NoberernoLife will NEVER acknowledge that Allah cannot hate the followers of the god of Abraham...because Allah IS the god of Abraham.

Nobeer is not interested in a discussion of what is true...he is interested in venting his hatred toward Muslims. Okay...for some people that is a good thing, perhaps an important thing, to do.

I think the position you should take on this now is informed by something any sailor might tell you: Don't piss into the wind. — Frank Apisa

Thank you. :lol: The way I am built it is really hard to piss into the wind. I could try spitting into the wind but I don't think that would work so well either.

Seriously I think you stated the argument better than I have. Clearly stating Allah is the God of Abraham. Period nothing to argue.

Do you have a reference where a) the bible and b) the bible thumpers call for the DEATH of homosexuals?
Please show it, otherwise I call BS on you. — Nobeernolife

Really you are not aware of news in the USA and Christians interpreting the Bible to justify discrimination and even brutalizing of homosexuals?

Nazi Germany
While many of the Christian majority countries in Europe, the Americas and Asia had begun to decriminalise homosexuality by the mid 20th century, Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party, with intense far-right nationalist support, outlawed homosexual groups and included homosexuals as one of the minority groups sent to concentration camps. An estimated 3000-9000 homosexuals died in concentration camps between 1933 and 1945, with another 2000-6000 survivors made to serve the rest of their sentence in prison under Paragraph 175.

United Kingdom
From 1533 the capital felony for any person to "commit the detestable and abominable vice of buggery with mankind or beast", was repealed and re-enacted several times, until it was reinstated in 1563 remaining unchanged until 1861.[26] The last execution took place on 27 November 1835 when James Pratt and John Smith were hanged at Newgate.

One source claims the last execution for sodomy in the British Empire happened in the Colony of Tasmania (now part of Australia) in 1867.[27]

United States and colonial America
See also: Sodomy laws in the United States
Colonial America had the laws of the United Kingdom, and the revolutionary states took many of those laws as the basis of their own, in some cases verbatim.[26] The last law where the death penalty was on the statute books was South Carolina, the old British law was not repealed until 1873, twelve years after the mother country.[26]

The number of times the penalty was carried out is unknown. Records support two executions, and a number of more uncertain convictions, such as "crimes against nature".[26]

I doubt if we would be speaking of this if individuals didn't take matters into the own hands and act on that same mentality of the past, killing and persecuting homosexuals today.

Search Results
Web results
History of violence against LGBT people in the United States ...
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › History_of_violence_against_LGBT_peo...
The history of violence against LGBT people in the United States is made up of assaults on gay men, lesbians, bisexual, and transgender individuals (LGBT), ...

‎Violence against LGBT ... · ‎1990–1999 · ‎2000–2009 · ‎2010–2019
Significant acts of violence against LGBT people - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LG...
Jump to United States - The police had historically described his death as suicide, but a 2017 inquest — the third on his death — admitted he was murdered ...

US man charged with triple murder targeting LGBT victims - BBC
https://www.bbc.com › news › world-us-canada-48564480
Jun 7, 2019 - According to the prosecutor's office, Mr Davis and Mr Blancher were gay men, and Ms Cameron was transgender, US media said. Prosecutors ...

Detroit Man Charged in 3 Killings Targeted L.G.B.T. People ...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2019/06/08 › us › detroit-lgbtq-killing
Jun 8, 2019 - Officials said the man, Devon Robinson, shot the victims — two of whom were gay and one who was a transgender woman — on May 25. An ...

L.G.B.T. People Are More Likely to Be Targets of Hate Crimes ...
https://www.nytimes.com › interactive › 2016/06/16 › us › hate-crimes-ag...
Jun 16, 2016 - Even before the shooting rampage at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people were already the most ...

Yes. All who do not kowtow to Christianity are to eventually be destroyed. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Looks true to me. The Christian right not only elected Bush Jr. and Cheny, but they got them reelected after the wrongful invasion of Iraq. We could also speak of the Zionist Christians and Israel's failure to meet United Nations mandates and Trump's approval of Israel's land grab and the Christian Right that supports him.

Ditto in Christianity and the bible to those who want to interpret it that way. Right wing Christians do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That is the correct fact. And now about the treatment of people with dark skins and or Native Americans, Christians do not have a good track record.

dismiss the Old Testament because it precedes Christianity by 3000 years. Fundamentally, it is a something for the Jews to deal with.
Fact is that the Jesus figure (and it is irrelevant if he existed or not) never fought wars, ordered and conducted murder and rape, had sex slaves, married 6-year olds, and ruled an empire with an iron fist. I could go on, but I think the difference to the "perfect man" of islam should be obvious. — Nobeernolife

Fine, Let us agree there is no big difference between the God of Abraham religions and they are all based on the same false beliefs and unacceptable behaviors and end this argument.

