Then I again ask, what is the difference between the fact that the cup is on the table and the cup being on the table? — Posty McPostface
If you are using "fact" to mean the sentence "the cup is on the table", then, one is a state of affairs, the other a sentence.
If you are using "fact" to mean a state of affairs, then there is no difference between the cup being on the table and the state of affairs of the cup being on the table.
Confusion arrises when these two are mixed. — Banno
I think that there are three types of things involved:
1. "the cup is on the table"
2. the cup on the table
3. the cup being on the table
The first is a sentence, the second is an object, and the third is... what? The state of affairs? I think the distinction between 2 and 3 is the most interesting area of discussion. — Michael
I don't see any difference between 2 & 3. — Banno
So a fact can be a truth-bearer, in which case it's a statement; because it is statements that are able to be true or false.
And a fact is also a state of affairs, and so not a sentence at all. — Banno
The cat is on the mat. That's a fact. — Banno
One is an animal, the other a fact? — Banno
I'm not sure if this makes sense; but, 3 seems to prescribe a sense of intentionality (mistakenly?) when speaking about the object of interest, the cup, that is, being on the table. — Posty McPostface
Do you also see the fallacious circularity in stating that facts are true propositions? — Posty McPostface
No? — Michael
3) A fact is just a sui generis type of entity in which objects exemplify properties or stand in relations.
So, to what state of affairs do facts, or a fact, correspond to, in order for it to be a proposition? — Posty McPostface
I don't know what you mean by this. It's a proposition if it's the meaning of a sentence. — Michael
Although this still doesn't explain the difference between objects, like a red cup, and states-of-affairs, like a cup being red. Perhaps states-of-affairs are to objects as propositions are to sentences? I don't know. — Michael
SO facts are statements? — Banno
A fact is a group of words that express an idea that has a positive truth value. Whether that counts as a statement would depend on the definition of statement. And yes that does seem circular. — Sir2u
It seems to me that 2+2=4 is best regarded as a hypothetical fact that's the "then" conclusion of an inevitable abstract if-then fact: — Michael Ossipoff
"It seems to me that 2+2=4 is best regarded as a hypothetical fact that's the "then" conclusion of an inevitable abstract if-then fact:" — Michael Ossipoff
This. '2+2=4' doesn't seem to be anymore a fact in itself than '2+2 — Akanthinos
or '2=2'.
It [2+2=4] is a mathematical proposition
A proof is probably is good way.
What is the ontological difference... ...between a red cup and a cup being red? — Michael
It is important to treat this as an epistemological question, not an ontological one. — Banno
I think this is the golden nugget of the thread. If 'fact' is a primitive, as I argued, then you can only demonstrate it's use, or refer to it in purely formal terms. As such, I'd say that 'fact' is epistemologically an unbound variable, where its use is to refer to a proposition obtaining a truth-value from a state-of-affairs. — Akanthinos
False is a truth-value. Facts cannot be false(I mean if you're working from a framework where facts are either true statements or propositions). Facts aren't the sort of things that can be true/false on my view, but that's another matter altogether. — creativesoul
3) A fact is just a sui generis type of entity in which objects exemplify properties or stand in relations. — Posty McPostface
So for the purposes of my suggested grammar, a fact is not a statement, and we ought reject the idea that a fact has a truth-value. — Banno
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