A sheltered life must be nice. But even the biggest recluse can stay up on current events.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/03/04/future-choices/charting-equitable-exit-covid-19-pandemic

https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-report/2020/democracy-under-lockdown

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/04/03/how-authoritarians-are-exploiting-covid-19-crisis-grab-power

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/16/future-government-powers-coronavirus-pandemic/

https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/un_policy_brief_on_human_rights_and_covid_23_april_2020.pdf

I don't see anything that supports your claims.

Free speech is not an object and no one believes it has magical powers, or at least you haven’t shown otherwise. — NOS4A2

I didn't claim otherwise. Treating free speech as an object of adoration is fetishising it. Now go re-read the OP, and replies, and note the way free speech is treated.

Assange.

A sheltered life must be nice. But even the biggest recluse can stay up on current events. — NOS4A2

How about some bullet points with citations instead of citations to tomes? When I engage people I prefer it when they think on their own two feet.

Edited to add: If you decide to take me up on it, please make sure they make your case, not with speculation about what could happen (slippery slopes, etc.) but what has actually happened. Thanks. Otherwise I'll remain sheltered and you will have failed to enlighten your bro on TPF. :grin:

It's a rhetorical ploy.

It's a rhetorical ploy. — Banno

I think you are right. I also think I just saw another one on the thread about "Is Racisms a Natural Response." Bury someone in a lengthy, unrelated quote from somewhere. I bit, parsed it, and responded, even though I think it drifted far from the merits of my post to which it purported to respond. They are all variations of the old "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS." LOL!

I just though you might wish to peruse some information on the topic. It’s all a rhetorical ploy and a language game about a fetish, anyways. Nothing to see here.

as well as the antivaccination side.
— baker
And just what exactly is that side? Might it be the same people who believe in breathing underwater? — tim wood

Are you trying to give an example of precisely what I'm talking about?

Example of a new form of logic. It's called Democratic logic. — charles ferraro

:clap: Wow! :up:

↪Cheshire I don't see anything that supports your claims. — Banno

The link provided details the police powers reserved for the state and they include measures that restrict otherwise guaranteed rights. Which is why most of the Covid restrictions in the US were on a state by state basis by executive action of the respective governors. There isn't an explicit section on limiting speech regarding pandemics if that's what you mean, but there is plenty about the governments ability to act toward the ends of public health. One could imagine under the right conditions the government could curb misinformation.

I wonder if I should report this thread and this site for not complying with the Biden Administration executive orders — InPitzotl

I think you're falling prey to Poe's Law. — InPitzotl

You said executive orders; which is a thing. Yes, I agree the OP well outside of the boundaries of reality, but that's where many stand at the moment. So, Poe's Law sort of doubles back on itself, because your sarcasm could just as easily been representative of a literal position of the day. But, thanks for the clarification.

The question was - is - what exactly is the antivaccination side? Did you not understand that? Do you understand that now? Here it is again: what exactly is the antivaccination side?

I just though you might wish to peruse some information on the topic. — NOS4A2

I get that, but when I opened all five links and started reading them, I was not put off by any facts that may or may not have been found within them but, rather, I was put off by their length.

I also have had nasty experiences where I followed someone's references only to find that support for what they were saying could not be found therein. Or one had to contort and stretch and twist, or worse yet, one had to assume a slippery slope we had yet to wonder on to. Or a conspiracy. Or the author was more impressed with his writing ability than getting to the point. Or the first six chapter were devoted to qualifications or exceptions or caveats to what was said in the last chapter.

It's common courtesy to just say: "Australian rounded people up, put them on trains and hauled them off to Covid camps." [Citation]. Then, if I want to engage you on that, I can go read that, check the source to see if I want to vet their credibility, etc.

What's that with the breathing under water remark?

I personally do not think there exists a unified antivaccination side. People who are not overtly enthusiastic about vaccination are a versatile group: from those who are rabidly against any kind of vaccination, to those who are just not very enthusiastic but who get vaccinated anyway, and anything inbetween.

But the existence of a unified antivaccination side is supposed by some high politicians (and other individuals) who put the same label on anyone who is not overtly enthusiastic about vaccination.

Just the other day I watched the daily press conference of the Croatian health department on covid issues. The minister is promoting exactly this same simplistic separation into those who are in favor of vaccination and those who are "antivaccers".

From what I'm seeing, government officials don't care about people's concerns about the vaccines, enforce the party line "the vaccines are safe and effective", despite daily reports of serious negative side effects from the vaccine and despite reports of people getting sick from covid despite being vaccinated, and coerce people into vaccination with socio-economic measures.

My metaphoric view/understanding of issues of vaccination is as that of a man shooting a gun and do I want best protection from those bullets, or do I want no protection from those bullets.