Except I haven't seen an explanation of when Christians stopped behaving badly. They still have Jim Crow mentality in the South of the US and it was not that long ago when segregation was a very ugly reality including terrorism to keep the dark skinned people powerless. The Native Americans are still not respected and they were treated very badly by the WASP who took their land. And when did one Christian group stop persecuting and killing another? When? What happened that changed the mentality of Christians and lead to them respecting all people and protecting everyone's rights equally?

We actually do begin in paradise, from a babies POV. All their needs and wants are being met, hopefully, by a parent and the tribe that one is born in. That heavenly situation changes of course when the child grows up and has to start providing for others and his tribe. That is when duty makes most think that they are no longer in heave. Lest we forget though, gods are created to serve mankind and not the other way around like what G D self serving churches do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yes! When I was a Toastmistess I thought being President was the best thing in the world. Little did I know long term members didn't run for president because they understood the responsibility of serving others was not a piece of cake. :lol: Being a god would be much worse.

You are way more knowledgeable on this issue.

From the little I know of the German and Japanese systems, they have a well organized, unionized work force and those have been shown to be more productive. Meanwhile, many of the Western governments try hard to fight against organized and unionized workers to the detriment of production and advancement. Seeing this is partly why my socio economic demography pyramid theory is based on organized guilds that would bring production to it's highest possible degree.
— "

My introduction to the democratic model was a seminar for supervisors. Number one, as people in a democracy, should understand, the leaders are responsible, and if an employee screws up, the leader assumes responsibility for this and checks to be sure s/he did a good job of explaining the task that was screwed up. Next, remain encouraging, do not blame or threaten because stressing employees makes it harder for them to perform well, Imagine the effect on families if this what people experienced when they went to work.

Consider the way of autocratic industry, blaming and punishing and threatening because displeasing the person in charge can mean being fired and loosing everything, including one's car, home, and family. Being insubordinate is forbidden! Ignoring the employees who point out problems and corrections is common. Constantly demeaning the laborer is common. Now the parent teaches the child to survive in this reality by being as terrible as the employer. But if you check the Bible the democratic way is not taught. The autocratic way is taught and the male hierarchy of authority holds all the power.

We are so used to impediments from governments that it is doubtful that our Western societies will move that way — "

:love: This is too good to last. You are opening the door for me to explain what I feel passionate about. We are living under Prussian Military order applied to citizens. There are excellent reasons for this but it crushes individual liberty and power and we defended our democracy against this. But there are serious problems with the bureaucracy we had before adopting the Prussian Military model, and we were made aware of the problems when we shifted to the new model. Now like the followers of Hitler we think we are superior to all others and this smells of fascism.

It seems that many, especially in the simplistic uneducated U.S. that, socialist, to many, means something other than democracy with necessary and required social programs. They see social one payer medicine and education as pure invasive socialism.

Stupid is as stupid thinks and the U.S is intentionally dumbing down it's population just as religion tries and has succeeding in doing. — "

This pandemic maybe changing our opinion about what it means to defend the citizens. A few people understood our health is a matter of national defense, but now just about everyone understands that.

Yes, the US is intentionally dumbing down the population because the Prussian MIlitary bureaucracy is about making decisions at the top and controlling with policies, that are made by committees that are dismissed once the policy is made. Now all the generals can be killed and the war will go on because not even the generals are needed to keep the beast alive. All that is required is for the citizens to follow policy. I like the Christian concept of the beast because it so totally applies. When Roman was fighting for its life, it became the beast consuming all resources into the defense of Rome as is the case of the US today.

That was a mix of many concepts and I hope it all makes sense. Prussian Military bureaucracy makes the beast very strong but this is not sustainable. I can not think of a better attack on the beast than the pandemic! Kill the economy and the beast dies, civilizations fall. That is the Military-Industrial Complex comes crashing down and right now, life in the US depends on the beast staying alive. That is leading to insane economic decisions. Just like Rome. Only this time besides the threat of China and Russia and the mid-east unraveling, a bug too small to see is having the effect of an atomic bomb on wall street and throughout the economy. The beast must have oil and money or it dies. Get it? The barbarians are pandemics.

I don´t think Christianity is about "kings and slaves", unless you talk about the old Testament, which precedes Christianity by 3000 years or so. That stuff is really a Jewish problem it seems to me. Jesus was a powerless hippie type who did not interfere with the authorities and in fact allowed them to kill him. So I do not really see how Xtianity has anything to do with a form of government.

