Poor deluded them! Wait till they're offered only $100 per kidney. — Vera Mont

Well, that is a lot of money in some places, especially when there are immediate needs that can not be met without money. There was a time when I risked going into shock by wearing extra heavy clothing so I would weigh enough to "donate" plasma for a few bucks. I developed a sense of black humor during those hard times.

Black humor-a form of humor that regards human suffering as absurd rather than pitiable, or that considers human existence as ironic and pointless but somehow comic.

Balderdash! The overpopulation could easily be remedied - could have been, for decades now - if there wasn't more profit in keeping them barefoot and pregnant and dependent on the bosses. — Vera Mont

No balderdash. It doesn't matter what was possible many years ago, because the subject is present reality. The growing human population is destroying the planet no matter if this explosion of humanity is in a third country or a modern technological one. Yes, we should have put the brakes on many years, but we didn't, and like a car going 60 miles an hour can not immediately stop, neither can the momentum of population growth be immediately stopped. The ancients saw this day coming. If we think of life as fire, we see this fire will consume the earth, as the exponential growth of the human population, increased consumption of resources, and increased pollution destroy our planet and it could be too late to stop the destruction. At no other time in the history of our planet has the human problem been as bad as it is today.

hey give the foreign 'investors' free rein to plunder their nations' resources and the industrialists supply them weapons to keep the peons in check. — Vera Mont

Oh yeah, I know that story! I think the best way to understand it is through geologists.

Yipes! I am late. Sorry I must run!

All this is tied to capitalism and its own relentless internal logic. I do admire your perseverance and consistency, even as believe you misattribute the cause. — Vera Mont

:chin: What do you mean misattribute the cause?

:lol: I do at times wonder about my thoughts looping back to a beginning point again and again. This has been a super good morning with posts that push me to learn more. I think the subject of money is way different from the discussion I want to have, but I can also see the connection.

Money and time are relatively new concepts that rule our lives and such concepts rule our lives and shape our culture even though we understand very little about the concepts and how much power, like a god, they have over our lives. Today I learned of the goddesses Nisaba and Inanna evolving out of agrarian goddesses who in the beginning caused wheat to grow, and then a temple was built to hold the wheat and priests to distribute it. Especial Nisaba was credited with giving us writing and this system of growing wheat, storing it, and distributing it required record keeping, some math, and some writing. This morning could not have been better as I learn of the evolution of a monetary system and its connection to gods and goddesses, which is a cultural/spiritual matter.

Why does one need to acquire things? The earliest clothing was made by the wearer or a member of their community.
earliest writing appears on cave walls and roadside rocks, accessible to all. Could have just carried on in the same spirit of sharing. — Vera Mont

Not when needing to tribe with the tribe that is far away and has rocks that we want. To make that trade we need a concept of money.

Due to the complexities of ancient history (ancient civilizations developing at different paces and not keeping accurate records, or having their records destroyed), and because the ancient origins of economic systems precede written history, it has not been possible to trace the true origin of the invention of money. Further, evidence in the histories[4] supports the idea that money has taken two main forms, divided into the broad categories of money of account (debits and credits on ledgers) and money of exchange (tangible media of exchange made from clay, leather, paper, bamboo, metal, etc.). — wikipedia

I gave you money to buy land and you did not pay me back, so now you are my slave for seven years because in seven years all debts are forgiven, so sayth the Lord. Only if you are not one of us, you become my slave for life and the slave of my children if you should outlive me.

Or, we must pay tax on the land alone the Nile that we are given to use, so may we help build the pharaoh's pyramid and receive our daily allotment of bread and beer as we work off the taxes we owe?

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that an idea superior to money can't come along or that UBI isn't a good idea. However, neither would be possible without passing through a time period where humans developed the inter-subjective concept of money. — LuckyR

Wow, what an interesting subject! I am not sure that we are not already being forced into that. Jose Arguelles wrote of the collapse of our money system in his book The Mayan Factor- Path Beyond Technology and our money systems are struggling. Our money is no longer backed by gold and backing the value of money on oil and the productivity it makes possible, is not stable! If the world stopped trading oil in dollars, the value of the American dollar would collapse and that seems to be happening. I don't want to go too far into talk of money and what resources and military might have to do with the value of the dollar but the need to contemplate "a time period where humans developed the inter-subjective concept of money" is now.

For sure, if the value of the dollar collapses, everything else may seem unimportant.

Sure, blind alleys and paths that lead to destruction, have been and probably always will be, wandered down due to ignorance and fear and will continue to be taken by many. After 10,000 years of tears however, I hope each human generation can make better and better choices, faster and faster, before we make ourselves extinct, and this bit of the universe has to wait many many more millennia before evolution and natural selection, results in another permutation of sentient life, that might do better than the dinos, the early hominids or the humans did. — universeness

Oh my, that is a hard thing to think about. :heart: We are on a radically changing world with far more humans than there are resources. Around the world people flooding out of overpopulated countries with the hope of having a better life where capitalism is strong. I don't think they know about the human exploitation of capitalism. However, some of the most successful people came from overpopulated countries where competition for resources is very hard and human kindness is lacking. I am not sure that is what we want? :chin: I have an audio explanation of Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick- a curious mix of idealism and human exploitation. Please, come over and we can listen to it together and then talk about it. Would like some coffee or tea? how about finger sandwiches?

I sincerely wish we could all get together like the Athenians did and argue our different points of view and really get to know each other because the flavor of our relationships is so important to our understanding of each other. When I was young and struggling to feed my children, I thought it horribly wrong that we did not live with sharing as many primitives did. Humanity may not have survived if we did not have an instinct of caring for each other, but how did we make that work?

Since the days of Sumer there were stories of hard-working fathers and sons who expected to have everything without working for it. You make me so happy by causing me to think of such things. We so need to do this as the Athenians did. How do we have children we are proud of instead of brats like Nellie Oleson in Little House on the Parie of sulky Trump who always looks like he will throw a tantrum if he doesn't get his way? How do we prepare our children to be adults who help the tribe survive?

You may already be familiar with the content of the two videos below, filmed in Vancouver Canada and Kensington Philadelphia, only a few days ago! We both know there are many more examples all around this planet.
Good people like yourself, Vera Mont, and many many other people online, will never accept this f****** bullshit and that is where my strength and outrage finds help, maintenance and hope. — universeness

Thank you for spreading the awareness. Right now my sister is in a hotel with a dying man. She has put out a request for help paying for the hotel room. She would take him to a hospital but he refuses to go. This is not the first time she has stayed with a dying person,

For the last couple of years, my sister has cared for the homeless using her own money and getting money from others to cover the costs that are essential to survival. She has a Facebook page where she posts what she is dealing with and she has gotten criticism for posting some really awful things. She moved to Salem, our state capitol, so she could testify when the legislatures are dealing with a relevant problem.

My oldest Granddaughter manages a Saint Vincent de Paul campsite for homeless people. She got to this because her mother was an addict and they were homeless while I cared for her sister and brother and their father returned to prison for drugs and violence. Her mother (my daughter) is now a drug rehab. counselor and is saving lives.

I began advocating for the homeless when Reagan was president because I wanted to get homeless people out of my home. I dealt with many homeless teenagers when we were in a severe recession and when that recession ended and rentals suddenly cost a lot more, and the number of home people increased with mothers and children on the streets, I had to take action!

All of this is tied to oil and our national debt and a dramatic change in education and culture. If you all know at least enough to relate to what I am saying, I will be very thankful.

