A good spinach salad tastes better using chopsticks. Couldn't be more physically direct contact. Could be less links in the chain.

Light directly enters the eye and interacts with biological machinery beginning at the back of the eye and spreading out into the brain. Numerous biological structures are involved. I do not know the names of them all, nor do I need to. There are, and that's what matters. That's all physical interaction. How much more direct can anything be?

We have direct perceptual knowledge of our body's response to stimulation. — Michael

We know a lot about how bodies respond to stimulation. Some of it was inferred, hypothesized, tested and verified. The half second delay between seeing a 100mph fastball and that consciously registering within the batter was discovered. Blind sight, and all that too. Knowledge of our body's response to stimulation is not always acquired in the sense that 'direct perceptual knowledge' requires.

I'd agree with adding "sometimes" to the quote at the top of this post.

Our physiological sensory perception(biological machinery) is in direct physical contact with distal objects. Light directly enters the eye and lands on the structures in the back of the eyes, which are physically connected to the brain via even more biological structures. The same holds good for coffee in the mouth, fire on the skin, cake molecules in the nose, or decaying flesh in both the nose and mouth.

How do you square the physicalist standard you've required for what counts as being a constituent of experience against what's above? Do we agree on the above?

We have names for all the different parts of biological machinery that facilitates our perception of grates.

Light directly enters the eye. The grate in the floor does not. By virtue of the light, the grate, and our biology, we directly perceive the grate. The surface of the grate directly touches the skin. By virtue of our skin, and the grate, we directly perceive the grate. The hot coffee directly touches our mouth parts. By virtue of our skin, our gustatory structures, and the hot coffee, we directly taste the coffee. The cake directly enters our nose, albeit in very small molecular form. By virtue of the cake, the air, and our noses, we directly smell the cake.

It seems that that argument against direct perception amounts to a notion of "direct perception" that cannot include complex biological machinery like ours.

It's like the opponents(arguing for indirect perception) are offering naive realism(like the eyes function like a window to the world) or nothing.

I see the tree in the yard but do not believe it's there.
— creativesoul

I don't believe it is possible to actively disbelieve in something you see in front of you. Well, I know I can't at least. I also don't see that as supporting the notion that active belief is necessary in those situations. That said, I don't deny that you can talk about believing that the tree you see is there, rather than simply saying you see it there, but I think the former way of speaking is less parsimonious, even redundant... — Janus

"Redundant" is n interesting choice of terms. So, do we agree that belief is necessary for seeing the tree in the front yard?? It goes without saying that seeing a tree in the yard includes believing that something is there, doesn't it? That necessary presupposition is what makes the terminological use redundant, right?

I see the tree in the yard but do not believe it's there.
— creativesoul

I don't believe it is possible to actively disbelieve in something you see in front of you. Well, I know I can't at least. I also don't see that as supporting the notion that active belief is necessary in those situations. — Janus

Waddaya mean "actively"? If you do not actively disbelieve, then by default, you believe something is there, even before learning the name of it. We need not say "I believe a tree is there" to ourselves in order to believe we're looking at a tree. Unless we're one of those people who say they believe that they're not looking at a tree, but rather looking at a representation of one.

We agree that one need not formulate propositional belief to themselves at every moment throughout one's life in order to see trees. I'm attempting to point out that propositional belief are not the only kind. Although, any and all of our candidates will take propositional form in our report of them.

It's all about the necessary elemental constituents. That is determined and facilitated by biological machinery. Physiological sensory perception. Words are not always part of the content, despite being part of the content for each and every report thereof.

The way you're using the term "belief" cannot take all this into account.

By the way, my apologies for how the "shallow" comment came off earlier. "Inadequate" is more in line. Sometimes things do boil down to a matter of how we're using words, and there's no relevant fact of the matter to compare/contrast differing opinions with/to. It doesn't follow that all frameworks are on equal footing. Sometimes there is not a fact of the matter, but rather an abundance of them. All of them are germane. One's notions cannot - ought not anyway - conflict with such facts.

