• Emergence
    :sweat: Do you really want hundreds of more 'optimistic' posts?! Anyway, ty. :up:
  • Emergence
    Maybe I'm misreading your remark, but I haven't opined that "AI development" (i.e. AGI) is a "threat". IMO, it's human civilization with its shiny new tools (e.g. intelligent, thermonuclear and/or nano-technological), however, that threatens human existence in the near-term.
  • Emergence
    :clap: :cool: Enjoy!

    I'll give this video a look eventually. Thanks!
  • The nature of man…inherently good or bad?
    Apparently, the OP's author fails to recognize his own biases in the premises of his question and thereby misunderstands its implications even when pointed out to him repeatedly.
  • The Ethics of Burdening Others in the Name of Personal Growth: When is it Justified?
    We're animals, get over it. Few are capable of deliberately defying our deep programmiing by not proceating; some have no opportunity to breed, and others are physiologically incapable. That leaves the vast majority of the locquaciously horny human herd. After all, species imperatives necessarily constrain organisms' ideals. H. sapiens will not extinguish itself by "anti-natalism", not when quite a few other self-inflicted and potential exogamous extinction events are very much live prospects. Just look at the fossil record, schop – before you know it, we'll be somebody else's dinosaurs and dodo birds. :smirk:
  • Replacing matter as fundamental: does it change anything?
    Currently not understanding exactly how matter and energy interact to create a subjective experience does not negate the observed fact that matter and energy can interact to make a subjective experience.Philosophim
    :100:
  • The nature of man…inherently good or bad?
    Sound reasoning spits into the dogmatic ocean, but still ... :clap: :fire:
  • The nature of man…inherently good or bad?
    The apex of creation was followed by “evolutionary scale” if you two bothered to read that paragraph properly. No theological assumptions granted there.invicta
    :ok: Riiiiight, the whole thread failed "to read that paragraph properly". The phrase "evolutionary scale" doesn't have anything to do with natural selection since there is no telos at work in nature. Anyway, invicta, I take your lack of response to my post as your concession to the points made by me and the others cited there. :smirk:
  • Replacing matter as fundamental: does it change anything?
    The constants of nature are ratios or balances. So they are “fundamental numbers” that emerge from processes in opposition.

    The take home is that physics sounds reductionist to most ears, but it is actually structuralist in its metaphysics.

    Reality is neither fundsmentally classical, nor even quantum. These are just the two matched limit state descriptions ...
    apokrisis
    :fire: :100:
  • The nature of man…inherently good or bad?
    ... the role of man as the apex of creation ...invicta
    'Man as apex-predator', yeah okay. No amount of "creationist" dogma, however, changes the fact that the human genome is more than 96% identical with the chimpanzee genome. We're just bald, locquacious (i.e. proselytizing, sermonizing, bloviating) primates in the animal kingdom. Oh yeah, our uniquely distinguishing superpower is that we're a knowledge-creating species; however, it's the knowledge, not us human primates, which is "separate and above" the animal kingdom. Human history "red in tooth and claw" provides the most graphic and repetitious testimony that humans are beasts not angels, inseparable from the animal kingdom, not "above" it. Also, Plato's Euthyphro is instructive as a cautionary tale about unsound reasoning from supernatural premises about "good and bad". :monkey:

    I think humans are clever animals who use language to manage their environment. I see no reason to theologize humans or utilize categories like 'apex of creation...'Tom Storm
    :up: :up:

    :halo:

    We don't have an "animalistic side" -- we are all animal--animals descended from animals.

    Our best selves may have flourished when we were wandering hunter-gatherers. Being civilized for several thousand years doesn't seem to have civilized us all that much.
    BC
    :fire:

    :up:
  • On order, logic, the mind and reality.
    Are you saying that these are examples of the 'ruses or delusions' by which humans deny their own inevitable decay?Wayfarer
    Just the opposite – what in the opening sentence of my last post isn't clear ...
    ... my use of [Buddhist ideas] as a metaphor from outside of the scientific worldview (re: entropy)?180 Proof

    Now re-read the first paragraph in my post. :roll:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/804140

    The first paragraph is about 'the human mind' and how (my) scientific interpretation has affinities with (my) interpretation of some (non-scientific) 'Buddhist ideas'. The second paragraph is about the function philosophy (i.e. wisdom-seeking) can serve in reducing 'the human mind's' self-inflicted, immiserating handicaps.