Islam of course, is a completely different thing. Founded by a ruthless warlord, it is only about government and power. (Again, this is why the notion of islam being just some sort of oriental Xtianity is so naiive and ill-informed). — Nobeernolife

You cheat. You know the Bible is about kings and slaves and surely we claim the Bible is God's truth, and then you dismiss all the evil in the Bible, because of the Hellenized voice of Jesus giving us a new religion that should have never been tied to the old testament but had to be tied to the old testament to deify Jesus and justify the new religion with a history and the existing large population of Jews. It is very important this God be jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing because He is a God of war and slaves are part of the booty of war.

A ruthless warlord like David? He is the role model for Trump and his relationship with women. :rage:

The Bible contains several references to slavery, which was a common practice in antiquity. The biblical texts outline sources and legal status of slaves, economic roles of slavery, types of slavery, and debt slavery, which thoroughly explain the institution of slavery in Israel in antiquity.[1] The Bible stipulates the treatment of slaves, especially in the Old Testament.[2][3][4] There are also references to slavery in the New Testament.[5][6] — Wikipedia

Jesus was an anarchist because his family lived in poverty and the Pharisees, protected by Rome, enjoyed wealth that was built on the labor of the poor, just as it is today. There is no empirical proof of Jesus but to me, he seems pretty realistic and just like many 30-year anarchists today. However, I think the Bible writers gave him things to say that he didn't actually actually say. I think the myth of Jesus was built as the Greeks built their previous mythology. "The word" is a Greek concept and the Hellenized Jews created a better religion than God's favorite did. It is too bad it had to be tied to the jealous, revengeful, punishing and fearsome God and totally ridiculous stories of creation.

Being a supernatural god would be a bore I think.

Now being a human god without super powers, the epitome of being human, would be us being true to our instincts that should be pushing us to be the fittest human we can be. In terms of our instincts, that would give us the right to get as many girls as we can get. Our instincts do not know that we live in societies where such antics are frowned upon now that we have become apex predators instead of the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet.

This song says what we should all be trying to do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

A reminder, I don't dare do Youtube because my internet time is limited by information bites and if I use them too fast, I wind up with no internet until the next billing cycle.

As for your argument, yes, the Greeks made those arguments and conclude with the same reasoning. We should excel to be as the Gods physically and mentally. Socrates is best known for his insistence that we must deliberately expand our consciousness, which totally opposed the Garden of Eden story and the sin of wanting knowledge. Socrates' teaching is beneath Cicero's conclusion that we are compelled to do the right thing when we know what that is. Knowledge is essential to good moral judgment and our liberty.

And it was not Christians who gave us democracy, but they have given us wars we should have not fought and Trump. :groan:

This is a typical example of deception by omission. Yes islamic rule does allow Jews and Christians to live as second-class citizens under Shariah..... but ONLY if they pay the islamic head tax, otherwise they get killed. Plus, they must not pray openly, build new churches or synagogues, prosyletize, criticize islam, or marry muslim women.

So by omitting the fine print of islamic rules, we are left with "allow them to practise their religions", which sounds oh-so-wonderfully touchy-feely nice. — Nobeernolife

And when did Christians start being any different? When?

I do not see that the "God of Abraham" has anything to do with democracy. To the contrary, Christianity has the concept of separation between church and state. — Nobeernolife

Yes, Christianity is about kings and slaves, not democracy. That is why I object so strongly to Christianity. It is not compatible with democracy, and a strongly object to Christians having the power to make someone like Trump the President of the US.

I did not say that "w other ideas of the God of Abraham are better". I explained (how many times now?) that seeing how Allah hates the followers of the God of Abraham, it would have to be schizophrenic god of you claim it is the same god. That is simple logic.

Is that really so hard to wrap your mind around? — Nobeernolife

You obviously have different information than I do, and I don't believe as you do. Is that so hard for you to get your head around? Here is what I believe is true.

People of the Book
Muslims believe that God had previously revealed Himself to the earlier prophets of the Jews and Christians, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims therefore accept the teachings of both the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels. They believe that Islam is the perfection of the religion revealed first to Abraham (who is considered the first Muslim) and later to other prophets. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians have strayed from God's true faith but hold them in higher esteem than pagans and unbelievers. They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the "seal of the prophecy," by which they mean that he is the last in the series of prophets God sent to mankind. Muslims abhor the followers of later prophets. This attitude serves to explain the extreme Muslim animosity toward Bahais, followers of a nineteenth-century prophet, who in the Muslim mind is false.

https://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/faithpeople.html

Christians think Christianity is the perfection of the original of the God of Abraham's religion. I think that god is a false god and certainly would not argue one of the God of Abraham religions is better than secular thinking, science, and democracy. Those who think they know God, know God not. We experience the manifestation of the universe but we do not experience God, so there is absolutely no way to know God. People who think they know God and absolute truth are absolutely dangerous.

