And just as those physical sciences have over time largely supplanted religious authority in the educational social role, so too I hold that these ethical sciences should in time supplant state authority in the governmental social role, as I will elaborate upon in a later thread. — Pfhorrest

I wish we can see it one day. We already did the first step of supplanting science and ethics instead of religion/clergy authority. This is the begging to at least starting to finally coming back to Greek or Roman education system (the best I ever heard of).
To be honest with you I do not believe in the State and the governors but yes somehow we need it because we have the risk of living like a jungle without authority... nevertheless I have a sceptical view on governance because they do whatever to climb in the top of the power instead of point equally principles to all the citizens. I guess it is the truest representation of natural selfishness or competitiveness.
But, implanting a ethics role or principle in our society not only will stop governors but we will finally reach happiness. A rare gift demanded in society. We live in a paradox of modern success where the people know how to get a job because the State says so but they don’t know how to be happy... interesting.

Philosophers (at least in Ancient Greece) wanted two important things with the power of arguments: ethics and happiness.
Nevertheless, the real life that is like a jungle, only wins the argument from the power doesn’t matter if it is empty.

can one say they are indifferent? — Warren

If you are referred tho this quote as all of those who don’t want follow the masses in the modern era or post modern era, yes I guess there are a lot of people which can say they act indifferent towards modernity because they don’t like it all or they don’t want to.
Perhaps that’s they key of being indifferent.

Martin Heidegger — Pantagruel

If you don’t mind I want recommend you an interesting book called Heidegger and a hippo walk through those pearly gates. by Thomas Cathcart and Daniel M. Klein.
It is about the role of death in a philosophical point of view.

1. The first duty of a state is to defend (militarily?) its citizens. — John Davis

They first duty of a state should be provide employment and food to their citizens.

In my view this has improved somewhat: at least when Turkey opened it's borders (just prior the Covid outbreak last year) for the next influx of migrants, Greece shut the border down and the EU stood behind the country — ssu

the big problem in my view is Libya. Morocco, Algeria and Tunis can somehow co-operate with the EU (with a lot of haggling, yes), but the failed state of Libya is the real problem. Or if Algeria or Morocco descends into anarchy, which wouldn't be nice. — ssu

Turkey when they want can be a really developed country. I guess when Erdogan opens up their frontier is just to be cocky with EU and trying to make them remember how important is Turkey in the geopolitical context. They are literally the open door for all Asia but somehow they usually act shitty towards Greece and this is not worthy at all because EU will be always in the Greece’s side.
But... this is not the same as you explained previously when you have in the frontier countries as Morocco or Libya. They give up in democracy and diplomacy. I guess for Mohammed VI it is successful mocking Spain or Portugal with a lot of people and then diving the whole country. The Spanish police officers make the best they can against all the immigrants. I guess open so free the doors isn’t the solution at all... this is why I don’t understand when some European countries try to be “multicultural” when they already live in a bubble called social welfare state

Don't try to build something that won't be, which won't work and be happy on what you have. Start from admitting that EU is basically a confederation of independent states, not an union controlled by a center. — ssu

I don’t even see EU as a confederation. I only see it as big bank which helps the franco-german axis.

If the population is hungry is due to the Prince devours excessive sums.
If the population is reluctant is due to the Prince acts too.
If the population exposes themselves to the death is due to they love too much the life.
The one who doesn’t make anything to live, is more savant than the one who is concerned to live.

Verse 75.

Dissatisfaction drives Humanity. — New2K2

Perfect point. Also the nature is humans is being so selfish. They will never been fulfilled because humans don’t know how we can be fulfilled. That’s why we call it “desires” because it is something in our stimulus perception of selfishness.
Probably some people barely can afford food each month but they desire a Play Station or a brand new mobile. It is selfish. When they would get those then they would want a new house, etc...
It is impossible for the human’s desires to be fulfilled.

And for countries like Portugal and Spain, they don't care about Russia at all, especially when you have such problematic neighbors on the North African side of the Mediterranean — ssu

Thanks for understanding us. Yes, we have a big problem in the North African countries, specially Morocco and Libia. Nobody deserves die in middle of the sea trying to do something or go to Spain/Italy. Their governments are so corrupt that make a lot of mafias which literally traffic with citizens and in the most cases they will end up dying in the Mediterranean Sea...
This is why is so funny when some Nordic countries say to Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy that “we must have more solidarity” really? But how? It is a complex situation having this kind of dangerous frontiers.
So yes, seeing this issue for me as a Spaniard, Russia is not a big problem for my country or Europe despite as you perfectly said it is impossible to reach a collaboration of how the history shows us the rivalry between EU and Russia because as you say:

the EU has big problems to create a coherent Russia policy. This also is a prime example why the EU being the US of Europe simply doesn't work. — ssu

No. Exactly. EU being US will never work towards Russia policies...

