What an incredibly racist thing to say — synthesis
Oh dear, yet another person who doesn't know what racism is. Gawd help us. — creativesoul
If you threatened me with fines for not promoting free speech, using the exact same words as the government, I’d laugh in your face. Same words, different result. How do you square that circle? — NOS4A2
There's no need to establish what is, empirically the case. — counterpunch
The government has announced plans for a "free speech champion" to ensure universities in England do not stifle freedom of speech and expression.
The champion will regulate matters such as "no-platforming" of speakers by universities or student unions.
But groups representing the sector are cautious, saying universities need to keep their "institutional autonomy".
The National Union of Students says there is "no evidence" of a freedom of speech crisis on campus. — counterpunch
I'm not an advocate of free speech as it's understood - the liberty to say whatever you want, to whomsoever you want, wherever and whenever you want. As you can see such a conceptualization of free speech is basically hostage to people's whims and fancy and it has, if history is a reliable witness, caused more problems than solved them. I'm afraid going down that road will spell trouble for all of us. — TheMadFool
And this of course is stupidly wrong.The law, at least in the US, is that the government cannot suppress one's speech. — Hanover
You said it was a balance of harms. How do you propose to establish harms if not empirically? Guesswork? Shall we do an augury? I'll get the sheep's entrails... — Isaac
You’re right. Cancel culture is a huge problem, and it is forging a generation who fear ideas. I just think there are better ways to defend free speech than let the state violate it. — NOS4A2
I don’t trust that a “free speech champion” should compel people to advocate for free speech under fear of fine and sanction. That seems to me the opposite of free speech. — NOS4A2
And it’s not a question about whether a university ought to give a platform to fools, but weather a university should bend to the pressure of protesters and deny both the rights of a speaker and those who wish to see him. — NOS4A2
For a few reasons, the discussion here could become vague and unproductive. Without the exact context, the current government vs. universities confrontation can easily be framed as a brute political intervention: the government tries to impose its own arbitrary rules on universities and knock down their autonomy.
Also, it may look obvious that it intends to determine the content of applying the freedom of speech. So, could you briefly outline your vision of the actual context of the current collision? Due to the Brexit and the COVID pandemic, the UK would’ve currently experienced an intensification of the spectrum of social and political conflicts. — Number2018
But I don’t like the idea that universities should be legally required to actively promote free speech for the same reason I don’t think they should be legally required to actively promote Marxism. When the state compels people to promote a certain stance under the threat of sanction we have entered the realm of censorship. — NOS4A2
It's a human right, a cornerstone of western civilisation, and fundamental to academic integrity. — counterpunch
When the state compels people to promote a certain stance under the threat of sanction we have entered the realm of censorship. — NOS4A2
Freedom imposed by law with legal penalties for not obeying its strictures is tyranny in double-think. — unenlightened
That's a concern to me as well, as I noted previously, at least as a matter of definition. What will constitute promotion of free speech under the law? It happens defining "promotion" will involve defining "free speech" as well.
Well, just what does it mean to say free speech is a "human right"? Does it mean the state should be prohibited from restricting it? Does it mean that other people should be prohibited from restricting it, by the state? Does it mean that institutions, as opposed to individuals, should be prohibited from restricting it? What would constitute a violation of the human right of free speech? What would be the exercise of the human right of free speech? If we're unable to define a human right we shouldn't insist there is one. — Ciceronianus the White
I don’t know much about the UK education system, so I’m not quite sure what their measures would exactly entail, or how much the government gets to decide curriculum. But I don’t like the idea that universities should be legally required to actively promote free speech for the same reason I don’t think they should be legally required to actively promote Marxism. When the state compels people to promote a certain stance under the threat of sanction we have entered the realm of censorship. — NOS4A2
Then what events are words the cause of exactly? — NOS4A2
I know when you’re struggling when you begin to pad your arguments with ridicule. — NOS4A2
I suggested, that when we argue this out, we will ultimately arrive at the principle of greatest equal liberty — counterpunch
When everyone's interests and rights are taken into account and averaged out, that's what we end up with — counterpunch
Again, how to you measure the interests of populations far removed from your own without any empirical information about them?
You're basically just suggesting that you should sit in your ivory tower and pronounce "We shall ban speech A because I've had a bit of think about it and I reckon it will have the effect of removing liberties to too great an extent, but we shall allow speech B because (after a coffee) I had another little think and it seems to me that it won't have that effect". I know this will come as a deep shock to you, but we're all just a bit reluctant to run the world based on effects an uneducated layman reckons might come about... — Isaac
In order to ensure equal liberty you must a) measure the liberty each party has, and b) establish how much liberty the action in question removes/gives to each party. Both are empirical matters. — Isaac
How do you propose to measure liberty? — counterpunch
How do you propose to measure liberty?
— counterpunch
How do you propose to ensure equality of you don't? What would equality mean in an un-quantified variable? — Isaac
This is a theoretical problem to which we have a ready answer. Ensure everyone has freedom of speech. Why is that a problem for you? — counterpunch
Because ensuring it clashes with many of the other liberties we want to ensure everyone has. — Isaac
There is no right to not be offended in the declaration of human rights. — counterpunch
There is no right to not be offended in the declaration of human rights.
— counterpunch
Who said anything about being offended? — Isaac
Because ensuring it clashes with many of the other liberties we want to ensure everyone has. — Isaac
OK - I'll ask. Many other liberties? What do you mean by that? — counterpunch
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