Industrial democracy is an arrangement which involves workers making decisions, sharing responsibility and authority in the workplace. While in participative management organizational designs workers are listened to and take part in the decision-making process, in organizations employing industrial democracy they also have the final decisive power (they decide about organizational design and hierarchy as well).[1]

In company law, the term generally used is co-determination, following the German word Mitbestimmung. In Germany, companies with more than 2000 employees (or more than 1000 employees in the coal and steel industries) have half of their supervisory boards of directors (which elect management) elected by the shareholders and half by the workers.

Although industrial democracy generally refers to the organization model in which workplaces are run directly by the people who work in them in place of private or state ownership of the means of production, there are also representative forms of industrial democracy. Representative industrial democracy includes decision-making structures such as the formation of committees and consultative bodies to facilitate communication between management, unions, and staff. — wilipedia

What does that have to do with religion? The God of Abraham has a kingdom not a democracy. One of the most important wars in history was the Maccabean revolt. They were Jews and went to war with the Greeks who were occupying the land at the time. The Greeks put anyone in offices who they thought could do the work, paying no attention to a Jewish person's linage and social position dependent on birth. The Greek way was merit hiring versus patrimony. You know patrimony, the way Trump is benefitting his family with his position as President of the US. Patrimony and goes with Trump's idea that it is okay for some people to have privileges that others do not have. God has favorites and rewards them or punishes as He sees fit. Trump. And that is not okay in a democracy, but Christians have the power to impose that on us and we are pushing back.

That is irrelevant to my comment. I was simply pointing out that the description of the Allah character is so different from the description of the Yahweh character, that if we claim it is the same god figure, this god figure has to be schizophrenic. I am not arguing about how the religious books came about, I am simply ,making a logical point. Why are you so onerary? — Nobeernolife

Since you are the authority on Islam and I most certainly am not, please correct this Wikipedia explanation of Allah and explain how other ideas of the God of Abraham are better.

n Islam, God (Arabic: الله‎, romanized: Allāh, contraction of الْإِلٰه al-ilāh, lit. "the God") is the absolute one, the all-powerful and all-knowing ruler of the universe, and the creator of everything in existence. Islam emphasizes that God is strictly singular (tawḥīd ); unique (wāḥid ); inherently One (aḥad );[1] and also all-merciful and omnipotent.[2] According to Islam, God is neither a material nor a spiritual being.[3] According to Islamic teachings, beyond the Throne[4] and according to the Quran, "No vision can grasp him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."[5]

In Islam there is only one God and there are 99 names of that one God (al-asmāʼ al-ḥusná lit. meaning: "The best names"), each of which evokes a distinct attribute of God.[6][7] All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive god.[8] Among the 99 names of God, the most familiar and frequent are "the Compassionate" (Ar-Raḥmān) and "the Merciful" (Ar-Raḥīm).[6][7] Creation and ordering of the universe is seen as an act of prime mercy for which all creatures praise God's attributes and bear witness to God's unity. — wikipedia

If foreknowledge is impossible, then god can not be omniscient.
As I said, you can not have it both ways. — Nobeernolife

You got that right.

That is a hierarchy of authority. It separates management from the laborer as Christianity separates those born to rule from those born to serve.

What the heck! Why are you so onerary? Mohammid plagiarized Jewish and Christian stories to write a book for Arabs. The mentality at that time was nothing like the loving God religion of Christianity today. The big division in the known world back then was the status of Jesus. Jews reject the notion he was the Messiah. Muslims accept Jesus as one of the prophets but does not deify him. The Christians killed each other over the argument about Jesus being God or the Son of God. How people understood this stuff depended on what they already believed. And it is all built on false beliefs. Humanity did not begin in Paradice. A God didn't make humans out of mud. That is a plagiarized Sumerian story. Whatever, it is the same pot of religious stew and I can not think of any good reason for arguing it is not.

Those people who believe their holy book is not true do not count as believers anymore. Try some logic. — Nobeernolife

They do not believe the other people's holy book and are willing to kill them. When none of the God of Abraham religions are based on truth. They are based on the same mythical Sumerian story.

Reality check we evolved as all animals evolved.

What is that even supposed to mean? — Nobeernolife

Most industry is built on the autocratic model, right? I said Germany has more industry based on the democratic model than the US but are there some industries in the US that use the democratic model. God of Abraham religions support monarchies and autocracy, not democracy. When we replaced our education based on Greek and Roman classics, with education for a technological society with unknown values and left moral training to the church we got a nation that understands the Bible and not democracy.

