Because the tidy room is not coincidence. — Thinker

Well, it's not ice cream, either, is it?

Why not say that?

Or how about a musical composition? Is it that? Why not say it's not a musical composition?

Well, it's not ice cream, either, is it?

Why not say that? — Terrapin Station

Because ice cream we eat in the tidy room.

Why is this version of the same argument difficult for atheists to swallow? — TheMadFool

The answer is simple: sin. They don't want to give up their sinful lifestyle.

The answer is simple: sin. They don't want to give up their sinful lifestyle. — lambda

Ice cream is sinful?

One thing is to be irrational, another to be fallacious or nonsensical.
Too bad this forum has no moderation.

One thing is to be irrational, another to be fallacious and nonsensical.
Too bad this forum has no moderation. — Noblosh

Well, I vote to make you the moderator of what is fallacious.

One thing is to be irrational, another to be fallacious or nonsensical.
Too bad this forum has no moderation. — Noblosh

Yeah, I don't know if Thinker was ever serious in this thread, but it seems like he lost interest in that, at least.

I think the crux of the matter comes down to causation. Is there cause and effect in the universe? I think there is. Order is a function of cause and effect. If the universe is orderly – why is it so? That is the question.

What does cause and effect have to do with the idea of there being sentience behind the same?

there is no mess — TheMadFool

In which case a tidy room is unsurprising to the extent of being inevitable. Don't tell my kids.

Non sequitur: Affirming the consequent. — Noblosh

So, according to you, a clean room is insufficient evidence for the existence of an agency that did the cleaning. That means you think it's possible for a clean room AND the nonexistence of an agency that does the cleaning. Put otherwise you see another cause for the cleanliness. Apart from how incongruous such reasoning is (most people think otherwise) you'll have to furnish another cause for the cleanliness of the room. Can you do that?

What does cause and effect have to do with the idea of their being sentience behind the same? — Terrapin Station

No one can prove a sentient force put in motion cause and effect. All I can say is thank you for doing a good and orderly job. Can anybody prove a sentient force is not responsible? I have not heard that proof – yet.

If we're using this definition, humans and some other organisms would fall into the category of "God". — Harry Hindu

Well, as I admitted, my definition diminishes the value of the argument. Nonetheless you'll not deny that a creator of the universe certainly at a different level than say, the creator of ice cream.

You said:

Actually no. Observations have shown that organization out of chaos is the result of the application of energy, not conscious agency. — Harry Hindu

And then you said:

There isn't order in the universe. — Harry Hindu

according to you — TheMadFool

According to logic*. I don't have to come up with a counterargument if your argument is fallacious.

According to logic*. I don't have to come up with a counterargument if your argument is fallacious. — Noblosh

Can you give me a reason why order is insufficient reason to deduce the existence of God?

According to logic*. I don't have to come up with a counterargument if your argument is fallacious. — Noblosh

I never got your argument of fallacious logic - I guess you don't need it - just say it is so. Maybe if you say it repeatedly we will take it as fact - and then there is the small detail of no counterargument.

In which case a tidy room is unsurprising to the extent of being inevitable. Don't tell my kids. — unenlightened

An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. However, a tidy room can only be caused by a person.

The answer is simple: sin. They don't want to give up their sinful lifestyle. — lambda

Possible.

No one can prove a sentient force put in motion cause and effect. All I can say is thank you for doing a good and orderly job. Can anybody prove a sentient force is not responsible? I have not heard that proof – yet. — Thinker

Empirical claims are not provable. So no need to worry about that from any angle.

So, the question becomes--why would we believe one option or another? What's the answer to that?

An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. However, a tidy room can only be caused by a person. — TheMadFool

Actually the tidy room is both tidy and untidy because it is a quantum tidy room. I like being absurd – it's untidy.

Can you give me a reason why order is insufficient reason to deduce the existence of God? — TheMadFool

Why wouldn't order be a sufficient reason to deduce "not God" in that case?

An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. However, a tidy room can only be caused by a person. — TheMadFool

In the scenario where we have no idea what causes a room, its furniture, etc. to exist, on what grounds are we concluding that a tidy room can only be cause by a person?

So, the question becomes--why would we believe one option or another? What's the answer to that? — Terrapin Station

Preference – why do we have a predilection? Another untidy phenomenon thrown into the mix. Where did “it” come from?

An untidy room can be caused by chaotic causes e.g. a strong wind, earthquake, etc. — TheMadFool

Also called 'An act of God'. Thus a tidy room is a sign of the absence of God, and the presence of fairies, or some other anal retentive being.

Preference – why do we have a predilection? Another untidy phenomenon thrown into the mix. Where did “it” come from? — Thinker

Now, we get back to the idea of coincidence – we are starting to get a lot of very fortunate coincidences. How lucky for us.

Preference – why do we have a predilection? Another untidy phenomenon thrown into the mix. Where did “it” come from? — Thinker

Preference is the only reason you'd believe one thing rather than another?? Yikes. ;-)

Now, we get back to the idea of coincidence – we are starting to get a lot of very fortunate coincidences. How lucky for us. — Thinker

Back to the idea? You wouldn't say where the idea was coming from in the first place.

The tidy room is a lower entropy state compared to the messy room.
The more ordered universe is higher entropy than the a universe with stuff strewn randomly about. The comparison thus fails.

The argument also applies our intuitions about entropy against a system (God's world) where there is no such law.

Can you give me a reason why order is insufficient reason to deduce the existence of God? — TheMadFool

Order is not defined as resulting from the actions of a conscious agency.

I never got your argument of fallacious logic — Thinker

If there's no God, there's no proof for God's existence.
There's no proof for God's existence.
Therefore there's no God.
That's valid according to your fallacious logic.

If you need a more in-depth explanation, check an article on it.

Back to the idea? You wouldn't say where the idea was coming from in the first place. — Terrapin Station

What I did say repeatedly is that the tidy room is not coincidence. What I am saying additionally is that consciousness and volition are also not coincidence.