Interesting.. what would that look like? — schopenhauer1

It could be as a legal document full of conditions where somehow the State would be part of it as an insurance so if the parents completely make the life of the kid so hard the State or justice can help him/her.
For example, the family is broken. Then, the kid is born despite their parents signed the paper. Later on, the public service could take part of it providing a good education or at least not leaving the kid in abandonment stigma

people can't even remember to use a condom but you want them to read the fine print of a legal document — darthbarracuda

Well but with this legal document we can create something like an insurance to those kids whose parents are not responsible enough.

Third, they wouldn’t sign it. — NOS4A2

They wouldn’t sign it then they are not ready/qualify to have kids.

Interesting. But I have a few questions.

parent had to sign a statement that said — schopenhauer1

Who would control this? A judge or notary? Also imagine they have kids without signing this statement.. which kind of punishment we should consider? Jail or compensation with interests?

Back again to your question I will say yes. It probably would prevent a lot of births because most of the people tend to have kids without consideration or responsibility. They just don’t care about what can happen to the kid. They are not responsable for the new human being created. Probably if somehow we can read this statement to them they would reconsider it and think more deeply about the topic and circumstances.

cannot be timeless, one of your starting points is necessarily the assumption that time and space came into existence by chance. — Tombob

Probably. It could be as you explained to me. But all of these terms are just human creations. Universe was and will be there despite human existence. We just established some criteria to understand what is around us. Something like time and space are so abstract if we compare it with universe. For example, when NASA says a random star could be 1,000 years of distance is just an order we put. That star was there in the vast universe and will be. It doesn’t matter at all the time/space but humans need it to understand all this complexity.
Here, the finite are the humans. The infinite the universe.

the idea on why time and space exists — Tombob

Time and space exists because we humans need to put an order inside our chaos. These are complex and abstract concepts. Living a life without both time and space would be very difficult because we are used to live like this since we are born. I don’t know if it is good or flawed how we see the time and space considering how vast the Cosmos is (amazing).

If everything originates from an infinite state: everything that has existed, exists and will exist has always existed. This leads to the universe being deterministic. — Tombob

True. It is completely determinism. But I would like to debate with you if “everything” as you say could be timeless. I guess this another character we just give to “everything”. It always been there and will be. Our time perception passes but inside everything don’t because it is like an omnipresence subterfuge. Universe will be still there during the centuries. We the humans will not. We are the deterministic ones.

what has your thoughts been around this time of life, being the 30's? Was it a difficult time for you or just kind of finding your place in society by then and getting along with it? My 20's were really the worst period of my life.

@Shawn

I am 23 years old (well I am close to 24 because my birthday is the next month). Some people say I sound like an "adult" when I say that I no longer have ideals or beliefs in the long run. I just work/study trying to get a properly life without employment problems or whatever, but I gave up trying to find a place in the society since I was 18 because I don't believe in communities neither zoo politikon or families (probably I am quite anarchic or Bakuninst).
Fortunately I can say my early 20's are going "good" and I don't think they are worse than others. Nevertheless I never had a good era thinking about it deeply. As teenager everything sucked but my adulthood is not going as good as I expected. Probably this is the problem. A lot of expectations instead of having the feet in reality.

I've always said that there was a brief window of opportunity when Russia could indeed have been open to join the West,

As you said one of the big fails was giving the rule of West to politicians that were so mediocrities like Bush senior. But what is pretty interesting here is how Russia is still dominant in Europe. I think their role is very important despite they are not members of the EU. I guess they do not even need it. Russia has a lot of supplies like oil which are needed it in Europe so I think it is actually EU who depends a lot from Russia. Also their geographical scenario where has frontiers in Europe and Asia. I wish a EU more connected with Russia or Kremlin but it looks like hard to reach it and each European country can only make business or diplomatic affairs with Russia by their own. Back in the day one of the governors of my country, Jose María Aznar, made an agreement with Putin about householder which wanted buy some properties along the Spanish beaches trying to promote the Russian investment. I think they did it good because there are a lot of russians who bought those (fortunately, we not only have European market...)

Who better to promote communism than those never haven seen or experienced it.

True. Here in Spain we never experienced communism but there a lot of people angry with the monarchy and system so they think is a necessity implant communism or at least change the State into a socialist criteria...

Perhaps, I am spending too much time thinking... — Jack Cummins

When you are thinking you are not spending time :) I also spend time thinking in my existence and another circumstances which are around me. Your topic is interesting because it makes us to admit we don’t certainly know what is afterwards. Probably when some philosophers as Nietzsche said “God has dead” is referred to there is nothing after death.
Another perception I usually think which is connected to this one is the time itself. Life can be long and short at the same time. It scares me a little bit how slowly we are driving to this subterfuge of what the futures holds when the life passes away.

