If I had to answer yes or no, I would say no. I want to say that yes, the descendants of slaves should get a payout, but it is too fraught with practical problems. Not to mention it might be irresponsible to use people's money in a way that might not be effective, if effectiveness is a metric by which we should consider government spending. But that seems like a cop-out. Really, if I thought payouts could work, I would be fully in favor of paying the right people and then allowing them to do whatever they want with that money, the same way you or I can mostly do whatever we want with our own wages. How much they would get paid, I don't know. There really is no upper limit on what could be justified in theory, but we would of course want to observe some limit even if it is arbitrary.

My mind could be changed. If someone could lay out a defensible, effective, efficient plan for identifying who should get paid and how much, and it did not differ too much from my own views on the subject, then I would likely answer yes to your question.

None of that is to say that this approach would be equally effective in correcting for all other historical injustices - that is, if you think payouts would be effective in the case of slavery at all, and clearly some people don't.

But this thread isn't really about reparations for slavery in specific, so I'll just leave it at that.

Thanks for the positive affirmation.

But what is the conclusion? Can there be a conclusion? I mean, if we were to take the hard objectivist position, then how do we do reconcile that position with the endless plethora of subjective opinions encountered? Do we go through every one of them and try to reduce them to propositions about the objective world that can then be run through the metaphorical blender of objectively true utterances?

Surely if someone says something like: "I like cats because I think they are cuddly", then we kind of just have to deal with it if that is subsumed by some greater relative truth like "cats are ideal pets for people who like cuddly animals"?

I think I see where I'm going wrong. A relative truth would be that relative to a society of evangelical Christians, gay marriage is indeed wrong on the basis of their subjective belief that it is wrong. That goes further than just reporting a fact, which is what I did in my post.

It is actually presented as relativism vs. objectivism in the OP. A bunch of people, me included, got it mixed up though, presumably when they tried to refresh themselves on the whole objectivism vs. subjectivism thing.

I think something could be true independent of opinion and conscious experience per se, yet still be relative, e.g. "many people believe that vaccines are dangerous", or "many evangelical Christians believe gay marriage should not be legal". These statements are true independent of our existence, or of what you or I think, yet represent something relative (to anti-vaxxers and evangelical Christians).

So, even by the definition you supply, relative truths can exist, but they are indeed different from objective truths because they often represent subjective opinions as being true relative to a certain group of people; the potential for many relative truths is nested in the existence of subjective truths that can be factually reported.

When I read this post (mine, not yours, MoK) I can't help but feel that what I'm saying is fallacious, but I can't tell where it goes wrong.

I'm no physicist, or mathematician, but this sounds suspect. If a fact - like the laws of physics - in one universe is not the same as in another universe, wouldn't there have to be some independent reference frame against which the two can be compared to evaluate them relationally?
— ToothyMaw
Not sure what is being asked, especially since there isn't any entity necessarily doing any evaluation. For instance, in another universe, the cosmological constant might be different, which I suppose can be compared to (greater/less than relation) to each other. In yet another universe, there is no meaningful thing that could be considered a cosmological constant.

If there were something similar to Newton's laws in both
Newton's laws are pretty basic and don't so much involve things like constants, other than fundamentals like there being 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension. Other universes could have any values for either of these, and dimensions that are neither spatial nor temporal. Newton's laws wouldn't work in any of those. — noAxioms

You are confirming my point, I think. I'm saying that we cannot evaluate the laws of physics in two universes in some sort of relational, connected manner unless there is stuff like the cosmological constant - what I erroneously called a reference frame - in both. I was using Newton's laws as an example because my knowledge of physics is very limited. So, I think you must use the term "relative" by your own reasoning, and not "relational" - especially if you think that an evaluating entity would have to exist to connect the laws of physics in two different universes, although it is not entirely clear if you do.

Maybe I should be more direct: what exactly do you mean when you use the term relational? That is a sincere question. You might have some really good reason for using that term related to your knowledge of physics.

I think one can view many truths as being objective, and others as being somewhat subjective. Thus, I think the specific topic at hand is important in some sort of discussion of objectivism versus subjectivism.

While objectivism and subjectivism clash, I don't think I've ever heard someone argue in good faith that truth is entirely subjective or entirely objective.

(Upon doing a little research some people do indeed argue all truth is subjective)

How do you define the truth? — MoK

I think this post is getting at exactly that - is the property of being true based on facts that are verifiable independent of our feelings, or is the property of being true based on subjective experiences? Or at least, that's what I would like to think.