    So the second paragraph answers your first "to what end?" question and the first paragraph answers your second "these (Buddhist ideas) examples" question. If that isn't clear enough for you, Wayfarer, then we'll just have to go on talking past each other like we usually do.
  • On order, logic, the mind and reality.
    To what end, though?Wayfarer
    Are you asking about (a) Buddhist tradition or my use of it as a metaphor from outside of the scientific worldview (re: entropy)? If the latter, consider my post again, especially the second paragraph:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/804140

    All you're saying wisdom consists of is resigning yourself to the inevitable natural fact of death and decay, isn't it?
    That's quite uncharitable ... in light of what I wrote (also follow the embedded link):
    ... striving to reduce foolery (& stupidity) seeks to align expectations with reality as an adaptive habit ...180 Proof
    is what I am "saying wisdom consists of".
  • The nature of man…inherently good or bad?
    ... as to man’s nature are we inherently bad or good ? Or perhaps we are both ?invicta
    Neither. I think as a species we are inherently deluded – an organic alchemy of cognitive biases, maladaptive habits & akrasia – homo insapiens. 'Moral ramifications', I suppose, are a fallout from both our individual and collective struggles with – for and against – our delusions.
  • On order, logic, the mind and reality.
    :cool: Thanks.

    Would you consider the possibility that this 'inherent disorder' is what is designated by 'avidya' (ignorance) in Buddhist and Hindu philosophy?Wayfarer
    No. More so: anicca-anatta.

    And that in those schools of traditional philosophy, it is precisely detachment from the imperatives of nature that provides the pathway to liberation (mokṣa, Nirvāṇa)?
    Is that so? Well, in other related dharmic traditions, I understand that it is 'detachment from the psychological habit of permanence' (e.g. anicca-anatta) that facilitates 'liberation'.

    Whereas the identification with 'what decays and passes away' (in their terms) binds to the 'wheel of saṃsāra' (detachment from same being the aim of 'daily spiritual practice').
    You would know better than I, Wayfarer. I only raised 'Buddhism' as a speculative resemblance to, or psychological recognition of, to the fact of entropy – inherent disorder-ing – and the implications of denying, or ignoring, it (i.e. avidya).
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    In the 20th century, Quantum physics undermined some of the basic assumptions of Classical Physics, by discovering that Nature does not present absolute Truth, but statistical Uncertainty.Gnomon
    Sorry but :rofl: ...
  • Consciousness - Fundamental or Emergent Model
    IMO, "system" gets us nowhere and only loops back (no pun intended) to the "brain-hardware / mind-software / IPO" metaphor that obfuscates much more than it elucidates.
  • On order, logic, the mind and reality.
    My take on these ideas are similiar, Benj, but put differently, I think more naturalistically, as follows:

    The human mind belongs to a natural system (i.e. the nested ecologies-constrained human body) which in turn is inseparable from the natural world that is constrained by constitutive, law-like regularities, or structural processes. Entropy is one of the natural world's structural processes and inexorable senescence (as well as temporality) of the human mind is a manifestation of entropy. Psychopathologies and cognitive biases are as well. One implication of this, I think, is that, to the degree the human mind denies its own structural process of entropy (i.e. increasing disorder aka "aging" ... impermanence) via various ruses, diversions, delusions, etc, the human mind frustrates, even afflicts, itself (à la Buddhism's "anicca", "anatta", "dukkha-karma", no?)

    NB: As I see it, 'the business of philosophy' is primarily to reflectively discipline the human mind with study, dialectical engagement and praxis in order to gradually unlearn the maladaptive habit of 'denying the human mind's inherent disorder' while learning to be antifragile because of this fact. This striving to reduce foolery (& stupidity) seeks to align expectations with reality as an adaptive habit, or, to use P. Hadot's phrase, as a daily spiritual practice.
  • Replacing matter as fundamental: does it change anything?
    The idea of "fundamental substance" is a metaphysical one, not a scientific one. It's a way of thinking, not a matter of fact.T Clark
    :100:

    As the OP makes clear, @Eugen is incorrigibly confused on this point.
  • A potential solution to the hard problem
    The neurology literature is full of examples of the disassociation of the conscious self from the awareness, experience and perception of the organism, blind sight is merely one example.prothero
    :up:
  • Consciousness - Fundamental or Emergent Model
    180 Proof
    Do you think there is any progress offered by labelling 'consciousness' a system?
    universeness
    No.
  • When Adorno was cancelled
    What is particularly fascinating and at first glance puzzling about this is that he identifies the wild, empty, and irrational pseudo-activity of the students with the increasing “technocratization of the university”. What could he have meant?Jamal
    Perhaps Adorno interpreted the anarchic protests of the student movement as agitating for 'universities to be administered by student groups (councils) at the expense of bourgeois, ivory tower, tenured scholars'.
  • Consciousness - Fundamental or Emergent Model
    Either:
    1) Panpsychism (everything is conscious)
    or
    2) Emergentism (of some kind) (some things are conscious)
    or
    3) Eliminativism (nothing is conscious)
    bert1
    4) Property Dualism (there are complementary ways of describing an entity as 'conscious' or 'extended' or both) ...
  • Replacing matter as fundamental: does it change anything?
    No, the hard problem exists if we start with something (anything) that isn't consciousness, and try to explain consciousness in terms of that.bert1
    I think without a clear, precise conception (or theory) of "consciousness", saying "isn't consciousness" doesn't actually say anything; ergo, at best, the so-called "hard problem" is underdetermined.

