I'm saying there is a 70% chance it won't be at a suicide inducing level in the future. — LuckyR

And I'm saying you don't know that.

Which you're free to do. Though I'm wondering if you impose your "know nothing" logic to all facets of your decision making.

First, the source of the "optimism" is the Actual Data that proves that among those in your exact situation (contemplating suicide), the vast majority (70 - 93%) will change their mind and decide that life is, in fact worth living after all. — LuckyR

A source of optimism for whom? The general public?

Though your implication is correct that many can not or will not understand or accept that data. But that is an error.

What are you talking about??
So if a person is contemplating suicide, they should reflect that there is a 70 - 93% chance that they will not pull the trigger/jump off a cliff/etc.??



You keep bringing in this sociological/statistical approach to a discussion that was from the onset intended to be philosophical. You keep avoiding the OP.

While it's understandable that the discussion of existential topics has to be opaque to some extent, at some point, all this opaqueness is just a waste of time.

Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memories and pain - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief. — Tom Storm

One thing that is systematically being avoided in this discussion is the topic of shame and disgrace.

There are things that a person can do or which can happen to a person that render the person's life worthless, from then on forever.

On the one hand, there are criminal acts a person might do that the state deems so evil that the person's life must be taken via the death penalty. What the person has done might in fact be "termporary", but the state thinks the person doesn't deserve to live anymore. Treason is a prime example.

On the other hand, traditionally, some dishonoring events in a person's life, such as a woman being raped or a military general losing an important battle, for example, were considered so shameful that the person was expected to kill themselves (or be killed). It had nothing to do with PTSD or "not being able to bear the pain".

Many people who undergo such things never recover, their brains seem to be rewired by the trauma. — Tom Storm

Do people even want everyone to survive?

If yes, then why the military industry (guns are for killing people, yes), why the approval of euthanasia and assisted suicide, why the approval of capital punishment?

Are suicidal people not correctly reflecting society's actual values? Namely, that some lives are not worth living?

Kind of a dud answer if all you're gonna say is "it's subjective". — Darkneos

Perhaps the most important thing to learn in such discussions is that existential topics (including the question of suicide) are mostly pointless to try to discuss with others, and that this is due to the nature of those topics.

Not avoiding the OP. The OP makes the error of implying that death is something that individuals can opt for or against. Everyone knows death is inevitable, only the timing of it is changeable.

The reality is we're all going to spend the vast majority of eternity as not alive, the only difference is the length of the tiny fraction of eternity being alive.

As to my statistical analysis, as it happens this topic of suicide is unusual in that there is a ton of experience of prior suicidal individuals who fail at their attempt and whether their personal viewpoint at the darkest moment of their life (by definition), ended up being an accurate analysis and prediction of their personal future. This analysis is an opportunity to glimpse into the future. Ignore this opportunity at your own risk.

Perhaps the most important thing to learn in such discussions is that existential topics (including the question of suicide) are mostly pointless to try to discuss with others, and that this is due to the nature of those topics. — baker

Maybe, but they are also extremely important. To be honest such questions are more important than ontological or metaphysical stuff.

The OP makes the error of implying that death is something that individuals can opt for or against. — LuckyR

Well you can, it's just that death wins in the end.

This supposedly adverse effect on others is so often grossly overstated. — baker

My older brother killed himself last March, and in a pretty ugly way. This event devastated our large family. We are all traumatized, his siblings, his grown kids, his grandkids, some nieces and nephews, his friends. His grown son didn't speak for a couple of weeks after the death. My mom cries every day still. And prior to that, I saw her cry, just barely, maybe only five times. Was a tough lady!

My view of the world and life darkened considerably. I decided not to have kids with my wife partly because of it. And we just today decided on divorce over my reluctance to have kids.

And my brother was partly driven to that by the suicide of our nephew a long time ago, one he had taken under his wing and who spent his late teens with him. My nephew had two boys of his own when he committed suicide. That suicide sent my brother's life spiralling. He never got over it. Drove him to heavy drinking and painkillers. Destroyed his marriage. This nephew's suicide also wrecked the lives of his mom and three sisters.

Might sound like a BS story to you, but it's true.

I also have a friend whose stepdad committed suicide when my friend was a teen. Wrecked him. He was the darkest person I've ever known. So depressed. Suicidal himself. I was his lifeline, his only friend. Then, years later, his biological father did it too. And then, his counselor, also an older man, killed himself too. My friend was quite a mess for a long time. Luckily, he found God (I haven't), got married, and now has kids and is mostly okay, if a bit crazy.

Again, you probably think that's BS. It's not, unfortunately.

Suicide is horrific for the people who loved the person. It isn't at all like a normal death. I've thought about it myself a lot, but would never even consider going through with it unless I had no connections. I wouldn't do that to the people who love me. I've seen what it does to people.