I do recognized the power of positive thinking and bio feedback but that is it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yeah, and I just wish we all agreed that is why prayers work. It is not a special gift from Jesus. It doesn't matter what religion a person is practicing nor how God is understood. Prayers work the same for people of all religions. It is about self-talk and our physical response. Believing the pill will get desired effects can work even if the pill is a placebo, depending on the health problem. Placebos do not replace amputated legs. But if we pray to god for the desire to go swimming everyday, that is something Jesus can give us, and then we might avoid the amputated leg.

The way I understand the definitions, morals are the thinking part and ethics are the action part.

I share your wish that business and governments would be more democratic but they have a long way to go yet.

Christianity may work for millions, as you say, but it does not work to bring equality for all as they continue to preach their homophobic and misogynous teachings that victimises more millions than what it works for.

I think that the sooner we rid ourselves of the religions that are inferior in law to secular law, Christianity and Islam leading that list, the sooner all will have equality.

Regards — Gnostic Christian Bishop

:lol: You and I are having a very different conversation than everyone else. I prefer the conversation we are having.

Wanting knowledge is not wanting to be a god, but wanting to stay alive and to keep the people we care about alive. It is ridiculous to argue religion as though that was not true from our beginning. We did not begin in Paradise, but as animals trying to stay alive. Please, please can have a discussion that is based on reality?

So we have agreement that a moral is a matter of cause and effect? If it is good no harm is done. It is evil/bad, if harm is done. Now what we have to do is determine if harm is done or not. That is self-evident, isn't it? I mean deciding if it causes harm or does not cause harm depends on what is so, not on believing a myth.

Democracy is about arguing until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. Even after we have a consensus someone can have a new idea that proves we were wrong, and then we need to adjust to the new truth. This is what makes democracy radically different from religion. Like with religion, everyone can know without a doubt that the earth is round and not at all the center of the universe, and still argue the false stories are God's truth. That is a bit crazy, isn't it? I think I am getting a headache:lol:

We do have some democratic industry and Germany has more democratic industry than the US. While Japan has used Deming's model for industry since WWII and it has kicked our asses in competition for world markets. So it behooves us to learn of the Deming model and rethink our power as citizens in the US.

Apparently you never read the Koran and the Haddiths. Try that before posting more false statements. — Nobeernolife

Starting with the God of Abraham all the notions of God are false, so my dear, there is no god who hates people, there are only people who believe there is a god and that their holy book is the truth, and the other holy books are not true. Or people who share the same holy book and disagree with the other person's interpretation of the book. I do not have much patience for this.

That was an interesting read that held my attention. However, when I asked my question, I was not thinking of comparing human stories of the gods. My thinking was very simple. I don't think anyone today believes Zeus was a real god. Why should I believe the God of Abraham is a real God?

Or to make this a lot of fun, why would a human want to be a god?

At the end of day, there is only you or I to say what is important.
And we will do that or not. — Valentinus

What is important or what is true? In an extremely short time, say between Bacon and the present, we have we overcome the evils that took our children and kept our live expectancy down to less than 45 years and kept our economies in extreme poverty and ignorance. This awesome achievement was not the result of sacrificing animals, or praying to a god, or being faithful to a god. The question of this thread is our desire for knowledge good or sinful? What do you think, would you rather return to the Dark Ages when the only things to learn were a vocation and a religion? We are far more civil with our full bellies and securities than we were a few hundred years ago.

There is so much more than you and I and I think it is a mistake to stop there. This world pandemic could radically change our lives and bring in universal medicine and a greater consciousness and caring for everyone. Or, given today's March 21, 2020 Oregon Boarcasting shows about air force heroes, I suspect the US is preparing for a war and that could change our country more than any previous war. I think we better look for what is true, and take action, not what is important.

Jesus told the Pharicees they had the wrong concept of who God is. Do you understand what I am getting at. Typed from my phonE — christian2017

How is such a god who can be known different from Zeus?

Apparently you never read the Koran and the Haddiths. Try that before posting more false statements. — Nobeernolife

Same God for Jews, Christians and Muslims. It is not logical to believe one of these groups has the true god and the others do not because they do not. Only culturally are they different.

And what is your defense for being such an unpleasant person? Do you believe Jesus would speak as you do?

The way I understand the definitions, morals are the thinking part and ethics are the action part.

I share your wish that business and governments would be more democratic but they have a long way to go yet.

Christianity may work for millions, as you say, but it does not work to bring equality for all as they continue to preach their homophobic and misogynous teachings that victimises more millions than what it works for.

