Regarding magic, it is important to notice it was considered a low and punishable practice by pagans. You can get a sense of this in Apuleius The Golden Ass. Apollonius of Taiana was himself accused of such practice and barred at least two times by pagan priests on the grounds of being a magician, the last at the oracle of Trophonius. Accusations, I believe, founded in his display of supernatural powers and his involvement with the Persian Magi. It is possible some people, including philosophers, were genuinely involved in such practices, in other cases it might have been mostly the result of calumnies by sycophants.

It's true these practices have often infiltrated religions and philosophies despite of condemnation by the same.

Alexandra David-Neel in her preface Mystics and Magicians from Tibet mentions the process of fusion of a true philosophy with such practices concluding that the name Lamaism is more suited to Tibetan religion than Buddhism.

Well, magic or "theurgy" was certainly practised but it tended to be a secret tradition and was probably of secondary importance in philosophy. Astronomy and astrology, on the other hand, were virtually inseparable from a philosophy that saw the Cosmos as a living being (or full of living beings) and saw the soul's ascent to the stars as its goal.

This is why it is legitimate to assume that philosophy may have accompanied astronomy and astrology.

Basically, the attested historical facts are as follows:

There is a well-attested Platonic tradition from Plato to the early centuries of the Christian Era.

There is Platonic influence on Christian philosophy and mysticism.

There is Platonic (or Christian Hellenistic) influence on Islamic philosophy and mysticism, and the emergence of Sufism in about the 8th century CE.

Also in the 8th century, the Greek word sunaphe that was also used by Plotinus and others in the sense of union of the soul with God, appears in the Sanskrit text of the Ishvara Gitā (The Song of the Lord).

At the same time, Indian philosophical and mystical currents showing parallels to Platonism emerge, e.g., Kashmiri Shaivism in the monistic tradition of Abhinavagupta which flourished from the 9th to the 13th centuries.

Close parallels between Platonism and Indian traditions can be identified not only on the level of philosophical vocabulary but also at the level of spiritual practice. See, for example, Michael Wakoff, “Awaiting the Sun: A Plotinian Form of Contemplative Prayer”.

PS You're probably referring to "black magic" there which is a rather different thing. That's not what I was talking about.

PS You're probably referring to "black magic" there which is a rather different thing. That's not what I was talking about.

There is a wide spectrum of magic practices, some being close to religion and others to what goes by the name of black magic or sorcery. If you read Augustine of Hippo (The City of God) he mentions "angels (gods) who come down to the theurgists, attracted by magical art of some kind". However, this mustn't be confused with black magic or sorcery in the negative sense. In a philosophical context, "magic formulas" may be employed in some traditions to invoke the help of divinities or to remove obstacles created by certain spirits, i.e. for spiritual not nefarious purposes.

One of them was होरा horā astrology which apparently comes from Greek ὥρα hora hour, period of time, degree of the zodiac. — Apollodorus

Why do you think it has a Greek origin?

Thomas Burrow, The Sanskrit Language:

“Occasionally words were introduced from outside India, e.g. from Iranian (vārabāna- ‘breast plate’) or from Greek (horā ‘hour’)” p. 43

Moriz Winternitz, History of Indian Literature (Geschichte der indischen Literatur), Vol III:

“[…] der vom Horoskop handelnde Zweig der Astrologie, […] nach dem Griechichen Horā genannt wird, ganz under dem Einfluss der Griechichen Astrologie” p. 569

(the branch of astrology dealing with the horoscope ... named after the Greek Horā, wholly under the influence of Greek astrology)

At p. 570 he says that the Sanskrit work Yavana-Jataka was translated from the Greek by the Greek Yavaneshvara in 169 CE

[यवन yavana is the Sanskrit word for Greek]

Monier-Williams, Sanskrit-English Dictionary:

होरा [horā] f. (fr. Gk. ὥρα) an hour (the 24th part of an Aho-rātra); the half of a zodiacal sign; horoscope or horoscopy
सुनफा [sunaphā] f. (= Gk. συναφή; cf. अनफा) a partic. configuration of the planets (when any one of the planets, except the Sun, occupies a secondary position, to the moon),
अनफा [anaphā] f. a particular configuration of the planets. [Gk. ἀναφή]

The Catholic Mass is a type of magic. Thomas Aquinas's tutor (Albert) talked about magic in nature

Well, I can't disagree with that. All religious rituals may be interpreted as "magic", depending on the inner attitude of the performer and always bearing in mind that there is a big difference between "black" and "white" forms of magic according to the nature of the intent behind the action and its impact on the world. In a sense, there is a thin line between philosophy, religion and magic.

Ye "Albert the Great" (Albert Magnus) thought of the world as an emanation of God (Leibnizian) into an angelic order and then into the world we know. So there were angels and demons in everything. Aquinas draw the distinction between God and the world more sharply.

Correct. There are numerous elements of Platonism in Christian tradition. The eastern parts of the Roman Empire were heavily influenced by Greek language and culture, including philosophy and this influence can be seen in early Christianity.

The apostle Paul who died c. 62-64 CE was born in Greek-speaking Κιλικία Cilicia and was sufficiently familiar with Greek philosophy and language to converse with the philosophers of Athens (Acts 17:16-34).

(See G. Scott Gleaves, Did Jesus Speak Greek? The Emerging Evidence of Greek Dominance In First-Century Palestine, Cambridge, 2015.)

Many of the founders of the Christian Church (Church Fathers) had been Hellenistic philosophers or had at least studied some Greek philosophy - which was part of higher education in the Roman Empire.
Church Fathers from Justin Martyr (c. 150 CE) onwards recount studying Platonism or quote from Platonic works.

In his address to God, St Augustine (354-430) wrote: “By reading these books of the Platonists I had been prompted to look for truth as something incorporeal, and I caught sight of your invisible nature [… ] So, I seized eagerly upon the venerable writings inspired by your Holy Spirit, especially those of the apostle Paul …” (Confessions, Book VII 20-21).

And, of course, Platonism also passed into Islamic and other traditions especially from Christian Hellenistic centres like Alexandria and Harran (Greek Κάρραι Charrae which was also known as Ελληνόπολις Hellenopolis, Greek City).

Imo the only thing Augustine "caught sight of" was that he was inauthentic

No, to be honest I was talking about any kind of magic, it's just that Theurgy is too close to a religious practice and is difficult to draw a line. Also I'm not very familiar with what exactly they were doing. It was quite popular among neoplatonists from Iamblichus on, however never read about anyone being charged as a magician for those practices. Apollonius for instance was for predicting a plague. However his trial was rigged, he faced false accusations and his actions were deliberately misinterpreted.
As important as it may have been in their philosophical practice it's easy to forget about it at least reading Proclus whom despite of being an intense practinioner of it haven't found yet any relevant mention to it in the works read so far.

As far as I know Plotinus did not endorse Theurgy.

BTW regarding Theurgy just read on Wikipedia that Iamblichus emphasized sacrifices. If this is true and these were real animal sacrifices then it stands in contradiction with Pythagoreanism and in particular Neopythagoreans who were in clear opposition to the practice which they considered inhumane to animals and not fit for gods.This considering Platonists saw themselves as inheritors of pythagorianism.

The way I see it, vegetarianism in Platonism is more an ideal than an absolute obligation. Socrates' last words were "Crito, we owe a cock to (god) Asclepius". The main thing is what kind of person you are. As the Bible says, "not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man, but that which comes out of it".

Thomas Burrow, The Sanskrit Language:

“Occasionally words were introduced from outside India, e.g. from Iranian (vārabāna- ‘breast plate’) or from Greek (horā ‘hour’)” p. 43 — Apollodorus

I see. Connected by the silk roads?

I think we are on the same page there. After Alexander the Great, the western world including parts of the Middle East was very much Hellenized and Hellenistic and Indian culture obviously intersected or overlapped to some extent as shown by Indian temple art and astronomy/astrology. — Apollodorus

I thought Alexander the "great" returned home or at least tried to quite soon after only reaching the borders of the then Indian civilization. He never had anything the likes of a military campaign to conquer India and so never did. In other words Alexander the "great" couldn't have contributed much towards the Hellenization of India, assuming that happened at all, for his interaction with India was too brief and also only occurred at the periphery of the contemporaneous Indian empire.

I’m fully aware that there is a difference between parallels and diffusion. But if we can establish a number of parallels beyond what can reasonably be regarded as “coincidence” or "multiple discovery", then I think we have good reason to at least try to look into the problem of diffusion or origin. — Apollodorus

Agreed! That there seems to be a by and large 1-to-1 correspondence between Greek and Indian thought can't just be a coincidence. Some sorta exchange of ideas having taken place is as good as explanations can get.

The point Winternitz and others are making is that not only the designation “horā” for Indian astrology, but the whole system was borrowed from the Greeks and this is corroborated by Indian authors of the period.

Yes, there were trade links, but also the Indo-Greek Kingdom (Yavanarajya) in Afghanistan and the Punjab from where influence was exerted on Indian art, etc. This is what I mean when I say "after Alexander the Great". I don't mean Alexander in person!

I don’t subscribe to the view that everything comes from the Greeks, but neither do I believe in the notion that everything comes from India.

The metaphysical worldview of Platonists like Plotinus, for example, is concentric and hierarchical. Everything emanates from the "centre" of the cosmic circle or sphere and returns by ascending back to it. Hence the terminology of "heart". The "heart" (innermost self) of man is identical to the "heart" of God. Hence Platonic, Christian and Indian mystics use similar language

It is precisely this essential identity between the two, that makes "return" or "reunion" possible.

There is a triadic cycle of abiding-procession-return, μονή mone, πρόοδος proodos, επιστροφή epistrophe (corresponding to the Indian sRshti, stithi, samhāra).

Simply put, the Universal Intelligence abides in itself, proceeds out of itself in creation and reverts back into itself. Or interiorisation of consciousness. Hence contemplation and meditation as the principal means.

This is found both in Platonism and in Indian traditions like Kashmiri Shaivism (9th century CE).

So, could Platonism have stimulated or influenced the emergence of Indian philosophical and mystical traditions, either directly or through Christian and Islamic mysticism? I believe that there is a possibility. In any case, we can't deny the striking parallels.

So, could Platonism have stimulated or influenced the emergence of Indian philosophical and mystical traditions, either directly or through Christian and Islamic mysticism? I believe that there is a possibility. In any case, we can't deny the striking parallels. — Apollodorus

Or maybe both cultures are expressing something essential to their common root? That would facilitate communication.

I've wondered why Plato believed in reincarnation. Was it a Greek idea?

This is a problem that’s about as old as Platonism. It’s hard to tell what Plato actually believed. It is important to bear in mind though, that in those days philosophy was largely a secret tradition that had several levels of teachings imparted to different tiers of students. Hence the belief in Plato’s άγραφα δόγματα agrapha dogmata or “unwritten teachings”.

My personal feeling is that Plato used certain teachings simply as an intellectual framework that would assist the student in training his mind in philosophical thinking. Same applies to Socrates. We can’t take all his questions and answers seriously. The point was to prepare the student’s mind for the actual teachings that would be imparted in a master-to-disciple situation or initiation at a suitable time.

As regards the origins of reincarnation, it is of course possible that it originated in India. However, if we’re talking about interchange, then some ideas may have travelled in the opposite direction, similar to astronomy and astrology, elements of which were taken by the Greeks from Egyptian and Mesopotamian traditions and later passed on to India.

In fact, astronomy itself was probably used in the same way, i.e. to dislodge the student's mind from the constrictions of everyday thought processes and prepare it for a higher level of experience or understanding. Hence the close connection between Platonic philosophy and astronomy.

I think we can only begin to understand the history of philosophy by understanding first philosophy and its close connections with astronomy and mathematics.

As Socrates put it, the epithet “wise” (sophos) properly belongs to God alone. Though he may appear to be wise in the eyes of ordinary men, the philosopher himself is not strictly speaking a wise person (sophos), he is merely one who aspires to be wise like God - as far as this is humanly possible.

To make the philosopher’s mind as wise as humanly possible as the mind of God, it needs to be taken out of its narrow, everyday context and acquainted with a broader vista, such as the heavens, his ultimate home among the stars or gods.

To paraphrase the Bible, the philosopher lives in the world but his soul is not of this world, it is of God. His mind is focused on the heavens above. This is why astronomy and mathematics were so important to philosophy and students of philosophy were called mathematikoi, i.e. “students” or “learners” from mathema, “lesson”.

A central part of the lesson to be learned was to see the Cosmos as an ordered, mathematically arranged harmonious whole, which in turn would bring about order and harmony to the learner’s mind and harmonize his soul with the World Soul. Hence the importance of astronomy and mathematics in philosophical teaching.

Philosophy sees the Cosmos as a circle framed by the twelve constellations of the zodiac, with everything emanating from and returning to its centre, the point that is also the philosopher’s ultimate goal. The heavenly vault also contains within itself the 360 degrees of the circle which are also the 360 days of the year, the 60 minutes of the hour (Greek ὥρα horā), the 60 seconds of the minute, etc., down to the smallest particle of time from which the fabric of reality is woven.

Incidentally, this is also the reason behind the astronomical and calendrical significance of Greek temple architecture.

In any case, we can see that the little word “horā” is connected to a vast science or system of thought that goes beyond mere astronomy and astrology. We also know that the earliest known mathematical texts are from Sumer/Mesopotamia and that the Greeks borrowed their tradition from the Mesopotamians and the Egyptians. So, there may well be multiple sources for both Greek and Indian traditions.

Most famous Platonists were vegetarians even when they performed sacrifices as a necessary evil. There were alternatives, like cakes baked with the shape of animals. Not all Christian views and doctrines have a counter part in Greek philosophy, some have actually opposite views.

On one side Christians end up being the ones putting end to animal sacrifices (even though they still occur rarely in Christian populations as surviving pagan customs), but utterly rejected the idea of compassion towards animals that had been building among Greek philosophers.

As an example, from the Neopythagorean Apollonius, being familiar with the Bible you may see the differences:

[1.8] Now Euxenus realized that he was attached to a lofty ideal, and asked him at what point he would begin it. Apollonius answered: "At the point at which physicians begin, for they, by purging the bowels of their patients prevent some from being ill at all, and heal others."

And having said this he declined to live upon a flesh diet, on the ground that it was unclean, and also that it made the mind gross; so he partook only of dried fruits and vegetables, for he said that all the fruits of the earth are clean. And of wine he said that it was a clean drink because it is yielded to men by so well-domesticated a plant as the vine; but he declared that it endangered the mental balance and system and darkened, as with mud, the ether which is in the soul.

After then having thus purged his interior, he took to walking without shoes by way of adornment and clad himself in linen raiment, declining to wear any animal product; and he let his hair grow long and lived in the Temple. And the people round about the Temple were struck with admiration for him, and the god Asclepius one day said to the priest that he was delighted to have Apollonius as witness of his cures of the sick; and such was his reputation that the Cilicians themselves and the people all around flocked to Aegae to visit him. Hence the Cilician proverb: "Whither runnest thou? Is it to see the stripling?"

He also justifies his prescience regarding the plague with his diet:

[8.5].... The third question related to the plague in Ephesus: "What motived," he said, "or suggested your prediction to the Ephesians that they would suffer from a plague?"

"I used," he said, "O my sovereign, a lighter diet than others, and so I was the first to be sensible of the danger; and if you like, I will enumerate the causes of pestilences."

But the Emperor, fearful, I imagine, lest Apollonius should reckon among the causes of such epidemics his own wrong-doing, and his incestuous marriage, and his other misdemeanors, replied: "Oh, I do not want any such answers as that."

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius

"Not all Christian views and doctrines have a counter part in Greek philosophy, some have actually opposite views."

I never said anything else. On the other hand, animal sacrifices in Greece do have a counterpart in Hinduism, though perhaps less so in Buddhism.

See the Wikipedia article "Animal sacrifice in Hinduism"

Either way, this has no bearing on the topic discussed here.

It’s a well-known fact that animal sacrifice is still practised in India.

See the Wikipedia article “Animal sacrifice in Hinduism”.

70% of Indians are meat eaters and if you add Pakistan and Bangladesh (that used to be part of India until a few decades ago) it probably amounts to more than 90%.

Vegetarians have always been a small minority in India, including at the time of Plato.

Brahmins used to eat meat and only later adopted vegetarianism from the Buddhists

See Wikipedia article “History of Brahmin diet”.

Swami Vivekananda admitted that Brahmins in Vedic times ate cows (Vivekananda, A Biography).

Brahmins were the main proponents of sacrificing and eating cows in Vedic times (Professor D N Jha, former member of the Indian Council of Historical Research and author of The Myth of the Holy Cow).

The Apastambha Grihya Sutra recommends sacrificing/slaughtering cows at weddings, reception of guests, etc.

Beef is recommended in the Charaka Samhita, the basic text of traditional Indian medicine, etc.

By your own admission, Platonic philosophers were vegetarians. This would indicate that they were very advanced morally and spiritually which I fully agree with.

However, vegetarianism is not the only indicator of advanced culture.

If we look at other cultural developments across the region, we see that Egyptian and Sumerian temples go back to the 4th millennium BC.

Greek temples had developed by the 9th century BC.

The oldest Buddhist shrine is a wooden structure from the 6th century BC.

The oldest Jain temple is from the 1st century BC.

The oldest Hindu temple structure is from 121-151 CE.

The Golden Age of India was between 300 and 500 CE.

It is called “Golden Age” because there were important developments in mathematics, astronomy, science, religion, philosophy, art and architecture.

These developments came about under Greek influence in the fields of mathematics, astronomy, art and, quite possibly, religion and philosophy.