What defines them as being indirect realists is in believing that we have direct knowledge only of a mental representation. — Michael

The heater grate to my right is not a mental representation. It is a distal object. It's made of metal. It has a certain shape. It consists of approximately 360 rectangle shaped spaces between 48 structural members. The spacing is equally distributed left to right as well as top to bottom. However, the left to right spacing is not the same as the top to bottom.

The 'mental representation', whatever that may refer to, cannot be anywhere beyond the body.

According to you, all we have direct access to and thus direct knowledge about is mental representations.

Where is the heater grate?


The irony of the "bewitchment" allusion...

I've had to resort to memory aids even in areas where I used to be articulate
— Vera Mont — BC

Ah, don't feel bad. Humans have been doing that forever. Road signs. Language. Landmarks.

What are hallucinations if not an experience of a distal object without a distal object? — flannel jesus

Malfunctioning biological machinery.

The relevant disagreement between direct and indirect realism concerns whether or not experience provides us with direct knowledge of the external world and its nature. Our scientific understanding is clear on this; it doesn't. Experience is a causal consequence of our body interacting with the environment but our knowledge of that environment is indirect; we make inferences based on our direct knowledge of our own experiences. — Michael

I think what I'm offering here is relevant.

None to me. I'm trying to make sense of the conclusion that the heater grate six feet to my left is not what I see.
— creativesoul

I'm not saying that it's not what you see. I'm saying that distal objects are not constituents of experience. — Michael

So, what I see is not a constituent of my experience or the heater grate is not a distal object?

None to me. I'm trying to make sense of the conclusion that the heater grate six feet to my left is not what I see.

I'm still dyslexic... it's actually to my right.

Funny that.

Yes, distal objects are not physical constituents of experience, which is why knowledge of experience is not direct knowledge of distal objects, hence the epistemological problem of perception. — Michael

Okay. So then are distal objects mental constituents of experience?

Physical constituent then?

Okay. I'm currently drinking coffee. Kona coffee to be precise. I'm also talking to you, thinking about what you're writing, and listening to the sounds coming from the other room where some friends of mine are playing cards. I can hear the sounds of shuffling cards. I can hear the sharp smack of card faces against the table as they're being played. I can also hear the clacking of card edges against the table as players contemplate their next move. I can also hear the conversation between the players as it progresses. It includes much more than the game being played.

We're all getting hungry. We've been discussing which bread to use to make French toast. We have different kinds of bread here. Some is frozen. Some not. There are also all sorts of things in my direct line of sight; from the vantage point I'm currently positioned at in relation to all the other distal objects I can see, smell, hear, and feel from here. There's also a faint scent leftover from a particular cleaning solution that we used yesterday while cleaning the house.

Are you saying that none of that counts as a distal object?

Yes. Experience does not extend beyond the body. Distal objects exist outside the body. Therefore, distal objects are not constituents of experience.

Experience and distal objects are in a very literal physical sense distinct entities with a very literal physical spatial distance between the two. — Michael

It follows that no constituent of experience extends beyond the body.

Is that about right as well?

I look out into the distance and see a tree in the yard. There's a squirrel running around the tree, doing its thing. You're claiming that the squirrel and the tree are either not distal objects or - if they are - they are not(cannot be) constituents of experience.

Is that about right?

I don't need to believe it's there in order to see that it is. — Janus

I see the tree in the yard but do not believe it's there.

Why can't distal objects be constituents of experience
— creativesoul

Because experience does not extend beyond the body – it’s the body’s physiological response to stimulation (usually; dreams are an exception) – whereas distal objects exist outside the body. — Michael

Are you saying that distal objects are unnecessary for the response?

Well, if we take it that adiaireta, awareness of something, is a sort of knowledge, it seems like we can possess it without formulating any propositional beliefs about a thing. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Thanks for the engagement. I agree that some knowledge(that a thing exists; is there) does not require forming propositional belief about that thing. So, I agree with the above. I've not claimed that all knowledge is existentially dependent upon propositional belief. I'm claiming that all knowledge is existentially dependent upon belief of some sort or another, in some way or another. The sorts and ways are many. There is more than one kind.

Whether or not a case of awareness counts as knowledge that is not existentially dependent upon belief greatly depends upon 1.) what may be called "the object of awareness"(what it is - exactly - that one is aware of), and 2.) the biological machinery of the candidate. Awareness of some things is only possible via language use.

One cannot become aware of something that does not exist(purely imaginary things) without language use.

However, belief about the world and/or oneself is being formed long before language acquisition begins in earnest. So, I would think awareness is needed during those times. I may agree with calling some cases of awareness during such times "knowing"(that something is there).

We can have false propositional beliefs about something... — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes. We can.

I'm not sure if we can have a "false awareness" of something. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Depends upon the something.

Secondhand info exists. The recent public usage of "CRT" is evidence of how one can become aware that there is a theory named "Critical Theory" based upon false belief about the theory. If based upon false belief, and it counts as an awareness that there is such a thing as "Critical Theory", it could be said that they know Critical Theory exists. Such awareness/knowledge seems to require propositional belief though, so it's not a good example of the criterion/outline you've offered, although it seems to be a case of "false awareness".

So, at least this sort of knowledge seems possible... — Count Timothy von Icarus

I would think it's impossible to become aware of something that one does not believe exists. I do not see how one can become and/or be aware of something else that they do not believe is there.

...the total reduction of knowledge to propositional beliefs and their truth values so common in modern analytical philosophy. It seems obvious to me that I know my brother for instances, but I can know him more or less well than I currently know him. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Indeed. I've long argued against those practices.

That's the death knell of Cartesian doubt.

Until one becomes aware of their own human fallibility; until one no longer believes their own eyes; until one begins the endeavor of metacognition with a particular focus upon the shortcomings of the human perceptual capabilities; seeing is believing.

I would say 'seeing that there is something to be mimicked', 'seeing that another individual behaved in some certain way', 'seeing that someone did something or other'. Unless the case is that those things were not seen but reported by someone else, in which case 'believing' would be, for me, the apt term. — Janus

Believing another's words is one species of belief; one way to draw correlations; one way to make connections; one way to attribute meaning(in this case to the terms "belief" and "believing").

One way to talk? Sure. A bit shallow though.

the fact that he found it necessary to try and account for the interaction between mind and body through the pineal gland, is also indicative of the sense in which he treats the mind as something objectively existent. — Wayfarer

Hey Jeep.

I thought that the causal closure of the material world and the immaterial world drove the need to explain how it was that minds could effect/interact with bodies and vice versa.

If the mind was completely independent from the body and vice versa, then it would not be possible to think that one was hungry, or in pain, or any number of other reductios.

Do you believe that naive/direct realism cannot deny color as a property of objects? I mean, I suppose I do not see any reason that a position like naive realism cannot correct any flaws based upon newly acquired knowledge such as color perception. — creativesoul

I think that if they admit that colours are not properties of objects then they must admit that colours are the exact mental intermediary (e.g. sense-data or qualia or whatever) that indirect realists claim exist and are seen. And the same for smells and tastes. — Michael

I think that you've given indirect realism too much credit. I see no reason to think that if colors are not inherent properties of distal objects that the only other alternative explanation is the indirect realist one. They can both be wrong about color.

Olfactory and gustatory biological machinery work differently than vision. Light is not part of the objects we see. It helps facilitate seeing. Light does not help facilitate tasting and smelling.

Direct realists claimed that there is no epistemological problem of perception because distal objects are actual constituents of experience. Indirect realists claimed that there is an epistemological problem of perception because distal objects are not actual constituents of experience (and that the actual constituents of experience are something like sense-data or qualia or whatever).

Why can't distal objects be constituents of experience, and color not be an inherent property thereof?

Cheers. I'd rather be encouraging than discouraging. Enacting morality and all.

:wink:

You're often good at that.

Thanks for that. Interesting take on truth.

Could you explain it a bit more while applying it to the context?

The content of the cat's belief is meaningful to the cat.
— creativesoul

Sure. The meaning is just what the cat does. — Banno

Meaning is not equivalent to behaviors. The identity of indiscernibles shows that nicely.

As I just said to Janus, you and I are in near complete agreement when it comes to the OP. Best leave it there with you. I'd rather keep liking you.