I lump people who don't want best protection - or any protection - with those who think they will breathe underwater. Of course an irony is that many of those will almost have to.

And wrt epidemics, choice of protection isn't really just about oneself but also about family and community.

As to potential side effects, everything has those. Rhubarb, I read, will kill me if I'm careless with it.

You've got a bit of vaccine hesitancy, anti-vax just cause, and the wingnuts that think they are being microchipped. I'm initially sympathetic to a degree of rational hesitation. The instinct of "I'm fine, why introduce perceived risk" is a rational decision made solely based on oneself. Unfortunately, it makes for a lousy group decision and once people acknowledge that pandemics are group activities; then some of them come around.

The worst are the ones that profit off of fear and build little media empires on BSing the public.

Personally, I've had two and my arm remained attached.

I personally do not think there exists a unified antivaccination side. People who are not overtly enthusiastic about vaccination are a versatile group: from those who are rabidly against any kind of vaccination, to those who are just not very enthusiastic but who get vaccinated anyway, and anything inbetween. — baker

I've thrown my lot in with those who say we can reach herd immunity with X% of the people vaccinated. That leaves an available Y% that don't have to get vaccinated if they don't want. Out of that Y% I'm willing to consider as understandable all those people across your entire spectrum except one group: People who don't get vaccinate simply because Tucker Carlson and other morons who got the vaccine are telling them not to. I think if we could get some of the best ropers in the country to round those people up, run them through the squeeze chute, inoculate their dumb asses, and turn them back out into the herd, we'd be all good. Maybe brand them and cut their balls off while we're at it. I'm willing to tolerate general stupidity; what I can't abide is the manipulation of stupidity by conniving charlatan cult-leading assholes. Trump said this was a war against an invisible enemy. In war, we would take care of business, my proposal would not sound outlandish, and these same people would agree wholeheartedly. But they don't support the troops.

My metaphoric view/understanding of issues of vaccination is as that of a man shooting a gun and do I want best protection from those bullets, or do I want no protection from those bullets.

I lump people who don't want best protection - or any protection - with those who think they will breathe underwater. Of course an irony is that many of those will almost have to. — tim wood

Of course pretty much everyone wants such protection. That's not the issue. You're strawmanning.

The question is whether such protection is even possible, whether it exists, and whether it is possible in one's particular case, given one's current state of health.


To me, people who are confident that they won't get any negative side effects from the vaccine are the same as people who are confident that there is no covid or that they will beat it by sheer force of will.

And wrt epidemics, choice of protection isn't really just about oneself but also about family and community.

Which is a strange thing to say, after decades of fierce indoctrination that everyone should be responsible only for themselves.

To now introduce the socialist idea of solidarity just shows how unprepared for real life the authorities have been. I'd love to see what Margaret Thatcher would have to say to it, how her idea of there being no society, only individuals, would go over now.

As to potential side effects, everything has those. Rhubarb, I read, will kill me if I'm careless with it.

That's glib.

The instinct of "I'm fine, why introduce perceived risk" — Cheshire

I suppose it's like this for some people. It seems to me that for many more, it's "I'm already in bad shape, exhausted and stressed out to the max, I dread what will happen if I add more strain". For such a person, if they choose to get vaccinated and end up with serious side effects, they will have noone to blame but themselves. Hardly a prospect that one looks forward to.

Unfortunately, it makes for a lousy group decision and once people acknowledge that pandemics are group activities; then some of them come around.

One wonders when people will acknowledge that life is a group activity.

This covid crisis is an opportunity to acknowledge this, but it looks like it will go by unused, as people are looking forward to go back to the old normal where they don't have to care about others.

I've thrown my lot in with those who say we can reach herd immunity with X% of the people vaccinated. That leaves an available Y% that don't have to get vaccinated if they don't want. Out of that Y% — James Riley

You're obsesssed with X and Y. :lol:

To me, people who are confident that they won't get any negative side effects from the vaccine are the same as people who are confident that there is no covid or that they will beat it by sheer force of will. — baker

I don't think they are the same. I think the former realize risk but think of others. The latter realize risk but think of themselves.

Which is a strange thing to say, after decades of fierce indoctrination that everyone should be responsible only for themselves. — baker

Chickens come home to roost. Many people realized that indoctrination was all BS from the get go. It's the dummies who swallowed it who we are dealing with now.

This covid crisis is an opportunity to acknowledge this, but it looks like it will go by unused, as people are looking forward to go back to the old normal where they don't have to care about others. — baker

Bingo!

I don't know where it is, but there was a cool meme going around about all the take-aways from this experience. The list has probably gotten longer. But in the end, that meme would have to be contextualized by the other meme that essentially said "In the rush to get back to normal, think about what it is we want to get back to."

It seems, as you said, that this has been an opportunity. And it may very well be squandered by those who have a vested interest in ignoring the list of lessons learned. They will fire up the old mythmaking machine again and we'll be right back to loner-lives of quiet desperation, blaming government for all our woes, and idolizing the plutocrats and cartels who toss us bones.

The question is whether such protection is even possible, whether it exists, and whether it is possible in one's particular case, given one's current state of health. — baker

As of this date, 18july2021, the news reports that 100% or arbitrarily close to 100% of people currently sick or dying of Covid are unvaccinated. Of course that's only tens of thousands of people and just empirical data, nothing that should influence those who "know."

To me, people who are confident that they won't get any negative side effects from the vaccine are the same as people who are confident that there is no covid or that they will beat it by sheer force of will. — baker

People are confident about all kinds of things, so what?

And wrt epidemics, choice of protection isn't really just about oneself but also about family and community. — timw

Which is a strange thing to say, after decades of fierce indoctrination that everyone should be responsible only for themselves. — baker

Riiiight. In my person I become a source of sickness and death, a mini-me Shiva. So fuck my family and my community, what are they to me? Their sickness and death are of no importance, significance, or relevance. Maybe you should look up "responsible" and "responsibility."

I suppose it's like this for some people. It seems to me that for many more, it's "I'm already in bad shape, exhausted and stressed out to the max, I dread what will happen if I add more strain". For such a person, if they choose to get vaccinated and end up with serious side effects, they will have noone to blame but themselves. Hardly a prospect that one looks forward to. — baker

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled about enduring the typical immune response from the second dose, but nothing happened. Same reason I dodged the flu shot for years. Not wanting to introduce a flu like experience to avoid one.

To me, people who are confident that they won't get any negative side effects from the vaccine are the same as people who are confident that there is no covid or that they will beat it by sheer force of will.
— baker

I don't think they are the same. I think the former realize risk but think of others. The latter realize risk but think of themselves. — James Riley

Nah. I doubt anyone in this whole thing really thinks of others. It's just politically correct to say one is doing it "for others". It makes for such good PR.

I didn't claim otherwise. Treating free speech as an object of adoration is fetishising it. Now go re-read the OP, and replies, and note the way free speech is treated.

Assange.

I’ve read the OP and replies and do not see how one can make the association. I’ve also read you in many threads on censorship and free speech pooh-poohing the topic, so maybe it’s more of a pet-peeve than a fetish. Assange.

As of this date, 18july2021, the news reports that 100% or arbitrarily close to 100% of people currently sick or dying of Covid are unvaccinated. Of course that's only tens of thousands of people and just empirical data, nothing that should influence those who "know." — tim wood

Fuck you for this cynicism.

People are confident about all kinds of things, so what?

At the end of the day, it's all about confidence. It's not even about health.

Riiiight. In my person I become a source of sickness and death, a mini-me Shiva. So fuck my family and my community, what are they to me? Their sickness and death are of no importance, significance, or relevance. Maybe you should look up "responsible" and "responsibility."

I'm not the one who needs to look it up.

Nah. I doubt anyone in this whole thing really thinks of others. It's just politically correct to say one is doing it "for others". It makes for such good PR. — baker

I can only speak for myself, but I did it for others, not myself. Specifically my wife and son. While I want to live, I'm not married to life. I'm married to my wife and I love my son. I also don't want to be the one that murders some other poor sap for no reason other than my own pseudo skepticism.

I suspect that a great many people who got the vaccine think along the same line. But I could be wrong.

P.S. Put this in the back of your brain pan for future reference: Did Isis or AQ or some other group weaponize this? And if not, why not? If so, why aren't the alphabet agencies telling us? If I was a T, I'd get sick and go attend western spreader events. That will be the excuse used in the future, at some time, when the anti-vaxers are sick and dying and can't blame the left. There are all kinds of angles to play on this.

Yeah, fair enough. I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything anyways. You asked, I thought I’d help. Cheers.

Yeah, fair enough. I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything anyways. You asked, I thought I’d help. Cheers. — NOS4A2

It's all good. I am curious about the parade of horribles though, so if you want to hook me up with some bullets, I'd check it out.

Nah. I doubt anyone in this whole thing really thinks of others. — baker

And what does that say about your mother, your father, your family, your community, and the lessons they taught you? And the lessons you teach others, God help us!

At the end of the day, it's all about confidence. It's not even about health. — baker

Yep, tell that to the scared, suffering, incubated, and dying, and to the people who care for them and about them. And tell that to the people who end up paying for it all, namely all of us. (And give no thought at all to any science of the matter!)

Btw, are you vaccinated? Do you ever go to a doctor or take people you care about to the doctor? Or do you care about anyone, or anyone you?