To say, for instance, that objectivism doesn't recognize context is a little strange:

relativism encourages us to acknowledge the plurality of perspectives and accept that truth may be shaped by our experiences and contexts. — Cadet John Kervensley

It may be problematic to see relativism or objectivitism as an ultimate 'truth'. That is because they are both perspectives. Saying that may amount to relativism in some respects. However, relativism may go too far in reducing all matters of 'truth' to the subjective, which may rule out the shared and intersubjective elements are missed. This can apply to most aspects of 'truth', including morality. Both the subjective and objective matter in thinking about the construction of 'truth and need to be juggled effectively. — Jack Cummins

I think I agree with this. And I think the main, practical distinction between the two is that one is experienced by a mind, and that a truth can be subjectively true just on the basis of being related to that experience with no other evidence being required. On the other hand, when one asserts an objective truth, one is expected to back it up. These two differing expectations lead to a useful delineation between the truths derived from, say, literature and science.

For example, the laws of physics or mathematical truths are often cited as examples of objectivism in action.The laws of physics are not necessarily the same from one universe to the next, so that would be an example of relativism (or relational, as I tend to use the word, to distinguish it from Einstein's relativity theory, which is something else). — noAxioms

Okay, I'm no physicist, or mathematician, but this sounds suspect. If a fact - like the laws of physics - in one universe is not the same as in another universe, wouldn't there have to be some independent reference frame against which the two can be compared to evaluate them relationally? The laws of physics in one universe could be so different from another that they cannot be compared via knowledge of the two alone. I mean, if there were something similar to Newton's laws in both, just changed a little (which would have massive consequences I'm sure), maybe then, but what if fundamentally they are nothing alike? I think you have to use the term "relative", because relational implies some sort of connection.

All of that might be an admitted layman just shouting into the void, and if so, please correct me.

You're repeating the exact same pattern with different words - connecting all men to rape, this time through masculinity. — Tzeentch

The point of invoking that example was to show that we can indeed connect a group identity to the really bad acts of a subset of that group, even without predicating the capacity to do those acts to some inherent quality of the group. Men largely have the characteristics associated with masculinity, and some of those characteristics manifest in bad things, such as rape. So, while clearly not every man is a rapist, many men possess the characteristics, to some degree, that might lead a man to rape a woman. There is a sort of continuum for many traits, which, in this case, would be some mix of physical aggression and entitlement.

This way of looking at it is even more straightforward in the case of the relationship between (the not monolithic groups of) white people and people of color:

I think this kind of analysis applies straightforwardly to white people discriminating against people of color: white people largely have a blind spot that allows for discrimination against people of color by virtue of viewing the issue the way you do: that we live in a fair society and if poor people of color cannot uplift themselves, it is due to their own choices and shortcomings. You don't have to be a raging racist to be complicit in this mechanism, and so I think it is mostly acceptable to talk about white people at large in negative ways. — ToothyMaw

You should respond substantively, instead of getting indignant. Or at least be substantive in your indignance.

You're repeating the exact same pattern with different words — Tzeentch

I'm not sure which pattern you are referring to, as I have indeed repeated myself a number of times in this thread.

I would argue that there are characteristics connected to masculinity, and thus men, as a group, that largely cause some of them to assault women.
— ToothyMaw

So you're a sexist too.

Great. — Tzeentch

Noting where I said that it is masculinity, and not something inherent to men: how am I a sexist for saying that?

What are these "juicy apples", that so apparently form a homogenous group of sweet fruits looking to be peeled and eaten, with skin color for some reason being the primary trait we define them by?
— ToothyMaw

People aren't fruit. We don't treat fruit as individuals. We do with people. Kind of proving my point there, buddy. — Tzeentch

That you took what I wrote so literally is surprising. It was intended to show that I think your arguments are absurd, unserious boilerplate garbage and worthy of ridicule.

I think we can talk about black people without saying that being black is the defining feature of being a black person. Same goes for white people.
— ToothyMaw

Which begs the question why you can't stop talking about this feature that apparently doesn't define the groups, but which you chose to name the groups after anyway. — Tzeentch

The reality is that, historically, people have been subdivided into groups based on their race, and, because of all the insane shit that has happened, and the slightly less insane shit going on today, we are kind of forced to deal with these abstractions. Do you think I enjoy talking about people of color as a group? Because I don't; ideally there would be no reason to do that.

If I were to say that men ought not rape women, would you say that that is dehumanizing and sexist?
— ToothyMaw

Mostly this is just a vacuous statement. But yes.

Really what you are implying is "Men are rapists" - strictly speaking true, because some men are indeed rapists.

