Those are what you call an exception. People with DSD or hermaphrodite persons does not constitute a third sex. You do not use exceptions as a generalization. It's a genetical deficiency, you do not use an illness as a general truth. — Terran Imperium

That something is a statistical anomaly (or seems to be) has not bearing on wether or not its relevant to the subject at hand. If there is a third, fourth and fifth gender, and that each totals only 0.0001% of the living population, you don't get to erase them from existence simply because you dislike SJWs on the internet.

That you describe intersex people as "ill" or "deficient" is pretty telling. Your lack of empathy and sophistication should in itself be considered a deficiency and an illness.

I didn't want to become part of their performance of what they imagined themselves to be. Other people can do that if they want.

How could you even conceivably be part of the "performance"? You, as an individual with little to no power to affect large social change, would at most be asked to use a preferred pronoun and slightly reword the occasional sentence to reflect that. In 99% of cases this will be to use him/her/them. People often bitch and moan about "But I saw xer, xem, or some other ridiculous thing on Tumblr (the horror!)." And to them I say oh good for you, you found someone using a stupid term that will be here and gone in a month before they opt to using something gender neutral like "them". Time tends to quickly weed these out because they are not useful and are cumbersome. There's an exponentially larger cottage industry around complaining about isolated, temporary silliness than there are people doing the silly things.

58 gender options (below) from which to choose. Most of these look kind of redundant to me, but I am sure there are partisans ready to defend to their death the critical difference between being a cis male and a cis man, between gender fluid and gender juice. — Bitter Crank

Yes, many of them are redundant. You clearly recognize this, and they are not available any longer from what you said so it's much ado about nothing (the option for the native American "two spirit back is completely useless tbf). And that they have sex and gender options available makes it even sillier. "Cis male" and "cisgender male" are the same thing so this almost looks fake, but I'm assuming you copy/pasted what was actually done.

I am aspiring to be a doctor and my view is set upon reality, upon science. To me, transgender people are delusional, not everyone will agree with me, of course, but objectively with the behavior that I saw with my eyes, the numerous ones in social media. They are delusional. — Terran Imperium

A few questions: Are you calling them delusional in their transgender-ism or in their support of the concept of gender through their transgender-ism? Sex and gender are not the same thing. When they reference their preferred pronouns they are asking (not enforcing) that you pay attention to their gender not their sex. That is why they are transgender, not transsexual.

That something is a statistical anomaly (or seems to be) has not bearing on wether or not its relevant to the subject at hand. If there is a third, fourth and fifth gender, and that each totals only 0.0001% of the living population, you don't get to erase them from existence simply because you dislike SJWs on the internet.

That you describe intersex people as "ill" or "deficient" is pretty telling. Your lack of empathy and sophistication should in itself be considered a deficiency and an illness. — Akanthinos

I will ignore you from now on as you seem incapable of formulating a proper argument and is trying to find an opportunity to politely call me in more sophisticated words, ignorant and cold. Good try, better than the last one at least.

A few questions: Are you calling them delusional in their transgender-ism or in their support of the concept of gender through their transgender-ism? Sex and gender are not the same thing. When they reference their preferred pronouns they are asking (not enforcing) that you pay attention to their gender not their sex. That is why they are transgender, not transsexual. — yatagarasu

That is running around the question in the first place, most transgender people run through a few surgeries to grow breasts and other such female traits in the case of a transgender woman. In fact most transgender people that I met tell me that there is no difference between gender and sex and that thinking otherwise is me adhering to this:

"Which is basically biological essentialism, a wonderful set of beliefs possessed off by many groups, of which one of note is the Trans-exclusionary radical feminists.

You don't want to be confused for a Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist."

Apparently. Now I didn't even know there was that many types of feminists and its just giving me a headache while thinking about it. And I don't want to be called a feminist, oh hell no.

My opinion on them is that they are delusional but I won't go in the streets to drag them to mental hospitals. My problem comes from those that demand of people to accept their ideologies and name them by their incorrect pronoun or a new martian pronoun or something. Nowadays, a transgender woman can call abuse for using the 'wrong' pronoun.

