• Ukraine Crisis
    Seems unexpected to me.

    fq043txvz9gwup0f.png

    Russian soldiers appear to be dying in Ukraine at a remarkably high rate
    Casualties in the early weeks far exceed the tolls in other recent conflicts
    The Economist; Mar 17, 2022
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↑ A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries in which countries it would be socially unacceptable to say they don't want people of another race as neighbours (The Washington Post; May 15, 2013) — Isaac

    Revision 2:

    Heatmap of countries where people pick different races as people they don't want as neighbors (The Washington Post; May 15, 2013)

    Does that work? :D
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Nazi (and similar) creeps are a concern everywhere.
    Where things get worse is when they attain political power.
    In some places they hide more due to legislation, in other places not so much.

    • List of neo-Nazi organizations
    • Racism by country
    • List of white nationalist organizations
    • Geography of antisemitism

    mkk0v3rxw9a4kp73.jpg

    ↑ A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries (The Washington Post; May 15, 2013)

    That's not to say that "two wrongs make a right", though.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    NATO, EU, US, Russia, China, ..., what about the Ukrainians? They're the ones getting bombed, not NATO, EU, US, China, or Russia; rather, the bombing + invasion is on Russia's hands.
    Putin demanded they don't become a NATO member, which they've come to terms with (big sigh on their behalf goes here :smile:).
    If they want closer trade with, say, Hungary, Germany, Austria, then what of it? Why not? It's a way to prosper.
    Seems less likely that the Ukrainians are inclined to look to Russia now.
    Putin vetoed Donbas UN peacekeepers out like it was just up to him. He's also brought up appeal to morals (even if bullshitting), not quite unheard of.

    More "propaganda":

  • Ukraine Crisis
    Can you imagine if even a fraction of this - totally symbolic, completely useless - self-satisfied wank was applied even for a moment to American crimes or infinitely greater magnitute? — StreetlightX

    Americans? They instead get impeached over blowjobs. :D
  • Ukraine Crisis
    We [...] unity. — Vladimir Putin

    :vomit:

    Demands ✓
    Responses ✓
    Meet ?
    Bombs :fire: ✓ ↻

    Were the demands always bullshit?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Some people are going for a trial thing ...

    • Statement calling for the creation of a Special Tribunal for the punishment of the crime of aggression against Ukraine
    • ICC prosecutor launches Ukraine war crimes investigation (AP)
    • Ukraine calls for Nuremberg-style tribunal to judge Vladimir Putin (Politico)
    • Why we need a new Nuremberg trial to make Putin pay (Daily Mail)
    • Putin’s use of military force is a crime of aggression (Financial Times)

    I'm guessing, at best, Putin will just have fewer viable travel destinations.
  • Rasmussen’s Paradox that Nothing Exists
    The hidden bit in the logic is that explanations are "another thing outside the thing". — apokrisis

    Yeah, so we actually have:

    1. anything must have some other explanation
    2. reality in total cannot have another explanation

    I'm not sure what could be self-explanatory here.
    General necessities are hard to come by; self-consistency might be a candidate, then again that just seems like us imposing so we can make sense of things, don't think there's any guarantee of that.
  • The Invalidity of Atheism
    Do you really belief laws of nature and the basic stuff in it are clever enough to create themself? — EugeneW

    Create themselves? :brow:
    What does that have to do with anything anyway?

    If atheism were valid, atheists would not be able to open their mouths. They would have nothing to talk about. Atheism is in being a-theistic making them a-theists.
    [...]
    Anyhow, why should we listen to those who reject a God (a relatively simple addon) but then continue to believe in mermaids, unicorns etc.
    Atheism is a rejection of free-speech (primarily another element of the Left).     — Gregory A

    Seems the thread has veered off the opening post, and become a gallery for bloviating the usual old apologist arguments.
  • The Invalidity of Atheism
    For most practical purposes, i.e. actual:

    a·the·ism (noun)
    • disregard/dismissal of what theists have failed to prove in the first place
    • absence of theism or doubt/disbelief therein, hence the leading 'a'

    Terms like antitheism, atheism, igtheism, misotheism, etc, are derived from theism, and theism can mean a few things. Diverse, fantastic, narrated (pseudo-historicized) characters, that supposedly intervene/participate/meddle in human affairs, and adherents go by whatever commands/rules, rituals, fate designations, ... Taking those stories to be literal history converges on fundamentalism. Does anyone seriously believe that a preacher in Middle Eastern antiquity supernaturally fed 5000-9000 people (in 2 rounds) with a handful of food...?
  • The Invalidity of Atheism
    It would seem the same applies to, say, anyone that disregards/dismisses ancient astronaut theories. :D

    Good grief.