However, it's your failure to delineate and the insiuation that connects all men to rape that is particularly pernicious. — Tzeentch

I would argue that there are characteristics connected to masculinity, and thus men, as a group, that largely cause some of them to assault women. So, even if not all men are rapists, many men have the relevant attributes rapists have to at least some degree (and those attributes might even be good in limited amounts). I think this kind of analysis applies straightforwardly to white people discriminating against people of color: white people largely have a blind spot that allows for discrimination against people of color by virtue of viewing the issue the way you do: that we live in a fair society and if poor people of color cannot uplift themselves, it is due to their own choices and shortcomings. You don't have to be a raging racist to be complicit in this mechanism, and so I think it is mostly acceptable to talk about white people at large in negative ways.

If I were to say: white people ought not discriminate against black people as much, and ought to listen when black people claim they are experiencing discrimination, would that be dehumanizing?
— ToothyMaw

Yes, and clearly so.

The practice of trying to simplify large demographics into monolithic groups with a fixed set of characteristics is inherently dehumanizing. and inherently racist. It's the definition of racism, in fact - it's just taking place under another guise. — Tzeentch

Where did I attribute a fixed set of characteristics to anyone? White people discriminate against black people regularly, and this discrimination is particularly one-sided and pernicious. If I were to say that men ought not rape women, would you say that that is dehumanizing and sexist? I mean, sure, not every man is a rapist, but we know that if a woman is raped, it is almost certainly by a man, right?

Who are these 'Black People' who apparently form a homogeneous group of needy victims looking to be saved and taken pity on, with skin color for some reason being the primary trait we define them by? — Tzeentch

What are these "juicy apples", that so apparently form a homogenous group of sweet fruits looking to be peeled and eaten, with skin color for some reason being the primary trait we define them by?

Maybe my small European brain can't fathom the profundity of combatting racism by making people's skin color and race their defining features. — Tzeentch

I think we can talk about black people without saying that being black is the defining feature of being a black person. Same goes for white people.

I said nothing about solutions, but such generalizations to me seem the product of dehumanization, and a part of the problem. — Tzeentch

If I were to say: white people ought not discriminate against black people as much, and ought to listen when black people claim they are experiencing discrimination, would that be dehumanizing? I mean, I'm not saying either group is less than human, am I? That seems to be the kind of position you think you are attacking, but your objections would fall flat short of someone saying something massively stupid.

What I'm saying is more along the lines of this: people living in the United States, who are almost certainly the beneficiaries of slave labor, ought to compensate the descendants of slaves, many of whom likely agree such an action would be just.

"The descendants of slaves" is a well-defined group, not some vague abstraction that subsumes people's individuality. The same goes for "people living in the United States". Neither group is:

a non-existent abstraction — Tzeentch

One might have to ask themselves from where this desire comes to view people, rather than as individuals, as inherently part of a non-existent abstraction onto which one has slapped all kinds of nasty labels. The answer is usually pathological in nature. — Tzeentch

Okay, nobody has unreasonably abstracted anybody in this thread as far as I know. So, you can drop that, please. Furthermore, the desire to throw these roadblocks up whenever a decent discussion could be had about resolving systemic issues facing minorities, or righting wrongs related to those issues, is actually indicative of a pathological inclination towards aggressively trying to 'keep the peace'.

Upon re-reading your comment I think you are saying directly that reparations could be justified a hundred years ago. My argument still stands, however.

No - a hundred years ago, maybe - and I am rather skeptical about people claiming victimhood in this case. — Tzeentch

First off, clearly many of the descendants of slaves believe that they should be compensated, as the overwhelming majority of people of color believe the descendants of slaves should receive compensation.

Second, you aren't answering my question directly: I'm not asking if you think the effects of slavery last until today, I'm asking if you would agree that reparations could theoretically be justified, and you seem to imply that you think it could have been a hundred years ago.

If that is the case, I lay out the following argument:

(1) There is a relationship between the magnitude of the evil of an action and the magnitude of its bad effects such that more evil actions generally have worse, longer-lasting effects.

(2) I believe the magnitude of evil of slavery is such that it could have bad effects lasting until today.

(3) Thus, if you claim that the bad effects of slavery are no longer in play, and thus were not as severe as I claim, then we at least partially disagree on the magnitude of evil of slavery, or you object to (1).

If you do not object to (1), then you need to explicitly defend the position that slavery is less evil than I say it is, or else grant that reparations could be justified today much like your claim that they could be justified a hundred years ago. And I say slavery is one of the evilest things one can enact on a people.

If you want something to feel guilty about the US has no shortage of atrocities it has committed in the here and now, and has never so much as apologized for. The victims are often still alive, and usually not doing well. Vietnamese mothers are still giving birth to deformed babies as a result of Uncle Sam's Agent Orange treatment. — Tzeentch

Yes, that makes me feel guilty too. And I would be in favor of righting that particular wrong if it could be achieved.