I don't agree with the way they are thinking they can mold the current definition of gender which is how you behave, your clothes and your physical appearance. It doesn't change their facial structure which is masculine and I obviously have the impulse to use 'he' instead of 'she'. Growing longer hair, shaving your leg hair doesn't make you a woman in my book. While now gender and sex are two different things, they still depend mainly on each other. The fact that you may have male genitalia or female ones affect your physical appearance more than you can imagine. In fact most of them, they are so fake and underwent so many surgeries, it hurts on the eyes to look at them sometimes.

I am so glad that transgenderism is mostly limited to the English countries, I really had a bad experience going there because of the few transgender people and feminists that I met there and their talk about pronouns.

A bit of linguistic talk. In my country, France, we obviously speak French and there isn't in our language a gender-neutral pronoun. 'il' means 'he', 'elle' means 'she'. When we use the plural as its 'ils' or 'elles'. And if that group of people we are talking about is made out of men and women, we just revert back to the standard 'ils'. And our adjectives are so gender-based on a binary system that if you wanted to change that, you'll have to take down the whole French language and start it from anew.

In fact, we have 'L'Académie Française' which is an institution founded in 1634, their goal is to normalize and perfect the French language. They are the guys who decide what gets in a french dictionary or not, and they are the ones who can decide whenever or not a word or verb or anything really can be considered 'French' officially.

Yes, God forbids one shows the decency of calling people by their prefered method. I mean, where does it ends?* Will I have to call my bratty pink haired tripled nose peirced agendered cousin 'my lady' just cause zxche'll sue me if I dont?

* A fine exemple of a slippery-slope fallacy.

Et bordel de merde, si tes capable de comprendre qu'une table est au feminin en langue de Voltaire, tu devrais pas avoir trop de misere avec l'idee d'appeler un mec 'elle'.

For those cursed with a lack of frogspeak, this translate to 'and bordello of crap, if you can learn to use the feminine for a table, in french, you should be able to wrap your head around the idea of calling a man 'she' '.

Yes, God forbids one shows the decency of calling people by their prefered method. I mean, where does it ends?* Will I have to call my bratty pink haired tripled nose peirced agendered cousin 'my lady' just cause zxche'll sue me if I dont?

* A fine exemple of a slippery-slope fallacy.

Et bordel de merde, si tes capable de comprendre qu'une table est au feminin en langue de Voltaire, tu devrais pas avoir trop de misere avec l'idee d'appeler un mec 'elle'.

For those cursed with a lack of frogspeak, this translate to 'and bordello of crap, if you can learn to use the feminine for a table, in french, you should be able to wrap your head around the idea of calling a man 'she' '. — Akanthinos

Il me semble que vous etes incapable de comprendre la langue française. Ce que vous etes en train de me demander, en comparaison est d'utiliser le pronon masculin pour une table. 'le table' 'un table'. Cela n'a absolument aucun sense! Un homme est un homme, et une femme est une femme. C'est aussi simple que ça! Je ne vais pas utiliser le pronon féminin 'elle' pour un homme.

Et par rapport aux autres? Ceux qui se considère non-binaire? On utilise quel pronon? Faut comprendre a quel point vous etes entrain d'écrire des stupidités qui franchement me remplit de stupéfaction.

---------------------

It seems to me that you are unable to understand the French language. What you are asking me in comparison is to use the male pronoun for a table, 'une table' is the correct one, not 'un table'. It has absolutely no sense! A man is a man, and a woman is a woman. It's that simple! I will not use the pronoun 'elle' for a man.

And compared to others? Those who consider themselves non-binary? Which pronoun should be used? You have to understand that the stupidities that you are writing are amazing me to a point I can't describe.

Uh, no. We don't treat all CLAIMS that people make equally. No one ever questions the validity of what it is that they are actually saying when a man says they feel like a woman or a woman says that they feel like a man, yet you question the validity of so many other PERSONAL and SUBJECTIVE claims made on this forum. Yes, that makes sense.