    Suggested title of new post: "The Invalidity of A-Ancient-Astronautism"
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Cyber-activists/criminals hit war-activists/criminals ...

    Anonymous declared a ‘cyber war’ against Russia. Here are the results (Mar 16, 2022)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Mar 16, 2022:

    • Deepfake Zelenskyy surrender video is the 'first intentionally used' in Ukraine war
    • Meta takes down deepfake of Ukraine’s President Zelensky surrendering
    • Russian War Report: Hacked news program and deepfake video spread false Zelenskyy claims ← and Zelenskyy responds
    • Deepfake video of Zelenskyy could be 'tip of the iceberg' in info war, experts warn

    ↑ Busted.

    What should be noted, and is nearly not mentioned, is the Ukrainian side. Although they have made counterattacks, these have been small. And naturally they too have had serious losses. What is really lacking is that Ukraine would make larger counterattacks and surround larger Russian units and [...] — ssu

    Yeah, and Russian free rein in the Ukrainian sky, eyes and bombers, makes it difficult.

    ↪Book273
    , what you don't know can still kill you. But never-you-mind.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    If Putin doesn't start talking soon, then we might as well admit it: Putin just started bombing the $#!† out of another country and handed over a bunch of not-quite-genuine demands, with the world watching. :D


  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Isaac
    , again,

    Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.

    And it now seems off the table anyway — Putin's demand met. ✓ No Ukraine NATO membership.

    ↪boethius
    , the Nazi thing wasn't in Putin's demands (other than used as a pretext/excuse perhaps). Either way, UN peacekeepers ain't up to him to decide, as he apparently thinks, only to go in with his bombs blazing instead.

    By intensity of hatred, nations create in themselves the characters they imagine in their enemies. Hence it is that all passionate conflicts result in the interchange of characteristics. — George William Russell
    Don't become what you hate. — Akiroq Brost

    Concessions given. Time for Putin to stand down, or at least chill out and head to the talking table? One could hope.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Russians have now launched nearly 810 missiles against Ukraine -- almost half have been fired from within Ukraine using mobile platforms. The rest have been fired from Russia, Belarus, and a small number from the Black Sea. This is up from an estimate of 775 missiles offered by the official Thursday. — Ukraine using drones to 'great effect' on Russian forces: Pentagon updates (ABC News • Mar 11, 2022)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Isaac
    , as the case may be, you don't get to decide if someone invades you or not, they do, and, as the case may be, you don't get to decide if they have a bunch of TOS-1s Su-34s ☢s or not, they do.
    You might get to decide whether to do something or not.
    An excellent opportunity for Machiavellian evil capitalists, wouldn't you say?
    I suppose you might scrap it all and hope for the best.
    Or, do you think everyone agrees to scrap it all? ☮
  • Coronavirus
    Analysis: Future infectious diseases: Recent history shows we can never again be complacent about pathogens (Mar 2, 2022)

    Either learn better to avoid, or learn to suffer better?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    IMF managing director expects "deep recession" in Russia (Mar 13, 2022)

    That effective?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Yep, and Elvis is still alive too apparently — Isaac

    Try throwing rocks and swear words at ... Defense industry of Russia (Wikipedia), Russia and weapons of mass destruction (Wikipedia), Infographic: Which countries buy the most Russian weapons? (Al Jazeera; Mar 9, 2022), Rosoboronexport (has a number of Putin quotes towards the bottom by the way), ... :D The invader has taken an initiative. Words/rocks ... no difference.

    Europe and the US are aiding Ukraine alright — Olivier5

    Right, Ukraine seems to have overwhelming support faced with the invasion, as well they should (nations, organizations, smaller groups), almost from day 1. Russia doesn't, as well they shouldn't.

    Quote spam ...
    The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. — Plato (-429 — -347)
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. — sometimes attributed to Edmund Burke (1729 — 1797)
    Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. — John Stuart Mill (1806 — 1873)
    Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. — Elie Wiesel (1928 — 2016)

    The Russians have free rein in Ukrainian airspace to monitor and bomb. (Including bomb civilian areas; must be kind of "boring" for the pilots?) Maybe that's all the advantage they need.