My sister confirmed I should speak with the judge, even though she pointed out that if I ignore the parking fines the city can not garnish his Social Security to pay them. We are fighting for awareness and justice. I am overwhelmed with a 5 day a week job and the extra load of dealing with the homeless problems. That is why I have not posted for a long time.

And what you described was not a leader; it is a sociopath. US media should have ignored him to death from the minute he announced his candidacy - he only does what he does for the attention; he's an addict. Instead, they're still featuring his ugly, stupid smirk every single day on my annoying pop-ups screen. I see nothing in PBS broadcasting - not news shows, not documentaries and not discussion or interview shows - that promote any such behaviour. But I used to see plenty of it on FUX, before we cancelled regular television. Now I don't hear the vitriol or the advertising.
Minor point of accuracy: Trump didn't raise an army. Trump can't hide a few dozen boxes of stolen documents - what makes you think he's competent to organize anything? The yahoos recruited over half a decade by Wallace, Goldwater, Gingrich et al, propagandized by Sinclair/Murdoch, armed to the teeth by the NRA lobby and empowered by the southern GOP election-fraud machine, were economically insecure, emotionally immature, chronically aggrieved and primed for someone to point them out a scapegoat and say "Throw your tantrum. I'll let you get away with it." That's all he did, and he's still trying to bribe them with the promise of pardons. The situation had been set up by the constitution, pushed to the back-burner and pulled to the front by various political factions as it served their interest from time to time. All trump did was plug into a ready-made slot at the moment their two biggest betes noires were looming on the horizon and then keep telling them what they wanted to hear. — Vera Mont

Yes, that is what happened, exactly as it happened when Hitler became popular. That is why I keep talking about education. The masses must be prepared for democracy with liberty and at the end of WWII for national defense reasons we replaced that education with education for technology. We adopted the German models of education for technology and their model for bureaucracy and slowly all our institutions are organized as the enemy of democracy and this results in reactionary politics and the big mess we are in now.

I hope before I die people understand what I am saying and organize for a return to democracy and also that demand we replace the autocratic model of Industry with a democratic model. There is hope if we have both education for democracy and democratic Institutions.

Leaders don't need "charisma", whatever that is; they need integrity, dedication, stamina and the good sense to surround themselves with knowledgeable advisors and competent administrators. — Vera Mont

Trump was elected and many believe he won the second election too. There is a real chance he will win the next election and this is so because of his charisma.

Charismatic authority is a concept of leadership developed by the German sociologist Max Weber. It involves a type of organization or a type of leadership in which authority derives from the charisma of the leader. This stands in contrast to two other types of authority: legal authority and traditional authority. — Wikipedia

Charisma is perhaps the most important thing for a candidate to have because it is what gets the votes.

By definition, the charismatic leadership style uses verbal and nonverbal communication to charm, influence, and persuade others to help them fulfill their mandate or see things as they do. This type of leader makes those around them believe that they can achieve any goal or milestone, even in the face of adversity. They do this by displaying a positive attitude, showing empathy, telling stories, using humor, reading people, and working a room. — Emily May

Trump did raise an army to storm the Capitol Building to take the presidency by force and they all wrongly believed without question that was the right thing to do. It was this Trump's behavior that has him on trial, not his words. He can legally lie all he wants but attempting to prevent Biden from taking office was not legal behavior and it blows me away that his followers do not see that and do not worry about what he does with power when he is in a position of great power. That is the power of charisma.

Of course, I haven't kept track of their doings. TBH, I haven't really paid much attention to the workings of our own public networks. There does tend to be an inflation of monetary reward in all aspects of show business, including sport-for-mass-audience, and it's unfortunate that public networks get caught up in it -- I suppose in part due to competition for talent with private enterprise.
Nevertheless, it's one our last hope for an informed voting public. — Vera Mont

Before we can have better reporting we must have a better-educated population, so that people don't follow people like Hitler and Trump. Education for technology, and replacing the Conceptual Method with the Behaviorist Method, leaves us vulnerable to Charismatic Leadership such as Hitler and Trump. It is lead to Hitler's popularity the same as it led to Trump's popularity.

In the US we do not have a good source of information because reporting is no longer about defending our country with the truth. We are now all about popularity and money. The values that support charismatic leaders. And we have a mass that will buy almost anything if everyone likes the product and they might miss the boat and not be able to buy the product next week. Wherever I see these sales tricks for hooking us emotionally, I stop reading or stop listening because it is not ethical to use tricks to increase sales and I don't do business with unethical people.

Publically owned TV seems to be doing better than privately owned stations but often they are too opinionated and one-sided and flat-out rude talking over the person they are interviewing.

Amen just translates to 'so be it,' theists have no ownership rights to such terms, that I recognise. — universeness

I am highly in favor of what you said. People who think only they know God's truth and stand in God's favor, are very offensive. Thinking a book and their interpretation of it is equal to having God's authority is just wrong!

This reads to me like Jordan Peterson talking about natural hierarchies.
The human race is not forced to accept the social consequences of following the path that natural hierarchies leads to. The kind of social positioning you are referring to, that ultimately leads to 'rule of the few' with some leader at the top supported by an elite, who control all the military assets, is a model we all know well and is why we are in the mess we are in.

Our desire to be accepted leads to good social behavior and those with the best social skills will be leaders.
— Athena
This methodology has failed miserably. We need to keep pursuing a better one.
Especially when 'best social skills,' commonly means 'best at fooling some of the people all of the time.'

The majority will be followers because they do not want the responsibility of leadership.
— Athena
The leaders/followers model is a failed model, we need something better.
Government of, for and by the people must become vocational and be rewarded by high esteem, role model status, positive historical legacy etc, rather that personal wealth, and power. — universeness

Well damn, you wrote exactly what is most on my mind, our relationship to authority. My homeless guy had his 3rd stroke and was found unconscious on the ground by his car. I have been overwhelmed feeling I need to visit him and take care of all his stuff. He was moved from the hospital to rehab and then moved to a long-term care facility about an hour away.

I could not move his car because of a mechanical problem so it was towed. Before it was towed I piled all his stuff in my living room. My actions resulted in a delay in towing his car away and that lead to repeatedly putting parking tickets on his car. I am horrified that I could immediately inform the powers that be that he had a stroke and could not communicate or get out of bed and that did nothing to stop the mechanical process issuing fines and taking the car. I feel like I have been caught up in this meat grinder that can not be shut off.

I intend to see a judge. I am pretty scared because I took the towing sticker off the window, delaying the tow. I wanted to bring the sticker inside so I could read it and learn what is the right way of handling this situation, but it came off in pieces that I couldn't read. That was after phone calls and going to a parking authority to explain he had a stroke. There is a huge breakdown in communication! I can not believe how mechanical the process is and that it cares nothing about the human being. I want to look the judge in the eye and ask him if it was understood the owner of the car could not possibly move his car because of a stroke. I want to say how challenging it was to get the information needed for better decision-making.

Everyone thinks I am wrong to do anything and that I should act cowardly and do nothing but stay out of the problem. But I am thinking if we do not hold this authority in check, we lose our liberty and that means we have fought every war nothing, and any acts of war we commit from here are wrong because we no longer have the personal power and liberty we once had. The authority above us in held in check and people who see this love Trump, but they do not see Trump is our Hitler, using our anger and fear to turn us against our government and put all the power in his hands and his hands only, just as Hitler did.