People who were never slaveowners paying "reparations" to people who were never slaves all on the basis of skin color is one of the most silly and racist things I've ever heard argued by "serious" intellectuals. — Tzeentch

Like I said in the OP, it would be on the basis of being the descendants of slaves, not merely on skin color. Furthermore, I believe that slavery, and the destructive policies that kind of piggy-backed on it, are severe enough to warrant compensation given my pre-existing ideas of justice. If you agree with me on the effects of slavery and policy, and have a sense of justice like mine, then I think you are the one with blinders - more specifically, a selective view of when to apply that sense of justice.

If you thought slavery were as deleterious as I say, and had generational effects lasting to today even, would you agree that reparations could be justified?

Also: I'm no intellectual, let alone a serious one.

Personally I agree that reparations are good in theory, but I am skeptical about the viability. For example, if we are going to help disadvantaged people, why limit it just to descendants of slaves? — Igitur

I categorically think we should help disadvantaged people in general, and reparations is just one part of that. But, like I said to T Clark, it is also about justice. If we want to claim we believe in just treatment, then reparations are a no-brainer: people should be paid for the work they do, and if they cannot be paid for the work they do directly, we should compensate the people most proximal to that theft of wages.

And is trying to make this fairer even feasible? I agree that we should if we could, but we would need more information than we have to avoid just giving benefits to those with certain backgrounds, which will cause at least some political backlash, and if that is inefficient, then shouldn't we just spend that money on creating a fair and equal world that's better for everyone? — Igitur

I think that if we improve everyone's lot through policy, then people are less likely to lash out over perceived unfair treatment. If everyone just got a check from the government to sustain them while they mostly get to pursue whatever they want, for example, they probably wouldn't care that much if we tried to give the descendants of slaves something extra. So, yes, we should make the world fairer and more equal, and in turn I think that that will make the distribution of reparations less controversial in the absence of a way to make it a really efficient, fair process.

Undoubtedly the most important thing, really, is to make the world better for people, but I would like to see reparations not just because it would do that, but also because it would be the just thing to do.

Can't tell if moron or troll. You have 100 posts and have been a member for 5 years, so it seems very unlikely that you would lurk so long just to get this one off.

I think that if someone can be persuaded that slavery benefited people of color at all, then they are a hopeless moron that could be persuaded of almost any right-wing bullshit regardless of the way some small number of people frame their arguments for reparations.
— ToothyMaw

Florida’s teachers are now required to instruct middle-school students that enslaved people “developed skills which, in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit.”...DeSantis has repeatedly defended the new language
— AP - DeSantis is defending new slavery teachings. — T Clark

Yeah, I wasn't aware that it extended to brainwashing children. That's messed up.

those future generations would likely suffer worse effects from the society declaring "hey we paid our debt, it's over, problem solved, let's do whatever we want to whomever we want".
— LuckyR

This is a very good point. I should have included it in my list of good reasons not to give reparations. — T Clark

That's why we should continually advocate for change and constantly remind people of the grotesque, unjust disparities between different groups of people - in terms of both class and race. Reparations and effecting political change are not mutually exclusive. Do you think someone who cares about the working class like Bernie Sanders would just retire to some beach in Florida if we implemented reparations? Or would he continue to fight for people, black, brown and white, to have better lives? If people begin to listen less, then we dial it up until they listen again. For me it's pretty much that simple.

I see no problem with an aggrieved party seeking damages and retribution from their exploiters wherever and how it can be done. — NOS4A2

This is good. But the exploiters are no longer alive, clearly.

Should the estates of slave-owners and the wealth that they stole still exist, perhaps that can be done. — NOS4A2

I think you know that I'm suggesting that our government ought to pay for these damages.

But if you’re going to implicate anyone but the guilty parties — NOS4A2

Not doing that.

First off, no, I don't believe that, and second, should we not try to compensate people at all even if it isn't nearly enough? Do you think that no reparations is the same thing as some reparations?
— ToothyMaw

No, we should not. It is offensive to suggest that it can be done. And can we maybe address the case of mixed race folk both paying and receiving reparations presumably in some amount proportional to their ethnic origins? — unenlightened

Okay, well, it remains that we can do something, even if it isn't nearly enough, if we were to just resolve to do so. In fact, I think doing nothing is far more offensive. We can't be bothered at all to, say, offer more housing grants for people so as to help uplift them because it is offensive to try to help them? What kind of backwards reasoning is that?