Yes. This kind of love is flawed. Then, it also depends in which person we are talking about. Love is so abstract than there are people who will never experienced it. This is why I want to point out that probably love is like a lottery. Those who win the abstract concept of believing in love is amazing and unique.
Probably this is the reason why I do not believe in love. I felt hurt and pain. I don’t want experience that trauma again in my life. Personal decision

I don't know what version Javi was using: — T Clark

I was using a Spanish version from Luis Racionero. I tried to translate it in the most accurate English possible. Nevertheless, I’m going to type the verses in Spanish just if you want to translate it.

Cuando reina el Principio (al ser perfecta la paz), los caballos de guerra trabajan en el campo
Cuando se olvida el Principio (al estar en guerra la orden del día), se crían caballos de batalla hasta en los arrabales de las ciudades

Because our educational system is flawed. They do not teach us how to get happiness and self-confidence. It looks like we are forced to live with others. I guess it is just a trap. We can work hand by hand but there are a lot of people who actually wants to have kids because their lives are somehow empty.
Having kinds nowadays is quite selfish

(a great American tragedy). — synthesis

Good novel. I remember read it in a big book called “grandes maestros americanos” (Great American Masters)

Antinatalism. One less kid born is one less dependent. Peace. — schopenhauer1

Yes. This is the principle which the future should hold. Less natality less problems. Less humans less conflicts in the world. Scientists say my country will lost 10 million citizens in the next decades because the lack of natality. What a good notice.

However, many people do believe in the existence of beings without physical bodies.

I believe in this criteria but I guess we do not have developed our science to discover it yet. So it is free to interpretation and I think it is interesting debating about it.

I think Xi Jinping is failing in some points because he is showing how evident China wants to control the world. Check out how they are already working in Africa or Latinoamerica. Also the amazing fact of how they ended up in Mars. So they are powerful but now is so evident and people is getting angry because of them. Another example could be covid-19. Everything of this chaos started in China but now they are quite again while the rest is suffering. Imagine trying to make a movement against China... I guess nobody actually can't. But this, somehow is making the people starts hating or rejecting them when it is literally impossible.
Back in the day we did not know so much about China and their issues. Somehow they were covert. Now we can know everything about them and the Hong Kong political conflict. I guess being in the target so much can affect negatively in the long run but we don't know because China is always making clever moments.
Yes, sadly for Russians, perestroika was a big fail. Nevertheless it is interesting how always they avoid "European market" or the Euro itself. They don't want be part of it. This shows how powerful Russia is despite the fall of socialism/communism in 1991. It is country we still have to consider as very important in the rule of the world.

Chinese banged their head on the wall enough to understand that the ideologically pure Marxism-Leninism simply didn't work. How dare they!

@ssu

True. Very important point. Deng Xiaoping was clever making this statement. I guess this is way China started creating a powerful method to be in the rule of the world. Other communist countries did not make this for example Cambodia or Cuba. They are isolated in a global world so this is why their socialism is failing.
China has a ferreous system. I guess they changed everything about what communism/socialism should looks like in the Marx eyes.

Interesting question. It is complex to explain. I guess it would looks like "air" or atoms just flowing in the sky or cosmos. I admit this is so intangible. But the interesting fact here is if we would have some kind of awareness. I guess without awareness we can't exist after death or even how or body would look like at all. Cogito ergo sum
This example is important: Some people before death they write in some deeds they would like to be buried in a garden so afterwards a tree is raised there. It is beautiful but at the same time important because it shows the power of our life after the death comes.
Never forget we are afraid of death because we do not know how will be the body at the end. We can only speculate about.
So, in this fact I guess our body will be like some organic atoms flying around.

Immortality could be one of the most painful punishments. We are born to die because we are organic existences which have a cadocous period. I remember this situation in Hermann Hesse "Steppenwolf" where the main character is judged to being immortal and the he considered this is probably the worst thing can happen to you.
Is it possible that after death we have a life? I do not know because is one of the most important question in our era. What happens after you are dead. Here I questioning myself if it is possible have awareness after all has passed away. I mean, if that somehow world or "Cosmos" provide us the feeling or remember our past lives, what we lived or who we are.
Imagine living this life and then for nothing because when you die you can lose awareness and then it looks like living it isn't worthy at all
It is an interesting debate trying to understand what mysterious path is afterwards you have lived.

Isn't it a little extreme to let such a small group try to dictate whether or not a person can denounce all gender? — TiredThinker

Welcome to modern times. The masses control everything now. We are no longer depend in some classic bipartisanship, this is the century where the masses which once were in the street are now in the power taking decision like “non binary” or denouncing all the gender.