I really want to hear from others. Is a government a good government if ignores a man can do nothing to protect what is his because he had a stroke? The government not only towed the car away but it put fine after fine on the car. Isn't that equal to kicking a man when he is down?

It's very different indeed, as being able to take your basic means of survival for granted, does not give you the power and influence over others, and over what does and does not happen, that having excessive wealth can and usually does. — universeness

What fun would life be with no challenges? One of those challenges is social position. Social animals have social positioning. Some will have more power over others and some will have none. This includes all social animals not just humans and our economic system. Our desire to be accepted leads to good social behavior and those with the best social skills will be leaders. The majority will be followers because they do not want the responsibility of leadership. This consideration is crucial to our notions of culture and education.

I look around me and see people who do nothing but play computer games or watch TV and eat! They destroy their bodies and minds in their pursuit of happiness. I can not comprehend the possibility that humans will enjoy actualizing their potential if they get everything they need with no effort.

Having family and a job are important parts of our identity and structuring our lives. The homeless people with no social ties or responsibility and accountability to others, become as referral cats. They are not "civilized" and are likely to spend the rest of their lives alienated from their own society without serious intervention. I must say, I speak because I am not at peace with my thoughts. I am not sure of what I think, only of what I have seen. If we do not take great care, we have serious personal and social problems.

All the unanswered questions in the universe and the journey to discover who you are and what you want. — universeness

That is not natural for all people. Please come spend a day in my life. I am heartbroken by how my own family can totally miss any pleasure in learning. They are locked into helplessness and defend themselves by avoiding any challenge other than computer games. And all around me are people who do much other than watch TV. They like to socialize but all they about life is the own personal experience of it, so to me they are very boring! I would say most people avoid life as much as they can. They most certainly avoid thinking. No thinking = no doing.

I don't understand this mindset! What notion of success are you allowing to hold judgment over your life? Surely not the amassment of money and material goods. — universeness

I wish I had completed at least one book and then did a lecture tour to promote the ideas about democracy and education before my mind got so weak the effort is futile. :chin: It is interesting indeed to think of what I said here and then think about your question. I know a point in my life when I wish I had made a different decision. But now I can think of that with hindsight. I didn't know then what I know now.

Sounds to me that you know what your reasoning was, for not playing the money trick game, to buy cheap and sell dear, and become rich by doing so. Never forget the main problem the rich (especially the nefarious rich) have. If you can buy a Rolls Royce in the same way as an average person can buy a loaf of bread or a drink of water, then there is no joy, no satisfaction, no achievement whatsoever, in buying a Rolls Royce. This is why the rich get involved in weird shit, as they need to get involved in more and more extreme stuff, to feel anything. — universeness

I totally agree with you and the more I ponder what you say, the more I think I have a pretty darn good life. I remember fearing what wealth would do to me and I would again choose the life I have over having too much money. I love to think about how I would change my life if I won the lottery, but I am not sure if I would really enjoy that. It would mean taking on a whole lot of responsibility I don't have now and I suspect that would not be fun. Wow, I am so glad you replied and stirred all these thoughts. I am feeling happier and happier with the life I have right now.

We do whatever we can as individuals to help create a better world.
We speak out and vote against unfettered free market capitalism. We support ideas such as Universal Basic Income. We advocate nurturing people over profits. We fight for the basic means of survival to be accepted as a human right or else we declare our society, still, uncivilised. We support the removal of money as the main means of exchange from global humanity. We totally reject all forms of religious authority, for ever and ever, regardless of how convinced that woo woo is real, any individual or group is.
I could go on, but I wonder when you will finally accept that you have been, and continue to be, a 'successful' human being. Why don't you take that very very deep, very slow, inhalation and exhalation of breath, over and over again, that confirms your 'at f****** last, acceptance of you as a successful human.' It was NEVER about becoming one of the rich and powerful. The vast majority of them are, and always have been, and always will be, unsuccessful human beings imo. — universeness

On all those things I do not agree. I think a degree of incivility is desirable for the same reason too much wealth can destroy our enjoyment of life. If all the basic needs were met without a person making an effort, how would that be different from having too much wealth? What would motivate people to make an effort? This would really be disastrous if it killed industry because there was no way to measure success and reward those who took responsibility. Like I said, if I won the lottery I don't think I would want the responsibility of using that money to create and manage a town. What are you willing to do for no reward? Many jobs have an intrinsic value and many do not but they must be done.

I am trying to expand my great-grandson's life by increasing what he knows and helping him find his own interest and talents. That was the role of teachers played before IQ testing to identify those students best suited for higher education for military and industrial purposes. Today's education is producing products for industry and this leads to a mechanical society. Children who do not automatically follow this technological education agenda become excluded and part of the thrown-away population. It is a huge challenge to help a child discover his/her talents and interest and excite them about learning about the world instead of turning the child off. What do you think is the best way to motivate personal growth?

I should also mention that Pandit Nehru was probably a pantheist who perceived both positive and negative elements in religion. The following quotations from 'The Discovery of India' bespeak this:

"What the mysterious is I do not know. I do not call it God because God has come to mean much that I do not believe in. I find myself incapable of thinking of a deity or of any unknown supreme power in anthropomorphic terms, and the fact that many people think so is continually a source of surprise to me. Any idea of a personal God seems very odd to me. Intellectually, I can appreciate to some extent the conception of monism, and I have been attracted towards the Advaita (non-dualist) philosophy of the Vedanta, though I do not presume to understand it in all its depth and intricacy, and I realise that merely an intellectual appreciation of such matters does not carry one far. At the same time the Vedanta, as well as other similar approaches, rather frighten me with their vague, formless incursions into infinity. The diversity and fullness of nature stir me and produce a harmony of the spirit, and I can imagine myself feeling at home in the old Indian or Greek pagan and pantheistic atmosphere, but minus the conception of God or Gods that was attached to it." — Existential Hope

I read your words very slowly before selecting the Pandit Nehru quote to comment on. I think I need to read your thoughts again and ponder them because it is not possible to understand a different point of view with casual reading. I think I see an inseparable relationship between working with a collective consciousness and being tolerant of differences. This is delicious. I can not automatically hold those concepts and make them useful. I can only know there are different thoughts that influence our experience of life differently.

For the notion of religion being compatible with democracy, I can find words to express my thoughts on that. I love the line "I do not call it God because God has come to mean much that I do not believe in."

I am sure there was resistance to people having a personal God. It came with Judaism and speaking the name of God was forbidden along with making images of God. Christians deifying Jesus and turning him into a personal God is shocking! It is interesting Hindus have so many religious icons and so do Catholics but Muslims are sticklers about not making images of God. That is a curious cultural difference since images are a way of conveying concepts. The Greeks created Athena's temple with statues and pictures that conveyed the new democratic relationship of the gods. That is they used images to tell a story and Islam does not have pictures for knowing God.

I really do not know enough about these differences but when we come to collective thinking and accepting differences, I think the understanding of God is very important, and worshipping a God who is jealous, revengeful, punishing, and fearsome, is a long way from the collective consciousness. To pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done" is not exactly about being inclusive and tolerant.

In the US we are now struggling with accepting diversity. I suspect we are as far from the Hindu consciousness as people can get. Despite our idealistic claims of democracy, we have persecuted and killed people who are different. The history of Christianity is violent and bloody. It is democracy that gave us peace, not religion! But because the US stopped using education to transmit a culture, and left moral training to the Church, we are in a crisis that threatens the future of our democracy. And I sure would not want to be in a place like Afghanistan because of religious notions held to be true there.