What you are doing is engaging the the unequal treatment of others by implying that a certain group has special privileges where their claims can't be questioned yet others' claims can. I can imagine what you would say if a Christian said thet their claims can't be questioned and you have to treat them as if their claims are true. Hypocrisy. At least I'm being consistent.

Affirming and reinforcing someone's delusions is the same as lying to them. Now, who is the hater?

Et bordel de merde, si tes capable de comprendre qu'une table est au feminin en langue de Voltaire, tu devrais pas avoir trop de misere avec l'idee d'appeler un mec 'elle'. — Akanthinos

Per Google Translate: "And shit hell, if you can understand that a table is female in Voltaire, you should not have too much misery with the idea of ​​calling a guy 'her'."

L'Académie Française needs to have a tête à tête with Monsieurs Sergey Brin and Larry Page (they own about half of Google).

The English-speaking world could do with an Academy of English. Considering how much French was shoved down Anglo Saxon throats by W the C in an act of mass Franco-fellatio, maybe L'Académie Française could open a branch in London and New York to supervise the Francophile Contribution to English.

I'll volunteer to head up the Anglo Saxon Vocabulary Recovery Program.

Although the title of the video is untasteful, the man talking there Ben Shapiro lay out my view perfectly. I was looking on the internet for more information and I stumbled upon it. I don't know if it will convince you and I don't particularly care, but Mister Shapiro there made interesting points and actually explained things better than I ever could. I didn't know this man until now but he seems like a rational logical man from this video that I just saw. Its someone I would like to meet and expect an interesting eye-opening discussion in the end.

The English-speaking world could do with an Academy of English. Considering how much French was shoved down Anglo Saxon throats by W the C in an act of mass Franco-fellatio, maybe L'Académie Française could open a branch in London and New York to supervise the Francophile Contribution to English.

I'll volunteer to head up the Anglo Saxon Vocabulary Recovery Program. — Bitter Crank

That would be interesting to see actually. If I could, its something that I'll support, the study and recovery of the English language in an official institute would be beneficial to it as a whole. And it will be less likely for random people running around in the streets to add previously unknown pronouns to the language or change the foundations its based on entirely.

Please review feminist literature and then form your opinion on the idea of gender. Gender is not being "redefined", it is/was already defined but you don't want to accept the common definition. How is that being open minded? Physicality is not necessarily male any more than being prim and proper is intrinsically female. That is the core of many of the movements that define the norms we see as gender(s). Throughout most of history sex and gender have fit like a glove, but by definition they do not have to, and we have hit that moment in history. It is no longer as necessary to be physically fit and able to lift 100 kg as a man to survive, and it is no longer necessary to hold onto certain stereotypical ways women acted, as the end all be all. That is why the idea of gender exists, to delineate between what is physical (sex), and what is not (gender).

Your point about language is very interesting but that doesn't disprove the validity of their claims. It will be interesting to see a possible work around for this. In many other languages, my native tongue, Serbo-Croatian, we would have similar issues. But many others, English, the Sino group of languages, (among others) , don't have this issue.

I agree that it would be ludicrous to punish people for not referring to you in a specific way and would fight that. BUT, I would not fight someone kindly asking for me to refer to them a specific way. Then it is up to me to validate their request or not. Just like how I could refuse to call you the male pronouns (I'm assuming your male XD).

Transgender individuals making claims about what the differences between gender and sex are doesn't make their opinion any more or less valid/correct. They are not the same. If they were they would not have different names to describe the exact same thing.

You're sad for it I understand, but they have certain legal rights and so can't (yet?) forcibly be committed to mental institutions, as common sense would dictate.

What you are doing is engaging the the unequal treatment of others by implying that a certain group has special privileges where their claims can't be questioned yet others' claims can. I can imagine what you would say if a Christian said thet their claims can't be questioned and you have to treat them as if their claims are true. Hypocrisy. At least I'm being consistent. — Harry Hindu

I've said nothing of special privileges. If for some reason you feel the need to engage in diatribes regarding transgenderism (if that's the word), as it seems you do, I don't think transgenders have any special claim of any kind related to your compulsion. I think pontificating on the subject is peculiar and needless, true, and that absent harm to others they should be treated the same as anyone else, but I don't think I've said any more than that.