I get your point. But it sounds so positivism. I do not deny love because I don’t receive it. I just deny it because is an abstract concept created to explain weird perceptions we have about others in our life context. Call it love or whatever but it could end up being so hurtful or toxic because when you are in love with someone you are not being objective with him/her because you are acting blind because of love...
I don’t understand what is beautiful about this.

Why do Australians accept the authority of the state? — frank

Because is a developed country which believes in the rule of law due to how good the system works.

didn't choose to live a life here. That is something others - my parents - have made me do. — Bartricks

our parents have violated our rights and have voluntarily exposed us to the risks of living. — Bartricks

Determinism (?). Anyways, it depends a lot of how lucky you could be. Nobody chooses to be born. But also not anyone has a risky life. Others born in a wealthy/lovely life, others born in a dangerous place and then they will be in risk the rest of their lives. So I guess you are defending that the fact of not choosing to be born is a duty that our parents have to being punished for us or the state as a punishment.
Ok... but imagine this fatalism. Your kid is dead since the birth. What can happen here? Who is guilty of this situation? Because you are typing that every pregnant woman will have healthy kids, etc... but the reality is hardest than this.
So I guess being born in a situation where you actually can talk through a forum is a gift which is worthy to paying for.

how does one live in the face of this knowledge? Is life even worth living in light of this view? — I don't get it

I think is worth living. Life is like a mountain we have to climb. The hardest is the better in this context. Everyone wants to improve whatever is around them. I don’t say it is innate but sometimes it looks like humanity in their nature wants to improve. Having the feeling of not changing to the better could be even counterproductive for our development.
I guess when you say

Things such as air, food, water, shelter, family, friends, praise, affection, acceptance, status, career, land, possesions,

you are somehow wrong. Everything is not related to this tangible things.
The most important thing we want always to improve is our knowledge. Thanks to this, look everything has changed for the decades.

Love is an abstract aspect. Someone live it others don’t. If you are living a feeling related to love congratulations because this is rare to perceive. It looks like a primary perception when you feel it. Everything looks good but love can end up hurting you a lot.
I have not discovered love yet. But I am not searching of it yet because I do not believe in it.

Entonces no tendrás problemas en absoluto.
I guess you will not have any kind of problems.

Un gran saludo a Perú desde Madrid.

but you are making me wonder if that university accepts students who aren't from Spain,

Yes. They accept international students. But if you are from Anglo-Saxon country I guess you have to present some "papers". For example, if you passed high school, the marks, criteria of the quality etc... All that documentation stuff (I was being asked for this stuff back in the day too)
Well you are free to send a message if you want here: infounedatadmdotuneddotes

Also the official page: https://www.uned.es/universidad/inicio.html

Preconceived notions invalidate

We do not have anything preconceived. It all comes from experience and learnings (empiricism)
There is not nothing innate

True they do not have "clases presenciales" because supposedly it is made for someone who is working and wants to study at the same time. I think it is a good criteria to help those who can't go to class

Yes. It is one of the hardest universities in Spain. Their content has a lot of quality related to scientific research so the reputation is good.
My mum did the PhD in Criminal law there and I remember it was full of clever people and the process was very tough.

Why where those two so important if both got it all so wrong? What wre the benefits of their mistakes? I am trying to find a good reason for children to respect those two philosophers

@DeGregePorcus

They are important because Thales and Anaximenes were the first thinkers of our era or occidental thought. Philosophy was born in Greece because they did not have a clear religion so they were dree to debate or think of everything. This base is so important to evolve as a human. They posted the bases of how to develop our human knowledge. It is true that probably their criteria looks like so simple but it is still important. When Thales said the beginning was water or Anaximenes was air they are not wrong at all... We can't life without those. Water and air (oxygen) is important. This is the reason why they started a fundamental theory: Believe in power of knowledge and explain what is around us instead of myths or "God"

Hello! Welcome abroad.

It is interesting meeting a teacher who teaches philosophy to Kids. I guess it is a complex challenge but beautiful. I think the best way of teaching Thales and Anaximenes is through some pictures of what each philosopher established in the Ancient Greece.
For example, if I think about Thales I will show a huge ocean and explain with metaphors or basic words to make understand them why Thales thought water is the beginning
If we are speaking about Anaximenes I will put a picture of an island in the far away. Why? Because that's represents air. The horizon. Distance between us and the unknown. This is why air is so important to us. Also as Anaximenes defended we cannot live without it. So you can put the example of just breathing.

These are random ideas but I guess the point is trying to teach philosophy to Kids through pictures and visual examples.