    I don't trust the Western narrative and won't unless it's corroborated by different sources and that generally takes a few months to clear up, considering how often we've been lied to. If I see Russians firing at a flat, then I'm wondering whether they were fired upon from that position and we've just not been shown that. I have no way of knowing but I do know we get maybe 5% of what's actually going on. — Benkei

    At least Putin's demands don't seem like fake news. No NATO membership for Ukraine, ... It's something to take to the talking table.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    (dupe, see subsequent comment)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/03/exclusive-kremlin-putin-russia-ukraine-war-memo-tucker-carlson-fox/ — Wayfarer

    Just saw this, also on Mother Jones:

    Report: Putin Threatened to Arrest Google Exec Over Pro-Democracy App (Mar 12, 2022)

    It's a trend.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Isaac
    :

    Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.

    Invaders set the tempo. They do as they please, or they're stopped. Maybe you hope they'll stop by themselves, just a bit of collateral damage?

    let's have a fucking World War — Isaac

    No, let's not. (You can stop drooling now. :smile:)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Nor Zelenskky. — FreeEmotion

    According to rumors on the street, a couple Ukrainian mayors have already been napped and replaced by Russian puppets. If not for numerous onlookers and potential outrage/martyrdom, I'm guessing Zelenskyy would have been in constant mortal danger. He might still be, though, to some extent; sure ain't far-fetched.

    On another note, if China gets involved by aiding Russia, then why not Europe, NATO, ...? Otherwise, it seems like another descent into Rule of the bully. Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Slippery slopes?
    Andreas Georgiou writes: Ukraine Invasion: A Dress Rehearsal for More of the Same Around the Globe
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Joining NATO to be taken as a separate discussion and agreement. — FreeEmotion

    It seems to violate Putin's vision (not his eyes) and likely the same for some old-school Russians. But, hey, if they're genuinely scared of NATO, then OK, a concession, to reach a more stable (perhaps even prosperous) situation...?

    An amendment? (peacekeepers = :up:)

    • Russia ends its military presence in Ukraine, including Ukrainian airspace
    • Ukraine cease military action against Russians in Ukraine
    • the Ukrainian constitution grants the Russian parliament veto right regarding Ukraine becoming a NATO member
    • Ukraine does not invade Russia or let other nations invade Russia via Ukraine
    • Ukraine agrees to UN peacekeepers
    • if Russia insists on an investigation into bio-facilities in Ukraine, then the same is to take place in Russia (perhaps under WHO/UN supervision)
    • Russia recognizes Ukraine as a sovereign state
    • Russia rebuilds (or pays for rebuilding) what they ruined in Ukraine, Russia returns (or pays for) what they took from Ukrainians

    The victims of the invasion/bombings are still the Ukrainians on the ground, not Putin or his Kremlin generals, or other Muscovites.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    So, going by Reuters, the deal the Kremlin offers is something like ...

    • Russia halts military operations in Ukraine
    • Ukraine cease military action against Russians in Ukraine
    • Ukraine change its constitution to enshrine neutrality
    • Ukraine acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory
    • Ukraine recognize the separatist republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states

    How about this instead?

    • Russia ends their military presence in Ukraine
    • Ukraine grants the Russian parliament veto right on Ukraine becoming a NATO member
    • Ukraine does not invade Russia or let other nations invade Russia via Ukraine
    • Russia recognizes Ukraine as an independent state
    • Russia rebuilds (or pays for rebuilding) what they ruined in Ukraine
    • Russia returns (or pays for) what they took from Ukrainians

    Think that'll fly? :) Not likely.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Tom Southern, WIRED (Mar 10, 2022) writes:

    The Spectacular Collapse of Putin’s Disinformation Machinery

    It seems Putin has a vision of (or for) Russia as among the grand nations of the world, an assertive force to be heard and reckoned with on the world stage, respected/heeded throughout.

    Of course a nuclear-weapons power with a large military is to be reckoned with.
    Who in their right mind would want to invade Russia?

    Ukraine seeking NATO membership violates said vision, though.
    And so, Ukraine is a victim of Putin's vision (Russia isn't facing an invasion threat), though it seems unlikely they'd ever attain NATO membership.