I think that the sooner we rid ourselves of the religions that are inferior in law to secular law, Christianity and Islam leading that list, the sooner all will have equality.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I must not have adequately explained why Christianity works. Christianity works and so do lucky rabbit's feet. I am speaking of the psychology of positive thinking and the psychology of moral stories no matter where the moral story comes from, folk tales or a holy book. It is not some mystical force involving a God that makes a difference, but believing in such a power can make a big difference. So can having a lucky rabbit's foot make a big difference. Believing the dead saints can protect you, works. So when Christians are absolutely sure from experience that prays, charms, sacrificing animals, works, yes, it works.

Speaking of religion and law, our Christian based correction system is a horror! It most certainly is not based on the science of human behavior and change. And neither is any decision regarding social problems based on the science when Christians are the majority. So the conservatives are not going to give us justice based on science and reasoning. Christian conservatives see fault in Muslim laws and Muslims find fault in Christian laws, and both of them are stuck in the past with a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God. Jesus is seen as a lucky rabbit foot, but not someone we should follow.
Jesus sure as blazes did not say go to college and have a career that will get you a lot of money and ignore the less fortunate because they get what they deserve.

Allah hates the followers of Yahweh. If Allah was Yaweh, that would mean he hates his own followers. Clearer now? — Nobeernolife

There is no God who hates people and Muslims took in Jewish refugees when Christians were prosecuting them. Now Zionism is a different thing. That has made enemies. I saw pictures of how badly Palestinians were treated by Israelis and I believe the bad guy in that region is the Zionist. For sure Israel is in violation of United Nations mandates. Before the Zionist Jews and Muslims were living in peace with each other.

The US is about to overtake Italy in new cases. Hunker down and don't take any chances. :pray: — Baden

Nice advice but many people are on the front line of this war, and they can not put themselves first. They are risking their lives for everyone they care for. I hope we become very aware of that and find some way to acknowledge them.

he Trump crisis playbook to date has involved bullying both political allies, to keep them in line, and potential opponents, to prevent them from talking. It has involved lying. It has involved the deflection of attention onto other matters. It has involved attacking the attackers, spinning conspiracy theories about and spawning investigations of the investigators. — Relativist

Trump and this pandemic are a lesson in tyranny. Obama put in place departments to handle a pandemic when Eboli was threatening everyone. Trump undid most of what Obama put in place. Trump has also removed everyone from office who did not kiss his ass, and put in their place people willing to kiss his ass if they have the merit to do the job or not. Now even if one of them has good judgment, they are all afraid to say anything to him that he might not like. The problem was the same for China when Chairman Mao was in power and people starved to death because of his ignorance and bad rule.

We have forgotten what science has to do with democracy, good moral judgment, and rule by reason. Christians tend to hold a different world view- dependent not on science and many minds working on resolving problems, but on pleasing God and this God, with the prayers of the people, making it possible for the ruler to work miracles. This has been so since the beginning of civilizations. Faith in the pharaoh, the king, the president, or whatever title you want to give the promised leader of the people. Hopefully, this unfortunate reality will be changed by what we are experiencing today.

Please, I know how bad an economic crash can be on the poor because I lived through very hard times that lasted many years, and when my children came of age we could not assimilate the young into jobs fast enough. I was risking my life donating plasma when I my weight was dangerously low, and hitchhiking to work when my car broke down. Economic crashes destroy people mentally, physically and spiritually. Economic crashes destroy people's chances for careers, and poverty in hard times is intense and not equal to poverty in normal times and Reagon slashed domestic budgets when people seriously needed help. I do not want to think about it.

If there is anything I can do I will, but my family is in danger and I am old and there are children involved. My daughter is a drug and alcohol rehab worker working with an at-risk population. My granddaughter with two children can not see her children because she works with the homeless and has been exposed. She has taken steps to give authority to a friend who cares for her children now and to have custody of them if she dies. We know hard times and suffering. I am working hard to keep my spirits up. There are no fathers to help with the children. Just the male friend who is being a superhero with his low income and very small apartment. The children like him very much, so we may get through okay, but I am scared. Not for my life but the people in my family and our future.

I was just doing cultural psychology (like Nietzsche or Freud). We can look at goodness as something reached for, something I want, or my society collectively wants. That implies that I can look at a society, discern what they hold to be good, and discover what they think they're missing: what they would have to have to become perfect, healed, satisfied, and complete.

If the Greeks held freedom as a high good, then why? What was threatening their freedom such that they needed to reach for it: to pursue it and protect it? Was it an external threat? Or was it internal? Was it internal, but seen as external?

