country manages poverty is very much an economic matter. The US was totally dependent on charity and government had nothing to do with the welfare of people until Roosevelt and the Great Depression. Some people continue to fight against the government managing welfare issues. Some European countries are more advanced in the government taking care of welfare matters and it seems secular people are more in favor of a government that does manage welfare issues, while there are Christians who want to keep the government out of doing what charity should do. In fact, Christianity is known in the US for getting people to accept poverty before the US moved from an industrial economy to a consumer economy.

Okay, and if we decided who is a Muslim and who is not, would there be the same concerns about who is really Muslim and who mistakenly thinks s/he is a Muslim? Do we want to close our borders to Muslims because they could be terrorists or do we want to stand for religious freedom? If we stand for religious freedom who gets to chose who is a Christian, who is a Muslim, who is a Jews, etc.. Can I claim to be Buddist without being a member of a Buddhist group? What are the boundaries of religious freedom?

Interesting idea. Christianity is an easy target in its limited literalist formulations. I have a soft spot for Christianity and unlike Nietzsche and other resentful thinkers, I consider its reverence towards the weak, the marginalized, the lost, the 'bungled and the botched' to be of profound importance to culture.

It's a pity so much Christianity - especially where it is growing fastest - is of a grotesque, materialistic fundamentalist bent. But it seems most religions and spiritual systems have their gross populist variations. — Tom Storm

I really do not believe Christians are doing such a good job of being tolerant and compassionate people when compared to Hindus and Buddhists. Until Bush Jr. took us to war with Christian support I did not argue religion, but that was the last straw. Trump and his Christian supporters are even worse. Christianity without education in the classics is what Germany had and we have had that since 1958.
To be clear, Germany was a Christian Republic not so different from ours and our enemy. The US replaced the classics with German philosophers, and adopted Germany's models of bureaucracy and education. We are now Christian and what we defended our democracy against.

How do you come by your opinion of Hindus and Buddhists and other Asian people living with Eastern philosophy?

It is quite complex when we as a kid are taught since 3 years old how to do "things" but not question anything. Just do it if you want have a job. Doesn't matter if you are agree or not. You have to pass all the university exams doesn't matter if the classes and the content have quality or not. — javi2541997

My grandmother was a school teacher when we had one-room schools. Her generation of teachers thought that they defending democracy in the classroom because they became teachers as we entered the first world war, and it was the job to mobilize us for war and get us through the war years. I have a copy of the book of the 1917 National Education Conferences, and among other things, schools taught women to substitute cornmeal for flour so we could send our allies our wheat. Women knit soldiers' socks. School children used their lunch money to buy war bonds. When industry tried to close the schools, teachers argued an institution of making good citizens could make patriotic citizens and before the military technology of WWII our defense depended on the patriotism of every citizen. I want to make this point very clear, our defense today depends on technology and taxpayers to pay for that very expensive technology.

When my grandmother's generation was defending democracy in the classroom that meant giving everyone a well-rounded education for individual growth. This included teaching literary, music, and art appreciation because a well-rounded education means well-rounded individuals. That is a totally different human being than what we have today. Pericles of Athens spoke of how Athenians were different from Spartans. Athenians were well-rounded and enjoyed liberty. Spartans were highly specialized for war and their women had far more liberty than women in Athens, but overall Spartants had very little liberty compared to Athenians.

Germany was the modern-day Sparta and the US was the modern-day Athens. Hitler spoke of the New World Order and Eisenhower used the term Military, Industrial Complex. We have education for the Military, Industrial Complex since 1958. The US is now the strongest military force on earth and its democracy is in big trouble!

I am 15 credits short of a degree because I refused to play the game of flattering my professors and I stayed true to myself and I concluded I could not bow to the evils of a college education. I have continued reading and I listen to college lectures from The Great Courses company and love forums that for me, are like talking with fellow college friends. My life is devoted to an intellectual revolution and reestablishing the liberty we once had.

Tom I wonder if a thread about, why there is so much opposition to Christianity, would succeed? If I did such a thread I would want Christians involved, but on the other hand, I am not comfortable trying to disprove their superstitious notions. However, the ones you speak of are quite intolerable!

I totally agree with you, except for your understanding of the power of faith. Faith healing is a proven reality even if is a witch doctor chasing out demons and doing the healing with feathers and rattle. This is very important if you want to oppose Christian belief in the supernatural. Consider the placebo effect. Placebos are proven effective. Consider Chopra a doctor from India who explains how powerful our thoughts are. This is scientifically proven and when we understand it is the power of our thoughts, no matter what religion we are, or what gods we pray to, that leads to our success or our healing, then we can argue it is not a supernatural being that causes good things to happen in our lives, but good thinking.

Our brains can chemically correct our problems, and good thinking can lead to good choices such as meditating, healthy eating, exercise, taking steps to avoid harmful stress, and good sleeping habits. And during a pandemic cleanness, wearing a mask, keeping our distance, and avoid gatherings.

:heart: I just bought a very old first-grade textbook on health to share with my 6-year-old, great-granddaughter, and to show people to convince them we need to return to some of the old-fashioned ideas about education. Especially now, I think our young children need to have more of a sense of community than they have with the isolation they are experiencing. The way old textbooks are written exudes a sense of community. Back in the day, we could not rely on medical technology as we do today, so Christians and non-Christians got the same lessons on avoiding the spread of disease and the disaster Trump and some well-meaning Christians lead us into. It infuriates me when well-meaning preachers argue in favor of ignoring the rules for stopped the spread of Covid. That is not how the old first-grade textbook explains our duty as citizens to avoid the spread of disease.

Anyone saying science has made philosophy irrelevant doesn't seem to understand what philosophy is or how it works in academia. — Christoffer

Those who think that have technology confused with science. Philosophy and science deal with universals, technology does not.

asians have created different models of the energy system of the body. and they generally feel that that energy should not just go to the brain. they indeed call that energy blockage. when I see obese people who are exhausted, I think: these people don't understand energy at all. — TaySan

That is an interesting thought worth pondering. I think education in the US could be improved with the benefit of improving mental and physical health for everyone.

A body-mind-spirit model in health: an Eastern approach
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
by C Chan · ‎2001 · ‎Cited by 213 · ‎Related articles
In striking contrast, Eastern philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism and traditional Chinese medicine adopt a holistic conceptualization of an individual and his or her ... — C Chan

It is sad in the West we are so sure of ourselves and appear to know so little. In general, we don't even know what science has to do with philosophy and what that has to do with health.

The obvious question is "Why are you here?" — T Clark

Excellent question.