I am using that example to represent some of the most extreme conditions
— ToothyMaw

I understand what you were trying to say, but I stand by my judgment it is insulting and demeaning. — T Clark

What about it is insulting and demeaning? Is it offensive to acknowledge the realities of people who are systematically marginalized like "crack whores" (your words not mine)? I mean, nothing will leave you poor and marginalized like a crack addiction, and I would say this of any white person too.

As I said, it won't work and it'll make things worse. We don't need justice, if that's what reparations really is. Is money to middle class black people but nothing for poor whites and Hispanics justice? We need to make things better. — T Clark

I'm not disputing that we need to do the things you claim we need to do to make things better. I just think, as I have said before, that if we were to care to apply our standards of justice consistently, we would support reparations.

This seems a little glib.
— ToothyMaw

It's not glib, it's vague. I wasn't trying to provide a list of possible solutions. Here are some - Universal Basic Income, political support for labor unions, changes in tax policy, political action to get rid of racial reactionaries. Most efforts should be aimed at class differences, not racial ones. Improving workers finances won't solve the problem, but it will make it a different problem. — T Clark

Yes, I agree, all those things would be good.

And note that, nowhere in this thread, nor in my OP, has anyone expressed the sentiment that white people are responsible for everything that is wrong and should be hated. Yet you felt as if you had to invoke the spooky specter of wokeness.
— ToothyMaw

Wokeness isn't spooky and it isn't a term I like, but it's the term typically used these days and you know what I mean. What's the right word? If you think it isn't a real thing, then you don't really understand what's going on. Trying to make white people feel guilty gave Ron DeSantis the opening to claim that slavery benefited blacks. — T Clark

And, your protestations of innocence non-withstanding, reparations is part of the same package. — T Clark

I think that if someone can be persuaded that slavery benefited people of color at all, then they are a hopeless moron that could be persuaded of almost any right-wing bullshit regardless of the way some small number of people frame their arguments for reparations.

If you, and all of your family members, and all of your friends' family members, and yours and their grandparents, and yours and their grandparent's grandparents were subjected to slavery for hundreds of years, only to be abused and treated as second class citizens even after being freed, never to see a dime in compensation for virtually all of that work, would you want your descendants to be disproportionately impoverished and derided as part of a legacy you could not have possibly changed? Or would you at least want them to be compensated somewhat for the exploitation you had suffered?
— ToothyMaw

This is another one of those presumptuous, condescending statements we were talking about. You can't set yourself up as a spokesperson for black people. — T Clark

Maybe it is presumptuous, but I am not claiming to be a spokesperson for anyone. I'm just trying to have some empathy. If people don't feel the way I do about it, or think that it is a useful question, I'm okay with that. I can try to reel it in a little.

That you ask this question suggests that you think some sum of money can compensate for centuries of total exploitation. — unenlightened

First off, no, I don't believe that, and second, should we not try to compensate people at all even if it isn't nearly enough? Do you think that no reparations is the same thing as some reparations?



I was wondering when you would turn up.

Much of Washington D.C. was built by slave labor. There is some serious back-pay owed, perhaps even to the descendants of those who were forced to work on it. Apparently documents which record who worked there still exist so it is conceivable that their descendants could be found and the US treasury pays what is owed.

But beyond that it cannot go. None of the victims nor the perpetrators are alive. Restitution is impossible. — NOS4A2

Okay, consider this:

If you, and all of your family members, and all of your friends' family members, and yours and their grandparents, and yours and their grandparent's grandparents were subjected to slavery for hundreds of years, only to be abused and treated as second class citizens even after being freed, never to see a dime in compensation for virtually all of that work, would you want your descendants to be disproportionately impoverished and derided as part of a legacy you could not have possibly changed? Or would you at least want them to be compensated somewhat for the exploitation you had suffered?

I understand that no one person has occupied the space between slavery and the modern day, but I don't think we would have to guess what they would think about it if they did: people should get paid for the work they do and compensated for the serious wrongdoings they incur - even if the capacity to do so is somewhat obfuscated by time. If you see something wrong with extending reparations to people born after the initial wrongs have taken place, then I assure you that you hold important distinctions more arbitrary than that in your head.

The damage of the slave trade and colonisation is irreparable. Reparations are for white people's benefit, to assuage their guilt; they cannot conceivably compensate for or repair what has happened. — unenlightened

If this were true, then why are the majority of people of color in favor of reparations? Would reparations not be giving the people who suffered the most from slavery and racist policies what they think they deserve? And would that not be more than just an attempt to assuage guilt if the intent were to provide these people such an outcome?

I still think the only reasonable conclusion is to implement reparations.
— ToothyMaw

I strongly disagree. For the record, I am a 72 year-old, white, liberal American. Am I correct in assuming you are also white? — T Clark

Yes, I am also white.