Might not be relevant from a philosophical POV, but I highly recommend watching the "Death's Game" on Netflix. You will come up with answers to the questions you have mentioned by yourself. Do share your thoughts afterwards, if you decide to watch.

Might not be relevant from a philosophical POV, but I highly recommend watching the "Death's Game" on Netflix. You will come up with answers to the questions you have mentioned by yourself. Do share your thoughts afterwards, if you decide to watch. — Ayush Jain

I don't think it's on there.

Thank you for sharing that. I agree. My ex wife killed herself, and later my second wife's niece. I am left, as I am always left after contributions to this perennial topic, with a feeling of failure, and a feeling of reproach from an unanswerable source.

I feel some obligation to talk to people who might become another of those people who might become another that one can no longer talk to, but there is- as others have pointed out, no argument to be made. Might as well sing a song.

I'm really sorry that happened in your life. It's rough, I know.

There was a person who used to post on these forums some years ago, or at least before they moved to this new location. His handle was Miss Lonelyhearts. He was on the forums talking a lot about how meaningless his life felt, asking others to convince him that life is worth living. (These forums are a really bad place to come for that!) I really tried to help. I looked him up some months ago to see if I could learn anything and found an article about how there had been a search for him and they eventually found him in the forest deceased, apparently a suicide. I wonder if I could have done something differently to better help him.

He was on the forums talking a lot about how meaningless his life felt, asking others to convince him that life is worth living. (These forums are a really bad place to come for that! — petrichor

I think I remember the handle, it was a long time back - on the old site? There are plenty of worse places to go, but if you can't find meaning in life, then words are not going to help, any more than a sign post can help when you don't know where you want to go.

My ex wife killed herself, and later my second wife's niece. I am left, as I am always left after contributions to this perennial topic, with a feeling of failure, and a feeling of reproach from an unanswerable source. — unenlightened

(sorry for popping in mid conversation out of context) Without going into too much detail, I've had extremely similar events in my life and feelings. Hope you're doing okay.

The case against suicide once all the emotion and man-made ethic/morality is removed, it is a matter that cannot be determined as an absolute. In other words the case against suicide is necessarily case specific and I tend to agree with the OP's attitude on this.

There are indeed circumstances where suicide is a perfectly reasonable action and other circumstances where it is incredibly harmful to those left behind. How that determination is made is up to the individual involved but since this is one decision that cannot be undone it should be made with the most complete understanding possible and that means the dreaded counseling as well as one's own research and conscience as a guide to arrive at the best choice. Suicide may be an incredibly noble and righteous choice or it may be an unbelievably cowardly and selfish choice.

I would stipulate one case and one only, if one is likely to cause significant pain to a loved one by destroying themselves, and their reason is a matter of convenience (selfishness) to themselves to avoid the drudgery of life, they should stay alive for the sake of the loved one who would be hurt. I admit this is special pleading but it's the only case I can make against suicide. Any other case that involves only the circumstances and emotions of the one who's making the choice is strictly up to them without any further qualification.

(IMO) The reason is simple enough, human emotion and feeling count for something and you will die soon enough so wait it out, life is short anyway, the wait will be relatively quick. It seems "un-natural" to cut a life short when other lives may suffer for it, other than that consideration, all bets are off and one's life is one's own to do with what they see fit. I hope you find peace in whatever decisions you ultimately make.

A thoughtful and reasonable take on a difficult topic. I agree that folks are free to make the best decision for their particular circumstances. I also agree that such an important and especially permanent decision should be made with the utmost care and consideration. The fact that most make the decision relatively spontaneously is a tragedy.

I advised folks professionally who sought to make permanent decisions in situations where experience has shown that those in their demographic who chose to proceed later expressed regret at their decision in high numbers. Obviously I had a professional obligation to point out and underscore this statistic, but ultimately as these were adults, I assisted them should they choose, in spite of this knowledge, to go ahead. I did so with a clear conscience. Though most in my profession refused.

The case against suicide once all the emotion and man-made ethic/morality is removed, it is a matter that cannot be determined as an absolute. In other words the case against suicide is necessarily case specific and I tend to agree with the OP's attitude on this. — philosch

You can’t really remove emotion and man made ethics or morality from it since wanting to off yourself is rooted in such things

The wisdom of Silenus is real but find yourself a transfiguring mirror...

The same impulse which calls art into being, as the complement and consummation of existence, seducing to a continuation of life, caused also the Olympian world to arise, in which the Hellenic "will" held up before itself a transfiguring mirror. Thus do the gods justify the life of man, in that they themselves live it—the only satisfactory Theodicy! Existence under the bright sunshine of such gods is regarded as that which is desirable in itself, and the real grief of the Homeric men has reference to parting from it, especially to early parting: so that we might now say of them, with a reversion of the Silenian wisdom, that "to die early is worst of all for them, the second worst is—some day to die at all." — Nietzsche

So with that we come to what Nietzsche details in Beyond Good and Evil

The essential thing "in heaven and in earth" is, apparently (to repeat it once more), that there should be long OBEDIENCE in the same direction, there thereby results, and has always resulted in the long run, something which has made life worth living; for instance, virtue, art, music, dancing, reason, spirituality—anything whatever that is transfiguring, refined, foolish, or divine. — Nietzsche

So find something that transfigures your outlook...
It's subjective to you. But Nietzsche says most people don't even know their way into or out of that labyrinth in his day, I'd assume that holds true today also.

