Morals consist of thought/belief about acceptable/unacceptable behaviour. They are the basis for morality. They vary according to cultural and/or familial particulars.
This is true of all morals. We agree here don't we? — creativesoul
I cannot see how morality comes prior to cultural indoctrination. — Merkwurdichliebe
I cannot see the arrival to ethical existence prior to the ability of the individual to separate herself from the culture into which she has been indoctrinated (even if, at that point, she chose to abide with the cultural indoctrination. — Merkwurdichliebe
So in that sense, morality is the tool used for cultural indoctrination. — creativesoul
You are correct in this point. Just consider me thorough. I just want to be sure we have firmly arrived into ethical existence before we finally determine that we have exhausted all the relevant potential sources of moraliy. — Merkwurdichliebe
However, if you mean to direct our attention to the importance that conscious deliberation of one's own (mostly)adopted worldview(including the inculcation aspect of morals) has upon one's moral character, then you'll receive nothing but complete and total agreement from me.
I was going to ask about "ethical existence" but you've answered while I was still formulating this reply. That's an interesting position to put forth. I'm going to carefully consider what I think it means prior to saying more. — creativesoul
I would say that the ethical doesn't actually exist until responsibility is assumed by a deciding agent (no matter how insignificant or illusory). But it is not the responsibility that places one into ethical existence, rather it is the acceptance of the role as the deciding agent that places one there. — Merkwurdichliebe
That's a nice piece of writing. It's a bit too flowery for my disciplinary taste/preference in philosophy(critical and analytic), but the sheer aesthetic value is very much appreciated. The affects of my reading it were visceral. — creativesoul
I have no issue at all with that criterion for what counts as ethical existence. I only balk at the 'accidental' aspect, but would readily accept that too, if you're saying that the indoctrination of culture - as a thing in and of itself - emerged independently of any and all conscious deliberative purpose and prior to our awareness that it was happening.
That would place in squarely in the domain of that which existed in it's entirety prior to our account of it. — creativesoul
I would say that the ethical doesn't actually exist until responsibility is assumed by a deciding agent (no matter how insignificant or illusory). But it is not the responsibility that places one into ethical existence, rather it is the acceptance of the role as the deciding agent that places one there. — Merkwurdichliebe
If A does not exist until B and B is insufficient for A then A is existentially dependent upon more than just B. If C results in A without B then A is existentially dependent upon C and we've arrived at self contradiction with the first premiss. — creativesoul
Either the first premiss is false, or there's an equivocation of "ethical" such that "the ethical doesn't actually exist" is not talking about ethical existence. — creativesoul
This includes those who had such thoughts long before language acquisition, and everyone after. The sadomasochist will still agree that they do not like being harmed by another despite being sexually aroused by some experiencing some forms of pain. They do not consider all pain as harmful, nor do I despite my distaste for painful sexual experiences. — creativesoul
The origen of morals must include both, one's adopted morality via indoctrination and one's own pre-linguistic thought/belief about acceptable/unacceptable behaviour. — creativesoul
I have no issue at all with that criterion for what counts as ethical existence. I only balk at the 'accidental' aspect, but would readily accept that too, if you're saying that the indoctrination of culture - as a thing in and of itself - emerged independently of any and all conscious deliberative purpose and prior to our awareness that it was happening.
That would place in squarely in the domain of that which existed in it's entirety prior to our account of it.
— creativesoul
This is my meaning.
I would argue that this pre-existing entity, although only quasi-ethical (due to its inability for conscious deliberation) provides the necessary environment to cultivate proper ethical existence (qua. conscious deliberation of the moral agent). — Merkwurdichliebe
Perhaps it would have been better to say:
"the ethical only exists as a potentiality, until direct responsibility is assumed by a moral agent (no matter how insignificant or illusory the agent)."
Here, it is possible to conceive of the ethical as coming into being through cultural indoctrination. In becoming, the ethical is presupposed in cultural indoctrination, but until the ethical manifests itself in the live decision of moral agency, it is in a necessarily latent mode, which is quasi-ethical (or the ethical as concept), and not ethical existence proper (as moral being). — Merkwurdichliebe
This includes those who had such thoughts long before language acquisition, and everyone after. The sadomasochist will still agree that they do not like being harmed by another despite being sexually aroused by some experiencing some forms of pain. They do not consider all pain as harmful, nor do I despite my distaste for painful sexual experiences.
— creativesoul
It may be that physical harm and ethical harm differ qualitatively, and while it is possible for them to correlate in some way or another, it is not necessary. They each maintain their sense independent of the other. — Merkwurdichliebe
The origen of morals must include both, one's adopted morality via indoctrination and one's own pre-linguistic thought/belief about acceptable/unacceptable behaviour.
— creativesoul
Indeed, the indoctrination and ethical assimilation into culture, combined with one's enduring pre-linguistic assessments of the desirable, adequately set the stage for the moral agent to appear. Somewhere in this dynamic comes, what I like to call "the original sin": the knowledge of good and evil. The role of the moral agent is most decisive in the transition from ethical becoming to ethical being. Is it, then, possible to say that the "source of morals" can be included under the category of becoming, and "existing morals" under the category of being. — Merkwurdichliebe
Prior to ethical existence, there are many accidental factors that come into play. But once I have assumed the ethically deliberative consciousness, all meaning comes through my decisiveness. I no longer am concerned about my level of conformity to cultural norms, nor about my relation to the desirable. In ethical existence, I am no longer focused outward on the world: as it seems to be, and as it should be; rather, I turn inwardly towards myself: as I seem to be, and as I should be. — Merkwurdichliebe
It may be that physical harm and ethical harm differ qualitatively, and while it is possible for them to correlate in some way or another, it is not necessary. They each maintain their sense independent of the other. — Merkwurdichliebe
I would readily concur. However, ethical harm would surely be a harder thing to pin down and/or find widespread agreement upon. — creativesoul
Our moral feelings are much more complicated. I'm sure you agree. — creativesoul
It's possible to say whatever we want. Is it helpful? Good/evil are a couple of days too old, ya know? There are way too many religious connotations and/or theistic baggage for my tastes. Surely we can do ethics in better ways without depending upon such unwarranted belief systems setting the stage for us, can't we?
That's the whole point of setting out the universal common denominators. Ethics begins when we start considering others. — creativesoul
Certainly. Our moral feelings are informed by language use. — creativesoul
I was only speaking poetically. Oops — Merkwurdichliebe
Certainly. Our moral feelings are informed by language use.
— creativesoul
Moral beliefs are certainly informed by language. — Merkwurdichliebe
Janus
Certainly. Our moral feelings are informed by language use.
— creativesoul
Moral beliefs are certainly informed by language. — Merkwurdichliebe
Our moral feelings are not "raw" or merely instinctive affects, but culturally mediated, conceptually, linguistically and narrationally elaborated affective responses. — Janus
I'm not sure what you mean by "parse these out". — Janus
Our moral feelings are not "raw" or merely instinctive affects, but culturally mediated, conceptually, linguistically and narrationally elaborated affective responses. — Janus
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