For many years I was determined to write a book about democracy and education and I hit a roadblock when I had to address the Christian problem. It is so tied to our politics and so threatening at this time, we can not be passive about the relationship between religion and politics.

"I can imagine myself feeling at home in the old Indian or Greek pagan and pantheistic atmosphere, but minus the conception of God or Gods that was attached to it."[/quote]

If we see those gods as concepts we can appreciate their importance to democracy and civilization. But on an emotional level, I would love to have a time machine and travel to Egyptian and the building of the pyramids, and loving our pharaoh who is as a god on earth and to think of nothing but this loving relationship with the pharaoh and how I can serve him and the building of the pyramids. That relationship with the pharaoh is exactly like the relationship some Christians have with Jesus today. To experience that instead of all the responsibility that goes with living in a democracy, would be wonderful. It is not possible to have that relationship with Jesus or a pharaoh when we hold secular concepts of democracy and a sense of our civic duty that is so much more than periodically voting.

"Jawaharlal Nehru (/ˈneɪru/ or /ˈnɛru/;[1] Hindi: [ˈdʒəʋɑːɦəɾˈlɑːl ˈneːɦɾuː] (listen); juh-WAH-hurr-LAHL NE-hǝ-ROO; 14 November 1889 – 27 May 1964) was an Indian anti-colonial nationalist, secular humanist, social democrat,[2] and author who was a central figure in India during the middle third of the 20th century. Nehru was a principal leader of the Indian nationalist movement in the 1930s and 1940s. Upon India's independence in 1947, he became the first prime minister of India, serving for 16 years. Nehru promoted parliamentary democracy, secularism, and science and technology during the 1950s, powerfully influencing India's arc as a modern nation. In international affairs, he steered India clear of the two blocs of the Cold War. A well-regarded author, his books written in prison, such as Letters from a Father to His Daughter (1929), Glimpses of World History (1934), An Autobiography (1936), and The Discovery of India (1946), have been read around the world. The honorific Pandit has been commonly applied before his name." — Existential Hope

I would love to know the books he read because this explanation of him makes me think he was literate in Greek and understood the reasoning for democracy as it came out of Greek philosophy. I don't think religion is compatible with democracy. I think the religions have more agreements than disagreements, but their mythologies explaining human behavior are whacky. I like the notion of reincarnation and it might be part of reality but until we can test and validate that we should not be too sure of that possibility.

secularism emerged out of Protestantism — Existential Hope

I wonder how got Deepak got that idea. I would credit the Greek philosophers for secularism. It goes with deciding our health problems have physical causes and those problems are not caused by the gods. Socrates rejected the line of reason for atoms because that just didn't interest him, but in general back in the day, some of the Greeks were interested in physical reality, and not the gods. Socrates did take issue with some of the god stories that promoted bad values, such as adultery.

But Calvinism led to Puritans and then the Congregationalists and it strongly influences our materialism, work ethics, and economy. It is so different from collective reasoning because that line of reasoning is based on God's chosen few, not the whole of humanity. I can see where Deepak might take issue with that line of reasoning.

I have declared myself a democratic socialist and a secular humanist, consistently on TPF.
I value co-operation far far far more than I value competition.
My individuality is part of my identity, my socialism and humanism are my conclusions and my main/strongest drivers. — universeness

Oh my goodness but how do we survive in the US if we think like you? I am beating myself up for not being a more successful person. I didn't try hard enough, or was there value in being cooperative and not competitive? I remember the 1970 recession when it was extremely hard to get a job and it was demanded that we dress up our resumes and perhaps exaggerate our qualifications. I was a domestic woman and just could not become competitive in that way. Not even college cured me of being a domestic woman. I knew the tricks for selling things and I could have been rich but I had to take a low-paying in-home aide job that fit my values. I have read women tend to be more attracted to meaningful work, and we do it for intrinsic reasons, not the money. Doing something just for the money was so wrong! That is being part of the problem.

I am not sure I am wrong. Now teachers and nurses are paid a lot and they want more, and this makes education and health care unavoidable. Our equality with men means more women and children are involved in crime as both victims and the ones who commit the crimes. Our technological development is doing fine, but our civilization seems to be spinning out of control.

Talk to me. Where do we go from here?

. "Everyone" makes it transparent that we are, ultimately, not dealing with some monolithic organism, but people. We should respect the beauty of the diversity of the sentient experience without turning a blind eye to our deepest threads of unity. This would allow us to sincerely seek the truth as egotism and antagonism would give way to concern for the fellow being and a more profound comprehension of our shared existence. — Existential Hope

I am going to boldly risk looking a complete ass because the temporary pain of publically making a fool of myself is minor to what I can gain from someone with your understanding.

I have been helping a homeless man with severe brain damage and I am learning I am not the nice person I want to believe I am. Small things make me crazy like when he shakes the carton of almond milk, or I find a hair in the bathroom sink. I seriously need to live alone. He had a third stroke and this time he will be put a facility where he will get the care he needs. He may not stay. He may run but I don't think he will be physically capable of living on the street again.

This morning he had a procedure and after I waited an hour to see him, I was told he did not want to see me and I only thought of myself. :gasp: My reaction to being told I could not see him was too bad, but I wish I had immediately gone into reasoning and problem-solving with sensitivity to the possibility that he felt terrible because of the procedure and needed to be alone to heal and get past pain. Instead, I had a self-centered emotional reaction. I couldn't believe he didn't want to see me, the most important person in his life for the last 6 months :vomit: and I didn't trust the security guard and nurses, :worry: .
In my own head, I created a drama of everyone being against me. Fortunately, my paranoia lasted only a few minutes and it was in the privacy of my head, but it bothers me that I even had all these negative thoughts and so much ego tied into all this!

On the positive side, I see my wrong mental habit wrapped around my ego, and at this late date in my life, I know there is a better way. I have spent most of my life trying to understand how to be a better person and only in the last year have I met Asian people who have a totally different approach to life. I am thinking they are giving meaning to the reading I have done. Like I get it. But I am not there yet. Trying to understand a more Asian way of thinking is like going to a different planet.

Have I said anything that makes sense? I love what you said.

"as egotism and antagonism would give way to concern for the fellow" That is a new world.

Unfettered selfishness is undoubtedly a recipe for disaster. As someone from India (a society which is fairly collectivistic even now), I hope that we will find the apposite balance. — Existential Hope

You are from India? I have been so wanting an Indian point of view. In the US I don't think we have a collective awareness. We don't have a sense of how our lives impact everything and everyone. This is a disaster when dealing with a pandemic or global warming. :yikes: Democracy depends on the collective and serves all, but we think the US is democracy and don't know its origin or history and we are serving laize fair capitalism, not democracy. I see this as a huge problem.

Democracy depends on our ability to know truth and that sure isn't what is happening with those who deny the truth of pandemics and global warming. I fear we just do not loving the pursuit of truth as much as we should, and I think this is a problem with religion and education for technology. We have put our faith in a humanized god, not so different from Zues, and money, and technology, and our faith in humans has crashed.

His death served the personal purpose, causes and meaning he cherished most in his life imo. If your death can serve your life, then you die well, imo. It then becomes a legacy question for those who hear the 'true' story of your life, to agree or disagree that your death served your life. A suicide bomber may also think their death served their life and they died well, but we always have the counter point that one persons hero is another persons terrorist.