Greek influence came from the next-door Indo-Greek Kingdom (Yavanarajya) in what is today Afghanistan and the Punjab, that was established after Alexander the Great’s conquest of the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent in 326 BC and persisted for several centuries, but also through links with the Hellenistic or Graeco-Roman world.

As pointed out by Joseph Campbell, the imposition of Christianity on the Roman Empire in the 4th century CE caused a “tide of refugees, bearing a rich treasure of Late Roman, Greek, and Syro-Egyptian civilization, whose influence immediately inspired many aspects of the subsequent Indian golden age” (Oriental Mythology, p. 289).

Campbell identifies three waves of Hellenistic influence on India which he calls “increasingly massive tides”:

1. One following Alexander the Great’s 327 BC conquest of Northwest India which resulted in control of the entire Indus Valley, c. 200-225 BC.

2. A second one from the Hellenized Roman Empire following sea trade routes, in the first centuries CE.

3. And a third wave of learned refugees (Greeks and others from the Hellenized eastern parts of the Roman Empire) who took refuge in India after the imposition of Christianity, c. 400 CE.

J Campbell, Oriental Mythology, The Masks of God, Vol. II, p. 289

Campbell also notes that Dr Herman Goetz, former curator of the Museum of Baroda, has shown that “there occurred an event of epochal importance for India at the beginning of the fifth century CE”, pointing out that “there occurred the sudden flowering of an immense and really wonderful constellation of architectural, sculptural, literary, social, religious and philosophical forms, unknown to India before but bearing hundreds of points of relationship to Late Rome” p. 326.

See also Herman Goetz, “Imperial Rome and the Genesis of Classical Indian Art”, East and West, New series, Vol. 10, Nos. 3-4, Sept. Dec. 1959.

Significantly, the tide of Hellenistic influence in the fields of Indian mathematics, astronomy, astrology and art coincides with the emergence of Indian religious works such as the Puranas (including the Kurma Purana whose Ishvara Gita contains the Greek word sunaphe) as well as the emergence of philosophical and mystical traditions in the monistic Advaita tradition that shows close parallels to Platonic traditions:

Brahma Sutra of Badarayana, compiled in 400-450 CE.

Mandukya Karika of Gaudapada, 6th century CE.

Brahmasutrabhasya of Adi Shankaracharya, 700-800 CE

Kashmir Shaivism of Vasugupta and Abhinavagupta, 9th century CE, etc.

Devotional bhakti movements such as Shaiva Siddhanta also emerged at the same time (7th - 9th centuries CE).

I believe that the close parallels between Hellenistic Platonism and Indian monism or non-dualism (Advaita) are beyond dispute. This is why I said earlier that we may find in one what is missing in the other.

The established historical facts suggest that Platonism flourished up to the early centuries of the Christian Era after which it influenced Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, especially the mystical currents within these such as Sufism and the Kashmiri Shaivism of Abhinavagupta.

This explains why an Indian may look at Platonism and say “this is Advaita” and a Platonist may look at Advaita and say “this is Platonism”.

However, when I look at the Advaita system of Abhinavagupta, I tend to go a step further and say not only “this is Platonism” but “this is a more elaborate form of Platonism”.

It is obvious that Abhinavagupta’s system is a synthesis of Platonism, Hinduism and Buddhism that does not seem to occur before his time.

It is my belief that in the same way as Indians borrowed mathematical concepts from the Greeks on the basis of which they developed more advanced concepts, they also borrowed from the Platonists and elaborated certain philosophical concepts in ways that we don’t see in Hellenistic Platonism.

Therefore, we may find in Abhinavagupta what is missing in Plotinus and his Western successors. What remains to be established is to what extent Abhinavagupta’s elaborations would be acceptable to Platonism. Personally, I tend to think that there is quite a bit that Platonists would be happy to accept or at least explore as a way of developing or "completing" their system.

For someone who only knows Advaita Vedanta from youtube videos, what exactly is the similarity with Platonism, besides being paths of self knowledge?



Regarding diet, the same way athletes from each sport have the body and diet that suits them, and they don't do it to aggrandize themselves but because they want to achieve results and is the best for their practice, it's only natural that someone committed to philosophical practice follows the one that better suits it, like Apollonius did. But it's understandable if the rest of society don't.

If you want to familiarize yourself with the subject you could start with P M Gregorios, "Neoplatonism and Indian Philosophy", Studies in Neoplatonism: Ancient and Modern, Vol 9 and others.

Also have a look at the couple of dozen points of similarity I provided in the list above.

Thanks that looks like an interesting book, since you are so familiarized with the subject it seemed an easy task for you to give a comparison. The Advaita in YouTube lectures sure looks quite different from Platonism.