That's the kind of question I take into studying history. It's fun. — frank

I love your questions. Should we address them here or in another thread?

I think I have already said the philosophers of Athens asked, how do the immortals resolve their differences? The answer was, they argue until they have a consensus on the best reasoning. When this reasoning is applied to government it is democracy.

I don't like the word freedom because that implies a lack of limits and that leads to big trouble! I prefer the words "liberty" and "justice" because they imply knowledge of desirable limits and avoiding trouble. Democracy needs to be a self-correcting system, and that is not what religion is.

Indeed, but look at what we have instead.

https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2 — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I don't dare spend too much time on youtube because if I use my information bites too fast I don't have internet for the rest of the month and right now I can not access any community computers.

However, I watched the first minute and will say we all have a lot to learn about economics. Even economic professors who teach a completely abstract concept of economies with zero understanding of what natural resources have to do with economics.

If we used the democratic model for industry all employees of an industry might care a lot about the resources their industry uses and where they come from because they share responsibility for the industry and caring for those resources politically could be very important.

The democratic model of industry distributes the income along the lines of the ideal in the youtube graph. It does not have outrageously paid CEO's.

And something we might consider is the importance of industry to our communities. When a community has strong industries, its income supports everyone in the community in the form of wages that in turn become property payments, and money for utilities, and services, retail businesses and all public needs. Texas can be so powerful because of oil revenue, paying for public services and education. Oregon's public needs were fund by timber revenues but has shifted to relying on tax money from citizens.

In general, I don't think we are thinking things through very well. That can bring even Rome down.

I am pretty ignorant of the Greek conflict with Persians. I only know the Greek point of view and a Persian informed me that I am not well informed. I am a little reluctant to talk about something I know almost nothing about. I don't know if we can the Persian point of view in the west? However, if you or anyone else wants to explore the question, I will pull out a book and see what I can learn.

What we'll learn is finally is to work from home and have net conferences. Talk about a truly collective learning experience.

Just think how many elementary and lower secondary school teachers everywhere have suddenly had to start using the internet to get to their pupils. For higher level education it isn't a great change, for lower levels it is. I have two children with one being a first grader and another a 6th grader and both are now living this eternal Sunday. Both of their class teachers were struggling to get the school work into net, but managed in couple of days to make it work. The frantic improvisation and their joy when getting their pupils online and working makes me smile. Yep, obviously no plans were made for this kind of event by the education system here, hence multitude of approaches by individual schools (which may be actually a good thing). Also, in country where home schooling is very rare, now something new.

The corona-virus is likely the best thing every to happen to the internet companies and service providers. It's so good for them that likely someone will come up with a conspiracy theory that Microsoft and Google were behind the outbreak in China. After all, even after some time has gone, the officials will still say "Use precaution" and "stay at home if you can". So how about that work that you can do from home? Any tin foil hats going with that one? — ssu

I would love to agree with you, but I have some concerns.

On-line school is not working at all for my family. Not all families value education. Not all families understand the importance of self-discipline and setting goals. Plenty of people are totally reactionary and everything revolves around their feelings. These folks can not be the parents children need in today's world. Our children need to be schools where there is a chance of a teacher and peers making a difference. Learning is very much about relationships, not just available facts presented in the right order. To clarify, I am concerned children will be doing as they please at the moment and that will not be studying, and their parents will not be able to get them to study. May parents don't even understand why all that school is necessary any way.

Working at home bites if the children are there. And again working is very much about relationships. I am afraid our technological society lacks awareness of how important our relationships are to being human and everything we do.

But given that we all live in oligarchies and do not have any working democracies in the world that I know of, does it matter what we think of democracy other than the facts that there are none? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yes, it does matter. Democracy is a way of life and government is only one aspect of that way of life. If we handle things democratically on the job and at home with our families, and in our communities, really depends on our understanding of democracy as a way of life.

I want everyone to think about Deming's democratic model for industry because autocratic industry has lead to autocratic families and that has made life pretty bad for many people. In the past, life was too hard for divorced women so few of them divorced. Today, women have a chance of supporting themselves and their children, so they dare to leave their husbands, but we should not exactly blame the husbands who had to tolerate being treated badly on the job. If we used the democratic model than workers would learn how to be better people and they would bring this home to their families and that would lead to stronger families and fewer social problems.

I said we have a moral problem and you said..

Individually, I disagree.

We have an ethical problem. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

We have a moral problem because we do not share agreement on the meaning of moral and this goes with our failure to understand democracy. A moral is a matter of cause and effect. We read moral stories to children, such as "The Little Red Hen" and at the end of the story, we asked what is the moral of that story. The answer always is a cause and effect. No one helped the Little Red Hen make the bread so she didn't share it. "The Engine that Could" made it over the hill because he didn't give up.
What makes Christianity work for millions of people is moral stories bring out the best in us. They help us understand a good way to respond to problems, and when this thinking becomes a habit more things seem to well for us. A Christian thanks God for the blessing. A secular person will realize the cause and effect.