That one cannot draw a crisp, unambiguous causal line from the plight of a former slave to that of one of their descendants, a crack-addicted prostitute living in a ghetto for instance, is not evidence of a lack of such a line;
— ToothyMaw

Outrageous. If nothing else, this statement shows the lack of seriousness of your argument. I think most black people would be angered by using crack whores as representative of their race in modern America. — T Clark

I am using that example to represent some of the most extreme conditions - the predicaments I alluded to in the preceding paragraph - some people of color face. I do not think that it is at all "representative of their race", as I am not trying to represent a race in my argument. And you are not really addressing that argument here. Also: do you know the meaning of the word plight?

There are approximately 47 million black people in the US, including those of mixed race. How much are we going to give each of them? $10,000? That would cost a total of $470 billion dollars. How much difference would $10,000 make? Sure, it would make a big difference for many people and a very big difference for some. Would it change the racial atmosphere for the better? Would it erase the racial disadvantage? No. We'd end up back in the same world we started in with a vast well of white resentment added to what is already there. — T Clark

For me, reparations aren't just about erasing the problem, it's about justice - due compensation. It doesn't have to fix everything; it is a goodwill gesture towards making things a little righter. If we want to change the plight of people of color - especially those who have it the worst - then we clearly do in fact have to change white people's attitudes and strip down the parts of the institutions that still disadvantage them.

give white people and black people a common purpose. — T Clark

This seems a little glib. Yes, giving people a common purpose is often times an effective way of breaking down barriers, but what about when the material disparity between two groups is the result of, and is enabled by, the agenda of the dominant group? A useful ally is not necessarily a respected comrade - or even a human being treated with a commensurate amount of dignity.

We've already seen much of America kick-back against what they call "wokeness," the essence of which, as I see it, is that everything wrong is white people's fault and it's ok to treat them with contempt. — T Clark

I think most Americans don't care much about errant social justice provided it doesn't directly affect them. And note that, nowhere in this thread, nor in my OP, has anyone expressed the sentiment that white people are responsible for everything that is wrong and should be hated. Yet you felt as if you had to invoke the spooky specter of wokeness. Strange. It's almost like it's a lazy device used to bolster insubstantial arguments.

I mean, clearly no one living today is at fault for slavery, but yeah, that kind of was white peoples' fault, wasn't it? Just not yours or mine?

Maybe that's what you call justice - give them a taste of their own medicine - but it won't work. — T Clark

No, the justice is for the people most heavily affected by slavery and continued traumas. I don't think a single white person today should suffer for the crimes of any slave masters that existed before them.

:100:

Agreed. But surely people exist on a spectrum of self-sufficiency, especially once they reach adulthood? I mean we could give "self-sufficiency" a stipulative definition of, say, "the degree to which one can currently maintain oneself absent outside aid", as opposed to the commonly held definition of total self-sufficiency? You would agree that the less aid you receive and the more you manage to sustain yourself independently, the more self-sufficient you are, right? Even if you are not totally self-sufficient?

If this is so, why are you not the first and foremost to lend such? — Outlander

You have been vomiting word salad for the last three posts and seem determined not to make any serious contributions to the discussion. I'm only saying that bluntly now but rest assured that I knew you would claim me to be bereft of compassion no matter what I would say. So, I'm saying it now: you aren't engaging with me or the OP at all.

Your post begs a solution, which also seems to determine said solution as compassion and understanding. — Outlander

And I stand by that. But I also understand that there is a minimum standard for posts on this forum, and you are barely meeting it imo.

the point is that some people might not have the patience or understanding to deal with him equitably
— ToothyMaw

The problem is people appoint themselves as if they had any true authority or place to think they have the right to "deal with" let alone judge others. A gear is not a driving force, it is but a necessity. People who think otherwise best learn their place before they discover the truth that they have none other than what is given to them. — Outlander

Clearly you are determined to cast whatever I say in a bad light. When I say "deal with", I mean "interact with". I think that's obvious. And I don't think treating people equitably and with kindness is the same thing as judging them. Is it really that bad to acknowledge that someone might need a little extra help?

People who think otherwise best learn their place before they discover the truth that they have none other than what is given to them. — Outlander

I am not sure what this means, but it sounds vaguely threatening. :down:

So, judging as if his testimony is factual and would be supported by an equally intimate observation of whatever actions that led to his current predicament, it would seem in fact any will or desire to perform an action to disrupt or eliminate whatever system or "status quo" that disrupts or restricts the freedoms of those who are peacefully existing is in fact justified. My two cents, at least. — Outlander

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

That guy seems just fine. — Outlander

I'm confused. I linked the interview because he has some bad negative symptoms, not because he is a bad guy. Negative symptoms are really detrimental to people's happiness; the point is that some people might not have the patience or understanding to deal with him equitably - that is, in the same way they might treat someone with a physical disability.