    :up:
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    There are no "placebos" in foxholes. :mask:

    If religions and spiritualities confer peace of mind to a person, that has some net positive effect on their relationship to their body and thus the functioning of their body/it's health. No tricks, just reason.Benj96
    The "trick" is the belief that a placebo "cures" an ailment without active medicinal ingredients (ergo the placebo effect). Ignoring symptoms, however comforting, only allows the untreated ailment to get worse. IME, religion is mostly used as a placebo – consolation – for existential dread as well as cultural and/or historical and/or scientific ignorance (i.e. phobias & bigotries).
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    So science will not replace religion. But it would be an excellent development if ethics did.Banno
    :up: :up:
  • A potential solution to the hard problem
    I won't try and summarise the already succinct Aeon article (which describes itself as being "only in bare outline"). However, what I found most fascinating is the idea that qualia constitute the self, rather than being something perceived by the self.Luke
    :cool: :up:

    If you haven't already read them, I recommend Peter Watt's first contact hard scifi novel Blindsight (2006) and R. Scott Bakker's hard scifi psychothriller Neuropath (2008) – both heavily influenced by neuroscientist-philosopher (& Buddhist) Thomas Metzinger's monumental work Being No One (2003). The Aeon article you've linked, Luke, summarizes many of the ideas Metzinger et al's had derived from their research.
  • Emergence
    AGI will make errors and correct and learn from them hundred of thousands to millions of times faster than human brains can. It won't need to be "sentient" to reach and surpass human-level performance. General Intelligence without the processing bottleneck of "consciousness" will render h. sapiens a metacognitively obsolete species and manifest AGI as the tip of an alien iceberg.
  • Emergence
    Thanks for clarifying.

    Yes, clocks, for instance, do not experience duration or retrospection. I think it's our metabolic functioning – relative states of homeostasis – that constitutes the intuition of "temporality". If this is so, then only an AGI instantiated in either synthetic or organic organism will, as you say, have a "temporal mind". This, however, would not be an intrinsic, or fundamental, feature or property of AGI itself, and therefore, it wouldn't (need to) be sentient – certainly not as we conceive of sentience today.

    @universeness
  • Consciousness - Fundamental or Emergent Model
    There are many possibilities for category error and reification.Janus
    :up:
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    Might science absorb values, ethics, and morals from religions?Art48
    :pray: Let's hope not.
    .
    Or might science somehow evolve to address the concerns and questions traditionally addressed by religion?
    IME, science is to experimental medicines as religion is to ritual placebos/nocebos. The latter tricks many into ignoring their symptoms whereas the former contributes to the health of most. However, philosophy – what we do with (or practice) either of them – often promotes 'proper diet & exercise' as a daily fitness regime – "a way of life" – which cultivates / reinforces flourishing (i.e. well-being).

    Science will never eventually replace religion.Benj96
    Just as astronomy has not replaced astrology, planetology has not replaced flat earthism, evolution has not replaced creationism and cognitive neuroscience has not replaced spiritualism (i.e. belief in ghosts/souls), I suspect modern technosciences will never totally replace supernatural religions as such. :eyes: :mask:

    It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God - but to create him. — Arthur C. Clarke

    I think, however, when technoscience (e.g. "AGI" + nano/bio/neurotech) provides – what every "God" ever worshipped by h. sapiens spectacularly fails to provide – a reliable lifespan-healthspan-brainspan-youthspan extending techniques (e.g. immorbity therapy) for making death a medically elective procedure – that will cause, all things being equal, 'religious observance' as we know it today to shrink by orders of magnitude to barely fringe subcultures without it ever disappearing completely because, as a species, we are congenital 'magical thinkers' (i.e. confabulators). For our immortal descendents, science will be 'the last man standing' compared to religion. My guess is that their (or "AI-human" hybrid's) spirituality will recognizably consist of "Spinoza's God" – acosmism (sub specie aeternitatis) and/or pandeism (sub specie durationis), not "pantheism". :fire: