Trump launched his own cute little four page website: https://www.45office.com/ — praxis

As I did expect his official page is only in English despite the fact he was the president of the most influential country of the world. Also he refers only to American people, he doesn’t care about the rest of the world despite his administration put a lot of worldwide conflicts.

and the viability of creating an Artificial Mind, and more to the point, whether such an entity may even be qualified as in possession of consciousness, or capable of encountering like forms of experience, have all been overlooked — Vessuvius

It is interesting how scientists try to find out an Artificial Mind or AI, etc... instead of developing more our consciousness or even animals minds. I guess this debate about how further we can go in terms of developing a machine which could think by itself it is quite interesting but irrelevant at the same time if we don’t understand ourselves yet. Don’t you think?

I don't think we truly have free will at all because we have to consider two important facts:
1. Rule of law (we cannot do whatever our free will dictates because it can pass the limits of so)
2. The coliving (free will would sound even selfish because is an act of pure personal interests. Nevertheless, we are forced to live in a community of group that somehow "sacrifice" our own interests to persevering the common one)

I understand and respect your points because are solid. Nevertheless, the following phrase is so interesting to point out despite you found it in Google:

Exploitation- the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work. — schopenhauer1

How can we consider someone is exploiting other? I mean, economically concept. Do you consider earning just 400 € per month working 6 days as abusive? Of course it is but these people is in a dilemma is this sitthy job or sleeping in the streets. This is the world that democracy created.

but not as being born into the human condition as a whole. Why is the assumption that being born at all to produce anything considered "good" for that person? Who is the one that gets to decide that? Why is another person getting to decide that on behalf of someone else? — schopenhauer1

I guess there are two factors here we have to point out:

1. Oligarchy implanted by the own market. If a random company with 1 Billion euros wants to exploit and abuse others for just their own interest we have to assume it even if this company has as object the things we cannot live without like tech and this stuff... money wins in our system. Have we discovered something different rather than capitalism? NO why literally are we making them even richer despite the fact we know they are abusing us? I don’t know it is curious

2. Some State's weak public affairs. Sadly, there are countries why can only survive because of them. For example, Birmania and other countries with child labour. It is abusive but somehow those States win profit with these politics. They do not care if some kids die of pollution if at least Adidas or Nike put millions of dollars/euros when their coin value is trash.

Karl Marx and his economical philosophy doesn’t not get effect because by nature humans tend to get benefit laying down others

What is a philosophical zombie?

Everything and nothing is happening and not happening, everywhere and nowhere, all at once, now, never and forever.

“It is impossible for the same thing to belong and not to belong at the same time to the same thing and in the same respect” (with the appropriate qualifications) (Metaph IV 3 1005b19–20)

- Aristotle.

I also think that repeatability in science is to check the results we got previously in our analysis. But, even further than this, repeatability could also help us to improve the hypothesis itself. If you want to make a solid statement I guess you should repeat a lot until you believe is enough proven.

According to your pleasures, I would recommend to you "the revolt of masses" by Ortega y Gasset.
I hope you could like it

There is no need to know. There is no need to prove. That's an issue born exclusively upon us, upon conscious, thinking beings. It's similar to truth. It's perplexity of our own making. We create need to know, we create issues of validation, we create issues of falsity and truth in our minds and in our conscious interactions. — daniel j lavender

Well... If you open a topic defending that "existence is infinite" I guess you should, at least, prove or argument your criteria. When we make such statements we have to provide good proofs in order to convince others.

I look out into the night sky and see countless celestial bodies. I don't know what's going on, I don't know what all is out there. While aware there are things, I haven't a clue of the specificity. But whatever it is, it is existent. And it is happening precisely the way it is happening. Regardless of my knowledge. Existence is, things are whether known or not. If it isn't — daniel j lavender

True. Agreed with this point but I guess it is important give it a chance too. You pointed out the sky and celestial bodies. We both already know that the science which is specialist in this topic is astrophysics. I guess, all the scientifics working in this aerea are professionals with good reputation who provide with proofs what is going in our universe and celestial bodies.
What would happen if they never did so? Nothing as you perfectly said. Universe will still be there. But don't you think it's beautiful give a chance and study those phenomenon?

Existence is the universal, not consciousness or thinking. Existence is whether conscious or not. Things can be without consciousness, things can be without thinking. Things can be without consciousness or thinking but consciousness nor thinking can be without things. Consciousness and thinking would be things themselves — daniel j lavender

It is true that consciousness or awareness could be something that we have to develop through the years. In this point, I didn't say that we cannot exist without awareness but how important this proof is. Imagine, there are people who never will think about this situation. Are they still existing?
Sure, they existe but do they aware of? I think not...
This why I guess awareness and the force of develop our consciousness could be a good proof of our existence. Saying both existence and awareness can act separately is even irregular...

is it not apparent consciousness, the ability to think develops gradually over time? — daniel j lavender

Yes, of course but this is indeed a good example of empiricism. How can we know what is awareness and existence itself if we never been taught of?

I've been to Europe twice, three times if you count the time my family lived there in 1952 when I was one. Most recently my brother and I went there in 2014. I've always been treated well by the people I met. I loved trying to make myself understood using my five years of high school French and one year of college German — T Clark

I am glad to read this. It is interesting that despite our politicians are always discussing each other, the citizens have fun in both continents. I guess this happens because somehow our culture and values are connected doesn't matter a few differences that could be language or customs

I just wanted to clarify here that I was saying I think your word of equilibrium is better than balance. I think it allows for a continual sense of movement and change. — Possibility

Thank you! I think both words are important to understand TTC because somehow the meaning of the book is connected to this two words.

It's one of the big reasons so many people in the world don't like us much. — T Clark

I think this is just political stuff we don't have to mix governments with people. When I was in Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois and Wisconsin everything was so awesome and I have good memories.
True, nobody knew Spanish but this made me stronger to improve my English so I ended up winning in that journey.

Erasing the negative stigma about going to a psychologist or psychiatrist. I think we would make attend to these professionals as normal issues.
Also, it is important here to point out that the States should spend more form the taxes revenues into mental health.

English is a strange language. — Possibility

It isn’t strange, it is unique! As other languages around the world. But English is important because is the basic language where we can communicate each other.

Peace and equilibrium seem to me fairly accurate descriptions of objectives, or ways towards the Tao. I think most of us agree more or less with the importance of these concepts, but perhaps not so much with the methods for achieving them. I think many people would advocate ignorance, isolation or exclusion as useful methods towards achieving a practical peace, for instance. But I don’t think this is the kind of peace that the TTC strives for - one that prefers division over interaction. So I would suggest unity as a third main objective - in the sense of acting as if one, not dissolving into a literal, singular totality. I also like that equilibrium has a more dynamic quality than balance. — Possibility

Interesting facts. I think we only can put TTC in practice if we are truly convinced about Taoism. We have to keep in mind this is literally another path of see the life and live in. Lao-Tzu gives us a lot of wisdom but it depends on us if we want this principles work. I remember that some poems even was about ruling a territory or community. I think poems like this one only cause effect if you are interested in politics and so on with the rest...
I like word you used: “balance”. Yes, it is definitely better than equilibrium. Because TTC wants somehow to put equality principles to work on. You would not see in TTC something as totalitarian as The Prince, by Machiavello.
Terms of unity is something interesting to point out too. Because you used this term in the path of trying to get all Principles by one. Yes, because this is somehow we could archive all objectives of TTC.

Yes, it should be. I guess having particular psychologists as inner fact in a true social welfare state.

Who? Citizens or public affairs ?

aspect is the mental health difficulties which have arisen during the pandemic. It is not hidden entirely because mental health services and telephone helplines have been overwhelmed completely. — Jack Cummins

Agreed and this is something that public services should take care of

We can be agree here that probably has increased domestic abuse because the offender stays more time with their wife/husband or kids. Despite this is disgusting, I would not classify it as crimes because these are different violent issues. The worst thing inside domestic violence is someone ending dead. This is exactly when we can confirm it as crime. I guess we can only consider crimes when someone steals the life of another.
As you said, there are hidden issues we do not probably know about. But I guess it has to be logical decreasing the gap of murders because we are living in a period of time with lack of relations (supposedly).
Nevertheless, it could be the ratio went up for issues we don’t truly yet.

Which country is where the crime rates are decreasing?

I think not. I guess this happens due to Covid. Everybody is in home or go out the less possible. So... with less contact between citizens, less crime ratio then (Probably)

I don't think you meant 'pretend' as in to 'to give a false appearance', did you ?
I see the Spanish 'pretender' can have different meanings: to aim, to claim, to profess'.
A case of a 'false friend' ? — Amity

Yes, pretend in Spanish is a “false friend” word. I didn’t mean “to give a false appearance” but the verb “to claim”
Sometimes we have to be careful about different words meanings :sweat:

I’m thinking perhaps we see Taoism as either monist or idealist. I tend towards the monist perspective, myself. That may be why my interpretation often seems so out of step here. — Possibility

Interesting analysis. We are agree in one important point: translation of TTC depends a lot about the way of understanding it because those authors tried their best to give us a book similar or at least closer to what Lao-Tzu thought back in the day. This is the main reason why sometimes I enter into this thread to ask and share my doubts with you because my version probably is insufficient. My TTC version doesn’t even have commented section. There are just the poems except an interesting beginning about a friendship between Tu-Fu and Lao-Tzu. Nevertheless, I think is beautiful and amazing how we, persons from different countries, are sharing thoughts about a poem thousands of years old.

Going back again with your perspective: I

it - so perhaps the TTC itself is an idealist structure, but that’s not the same thing. — Possibility

This is why I pretended to say previously that TTC is pure idealistic symbolism. The structure of TTC is (just my humble interpretation) the Principle that can be also named as “world” or the the thing that emanates everything, etc... because Lao-Tzu puts some metaphor to at least trying to get these objectives: peace (this is why in some verses talks about a the difference between a good or bad savant can lead to be in wars or not) equilibrium (when talks about the Principle itself and how we interpret it in the most balanced position possible). Again, these are my interpretations probably I am wrong.
You perfectly explained that obviously TTC is idealistic. This is why I guess crashes a lot in my empirical point of view of life. Probably, I should take TTC as a Sui generis principle like unique trying to not mix it in other philosophical views.

A good and inspirational teacher makes all the difference in the world — Amity

Yes it is so important having good teachers and a quality education system. This is the base for a good society. I remember back in that day (2014/2015) the minister of education wanted to remove philosophy from “selective exam” (it is a special exam where we have to pass if we want go to university). We were debating about it during hours and ended up about the conclusion that without philosophy a society can be in decay.
After 6 or 7 years I see it now. We are in decay...

It is admirable what you are doing to share your translation and your interpretation.
It is a difficult text in any language. But worthwhile to engage with, I think. — Amity

Thank you so much. If I do so is because a sad context: the community of philosophy here in Spain is mediocre... (Probably because is still a traditional/catholic country, hmm).
I had a good teacher in school. He taught us philosophy through texts from different authors until I enter university. Since then, I never met someone who loves philosophy like him (or me hehe). So, I thought I had to try something so I started to find English speakers/thinkers that ended up bringing me here, in this forum. Hopefully, I finally found a good website like this after years of searching.

Would you consider yourself a Taoist ? — Amity

I think not at all because Taoism tend to be ideal. I respect and like the poems but somehow I only believe if I live it. I guess this is why I always like empiricism.

Thank you Amity for your response.

.

Re: 'advances when he turns back'.
Mitchell:
The Master stays behind;
that is why she is ahead.
She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them.
Because she has let go of herself,
she is perfectly fulfilled. — Amity

Yes! Helps a lot. I like the verse your shared. I guess it is better than mine. I wanted to translate it with my own vocabulary or brief use of dictionary because Google translate doesn’t translate it properly I think...

I don't know but think your suggestion of the principle of omnipresence seems right. — Amity

Thank you really. I thought this because some notes I read in a Spanish page of interpretation and he was speaking all the time of “be” and “not be” at the same time or “not act” but at the same time “receive everything” as it says: She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them.
So, I thought, this sound like omnipresence.

Verse VII

If the sky and the ground last forever is due to they do not live for themselves.
Following this example, the savant advances when he turns back. When he neglects, he take care of him. As he doesn’t seek his benefit, everything tends to be in his benefit

I don’t know if I have translated accurate. But I like this verse because I guess (just my interpretation) that Tao is developing here the principle of omnipresence. When the poem says “advances when he turns back” I think it is referring to either Principle itself or our knowledge.

Help?

How much extra would you pay to have an actual bartender mix your drink rather than a very reliable drink-mixing machine? Is beer better if you can chat with a live bartender? I'd say, definitely -- live person, please. — Bitter Crank

Agreed. Of course I prefer human jobs or at least being with natural workers. You put the perfect job example here: bartender.
Sadly, these kind of jobs will suffer lack of stability in the future due to AI. I would prefer being around humans not only for a lively experience but an ethical criteria.
We cannot create a big unemployment ratio for those which have "low academical level" just because is cheaper having AI

Will automation render workers superfluous or irrelevant? — Bitter Crank

Yes. Sadly this what will happen in the future. Probably a lot of jobs we are consider as ordinary today will be extinguished in some years. I guess those automation machines would attack practical jobs as waiters, manufacturers, farmers, etc... just because their bosses or businessmen will want have something or someone to make exactly the same but cheaper. It is interesting this fact because they already do so... if we go to Bangladesh or India most of the businessmen go there due to cheap manufacture and child labor. But with automation machines they would produce everything in their own country and FREE.
So yes... it will make disappear a lot of jobs or at least make them irrelevant.

An example of the labor theory of value would be if a t-shirt takes half the time to make as a hat, the hat would be priced at two times the t-shirt.

It is true this is an interesting theory about Marx but I think he forgot something important according to value: material and handmade. Probably this t-shirt took half time to made it but imagine is made of good cotton and with hands of professional. This is forced to be more expensive than the hat.

I'm a bit rough on game theory, now in my early 30's; but, am saddened that homo economicus has been reduced to this automatic strategos looking out for who's #1. While in college, a 120 IQ guy told me that Europe works to live and American's live to work. — Shawn

It depends a lot the breach between north and south European countries but yes, this is an interesting point of view

.

If any of the above is true, then how the fuck do we get out of this dogmatization of human behavior through "game theory" — Shawn

I would sound like a dreamer but I guess the only way possible is trying to develop a new economical system. You clearly explained previously that one of the nature human interests is to develop, at least some profit. There are some countries which are happy with this system because it helps them a lot. But others, obviously not.
If we want another system and then changing the human behaviour, we have to try to change our educational system. Since Spinoza method, we are humans made to be practical not intellectual.
When you are practical, you want to be the number one in everything. What if we try and change this values? Probably we would get a different human behaviour.

The right or opportunity of opt in different alternatives.

According to Britannica: Free will, in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.

I guess you were asking for the concept.

True. We are limited by everything because we are by nature limited humans. Nevertheless, I think this also should be motivated us to improve our knowledge.

Example?

What about the lovely/worthy ones?

You can't save everyone — Huh

Yes. Sadly. At least try it

How do I use qoutes? — Huh

Select the text and then should appear a little box with “quote” function.

if you had to choose between saving yourself or save another you wouldn't show mercy and the law is even on your side right? — Huh

You are speaking now about life choices. It depends a lot. I guess I will leave my life for my parents one but not for a random one. This is a complex situation because law is supposedly to defend a life at all costs not sacrificing one to get other. This is a dramatic scenario and the worst possible dilemma.

Because we need always an authority to reinforce those principles. We, the humans in a structured jungle, need organisms to embraced what we are debating about. If we remove these, we automatically enter into chaos because human is by nature so selfish and tend to hurt others

Just because your empathetic doesn't mean you'll show mercy. — Huh

This is why we need courts and law to at least reinforce it or preserve it