So find something that transfigures your outlook...
It's subjective to you. But Nietzsche says most people don't even know their way into or out of that labyrinth in his day, I'd assume that holds true today also. — DifferentiatingEgg

Nietzsche isn’t the best example given how his life turned out. He was wrong.

The man spent his life knowing he would die early due to his life long medical conditions that were similar to his fathers...and he even overcame serious physical injuries, while being crippled by some life long hereditary conditions most likely falling under the umbrella of CADASIL.

He overcame and became a world influencing philosopher who is still highly relevant to this day...

You just sound like the Narrator of the Aleph... a nihilist.

The man spent his life knowing he would die early due to his life long medical conditions that were similar to his fathers...and he even overcame serious physical injuries, while being crippled by some life long hereditary conditions most likely falling under the umbrella of CADASIL. — DifferentiatingEgg

I wouldn’t say he overcome anything since he didn’t really embody the philosophy he preached.

Oh, tells us of that philosophy if you're so great at knowing Nietzsche's philosophy better than he himself...
What precisely didn't he live out?

I'm absolutely certain you've a lack luster knowledge of Nietzsche's philosophy to suggest that he himself would know it less than you.

Fine if you chose not too, but really all you've declared here is that you're too lazy to attempt to tackle Nietzsche. That your transfiguring mirror is sour.

"Everything is shit beneath me."

Certainly is with that reifying entry wedge into everything.

Fine if you chose not too, but really all you've declared here is that you're too lazy to attempt to tackle Nietzsche. That your transfiguring mirror is sour. — DifferentiatingEgg

The man himself had a life that was effectively a downward spiral that ended with him having to be taken care of by others. He transfigured nothing.

In a sense all of it. He also happened to benefit from people not following his philosophy, especially morality.

He doesn’t really understand how human society works or what made humans successful.

In short he’s lucky people didn’t obey his words.

A thoughtful and reasonable take on a difficult topic. I agree that folks are free to make the best decision for their particular circumstances. I also agree that such an important and especially permanent decision should be made with the utmost care and consideration. The fact that most make the decision relatively spontaneously is a tragedy.

I advised folks professionally who sought to make permanent decisions in situations where experience has shown that those in their demographic who chose to proceed later expressed regret at their decision in high numbers. Obviously I had a professional obligation to point out and underscore this statistic, but ultimately as these were adults, I assisted them should they choose, in spite of this knowledge, to go ahead. I did so with a clear conscience. Though most in my profession refused. — LuckyR

Thanks and I also think your conscience should be clear, you were providing the right kind of support against conventional thinking but right nonetheless (although I do think people are coming around to the right way of dealing with this very important issue)

You can’t really remove emotion and man made ethics or morality from it since wanting to off yourself is rooted in such things — Darkneos

I disagree. Suicide may be rooted in those things or maybe not. Could be as simple as wanting to end the intractable pain from terminal bone cancer. I say the main argument against suicide is rooted in those things, not the wish to remove oneself from the suffering and loss and pain that it's possible to feel as a human being. Instead the religious view greatly effects whether we consider suicide a sin or a great act of heroism. Remove the religious, moral and ethical filters and focus on the 3 P's. The philosophical, psychological and physiological condition of the person who wishes to speed up their inevitable destiny.

:100: :up:

I mean, with all due respect, *hammer emoji* *nail emoji* *coffin emjoi* one could not imagine a grander thesis... how am I to argue such infinite wisdom? You win. :party: :clap:

I disagree. Suicide may be rooted in those things or maybe not. Could be as simple as wanting to end the intractable pain from terminal bone cancer. I say the main argument against suicide is rooted in those things, not the wish to remove oneself from the suffering and loss and pain that it's possible to feel as a human being. Instead the religious view greatly effects whether we consider suicide a sin or a great act of heroism. Remove the religious, moral and ethical filters and focus on the 3 P's. The philosophical, psychological and physiological condition of the person who wishes to speed up their inevitable destiny. — philosch

You can disagree but you’d be wrong. Suicide is rooted in emotion same as philosophy. Wanting to end pain is emotional.

I mean, with all due respect, *hammer emoji* *nail emoji* *coffin emjoi* one could not imagine a grander thesis... how am I to argue such infinite wisdom? You win. — DifferentiatingEgg

I mean you never really had an argument other than indignation so it wasn’t hard.