You are the fool.
You think the body has a mind of its own, a nonconscious one that dictates our desires and our motivations, interests and relations, and that there is a set, absolute purpose of existence, to reproduce? And so gay people are thus inauthentic and illegitimate? Oh wait? Perhaps they have a disorder?
People can define themselves to be whatever the hell they want. If it is not measurably, negatively affecting them then it cannot be said to be a disorder. There is no absolute purpose of human life. Meaning is given to life by living it, not by being some passive object to chemicals.
This form of thinking is an utter disgrace to human intelligence.

Ben Shapiro is a blithering idiot.

They are delusional? According to whom? You?
Rofl
Have you ever personally been involved with someone who is transgendered? Have you ever been friends with a trans person?

"You learn more about someone in an hour of play than in years of conversation."
Plato

You think your little puny knowledge can determine the facts. Oh I'd love to uncover the metaphysics of your epistemology. Oh wouldn't that be the only legitimate fact regarding your complete dismissal of humanity for what... Let me guess...

If we followed common sense, those people should already be in mental hospitals to be treated for their mental illness. You can't pretend to be something when you aren't, that's just lying to yourself, wait a few hundred years until we can somehow change our biological sex at will then you can start whining that people are certainly using the wrong pronoun when talking to you. — Terran Imperium

Who are you to say what someone else is. It is not as much someone saying that they are something as much as they are saying that they are not something. So, according to your abject epistemology, my homosexuality is an illusion and I am actually hererosexual, which has become obfuscated by my mental illness, which is a mental illness because it does not conform to the average everydayness of the they, you disgusting idle talker. 'Write with your blood!' (Nietzsche). You write with nothing!

Words themselves are gendered. In German tree is masculine but plant is feminine.
Gender itself is an arbitrary demarcation of knowledge, which is at base the equating of the different. METAPHOR.
The only truth is in our own identifications and personalities. Being trans is not that chaotic, like say dissociative personality disorder or PTSD (which I have) or catatonic schizophrenia or schizotypal personality disorder or bipolar disorder or BPD or the list goes on. You are hoping it is a disorder because it does not conform with the manner in which you think that you know... But it seems you have already rejected human authenticity for the authenticity of the objective of... Hmmm... God! That absolute truth that tells us what is right and wrong! And what our purpose is!
That is the delusion.

You say you want to be a doctor? Then why don't you actually help people. No psychiatrist today will tell you, if you say you are trans, that you are not transgendered!
My father is a surgeon. I know what it takes to be a doctor, and it is not this form of conceptual nihilism. With this you will never have the strength to get through medical school, much less residency and internships.

The only thing I will say that is positive to you, because you really deserve a good thrashing... Is that I envy your French. I wish I knew French fluently so to be able to read primary source Sartre and Lacan and many others. Eventually I will learn it but until then, being bilingual or multilingual is such an advantage, though one woman I met who spoke fluent Chinese told me that all you need is to know one language completely, and you are just as well based as say, a person who only knows a little of many languages.

but TBH I couldn't care less whether or not you think I have a 'proper' argument when your arguments are that of a dilettante of experience.

You're sad for it I understand, but they have certain legal rights and so can't (yet?) forcibly be committed to mental institutions, as common sense would dictate. — Ciceronianus the White

Idle talk at its finest

Honestly, that Google translation is really good. It cut out 'tongue' from Voltaire's tongue, which makes it silly, but still, its not like you wouldnt understand 'speaking in Voltaire' as meaning french, just like youd understand 'speaking in Shakespear' as meaning english...

As for not understanding my mother tongue, which is kinda fucking funny when you think that I'm a francophone living in a english country only because the French decided to hightail it after a single battle lost, really, what the hell is so precious about the current gender assignation of nouns, that you cant even wrap your head around switching them around? The noun of a dolphin is masculine, that of a table is feminine, whoops suddenly its reversed. Okay it'll sound bad to the ear for a while, but otherwise nothing is lost. Gender is already such an abstract, the Immortals had no problems turning it into a simple linguistic exercise. Its about nouns, not reality. If someone asks you to name them something outrageous, then you get to tell them that. But if 'outrageous' to you is simply accomodating someone because he felt his/her sexual identity wasnt conform to binary norms, then that makes you even worse then a bully. At least the bully knows he's going out of his way to be a pain in the ass of his victims. Bigots do it as easily by simply formulating an opinion.

Also, this 'what would an indefinite pronoun even looks like in French?' Really? I mean, you have spent how many years in existence speaking a language without realizing that the singular masculine of the third person is the default 'lets do nothing to show its conjunction' pronoun?

Pronouns, in this discussion, are not the heart of the issue. They are quite peripheral. The heart of the issue is an individual's invention that he is now a she (or she is now a he). It is the invention that is the problem, not the pronoun.

I will readily grant that a determined person can pull this off, and in many settings can pass. Several times I've witnessed the transformation over time as a sows ear was transitioned into a silk purse. How about a secular Jewish woman transitioning into an ultra-orthodox Jewish male? That change involved moving a lot of mental furniture. My contention is that the individual is INVENTING a new persona. I don't have anything against people inventing new personas for themselves, either. (There are people I wish to hell would find a new persona.) What I object to is the claim that their new persona reflects a biological reality, that they were really the opposite gender all along, and now they are the right one.

No. Biologically, they are pretty much the same body and mind they were before the transition. (How could it be otherwise?) They may have experienced a metanoia -- new life -- (butterfly analogy) and good for them. Excuse me for seeing in them the same worm they were before they sewed on wings.

I might not believe a 45 year old guy is entirely on the level who announces that he is transgender and is going to become a woman. But, you know, he is 45 years old. Old enough to take care of himself, herself, whatever. I find it quite unsatisfactory when young people, children in elementary school, early adolescents just starting puberty, 18 year olds... make the same announcement. This strikes me, frankly, as a social infection.

I suspect that these claims are made under parental influence (in the case of very young children) or because it seems like a solution to "the difficult matter of one's persona -- who the hell am I?" I was gay and confused about my identity for years. I'm glad that I was not pushed into an early and active gay identity, or that "transsexual" or "Transgender" had even been heard of. i've never once thought I was trans in any way, but these days it might be suggested. Peers might encourage it. In the 1950s, of course, such a thing was out of the question.

Human beings operate many delusional systems. Look at religion. I understand that people really and truly believe that God looks after them. I used to subscribe to that delusion too. Once one understands religions as a delusional system, one can't then grant it reality. The same applies to trans-issues. Once one sees it as invention and delusion, one can't credit it with being reality.

18 year olds... make the same announcement. This strikes me, frankly, as a social infection.

I suspect that these claims are made under parental influence (in the case of very young children) or because it seems like a solution to "the difficult matter of one's persona -- who the hell am I?" — Bitter Crank

You are simply wrong. I have a best friend who knew he was trans since a very young age, and was afraid his parents would reject him, which is the reason he held it in for so long. I met him as 'Rachel' and he had long black hair that covered his eyes and he kept to himself at school and was extremely shy.
He is Ryan now. Everyone knows him as Ryan. All of our old friends know him as Ryan. He is Ryan. He has short hair and is so much happier and outgoing being who he is.
You are wrong.

He didn't know being trans was a thing.

I find it quite unsatisfactory when young people, children in elementary school, early adolescents just starting puberty, 18 year olds... make the same announcement. This strikes me, frankly, as a social infection.

I suspect that these claims are made under parental influence (in the case of very young children) or because it seems like a solution to "the difficult matter of one's persona -- who the hell am I?" — Bitter Crank

Adults should listen to the concerns children have about themselves, including depression, gender identity, etc.

It is because you are not considering what I am saying at all nor the others as well.

You are simply wrong. — Blue Lux

Then I will not consider your words as well. If you are incapable of being respectful while discussing then I don't see why I should even bother answering you right now and not just outright ignoring you. It is a simple courtesy, if you can't do so, I will not as well. You can't seems to understand what a debate is, really.

And please, avoid double posting or in your case successive multiple posts. Why can't you put them all in one post?

Okay it'll sound bad to the ear for a while, but otherwise nothing is lost. — Akanthinos

Of course, something is lost. The integrity of a language. You do not get to change the rules of a language because it hurts your feelings, the world won't bend itself over because it hurts your feelings. So what? It's something that everyone experience and I don't see people making manifestations in the streets or asking people to change two thousand years of the history of a language just because. At some point, as I said, it is not the evolution of language that you or others are doing, its the imposition of language. It's completely two different things.

Now, tell me. Why would I accommodate them to fit their own little world? A world filled with self-delusion and lies. You are removing my freedom of speech by compelling me to call someone by what they aren't. Don't go pulling that old argument if someone wants to be called Jake but they aren't named Jake and its bullying if you do otherwise. That's completely two different things, the name Jake doesn't refer to a biological reality/physical appearance nor does it make me adhere to a particular political view because somehow I should. Really.

So what if I don't call them a 'he' or a 'she' or a 'zer'? Do I care if you feel offended because I assumed your gender? No, I don't. Nor will I change my view on the world because it doesn't adhere to your own. At least my view is based on facts, a reality that everyone can understand in time. Are you going to remove my right to have an opinion too then? Where would it stop if transgenderism starts forcing other people to call them 'zer'?

Please review feminist literature and then form your opinion on the idea of gender. Gender is not being "redefined", it is/was already defined but you don't want to accept the common definition. How is that being open minded? Physicality is not necessarily male any more than being prim and proper is intrinsically female. That is the core of many of the movements that define the norms we see as gender(s). Throughout most of history sex and gender have fit like a glove, but by definition they do not have to, and we have hit that moment in history. It is no longer as necessary to be physically fit and able to lift 100 kg as a man to survive, and it is no longer necessary to hold onto certain stereotypical ways women acted, as the end all be all. That is why the idea of gender exists, to delineate between what is physical (sex), and what is not (gender). — yatagarasu

I am sorry but I don't understand the point you are laying out here. Gender is based as much on your behavior and clothes as it is on your physical appearance. In fact, the brain process first the physical appearance to determine whenever or not you can call the person in front of you she or he. Then the rest comes after.

The sex refers to your genitalia, I don't think anyone goes around the streets checking everyone's nether area to tell whenever or not they are male or female, that's where the physical appearance enters in play, as I said.

You are simply wrong. — Blue Lux

Perhaps; perhaps not.

I am glad your friend is happier as Ryan than he was as Rachel. I've read stories about young people like Rachel/Ryan (various ages) and as I mentioned, I've known a number of transsexuals; maybe a dozen since the 1970s--three quite well. I take their perceived and expressed problems seriously, and I respect them as persons. But this isn't about any particular person. It's about a phenomena which has gradually become increasingly visible over the last 60 to 70 years in various countries around the world.

I started out taking the explanations of trans persons at face value, and did so for oh...40 years, at least. It has only been recently that I have started questioning the stated rationale, or etiology of transsexual/transgenderism. Is it organic? Is it caused by the same sort of at-present-unknown-prenatal-or-genetic-conditions that causes sexual orientation?

Or is it caused more by the prompting of social cues? You know, POMO theory says that sexuality and gender are constructed. There's nothing biological about it the POMO camp says. Is the trans movement socially constructed? Does it come out of social views about gendered behavior? Is transsexual/transgenderism a consequence of profound cultural change?

I don't have a dog in this fight (I'm not trans) but I am perplexed, and I don't believe the phenomena has been adequately explained.

Adults should listen to the concerns children have about themselves, including depression, gender identity, etc. — Maw

Of course. But that doesn't mean that everything children say about how they feel amounts to good diagnosis.

and you say nothing in response to the previous page, where I mentioned you several times

Of course. But that doesn't mean that everything children say about how they feel amounts to good diagnosis. — Bitter Crank

Sure. But it's a better starting point than assuming the claim is made under parental influence.