    It's not so much that anyone is out to humiliate Russia here as such, more like Ukraine is looking elsewhere than Russia, taking their own steps forward as a sovereign state.
    Yet, the Ukrainians are the real victims on the ground here, not the generals in the Kremlin.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Hmm capitalism means authoritarianism,
    ↪Isaac
    ?
    I guess it can without regulatory protocols, as long as those don't turn authoritarian, right?

    Anyway, government removal happens, scales/reasons differ, ..., and Russia sure stands out.
    Some examples have already been posted, but we could include different examples while at it.

    Aug 2013 • Saudi Arabia's War on Witchcraft
    Feb 2017 • Iranian Regime Inciting Hatred, Persecuting Zoroastrian Minority
    Mar 2017 • WikiLeaks publishes 'biggest ever leak of secret CIA documents'
    Mar 2019 • Brunei to punish gay sex and adultery with death by stoning
    Dec 2021 • Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules
    Dec 2021 • China's Xi responsible for Uyghur 'genocide', unofficial tribunal says


    You straight admitted that you don't care about the truth. — frank

    Word of the Year 2016 (Oxford Languages), post-truth (Lexico) — a cultural failure.
    Actually just a failure.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Haven't personally verified (darn thing is a good 70 pages)...

    Pillars of Russia’s Disinformation and Propaganda Ecosystem (US Dept of State, Aug 2020)

    Isn't the threat of being shot control enough? — Isaac
    Not necessarily shoot. But (authoritarian) oppression, yep. Remove the rest. — jorndoe

    Have the Kool-Aid "crafted Kremlin lines" dominate the airways, go viral, be spread, the news du jour, and they just have to keep the rest under wraps, minimal, inconsequential. Standard procedure, propaganda, control narratives, "seed" population, much better than shooting people is to have them on their side, ... Don't know how effective some such is in Russia; others have tried, though.


    ↪frank
    ,
    ↪180 Proof
    , hmm, the story could use some improvements, and crafting it has barely begun. Maybe a blast in Donbas could set something off.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    IMO this shows that Putin isn’t really a dictator, [...] military failures in Ukraine would never have happened. — Apollodorus

    How do you figure?
    But, sure, not "omnipotent", there is a parliament and a few players after all.
    He's up there, though.



    On the mad speculative side, if things start going south for Putin, his double-double-secret operative could secretly supply al-Qaeda suicide-bombers with a tactical nuke and have it detonate strategically, with plausible deniability of course, and he might be able to spin a victory out of the rubble. Not exactly likely, rather risky, I know, but, hey, he might have gone over such a scenario with his most trusted military officer.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Sweden is traditionally neutral (though a good lot of Jews found safety in Sweden during Nazi times).
    Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but Sweden and Finland also have fairly close ties with Norway and Denmark.

    Jan 7, 2022 • Foreign Policy • Swedish Foreign Minister: Joining NATO Is Up to Us
    Mar 3, 2022 • Newsweek • NATO Issue in Sweden, Finland Pits Anxious Public Against Cautious Politicians
    Mar 5, 2022 • The Brussels Times • Sweden plans to deepen ties with NATO amid Russian aggression

    Anyway, if Putin is going to start posturing at Sweden and Finland, perhaps even invade, then things are going to take a turn for the worse (still).
    I suppose it might present two separate fronts for Russia, at least in the (seemingly unlikely) event that Putin makes a move towards Sweden and Finland.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    But this makes no sense. Then why the Kool-Aid? — Isaac

    Control? Just the "crafted Kremlin line" and no others?

    They need the Kool-Aid precisely because their ability to just shoot dissenters is limited. — Isaac

    Not necessarily shoot. But (authoritarian) oppression, yep. Remove the rest.
    Alternatively, they need the Kool-Aid and just that, because they have no thought-control.
    ♫ or do "They"? (play theme from The Twilight Zone) ♬

    There's zero reason to assume this offer isn't genuine. — boethius

    Better late than never I guess?
    Did sanctions have an effect of sorts? Ukrainians cause difficulties?
    Anyway, seems the Nazi story fell out of favor.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪FreeEmotion
    , what do you think is going on?