So for instance, Kobe Bryant having died relatively young was a lot more probable than him dying in a helicopter crash because there are many more way for that to occur than for him to specifically die in a helicopter crash.

I'm not sure if it's always a mistake to focus on the seemingly low probability of things happening in a certain way though. For example, even if there are many ways a friend could become a millionaire, I should still be surprised that she became one by winning the lottery. Or even if there were many ways for Tom Brady to win the Superbowl vs Atlanta, we should still be surprised that he could win down 3-28 at the end of the third quarter. — Count Timothy von Icarus

What you are doing in moving from the general to specific is precisely what prescribes to make sense of the fact that perceived probabilities are often times formed in terms of categories that omit many occurrences that might produce the same reactions - in these cases surprise. So, he is not saying that we shouldn't focus on low probabilities - I think - but rather, in fact, that we are sticking closer to reality in viewing each statistical possibility in specific terms, if possible. There are questions that might have more or less answers depending upon the variables, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the perceived probabilities are likely lower than what they should be if they represent reality closely.

If I'm misrepresenting him, he'll probably correct me.

I would like to see other people's thoughts on this (especially about what makes an outcome significant, and see if I can expand this idea to a more complete set of principles regarding my consideration of probability. — Igitur

I think part of what makes an outcome significant is whether or not it can be attached to a hypothesis, much like how pointed out that the person playing cards could make a guess - that the dealer is cheating - based upon whether or not it would explain the rare occurrence of the dealer dealing themselves increasingly unlikely hands. This makes an unlikely occurrence a function of something that can indeed be verified. Otherwise, we are just talking abstract, mathematical probabilities and approximations of what is random that may not even be distinguishable in terms of a difference between reaction and effect, as you point out.

a way to work with all these other disregarded possible occurrences (and still provide an accurate representation of the probability according to this) could be to simply ignore the statistical chance of something happening that you weren't considering and only regard something as its statistical chance if you were thinking of it specifically. You would simply modify your perceived probability based on these factors. — Igitur

So instead of having a diminished idea of how rare it is for apples to fall on your head due to a perception that they may only fall from trees, you might consider specifically the rarity of instances in which an apple is dropped from a ladder onto your head and the instance in which it happens to fall onto your head from a tree. This respects the individual probabilities and also the greater probability of having an apple fall on your head.

This seems to require that probabilities are reducible merely by virtue of looking just a little harder at how one can reduce those probabilities of an occurrence into more specific parts - provided those distinct parts still result in that given occurrence. That is, for your view of the probabilities to be full. But that is probably not possible and would go beyond what can be perceived, I think.

edit: I mean that reducing the probabilities until they are no longer reducible is likely not possible

So the person playing cards is deceived by the apparent improbability of the dealer getting those two hands? I mean, the person playing cards could very well be right, and guessing that the dealer is cheating requires no evidence other than that it is an improbable outcome, which is in accordance with the knowledge that any specific hand the dealer deals themselves is incredibly improbable. I think Igitur is talking about perceptions of probabilities that are not accurate - specifically that do not take into account other things that could cause the given occurrence in question.

But epistemic probability is cool. :up:

Okay, so you are basically saying that people perceive probabilities based on how rare they perceive an occurrence to be when really the chance of getting a result that fits these perceptions is likely incongruous due to the fact that there are likely more possibilities for a given occurrence in a category than they understand there to be?

Do you see what I mean? — I like sushi

I definitely do see what you mean.

If AGI hits then it will grow exponentially more and more intelligent than humans. If there is no underlying ethical framework then it will just keep doing what it does more and more efficiently, while growing further and further away from human comprehension. — I like sushi

I'm not arguing against an ethical framework, I just think that moral realism isn't going to help kill the threat.

I guess there is the off chance of some kind of cyborg solution — I like sushi

That sounds kind of horrific.

If you are suggesting we root our ethical foundations for AGI in moral facts: even if we or the intelligences we might create could discover some moral facts, what would compel any superintelligences to abide those facts given they have already surpassed us analytically? What might an AGI see when it peers into the moral fabric of the universe and how might that change its - or others' - behavior? And what if we do discover these moral facts and they are so repugnant or detrimental to humanity that we wish not to abide them ourselves?
— ToothyMaw

I think you are envisioning some sentient being here. I am not. There is nothing to suggest AI or AGI will be conscious. AGI will just have the computing capacity to far outperform any human. I am not assuming sentience on any level (that is the scary thing). — I like sushi

I'm pretty certain AGI, or strong AI, does indeed refer to sentient intelligences, but I'll just go with your definition.