You have no way to measure the affect the legacy of Socrates had/has on any of the issues you mentioned above. The nature and spread and power of slavery, god worship, territorial war, imperialism, racism, sexism, ideological madness and even genocide, have all changed significantly since the days of Socrates. It's just as valid to credit all improvements made in those issues, directly to Socrates as it is to credit no aspect of improvements made whatsoever to Socrates. — universeness

Thank you. In the post above I explained the difference between individualism and being individualistic.
One puts the state first, and the other puts the individual first. Socrates put his values and the good of humanity above any self-centered concern. My sense of that is, feeling a part of something that is much bigger than one's self.

As for Socrates moving us away from superstition, this is like a particle of water in a flood. Individual particles of water are ineffective and large bodies of water can be life-giving or deadly. Conscious living begs us to be aware and make good choices and Socrates was most certainly part of this growing consciousness. He did not stand alone but was a part of debates and changing consciousness.

Yes, Buddhists do delve into the nature of desires. Whilst they mention the negatives, they also believe that we can transcend our problems (nirodha). Although perfect satisfaction may not be possible (in this existence), we can nevertheless continue trying to limit unnecessary needs (something that can be influenced by a shift in one's perspective). To the extent we do have them, it can be worthwhile to choose a path to happiness that isn't surface-level and that aids most people. — Existential Hope

I am trying to figure out how this can fit into a discussion of culture. For sure if we grow up in a Christian country we are apt to be Christian. If we grow up with Hinduism we will likely be Hindus and so on for the religions. They all aim at a better lives for individuals and the nation. And let me say, I am shocked by how materialistic the US has become. I just do not see that as compatible with the teaching of Jesus.

In my old grade school textbooks, some over 100 years old, the values are social harmony, conformity, and sharing. One way to achieve this is by paying taxes that can be used for national parks that everyone gets to use without charge. If we do happen to be rich, we are to share that with everyone. We should not envy the rich because money is not always a source of happiness and the rich girl may be very unhappy because of something sad in the family.

Older books for children focused on virtues and character and our report cards graded us on character traits. The priority of education back then was good citizenship and I was shocked when in high school I was to choose a career and being a homemaker was not one of the choices. My sister who was a couple of years younger grew up angry with our mother who always did women's work for low wages and her failure to go for the money. :gasp: Our culture has changed a lot in my lifetime.

Especially the book of the 1917 National Education Association Convention, contains lectures about how we must conserve and how our waste is shameful. Public schools were used to mobilize the US for WWI and WWII and did not have the mass production we have today. Women knit socks and scarves for the soldiers, and schools became civic centers for supporting the war effort in many ways. Everyone was part of something much bigger than themselves, and public education made this so.

I have been listening to a college lecture about Athens and the difference between individualism and individualistic. One is just being a unique individual enabled to self-actualize and make one's best contribution to society. It puts the city-state first, as in God, family, and country. The other puts self first and I am horrified by our changed reality that has taken being self-centered to an extreme. For me, the best explanation for this change is the change in public education and putting technology above humanism. That is a cultural issue.

It doesn't matter. Most of the suggestions and links I offered are not my own ideas anyway - they're out there in the webisphere for anyone to access.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/climate-change-denial-fossil-fuel-think-tank-sceptic-misinformation-1.5297236
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCKz8ykyI2E — Vera Mont

This is happening "An estimated four million people worldwide took part in the climate strikes on Sept. 20, which are part of a broader movement to raise awareness about carbon emissions. (Shutterstock / Ben Gingell)" That is positive, isn't it?

https://bravenewclimate.com/about/

This man is considered an authority and he is doing a lot with that authority.
"Barry is a leading environmental researcher, modeller, data analyst and author, in the fields of ecology, conservation biology, palaeoenvironmental reconstruction, and sustainable energy systems. He is a ARC Australian Laureate Professor at the University of Tasmania, where he holds the Chair of Environmental Sustainability. He has published five books, over 300 refereed scientific papers and is an ISI highly cited researcher."

https://www.ic.org/directory/communes/

That is a very nice list of communes and there are more communes. Thank goodness, because we might come to rely on what these people learn. I was inspired by the communal living in the 60s. I did not join a commune because that was not something that interested the person I married and I was still working with the 1950 values of family and owning a home. However, I wrote a few stories in the book "What Happened to the Hippies?" by Stewart L. Rogers. I enjoyed the creativity of the Hippy movement and paid attention to Buckminster Fuller and Alvin Toffler's Future Shock. Hum. I am thinking there is a lot we could be discussing if we shared the same books. That would be more interesting than insulting each other's character.

https://equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/the-spirit-level

The information in this one was not possible a hundred years ago and it will be interesting to see what happens when it spreads.

What you are interested in is not in there, because I simply don't believe your agenda is viable.

I think I have said you need to ask questions instead of jumping to conclusions about me. You have no idea what I know nor how I feel. Whatever is going on in your head it is not knowledge of me.

You either disregarded or strongly disagreed with them at the time, so there wouldn't be much point. — Vera Mont

Aw, come on. I may be in a better mood today. Today I may think your ideas are wonderful.

I would imagine that such a perfect state would simply not involve the desire for novel experiences, or it would somehow be fulfilled without significant effort (perhaps like a simulation). However, in this existence, new journeys will continue to await us. — Existential Hope

Doesn't Buddhaism address this?

The Four Noble Truths are a contingency plan for dealing with the suffering humanity faces -- suffering of a physical kind, or of a mental nature. The First Truth identifies the presence of suffering. The Second Truth, on the other hand, seeks to determine the cause of suffering. In Buddhism, desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering. By desire, Buddhists refer to craving pleasure, material goods, and immortality, all of which are wants that can never be satisfied. As a result, desiring them can only bring suffering. Ignorance, in comparison, relates to not seeing the world as it actually is. Without the capacity for mental concentration and insight, Buddhism explains, one's mind is left undeveloped, unable to grasp the true nature of things. Vices, such as greed, envy, hatred, and anger, derive from this ignorance.

https://www.pbs.org/edens/thailand/buddhism.htm

Can you imagine a consumer economy without desire? Isn't that also a matter of culture?

Absolutely true. It's my bad, negative, counterproductive attitude that's caused all the trouble in the world; the alternatives I've suggested count for naught. That's what they told me when I was Cassandra. If I could bear it through 81 lives, I guess one more incarnation won't hurt any more. — Vera Mont

Whoo, I unexpectedly had to replace my monitor. I am glad it was the monitor that went down and not the computer.

I think you made an overstatement about your negativity causing all the trouble in the world. And I am very sorry but I do not remember your solutions. If I were not working, I would go through all your posts, but considering my time is limited can you help me out by repeating your solutions?

My goodness I am flattered.

In the hot tub this morning I spoke with a very nice couple. The woman was confident about there being a heaven and it became evident she had not given much thought to what she believes. I mention this because you said

most of us do appear to require novel experiences that constitute an enduring chain of days of value — Existential Hope

. So when the woman spoke of heaven, I mentioned I think we all desire novel experiences and a sense that we are needed and our lives make a difference, but how does that work in a perfect heaven? I can not imagine enjoying life without a sense of being needed and that we can make a difference.

My friend who just had a stroke seems to be doing well lying in a bed watching TV but his brain is not fully active. Oh, who was it who said something about our laws would be different if we were different? Augustine? I mean, Eve never would have touched the forbidden fruit if she had a less active brain. A God could have programmed us like the rest of the animals, some that are mated for life. :lol: But some are naughty, like the squirrels that steal each other's nuts, and use decent to bury a nut so that another will not dig it up. God did not have to give us free will and I don't think heaven could be perfect if He did not take away our free will. What do you think? As long as we have free will, some of us will pay a quarter of million dollars to risk our lives. :starstruck: You can't have that happening in heaven. Once we get there aren't we immortal? That might take all the fun out of those mountain hikes where people die trying to get to the top. What do you think?

Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time. — universeness

What a wonderful suggestion! To evaluate which stories are helpful and why. The Greeks were concerned with individuals becoming the best they can be. This was not a government-enforced program and there were very serious debates about the good or bad of teaching people how to argue in such a way they win the argument, even if the idea they are pushing is very bad. Socrates would not have approved of the change in education, because Socrates was most concerned with morality, ethics, integrity, and the search for truth. You know, the culture that forms our thinking and actions.

And I think I best use the little free time I have this morning to reassure the man I have been helping that I do care about him. I hope there is not a feeding tube in his nose, but if that is what he must have, I am glad the medical people can make that decision and take the necessary action. It is so hard to see the tears in his eyes as he must go through this ordeal again. It is his 3rd stroke and I am afraid he will not regain the physical ability that is essential to living on the street. On the good side, I think this time he is going into a facility where he will get the help he needs, but maybe his free spirit would not find that tolerable. Ouch, this hurts. The decisions are not mine but what I say will affect outcomes. Any words of wisdom for this situation?

↪Vera Mont I understand. I was only trying to stress that ideas such as a legacy and a potent positive impact can be meaningful. The negatives may not have ceased, but we could have been in a much worse place if certain people had not acted in a particular way.

Yes, and the key word there is "necessarily". They could be better (and we often tend to think so), but the opposite is not out the question either. I do think that we can reasonably conclude that one outcome was better than another. For example, having studied India's past and its continual conquests as a result of internal conflicts, I find it improbable that further fragmentation (after the loss of countless innocent lives) would have been good for humanity as a whole.

It will see definitely continue, and the extent to which we are hampered will always be altered by factors that are both within and outside our control. — DA671

I want to support what you said about ideas having impacts on our lives and speaking of them one at a time is much more beneficial than ignoring the good because there is bad. And I am not sure if there is a better reality to be had?

I have no desire to have an eternal heaven of goodness. There would be no great novels and movies in such a reality. We would have no problems to resolve and our existence would be totally meaningless! The thrill of life is having problems to resolve and having a sense of meaning as we struggle to determine for ourselves what is a good idea and what is a bad one. Personally, I love Socrates' contribution to democracy and discussing the importance of education and exactly what should the young be educated about? What is culture about and how is it transmitted?

I would really like this thread to be about culture, not an argument against one person's negativity because at the moment I don't see any good coming out of that argument.

Yes - they influenced warring, racist, slave-owning, religious crusading, imperialistic, clergy- aristocracy- and banker-ridden, nationalistic, militaristic, plague-carrying, mass-murdering, European civilization, which they then forced on other peoples around the world. And that's a good thing? OK — Vera Mont

What I do not see as good is your attitude. "a settled way of thinking or feeling about someone or something, typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior." All the problems in the world are not correctly set on Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle because there are as many positives, so it is like arguing the cup is half full or half empty. All the good also comes from that past and our democracy is one of them. To be clear I am saying our democracy, liberty, and justice for all, comes from the past, but I do not like the militaristic decisions made since the end of WWII.

Really? Well, they sure got bigger in the ensuing 2000 years! What is the "before" you're comparing the "since" to? And how do you measure the contribution of Socrates vs the contribution of Paul of Tarsus - or all the other men who wrote down philosophies along the way? — Vera Mont

If I could, I would send you to 1400 Europe for a three-week vacation and then ask you if you think anything has improved. I am bored with the way you have lumped all the bad together and speak of it as though it were the only reality. This discussion of everything is a discussion of nothing. It is just two people being negative or positive and I have much more important things to do than continue such as argument.

Pessimists don't complain; they know it would be a waste of breath. They observe and comment and predict. — Vera Mont

They spread their attitude and nothing good can come from that. It just is not constructive.

Socrates didn't lead anybody anywhere. Some students in the distant future were influenced by ideas in their thinking. Not as many many as were influenced by Marx or Zoroaster, but some.
And then what? It did him no good. It didn't change the governance or future of Athens. It subtracted nothing from the worship of gods, which continues to this day and beyond. It didn't end slavery, halt religious conflict, prevent territorial wars, curtail imperialism, end racism, sexism, ideological madness or genocide. — Vera Mont

My goodness, Socrates has influenced western civilization for centuries. He was Plato's teacher and Plato was Aristotle's teacher, and I can not think of anyone who has influenced Western civilization more. These men have influenced much more of the world than Athens.

The Catholic church developed Scholasticism based on the teachings of Plato and Aristotle.

[qutoe]The Scholastic period
The period extending from the beginning of Christian speculation to the time of St. Augustine, inclusive, is known as the Patristic era in philosophy and theology. In general, that era inclined to Platonism and underestimated the importance of Aristotle. The Fathers strove to construct on Platonic principles a system of Christian philosophy. They brought reason to the aid of Revelation. They leaned, however, towards the doctrine of the mystics, and, in ultimate resort, relied more on spiritual intuition than on dialectical proof for the establishment and explanation of the highest truths of philosophy. Between the end of the Patristic era in the fifth century and the beginning of the Scholastic era in the ninth there intervene a number of intercalary thinkers, as they may be called, like Claudianus Mamertus, Boethius, Cassiodorus, St. Isidore of Seville, Venerable Bede etc., who helped to hand down to the new generation the traditions of the Patristic age and to continue into the Scholastic era the current of Platonism. With the Carolingian revival of learning in the ninth century began a period of educational activity which resulted in a new phase of Christian thought known as Scholasticism. The first masters of the schools in the ninth century Alcuin, Rabanus, etc., were not indeed, more original than Boethius or Cassiodorus; the first original thinker in the Scholastic era was John the Scot (see JOHN SCOTUS ERIUGENA). Nevertheless they inaugurated the Scholastic movement because they endeavoured to bring the Patristic (principally the Augustinian) tradition into touch with the new life of European Christianity. They did not abandon Platonism. They knew little of Aristotle except as a logician. But by the emphasis they laid on dialectical reasoning, they gave a new direction to Christian tradition in philosophy. In the curriculum of the schools in which they taught, philosophy was represented by dialectic. On the textbooks of dialectic which they used they wrote commentaries and glosses, into which, little by little, they admitted problems of psychology, metaphysics, cosmology, and ethics, so that the Scholastic movement as a whole may be said to have sprung from the discussions of the dialecticians. https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13548a.htm [/quote]

Eventually, Aristotle (inductive reasoning) became all-important, and then Bacon brought in deductive reasoning and there was a huge backlash against Aristotle and inductive reasoning. At this point in time begins the modern age and the development of science as we know it.

Are you sure you want to continue your argument? The HUGE problem today is Christians are so ignorant of the importance of these men and their understanding of God which is Platonist.

So do dogs and rivers! And your own resilience. — Vera Mont

:grin: :heart: Thank you. I wish I could have my own dog, but bending over to pick up what a dog leaves behind is too painful for me and I can not afford vet bills. But I just had to buy a stuffed puppy when I lost my dog. That was harder for me to get over than dealing with people leaving. That was a visceral experience that lasted for weeks. I had to have a friend walk with me in the parks where I had walked my dog because I didn't think I could bare being in the parks again. Thanks to that friend, I am enjoying the parks again.

Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time. — universeness

Thank you!

Read it now
The Aesop for Children interactive book is designed to be enjoyed by readers of any age. The book contains over 140 classic fables, accompanied by beautiful illustrations and interactive animations.

"Aesop's Fables"—also called "the Aesopica"—are a collection of stories designed to teach moral lessons credited to Aesop, a Greek slave and story-teller thought to have lived between 620 and 560 BCE.

Aesop's fables are some of the most well known in the world and have been translated in multiple languages and become popular in dozens of cultures through the course of five centuries. They have been told and retold in a variety of media, from oral tradition to written storybooks to stage, film and animated cartoon versions—even in architecture.

The fables remain a popular choice for moral education of children today. Younger scholars will be able to trace the origin of aphorisms such as "sour grapes" and "a bird in the hand." — Library of Congress

What I would like all citizens of the US to know is that these fables and fables from around the world have been used to teach morality since the beginning of secular public education. Originally our secular education was about transmitting a culture for a highly moral civilization and turning all our young into good citizens. Thoams Jefferson so such an education as vital to having a strong and united republic. This is the very reason I write. Christianity is no more compatible with democracy than Islam and the Koran. Both the Loran and the Bible originate updated versions of the Torah and these religions are divisive and favor a kingdom, not democracy. And education for technology is NOT education for good moral judgment and democracy.

Yes, indeed, there were, in the past, as now, many different people and if history had gone down differently, there would have been a different outcome.

. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one?
— Athena
No thanks!
The first one gets crucified and becomes a folk-hero; the next thousand are tortured and killed in creative and humiliating ways; another 10,000 are wounded on the barricades or jailed. Then the side either wins and puts up all new flags and statues or loses and sinks into oblivion.
Who wants to look up at a homely version of Queen Victoria in her declining years?

Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack?
— Athena

There are some things worth trying. Find a place - a park, a garden a balcony, even a favourite room, where you like everything your eye can possibly land on. If there are jarring or annoying bits, remove them or turn your back on them. Sit in comfortable chair with a soothing drink of choice, and just veg out. Let yourself drift for a while; don't think; don't try to process information; don't speculate or wonder. Just drift. Emotions come - don't try to analyze or resist them, just let them wash over you like waves. One passes on, another one comes to replace it, passes. They leave you tired and feeling empty. Then do a minimum of necessary chores and go to bed. Stay there as long as you need to.
When you get up again, cope with one thing at a time, until you feel in control again. — Vera Mont

Yipes your explanation of what happens to the good guy could be very depressing. However, there is an upside too. What is the saying, "A martyr is worth ten thousand of us." I often wonder if we would know of Socrates if he did not drink the hemlock instead of leaving Athens. To be known for centuries is a pretty big achievement and Socrates did lead us away from superstitious belief in the gods. Teachers impact the lives of many children and in some cases, the students impact the lives of others as the student goes on to do great things.

Sometimes we can have a strong influence on someone and not ever know it. There is another saying that when we meet someone, some of us goes with that person and we carry some of that person with us. We can see everything as interconnected and that our being could be more important than we will ever know. Like, our disagreement is equal to saying the glass is half empty or the glass is half full. Both are a reality.

About handling negative feelings I must find the energy to walk along the river. Another guy I help, would love it if I took him and his dog to the river path. I use a walker on the paths so I can sit wherever the view of the river is pleasing and wait for my friend with the dog to catch up with me. I am getting a deeper sense of why some Greeks argued that beauty and good music are important. Both are a part of good maintenance. So is reaching out to others. I feel supported by both of you and that helps a lot.

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!
2 hours ago — universeness

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!
2 hours ago — universeness

Thank you. I seriously need to find some way to get my forest mural on the wall. My apartment has paint that will not stick to the alien tape and the wall is too hard to put thumbtacks in it. But I think your suggestion of looking into a picture is excellent. My favorite place of beauty is along a river and in the forest.

Actually, a good night's sleep has done wonders and somehow I have to get his car windows up so the rain doesn't get in his car and also so I can lock his car before someone steals his stuff. Having something concrete to do helps. And my self-defense has kicked in with a sense of denial. We will see how my body reacts when I visit him this morning. I pick a great-grandson later this morning, for his special day with me, so I can not get upset. The child needs a positive influence. I need to keep moving forward.

Reading we are not responsible for what happens is helpful. I will work on that and I may actually walk by the river while I meditate on that point. Thank you.

Hey, folks. This morning the guy I was helping was found unconscious in the road by his car. The ambulance has taken him away and I don't know what happened or will happen next. I expect it was another stroke. If he survives I hope he will be given a place to live where people are paid to help him. Right now I am finding it extremely difficult to focus and process thoughts. I think I will rest and try participating in the forum this afternoon. Right now, I am wondering what the F? I did not expect to have emotions that make my brain feel like scrambled eggs. Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack?

Well, then the conquest, the colonizing, the land-grabs, the land grants, the settlement, that whole big 'civilizing the wilderness' process couldn't have happened, could it? — Vera Mont

My reasoning involves an explanation of East India and Hinduism as well as some knowledge of the 6 Nations of the Iroquois The Hindu story begins with a violent war and comes to an agreement about having peace. I am not sure, but the agreement to have peace seems to rule, however, Muslims have forced war on them in some areas. And the British occupation led to violence.

According to their founding tradition, the Peacemaker story, these Iroquois peoples—who had warred with each other for decades—came together between 1570 and 1600 to live in peace and harmony after Hiawatha, a mourning Onondaga, joined the itinerant Peacemaker (Dekanawidah) in pursuing unity among the Iroquois. The resulting confederacy, whose governing Great Council of 50 peace chiefs, or sachems (hodiyahnehsonh), still meets in a longhouse, is made up of six nations: the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora. — Jeff Wallenfeldt

My conclusion is it is possible for people to live for peace and to benefit from forming unity. Each tribe would have sovereignty as the United States are supposed to have sovereignty. However, the warring Europeans have a different cultural motivation that I think is worth studying, and that all these groups of people need to be taken into consideration when discussing human nature. A continental civilization ruled primarily by those who have a spiritual relationship with the earth could have occurred. However, such a civilization may not develop technologically.

Who's "we"? — Vera Mont

Whoever wants to join us.

This is the question I keep coming back to. I don't think the US has any coherent collective; — Vera Mont

Would you please include those knowledgeable of Greek and Roman classics in the discussion of coherent collective? Preferably everyone who becomes one of us will be at least a little familiar with our history and cross-cultural studies or is at least willing to learn. If thinking stops with people only knowing their own life experiences that is not going to be helpful.

Can you look around at your fellow citizens and answer those questions? — Vera Mont

I think the answer is education and some awesome information is coming to us in the form of movies and documentaries. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one?

I can't. Not about Canada and not about any modern federation. Even the organic European nations, like Denmark, have lost their monoethnicity and divided on key issues. — Vera Mont

Guaranteed things will keep changing. Civilizations tend to swing. When things get bad enough they swing in the opposite direction. But do all of your concerns really matter? The only one you control is you. In the 1960's we said, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". We can either devote ourselves to being part of the solution, or we can be part of the problem.

That's okay, I have things to do, too. We finally liberated that kitten from behind my bed and I have to clean the room and move the furniture back. — Vera Mont

:love: Good for you. You turned something bad into something good. Enjoy your freshly cleaned room.

Had to be done? Really? — Vera Mont

I wish you would join a philosophy group I am in, so we can talk face-to-face. I think the eye ball to eye contact would improve understanding.

About the US spreading from coast to coast. First off I wish the Native Americans had been able to hold their own ground, and that they had retained the governing power. Imagine if the Native Americans had the ruling power and the Europeans had to drop their baggage instead of repeating here the destructive ways of the countries they came from. My thoughts on this go with my strong desire for the US to have psychoanalysis. We need to explore that old baggage and the alternatives.

When I said the people of the US had to establish their civilization where there was wilderness, I did not mean this was a God-given mandate. I meant before they could do anything else, they had to turn the wilderness into the civilization we have today. Now that work is done, we can move on to rethinking everything and making necessary changes. Like take another look at the Native Americans and pick up some of their better ideas, like taking care of the environment is important! Their federation has benefits over European kingdoms. Like if you consider I may be on the same side of the arguments as you are, you may interpret what I am saying as I mean what I am saying, instead of imagining I oppose what you think.

Damn, excuse my pagan expression, but the timer says I am out of time and I must run. What a wonderful discussion we are having. I hate to leave.

Why, thank you! In 20 years I shall be 96 years and three weeks old. I just hope my arthritis doesn't get too much worse. But I guess my computer will work on thought control, or I'll have a support robot... — Vera Mont

So for how long have you engaged with others and how have you prepared to be a knowledgeable person? I think my ability has improved greatly in the last ten years thanks to the internet. And I love the college lectures provided by the Great Courses. For me, it is all like being in college but easier because I can do it at my time and at home. The forums are like gathering with other students to have a better understanding of what we want to learn and how we understand reality.

In the US the government owns and controls very little.
— Athena
time for some serious homework! — Vera Mont

Is that a hint? It is not a factual statement that contributes to the discussion.

... owned, occupied, hunted and revered by about 200 nations you choose not to acknowledge.... — Vera Mont

What are you talking about? What countries do I fail to acknowledge and what should that acknowledgment be? What do those countries have to do with the very rapid change of a wilderness to overpopulated cities and seriously depleted resources?

but there are alternative distributions of land, property, usage.... — Vera Mont

Please give examples of those alternatives.

That's not it. I think you need a different perspective on the problem. — Vera Mont

Okay and where does the different perspective come from? History books? Life experience? Can you be more clear about what you are talking about?

Family isn't 'about' something, any more than life is. Family is part of life, of the organization of social animals. Among modern humans, it can be the stuff of nightmares - or a warm support-structure. I guess in complex civilizations, it's more often nightmarish than in primitive ones because everything is so much more complicated and stressful. But mostly because the men are abused and emotionally crippled by the system, so they turn around and abuse whoever can't fight back. — Vera Mont

This is one of the main reasons I keep harping about Deming's democratic model for industry. In the US, our industry is modeled after England's autocratic industry, and we still use the word "landlord". The history of landlords is very ugly and so the history of the industrialization of England very ugly! Now this is about culture. I think we need to know our history to be sane about our reality.

The US democracy came with a lot of baggage and the first thing that had to be done was spread over a wilderness an establish a civilization. Just a child can not be a grownup from the day of birth, neither can a civilization be fully developed in the beginning. Being totally negative about our history is not helpful. Today we are a lot closer to being able to achieve our human potential than we were two hundred years ago. But now we need to analyze that history and our ideas of democracy and what the best society looks like and then plan how to make that transition. Replacing the autocratic model of industry with Deming's model and returning education to for democracy, might resolve many problems, including having happier and healthier families.

No, I'm describing governance in any form. — Vera Mont

At breakfast this morning the gentleman I sat next to gave me explanations of the different forms of government and they are very different. Socialism is kind of a hybrid between Laize Faire capitalism and communism. A communist country can have a lot of voting but the citizens still have little power because what they vote on is not the important decisions. The communist form of government owns and controls all resources.

In the US the government owns and controls very little. So we have problems that can't be solved. For example, the cost of housing is so high a private party can not afford to build and then sell or rent housing to low-income people at a price the people can afford. Only the government has the resources for building truly affordable housing but our capitalist system prevents that from happening. We have this problem because our reality has changed and people don't like change, so they resist change. No one is going to go west and homestead, or buy cheap land, because it is not available.

In one hundred years we have gone from an empty frontier to cities having no available land from industries and housing, forcing the cities to use the land that does become available for apartments. Gone are the days of building neighborhoods filled with three-bedroom homes with large front and back yards. Maybe one block will become available by tearing down the old buildings, so the multi-story apartment can be built. But it can not be built cheaply enough to be affordable to low-income people. Our reality has changed but not our mindset.

How do you think we should manage our changed reality?

Another change is people are living twice as long and the population of old people is huge and growing! What happens to them when they can no longer care for themselves? Should this be a social concern or strictly a private concern?

About the family order. What do you think family is about? I have a 1941 Family Law book that details who is responsible for whom and what the penalties are for people who do not fulfill their family duty. Back in the day, no one got government help. It just was not available. We got Social Security during the Depression so old people could retire and open up a job for the young. There was no food, medical, or housing assistance. Germany had a national retirement plan, worker's compensation, and a national medical plan long before the US. As I said, these government programs were impossible before we adopted the German model of bureaucracy. In the US the government was too weak and incapable of providing people assistance. What do think family order has to do with such matters?

By the way, I think you are doing an amazing job of managing these arguments for a young person. In another 20 years of arguing you will be awesome.

So what? That doesn't make any difference to their similar bureaucratic support structure. — Vera Mont

Oh, my dear. You made me aware of the possible value of a high school class that is about the different bureaucratic organizations and what makes each governing different. Thank you I need to work on that. Isn't it crazy we commit acts of war on people knowing nothing about how they are organized or if a problem can be resolved in another way besides war? We do commit economic warfare. That began when the Church was struggling to control everyone and what each person thought, and disemboweling or burning those who held different ideas.

Hope to get back to you. got to run.

I broadly agree with the content of your statement above, but the term 'family order' can be problematic in the variations it can manifest.
In my world, I would not allow a single tier of government to have full control over the military or the police. I would have a second, as powerful, elected tier of stakeholder representatives. Citizens, who represented all major worker groups, age and gender based reps also, etc. This citizens house, would have to agree to any war declaration or invasion of another nation, that the government of the day proposed.
The government would have full control over all forces in the case of an outside attack on the nation.
New ways to wield political authority must be found. I would also get rid of party politics.
We must vote for people not political parties. — universeness

Once again we have a lot of agreement. One way a citizen can have a say in local policy is to join a committee. Such committee work gave me more power to affect decisions than anything else I have done, including speaking at public hearings. What we have works pretty well but many people are unaware of all the points of influencing policy.

It takes a lot of dedication if a person is serious about supporting a law of changing the organization of a bureaucratic department. This can involve doing things to attract reporters and make the public aware of the need for change. Joining together with like-minded and having a convention in a large hotel. Going in groups to speak with representatives, writing letters, and bringing in already established organizations. All this takes a lot of time, energy, and money and because people's ego's get in the way, there needs to be a strong leader to get everyone working together instead of against each other. I have found most people never attend public hearings or write letters and really don't know what to do except vote when voting time comes. This is generally not someone with children, nor someone so old the energy just isn't there.

High schools should have a class on government organization and how to participate in government and we should advance public speaking as much we pay attention to foot ball! :rage: Schools budget time and effort for ball games, but not public speaking and civics. Not the classes that would empower the young. And now my dear, I am back to the cultural problem. I hope you see it.