    Ukraine: what anti-war protesters in Russia risk by speaking out (Mar 1, 2022)
    Russian police jail kids who took flowers and 'No to War' signs to Ukraine's embassy (Mar 2, 2022)
    Human rights group: "serious crackdown" in Russia (Mar 2, 2022)
    Putin's War At Home: Russian Government Pushes Hard To Enforce Total Unanimity On Ukraine War (Mar 3, 2022)

    A year after last year’s joint statement on the situation in Russia, authorities there have further intensified the already unprecedented crackdown on human rights. A fully-fledged witch hunt against independent groups, human rights defenders, media outlets and journalists, and political opposition, is decimating civil society and forcing many into exile.
    The gravity of this human rights crisis has been demonstrated in the last few days by the forcible dispersal of anti-war rallies and pickets across Russia with over 6,800 arrested (as of 2 March 2022), attempts to impose censorship on the reporting of the conflict in Ukraine and to silence those media and individuals who speak out against Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, including through blocking media websites, threats of criminal prosecution under “fake news” and “high treason” charges and other means.     — Joint Letter to the United Nations Human Rights Council on the human rights situation in Russia (Mar 4, 2022)

    Russia Criminalizes Independent War Reporting, Anti-War Protests (Mar 7, 2022)

    Remove others until only the Kool-Aid is left.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    On Putin's to-do list?

    ☐ Prominent Russians join protests against Ukraine war amid 1,800 arrests (Feb 25, 2022)
    ☐ A few members of the Russian Parliament speak out against the war. (Feb 28, 2022)
    ☐ Ukraine: Russian opposition to the invasion is giving Putin cause for alarm (Mar 4, 2022)

    ☐ More than 4,300 people arrested at anti-war protests across Russia (Mar 6, 2022)

    Individuals crossed off the list:

    ☑ Alexander Litvinenko (Nov 23, 2006), and then more testing was implemented at airports
    ☑ Here’s a list of Putin critics who've ended up dead (Mar 11, 2016)

    Some crossed off the list a while back:

    ☑ Putin pulls plug on last critical TV channel (Jun 23, 2003)
    ☑ Russia's Last Independent TV Station Broadcasts 'Swan Lake' in Nod to History Before Going Dark (Mar 4, 2022)

    I guess Ukraine is in progress. :fire:
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Strange and unusual:

    Russia Releases Bizarre Video of Space Station Breaking Apart (Mar 5, 2022)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    There's a difference between moral justification and justification as such. — boethius

    I thought it was Putin's justification to invade Ukraine?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Putin's ties to neo-Nazi's would not make a sound argument about justification of fighting neo-Nazi's unsound, it would just make Putin a hypocrite. — boethius

    Or a justification to remove Putin or invade Russia?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Great visuals — FreeEmotion

    This one might not be as interesting/relevant, but, anyway, according to "Mapped: Corruption in Countries Around the World" (Feb 11, 2022), measuring a corruption perception index:

    2012-2021:

    Ukraine: +6 → 32
    Russia: +1 → 29
  • Ukraine Crisis
    “Imagine that Ukraine becomes a NATO member and launches those military operations.” — One World News

    Well, imagine Putin feeling insecure about other neighbors, and going for his "Crimean solution". :/

    The reality on the ground is the predicament the Ukrainian people now find themselves in. Invasion, bombing, shooting, fires, destruction, disruptions of getting on with life (getting their kids to school), ... (while armchair commenters play blame-games). What does it mean for them? It's not like they've been launching military campaigns into Russia, or threatened with that intent.

    I'm kind of thinking that, if some of Russia's neighbors look elsewhere, making Putin feel sort of claustrophobic, then there might be reasons for that. Them looking elsewhere doesn't justify Russia taking them over, doesn't justify Russian expansion by :fire:.

    What nation (in their right mind) would invade Russia, would launch a war to take over Moscow? For one, that'd be rather costly. :fire:

    With Putin's plan to enroll Ukraine in Russia, maybe, say, Slovakia and Hungary, become uncomfortable with the "new" nuclear neighbor. Would that then justify launching a counter-invasion into Russia?

    It's all hot air, distracting from the predicament of the Ukrainian people.

    God be with the people of Ukraine and Russia. — FreeEmotion

    America prays for God to destroy our enemies. Our enemies pray for God to destroy us. Somebody is going to be disappointed. Somebody is wasting their fucking time. Could it be everyone? — Carlin (2008)
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