Well, yeah. That is part of the major problem I am highlighting here. Anyone studying ethics should have this topic at the very forefront of their minds as there is no second chance with this. The existential threat to humanity could be very real if AGI comes into being. — I like sushi

Yes, handing the reins to a non-sentient superintelligence or just AGI would probably be disastrous. I don't think ethics answers your question, however; it seems to me to be a red herring. Making AI answerable to whatever moral facts we can compel it to discover doesn't resolve the threat to humanity, however, but rather complicates it.

Like I said: what if the only discoverable moral facts are so horrible that we have no desire to follow them? What if following them would mean humanity's destruction?

It is pretty much like handing over all warhead capabilities to a computer that has no moral reasoning and saying 'only fire nukes at hostile targets'. — I like sushi

And introducing moral truths at the point at which AGI exists would mean betting that, of all the things that could be moral, what is moral would, at the very least, not spell destruction for us just as surely. Clearly, we could learn quite a bit from Asimov, even if he failed.

When it comes to the possibility of AGI I am most concerned with the ethical/moral foundations we lay down for it. The reason being that once this system surpasses human comprehension we have no way to understand it, change its course or know where it may lead to.

The solution seems to be either hope beyond hope that we, or it, can discover Moral Truths (Moral Realism) or that we can splice together some form of ethical framework akin to Asimov's 'Three Laws of Robotics' — I like sushi

If you are suggesting we root our ethical foundations for AGI in moral facts: even if we or the intelligences we might create could discover some moral facts, what would compel any superintelligences to abide those facts given they have already surpassed us analytically? What might an AGI see when it peers into the moral fabric of the universe and how might that change its - or others' - behavior? And what if we do discover these moral facts and they are so repugnant or detrimental to humanity that we wish not to abide them ourselves? Unless these intelligences have an exceptionally high regard for both:

a) acting morally

and

b) acting in the best interests of humanity

(both of which could easily come into conflict), we really do need to prioritize safety over blindly dashing into the formerly locked room that moral facts might occupy. I would say that the ethical foundations you are highlighting must be tentative - but sensible and robust.

Also: Asimov's 'Three Laws of Robotics' were deficient, and he pointed out the numerous contradictions and problems in his own writings. So, it seems to me we need something much better than that. I would have no idea where to start apart from what I have written above, which is definitely not sufficient.

I would also argue we should hope for a conscious system rather than some abstraction that we have no hope to communicate with. A non-conscious free-wheeling system that vastly surpasses human intelligence is a scary prospect if we have no direct line to communication with it (in any human intelligible sense). — I like sushi

I agree; that is part of the bare minimum I would say. I honestly hadn't considered AGI existing that isn't conscious, so I must be out of the loop a little.

a set like N = {30, 15, 15/2}? Does that not include a first step?
— ToothyMaw
Yes, that series has a first step, but not a last one. You can number the steps in the series if you start at the big steps. Similarly, you can number the dichotomy steps in reverse order, since the big steps are at the end. — noAxioms

Okay, so it is possible to have a first step. If I could, say, produce an equation based on the one in my earlier post that could calculate the last time interval given a smallest stipulated chunk of time, would that be a valid final step in the summation?

And would that sum not eventually terminate given a smallest sliver of time exists
If there's a smallest sliver of time, there is no bijection with the set of natural numbers since there are only a finite number of steps.

or continue indefinitely given time is infinitely divisible?
'Continue indefinitely' is a phrase implying 'for all time', yet all the steps are taken after only a minute, so even if time is infinitely divisible, the series completes in short order. — noAxioms

That was sloppy thinking and use of language on my part. Sorry.

Can we not count the intervals starting with 1
— ToothyMaw
No. In the dichotomy scenario, there is no first step to which that number can be assigned. — noAxioms

Really? What if one were to begin by summing each interval as represented by a bijective function like f(n) = 60/2^n where n is a number in the natural numbers representing the cardinality of a set like N = {30, 15, 15/2}? Does that not include a first step? And would that sum not eventually terminate given a smallest sliver of time exists or continue indefinitely given time is infinitely divisible?

And you are right anyways; I should have been clearer that I didn't think we would ever actually finish counting the number of intervals given time is infinitely divisible.

It's all good. :up:

"Tending towards infinity" means counting through the natural numbers - the set is infinite. The process has no end. — Relativist

I know, I'm saying the second part as the alternative to time being infinitely divisible.