:lol:

That is to draw a distinction between mimicry and mimicking for the sake of mimicking.
— creativesoul

I would say the difference there would be intention, not belief. — Janus

The term intention has very different uses, particularly between laypeople and philosophers. I'm guessing you know this already. Just thought it worth mention. It's relatively new to me. That said...

If we're using the layman's notion of intention or the philosopher's, intentionally mimicking for the sake of mimicking requires believing one is mimicking for the sake of mimicking. The object of intention(the philosopher's kind) is the mimicry in both cases, it seems to me. Although, I suppose ridicule could be the object in the deliberate cause of mimicry. The difference between mimicking without knowing one is mimicking and intentionally mimicking is the knowing part. In either case, one knows how to mimic when one mimics.

Both cases require believing that there is something to be mimicked; believing that another individual behaved in some certain way; believing that someone else did something or another.

Earlier you wrote that one without hands cannot plane a board. Strictly speaking that's not true of everyone without hands, but yes... that's the gist of the existential dependency I'm setting out regarding knowledge and belief.

I understand that this is not really germane to the thread topic, but it involves belief, and I'm a sucker for that topic.

:joke:

As far as the OP goes, you and I agree much more than disagree. It's when we unpack our respective notions of knowledge and belief that things begin to get more contentious. It seems that way to me anyway.

I appreciate ya, bruddah.

Aloha! A hui ho.

You continue to think of belief as a discreet "thing in the head", as mental furniture. — Banno

That's just not true, despite the fact that you've been charging me with it for years now. You've a clever little quip about first misunderstanding a position prior to disagreeing with it. It fits here.

We each have innumerable beliefs that we have never articulated, indeed which we never will articulate, but which nevertheless we do hold to be true. There are unstated beliefs. Each and every one of these can be set out as a proposition that is held to be the case.

Perhaps you believe that you have more than 28 eyelashes, but until now that belief has never been articulated. The belief is not a thing in your head.

I agree with most all of that. I used to reject the bit about articulation in a broad sense of rejection. I no longer reject it out of hand. I still question the truth aptness of unarticulated belief, as well as whether or not it makes sense to say one holds an unarticulated belief true - prior to articulation. Nonetheless, there's nothing here aside from that that causes me pause.

It would be absurd to suppose that each of one's innumerable beliefs exists somewhere in your mind.

Agreed.

That a belief can be put into a proposition is a grammatical point about the way the word "belief" is used. If you can't put it into a statement, then you can't be said to believe it.

Again. Agreed.

"The cat believes the mouse ran behind the tree" shows exactly that - "the mouse ran behind the tree" being the content of the cat's belief. What is not claimed is that there a thing in the head of the cat that somehow is named by "the mouse ran behind the tree". Rather there is the cat's capacity to recognise, chase, anticipate, and so on. It is humans, you and I, who benefit from setting this game out in terms of belief and intent.

Two sticking points directly above. The first is the same one hinted at earlier at the top of this reply; that you're arguing against an opponent of your own imagination, because I do not argue for spatiotemporal location of beliefs, let alone 'in the head'. I reject and vehemently argue against that sort of mischaracterization.

The second involves the content of the cat's belief. If the content of the cat's belief is the proposition "the mouse ran behind the tree", and the proposition consists of the mouse, the tree, the spatiotemporal relationship between the mouse and tree, in addition to the mouse's behaviour, then I agree. If the proposition consists of words, then I disagree. The content of the cat's belief is meaningful to the cat. Those words are not.

That's the contentious part.

I'm currently watching/studying Searle's lectures on philosophy of mind. I also recently purchased several of his books including "Mind". At least I think that's the name of it. I understand that on Searle's view, the content of the intentional state of belief is the proposition, but I do not yet agree with that. I may never.

The content of the cat's belief is meaningful to the cat. Words are not. Of that much, I'm certain. We've not even bridled that horse yet, let alone ridden it to death and flogged it afterwards. It's germane to "A Nice Derangement of Epitaphs", and 'meaning is use' cannot apply.

:wink:

Knowing and believing are language games, ↪creativesoul. — Banno

Sure, that's one way of using the terms. It's odd though, in that some language less creatures are capable of both; believing and knowing that a mouse ran behind the tree.

If that was the case prior to language use, and I see no reason to deny that, then knowing and believing are not just language games, because language less creatures do not play such things.

Either all knowledge is existentially dependent upon belief or it is not.
— creativesoul

I don't think there is an empirical matter of fact about that (certainly not a determinable one, in any case), — Janus

Oh, I completely agree. There are an abundance of them.

It's probably worth saying that one need not be aware of their own beliefs. Beliefs come first, then awareness of them. That is to draw a distinction between mimicry and mimicking for the sake of mimicking.

Sometimes, very young children are acting like others around them... in times of mimicry, that is. They are trying to do what they've seen done. Their attention is not towards the fact that they're mimicking, they're attention is on what they're doing(that counts - to us - as mimicry).

I just think we will disagree as to just where it has its roles, or to put it another way, about where it is appropriate to speak about belief being a factor... — Janus

Perhaps, but that is the interesting part of all this. How it is a factor, and in what way, as well as to what extent, etc.

:wink:

Yup, that's what I'm keeping in mind.

What are the pitfalls you warn of?

What I meant about planing boards and riding bikes is that you can watch others doing them, and then have a go, trying different things and improving with practice. — Janus

No doubt.

I see no need for any particular beliefs in that...

"In that" is not how I would put it. It's that mimicry presupposes at the very least, that the mimicker believe they are mimicking.

It's not that I'm 'framing things in terms of belief'. Rather, I'm situating belief in such a way as to revive it's vital importance to being an intentional being/agent. The church has not helped. Truth, knowledge, belief, and certainty were absconded. Many folk are repulsed by the words due to how the church used them. That's really too bad.

"Absconded" is the wrong word, but hopefully you get the point. It's been a long day.

:wink:

"Tainted" would be better.

. The notion that evolution 'progresses" is somewhat problematic. Take care. — Banno

Well, in my defense, those words left your keyboard, not mine.

"Evolutionary progression" implies process over time.

But yes, it's complicated.

I can be aware of whatever it is that is present to me right now without believing or knowing anything about it in any propositional sense. — Janus

We may not disagree there, depending on the candidate filling in the blank left by "whatever it is". I'm not fond of the notion of "proposition"...

This infatuation with evolution is new, isn't it? — Banno

It is not. I've just mentioned it more here in recent past.

Why should we kowtow to evolutionary "progress"? — Banno

The same reason we no longer seriously entertain geocentric models.

Planing a board cannot be done without a tool. A tool cannot be made without belief. Planing a board cannot be done without belief. Belief is necessary for planing boards in terms of existential dependency as well as practicality. Belief less creatures cannot know how to plane boards.

Robots can plane boards, but they cannot know how. Robots are automated tools. We can learn how to use them to plane boards, and given sufficient time and practice, begin using them without consciously focusing upon the task at hand. We can sing to ourselves while going through the motions. We can carry on complete conversations while using planers.

I think that you're getting at or pointing towards the kind of habitual muscle memory habits that develop given enough time and repetition. With that I'd wholly agree, but as "cross-purposes" implied, that's not what I was talking about.

For me an empirical fact is something that can be directly observed. That said, I think we may be talking at cross-purposes. I agree that, in the sense that everyone is aware of things, believes things and knows things that awareness, believing and knowing cannot be completely independent. — Janus

I think you're right here regarding "talking at cross-purposes".

I'm arguing from the standpoint of evolutionary progression. The safest starting point for this conversation may be the moment of conception(fertilization), although any acceptable robust notion of belief must be amenable to the evolutionary progression of the species as well; by my lights anyway.

My point is that we can be aware of a particular thing without believing or knowing anything about that thing, we can believe a particular thing without being aware of or knowing anything about that thing, and we can know how to do something without believing anything or being aware of doing the thing.

Examples may help me to grasp what you're saying here. The above, as written, seems plainly false to me. I would argue that all three candidates/examples/suggestions are false, as they are written.

Of course, we do have to be aware of what we are doing when we are learning to do something. I think it really comes down to how you want to think about it. There is not just one correct way.

The evolutionary progression of human thought and belief is not a matter of personal preference. It evolved however it has, regardless of how one wants to think about it.

Either all knowledge is existentially dependent upon belief or it is not.