That morality is essential on a national level. Democracy is about all of us working together for a better life that we all share. Without an understanding of democracy and morality, we don't know what we are doing and leave the decisions up to a leader. While good leadership and following a good leader are necessary in a democracy we retain responsibility and we are not like obedient children. The Bible without education for democracy tends to making adults like obedient children, and when these children are organized by Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens, the result is fascism. Who holds responsibility for national morality? I am kind of excited by the pandemic. We might learn to work together and make more moral decisions. Ignoring the health of others can come back and bite you. That is how morals work.

I have to add, being moral is not about pleasing a god and your own place in heaven. Being moral is about the whole nation and our children's future.

Banks in Ireland have agreed to give a three month mortgage holiday and evictions for non-payment of rent have been banned. Do that, U.S. — Baden

We should have done that during the housing crisis when bad banking regulations made victims of hard-working citizens. :rage:

I have hope that we will come out of this pandemic a better nation. We might be interring a new age that will better than our past.

Genesis is saying that defiance of the will of God was the original sin. It's granting that there is free will, but the highest good is to turn away from it. Eve's side story is a condemnation of curiosity.

So the story is an ultra-conservative warning against freedom and curiosity. If you consider the conditions of the early Iron Age in which it formed, it makes sense. — frank

That is an excellent post and triggers my memory of another story.

The Greek version makes more sense. Prometheus went against Zeus' will and gave man the technology of fire. Zeus was afraid once man had the technology of fire, he would learn all other technologies and rivel the gods. He couldn't return man to ignorance but he slowed them down. He created the first woman, Pandora, and gave her to the first man. Then he gave them a wedding gift. Prometheus warned the first man to not open the gift and the man told his wife not to open it, but she was curious and when she opened the gift, out flew all the miseries that slow down our progress, like the pandemic we have today.

For sure that is the story that is the true story because today we are technologically smart but lack the wisdom to use this technology without making things worse and possibly destroy life on this planet.

I've heard that some scholars interpret the knowledge in the story to mean "knowledge of everything". How is knowledge of everything "subject" to the distinction between good and evil, on your account? This sounds interesting. — Cabbage Farmer

Wikipedia explains that and the different perspectives, such as Augustine's explanation and the equivalent concept of good and evil being two sides of the same coin, in other ancient civilizations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil

The whole debate annoys me because if God wanted us to remain ignorant He could have designed our brains to be no different than the rest of the animals. God could have designed our brains to make it impossible for us to know things He doesn't want us to know and make it impossible for us to think about them. God could have designed us to mate for life like many birds have life long mates and that would save a lot of marriages. :lol:

Does a chimp know the difference between good and evil? Do humans behave like chimps? Do chimps think like humans? We are as God made us and we were not made of mud. :lol:

You put me in a difficult position. That is something my Muslim friends never did. I never felt I had to defend myself from their personal attacks. And the way you addressed Frank is shocking. If there is anything nice about you, it is not showing.

OK, I take your word for it.
However, as I said, this was a limited period in history, and it is finished.
But the figures pale in comparison to the Jihad, and the Jihad continues today.
So again, where do you get off comparing the two? — Nobeernolife

About comparing the God of Abraham religions- they all share the same God, and the same prophets up to Jesus. Jesus is part of the Islamic story but he is not deified. The basic religion is the same, only the cultures are different. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism and Islam is Arab.

It is hard for me to understand the Iranian interest in Islam considering the Prussians hated Arabs, and Prussian Zoroastrianism is mixed with Christianity as much as Hellenism. The Zoroastrian ruler of Prussia freed the Jews in Babylon and order that Prussia give them the money to rebuild their temple. I do not understand why they became Muslims? But I do know Christianity wiped out all the indigenous in their path and that originally it was Jews and only the Jews who were God's favorite people. I think if they had God's truth, it is wrong for Christians and Muslims to change the story and claim to be God's new favorite people.

The Christian Right totally supports the Military-Industrial Complex of the US so I don't see where they are different from Muslims in that way. And I know Muslims who more gentle and humble and opposed to arguments than most Christians. I think if we look at the whole of humanity humans are more alike than different.

Well, thank you for setting things straight. I am not that interested in the popes, so I will bow out. But when it comes to being our own god, I don't think that is what a person wants. That is a lot of responsibility and I think we avoid responsibility when we can. :lol: