No. The only meaningful thing in their life becomes, oxymoronically, their depression. — Heister Eggcart

But I don't think life is ever more "happy" than it does suffer. — Heister Eggcart

Sort of, but not everyone. You're oversimplifying. — Heister Eggcart

It seems like you have ideas but I don't see any real convaincing argument compared to me and what i said, if you have nothing but assertions i would ask you to at least tell me where I'm wrong but not just by affirming things.


Once more i can say :

You judged that "nothing", right or wrong, is worst than life, so in your mind your overall better amount of satisfaction is in life not deah, your case does not contradict my assertion at all. — Hamtatro

Assertion that is "the only goal of a human life is to be happy".
Happy or satisfying compared to the other choice (death), which lead to the same conclusion that the only human goal is the maximisation of his satisfaction.
Someone who chose to live but who suffer more than anything is misunderstanding the concept of death. You don't lose anything being dead nor you suffer or you enjoy something, a common mistake is to compare it to nothing, which is negative, but the notion of absolute nothing of death is not comparable to the nothing of being lonely in a empty room.

It seems like you have ideas but I don't see any real convaincing argument compared to me and what i said, if you have nothing but assertions i would ask you to at least tell me where I'm wrong but not just by affirming things. — Hamtatro

I'm speaking as someone who suffers from depression. I thought I had already made that explicitly clear :\

I clearly understand that you are depressed however it is not because you suffer from something that you won't go to the doctor, telling to your family that you know better than anyone what you have, let's end the conversation since I argue for nothing. You just keep saying the same thing and never clearly prove me wrong, its boring.
I wrote a whole post and you quote the little tiny part that makes you sad ... what an interesting point of view.

>:O what?

try to understand that is not that hard

Well, your English is a bit weird with odd sentence structures, so it is a bit hard to read.

If you are arguing for hedonism, the maximization of pleasure and the minimization of pain, I do not think that you have an argument. First, the whole arguing for hedonism and setting that up as the goal in life, as others in the thread have pointed out, creates the paradoxical situation where we seek pleasure but cannot find it directly. At best, even though maximizing pleasure might be the ultimate reason behind what we do, we might have automatically value certain things because they are the only things necessary and sufficient to achieve happiness. Second, there is the deceived businessman scenario, in which we have two people: 1) a businessman who has a loving family and a good career who is happy, and 2) a businessman who has a loveless family and a bad career, but believes he has a loving family and a good career, so he has the same exact amount of happiness as the businessman in 1). It appears that 1) has the better life, but, if 1) has the better life, then hedonism is false. Third, there is the problem that others alluded to and that I have scratched the surface on personally: no matter how you shake it, life has a greater level of pain than of pleasure. If this is true, then, under hedonism, we run into serious challenges.

Against your argument about depression, it appears to state that depressed people are not really depressed because they have not committed suicide and that they ought to. However, if my third point is true, then they shouldn't necessarily kill themselves, because it is not as if the non-depressed person has it better. Also, as you said, life is not rational, nor are all the decisions we make. I would actually venture to say that there can often be an irrational aspect to a depressed person. Depression is, at the clinical level, a disorder. Even when we drift into non-clinical depression, we may still find some of the same problems as with clinical depression: a cyclic continuation of sadness that prevents the depressed from obtaining things that help with sadness, which causes more sadness, which prevents the depressed from obtaining things that helps with sadness, and so on.

Going out of your way to not experience sadness or pain will only make sadness and pain that much worse. You should openly and freely accept all emotions that come your way. Depression can affect us on a physical level and it's important to know why you feel the way you do. Take time to relax and learn to think deeply about yourself and your feelings. It may not "cure" you but it will help you immensely. Depression isn't the enemy, fighting it is. — Grey

Depression and sadness are two very different situations; I have never had depression, but I have been incredibly sad to a very dangerous point because the latter is based on objective or lived experiences, such as a broken heart when someone deceives you. Depression, on the other hand, is elusive and contains negative sensations that you are unaware of. As it is subconscious, it makes it all the more difficult to overcome because you are unable to reason or articulate it; this is the same with anxiety, only the latter conversely involves frustrated sensations. The only way to overcome either is to decipher the language either through writing or art. When you sense something, express the feelings, draw the images that may be in your mind; communicating emotions is difficult but it needs to be done and sometimes just having someone listen to you without judging you is enough; no one can help you, you just need to release, that is, release it from subjectivity and raise it up to consciousness, to the objective realm so that you are able to articulate it and understand it. Only through understanding can the heavy emotions dissipate.

It is also important to recognise that sometimes these feelings are intuitive and it is really you trying to talk to you, signalling that something is wrong. It could mean a situation that you are in, say for instance you are in an unhappy relationship, or that you there is something that occurred in your past that you have yet to confront, that you are in an existential angst because you are unsuccessful etc. Sometimes, it is also because you are unable to make decisions for yourself and because it is in our nature to eventually transcend and become of independent mind, our failure to do this divides us between being like everyone else and being ourselves that we get confused or caught in an existential limbo. There may be a lot to filter through, but take it one step at a time; as I always say, be concerned about how to cross the bridge only when you get to it. Focus on a plan, set goals, and read or write or draw as much as you are able. The emptiness will slowly start to heal as you start taking better care of yourself.

People who smoke or take drugs or even conversely those who slice and dice their bodies toward a supposed perfection essentially have mental health issues, even if they present themselves as happy people because our society has enabled these types to appear normal. I overcame much of my past lived experiences and there was a lot to go through by taking care of myself, by learning and reading, eating right and exercising, enjoying my own company and taking care of others in need, which are all signals of someone who is of right mind. But it took a lot of work, courage, patience and tears and no doubt there are still some obstacles I will need to face.

It is not easy but I am taking my sweet time knowing that this healing is permanent and I have strengthened to a point that I know will mean that I will no longer be affected by either my past or indeed my present because I care about me. I recommend that you never give a fuck what anyone thinks because your health and life is paramount and by being able to articulate the reasons for those feelings, you will take control of your life permanently and not simply wash it down with a couple of pills.

There's no "why" to going on living. You go on living because you are alive, simple. That's not a reason for it, simply how things are. — Agustino

but how can I achieve this mindstate? I want to believe this. What I really want is to be able to accept that I am here and just live life. Deep inside I don't want to hurt myself, my family and friends, but also I am extremely suicidal and don't know what to do.

but how can I achieve this mindstate? I want to believe this. What I really want is to be able to accept that I am here and just live life. Deep inside I don't want to hurt myself, my family and friends, but also I am extremely suicidal and don't know what to do. — rossii

Taking care of yourself is not an easy endeavour and some people are caught in a continuous loop like a scratched record because they refuse to take that step of separating themselves from the world around them. Some even thirst for drama as though their identity is based this heavy burden, as though they refuse happiness.

I admittingly do not understanding suicidal thoughts but I was in danger of death once because I was sad from multiple and rather negative experiences that I stopped eating properly. That is because I put others before me. To achieve the 'mind-state' as you call it is to first and foremost start taking care of yourself. See it as a strategy, a first of many steps, but setting a health goal and working toward achieving that is essential. It could be to eat less fatty foods and more protein or to quit smoking or to get to a healthy weight range, what you eat and exercise is fundamental to a healthy mind. The second is to express yourself, release these feelings even if they make no sense and this can be done through writing, through art, and through verbal communication including talking to a counsellor or a good friend, or some random dude you are sitting next to on a train and freak them out a bit, haha. See each moment as a puzzle piece that you will over time be able to connect to one another. So, the strategy is, each time you feel a way that is effecting you, try to write about it or draw the images going on in your mind at the time; build on your subjective language. But you need to release. Finally, you need a strategy or a life-long goal to work on; this could be study or employment but you need to follow your heart and find yourself something that you can do actively. Set a temporal goal, or what is known as a 'five-year plan' and try working toward it. I set myself a goal that I will be working internationally in five years in the field that I want to be in and as each month passes, I feel that goal getting closer and closer. But this goal needs to be something that you LOVE. I am not there yet, as in have not reached the goal that I love, but I am strategically working towards it. Try to find out what you love and if you don't know, study. Study, read, study and learn and something will pique your interest and that will open the doors for you.

Life is a responsibility that you must accept is yours and taking care of yourself is a sign of independence. No one should make you feel crappy and if they do, you need to re-arrange your life to eliminate them from it, even if that means your family and friends. You are paramount. And only when you are healed and in control can you invite others to participate in sharing your life with you.

I'm with him on this:


Life is what you do while you're waiting to die. There's no point in suicide, because you're going to die anyway. Why the fuck would you hurry? What's the reason for doing that? You will die anyway - there's no point in committing suicide, death will come by itself. Until then, you have a little bit of time that you can use to do whatever - or nothing at all - until death comes and takes you. Again - this is the fundamental fact of existence. There's nothing you have to do - you are free - that's what being free means. There's no imperative - it's up to you what you will do.

This isn't to say that there is no morality. Of course there is morality, only that it's your choice to follow it, just as it's a choice not to follow it. If there was some imperative, then there could be no freedom of choice. Because there is no imperative, there is freedom of choice.

but how can I achieve this mindstate? — rossii

By understanding what I just wrote. Suicide is pointless precisely because death is inevitable. Why would you hurry to be dead? It's not like you could even avoid it.

Deep inside I don't want to hurt myself, my family and friends, but also I am extremely suicidal and don't know what to do. — rossii

Great, so then don't hurt yourself, your family and your friends. What would be the point of doing that?

It appears that 1) has the better life, but, if 1) has the better life, then hedonism is false — Chany

I don't see why 1 would have the better life than 2, if 2 see his life as if it was the life of 1. The quality of your life is in your mind, like everything else, I mean it is simple science not even philosophy.

life has a greater level of pain than of pleasure. If this is true, then, under hedonism, we run into serious challenges — Chany

Hedonism is about happiness not about the number of great or bad things that happens to you. Its all about how people see their lives not about how they actually are.

However, if my third point is true, then they shouldn't necessarily kill themselves, because it is not as if the non-depressed person has it better — Chany

This idea sounds like the kind of jokes that people do to make fun of philosophy haha . And anyway your third point is false.
And if you were right, the good conclusion is that everyone should kill themselves and not that the depressive should stay alive.

Thanks for your reply it was interesting :)

I don't see why 1 would have the better life than 2, if 2 see his life as if it was the life of 1. The quality of your life is in your mind, like everything else, I mean it is simple science not even philosophy. — Hamtatro

Which would you prefer: the life of 1) or the life of 2)? I prefer 1), and I would venture most would agree with me.

Also, I do not like people using the word "science" to describe what effectively is philosophy. I've had enough of that on this site.

Hedonism is about happiness not about the number of great or bad things that happens to you. Its all about how people see their lives not about how they actually are. — Hamtatro

Hedonism is about pleasurable experiences and painful experiences. It may not necessarily break down into utilitarianism (though I find it hard not to go there), but it remains that ultimately, pleasure is good and pain is bad. Something that happens to you that is painful is bad under hedonism and something that happens to you that is pleasurable is good for you under hedonism. People's perception of their quality of life may influence how they handle pleasure and pain, but it does not ultimately determine whether they life was of good quality or not. A person who is in serious pain in every waking moment but judges their life to be of relatively good quality does not appear to have a good life. This is not to say that people living with serious pain cannot have good lives or that their lives are necessarily worse than those without such pain. However, it is odd to say that one's perception of life is all that matters and the actual content of their life is irrelevant. Especially given my third point:

This idea sounds like the kind of jokes that people do to make fun of philosophy haha . And anyway your third point is false. — Hamtatro

It is not a joke. There is serious discussion to be had about how much pleasure there really is in life, and whether we can seriously lead it. Take, for instance, nostalgia. Nostalgia occurs when we look at the past and recall all the happy moments and fondly remember those times. However, we know that people tend to forget all the bad things when they look back on the past. They tend to forget the painful moments, the long stretches of repetitively mundane and pointless actions, and can effectively fabricate a false past. With this in mind and other pieces of evidence (like how memories are reconstructions the past and that they can go very wrong), we have reason to believe that people are not necessarily good judges of how good their lives actually are. There is a book called Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence by David Benatar which has received attention and uses this point to argue for anti-natalism and voluntary extinction of the human race.

We can look at the pessimists, existentialists, the Stoics; heck, even Epicureans, and they were hedonists. We see a line of thought: popular notions of happiness are faulty and we need to find a way of living beyond such notions.

We can look at the pessimists, existentialists, the Stoics; heck, even Epicureans, and they were hedonists. — Chany

Stoics have had nothing to say about pleasure. However, I think every religion and most ethical theories have concluded that endless pleasure or the pursuit of pleasure for pleasures sake is misleading to the path of happiness.

As a part Buddhist I think desires originating from the desire for pleasure are a false loop as Buddhism describes.

Ask any drug addict.

I think every religion and most ethical theories have concluded that endless pleasure or the pursuit of pleasure for pleasures sake is misleading to the path of happiness. — Question

No arguments here.

Which would you prefer: the life of 1) or the life of 2)? I prefer 1), and I would venture most would agree with me. — Chany

Well honestly I don't really care as far as I'm equally happy in both of them, and anyway whatever I respond the conclusion stay the same. I would say the life of 1 since I have more chances to stay happy if I have real reasons but it doesnt change the veracity of my assertion which is that happiness is in your mind.

Also, I do not like people using the word "science" to describe what effectively is philosophy. I've had enough of that on this site. — Chany

It is not philosophy that the world is nothing without our brain : what is good, what is bad, which color is front of you, what you feel etc is up to you. I think we can agree on that without problem.

There is a book called Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence — Chany

This book is pure gold and i was about to tell you about it haha :) . By the way if you have something similar to recommend me that would be awesome.

here is serious discussion to be had about how much pleasure there really is in life, and whether we can seriously lead it — Chany

A person who is in serious pain in every waking moment but judges their life to be of relatively good quality does not appear to have a good life — Chany

I find more logic to say that the pleasures and pains are just part of an overall happiness.
Example, someone who is feeling a perfect sensation of pleasure during his whole life but that doesnt like that and is depressed have clearly a bad life, no one would like to live this.
But if hedonism is true then my example is false.
If I'm right, and if hedonism is false, then someone who is suffering his whole life but who is happy with it and wants to continue living have a "good" life.

But to he honest I find these examples really bad, because pain and pleasure are two "only good" or "only bad " things by definition, however a life is full of "neutral" things that you can feel differently.

They tend to forget the painful moments, the long stretches of repetitively mundane and pointless actions — Chany

But the way you feel these moments is only up to you, even if by the time most people will forget a bit about their pain, most of what makes a person happy is the way he feel his everyday life.
What makes you like your life, is it your happiness or your ratio good/bad ? It is your happiness which is the final value(positive or negative) that you give to the ratio of good/bad(positive or negative).



Is a life worth living ? Some say yes if you like it(1), some say yes if your ratio good/bad is positive(2), some say yes if your ratio good/bad is only made of good (3).

But there is no answer since life has no purpose, is the purpose of your life to be happy then (1) is right ? Is the purpose of your life to experiment pleasure then (2) or is your life valuable only if you experience the perfection then (3) ?
1: why not.
2: seems retarded.
3: why not. I like it the most.

So, the best is to never be, the second best is either to kill yourself(1) or to be happy(2).
If not 2 then 1.
This is my opinion and, since like i said life has no purpose, everyone is right, so I am right :).
If however you agree with me then you should agree that perfect and incurable depression should lead to suicide.

There is in my mind more evidences that the purpose of life is (1) since this is the final goal of every of our actions,which make it, if not the purpose of life, the purpose of every human being. And if I'm wrong, then please give me an example.

owever, I think every religion and most ethical theories have concluded that endless pleasure or the pursuit of pleasure for pleasures sake is misleading to the path of happiness. — Question

You mean physical pleasure ?

I don't think so. More like when pleasure is detached from anything else, where the goal is pleasure, as opposed to doing something which is pleasurable.

The former is an image which is never lived, a neverending promise ("Just get some more pleasure, then you'll have a worthwhile life" ) which never gets fulfilled, even though it's sought. It can only lead to disappointment because it never gets achived.

When discussing ethics, people often make the mistake of using this abstract notion of pleasure to define motivation and worth. It's forgotten that pleasure must be achieved by a means of living, and the nature of this means is critical. Much of the time doing something which achieves pleasure is exactly what a person does not want to do.

I wouldn't want to have sex while I was writing this post. It would just be distracting and hinder me from doing what was important. Most of our lives are defined by avoiding various actions which would bring pleasure because we have more important things to do.

Yes, for the most part.

There can be pleasure derived from spiritual practice though. Though, I think if you look at it closely it all comes down to physical pleasure,

I wouldn't want to have sex while I was writing this post. It would just be distracting and hinder me from doing what was important. Most of our lives are defined by avoiding various actions which would bring pleasure because we have more important things to do. — TheWillowOfDarkness

I like doing philosophy if you know what I mean, haha.

Most of our lives are defined by avoiding various actions which would bring pleasure because we have more important things to do. — TheWillowOfDarkness

I think that if it is more important it is because it leads to more pleasure, or less overall pain / more overall pleasure to do these things instead of having an immediate satisfaction

I don't think so. More like when pleasure is detached from anything else, where the goal is pleasure, as opposed to doing something which is pleasurable. — TheWillowOfDarkness

Well i do take drugs time to time and it is because i want to feel good for a period of time (party) , it is not different than anything else that is pleasurable, you do it because it leads to a feeling of pleasure

There can be pleasure derived from spiritual practice though. Though, I think if you look at it closely it all comes down to physical pleasure, — Question

It depends what you mean, if i like to cook it is my pleasure to do so and it is not physical, but at the end it is the same thing which happen in my brain as if I was having sex, which is physical.

It depends what you mean, if i like to cook it is my pleasure to do so and it is not physical, but at the end it is the same thing which happen in my brain as if I was having sex, which is physical. — Hamtatro

Well, I had a thread about peoples obsession with sex. Thing is people never be satisfied with it. Schopenhauer would agree. Cioran would say its a waste of time as sadness is the only real thing in life.

Kinda like that rat in a cage?

Some Cioran:

It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.
Man starts over again everyday, in spite of all he knows, against all he knows.

Well i do take drugs time to time and it is because i want to feel good for a period of time (party) , it is not different than anything else that is pleasurable, you do it because it leads to a feeling of pleasure — Hamtatro

Don't do that. Mind altering substances only distort life from the real important things in it.

What's wrong with being depressed? — Question

The only thing "wrong" with depression, is that in many of it's forms, it's temporary, ameliorable or curable as is highly evident by numerous (if not most) cases in which it manifests. Otherwise, and ultimatum, what is "right" about depression it is simply the acknowledgement of the "disenchantment of the world". Perhaps this is best expressed by the Hungarian philosopher, László F. Földényi, who argues that there is a dichotomy (but not diremption) between depression, which is medicinal, vs. melancholy, which is an existential weltanschauung

The only thing "wrong" with depression, is that in many of it's forms, it's temporary, ameliorable or curable as is highly evident by numerous (if not most) cases in which it manifests. — Maw

This is not the heart of the issue. The issue is that the individual rebels from the demands of society because he or she (more often males, though feminism is an expression of this rebellion against male privileged ones, which I agree with) feels that something is not right, deep down. Perhaps people with depression are more empathetic or sensitive(defense mechanism?) to the workings of a world that is deterministic or non-deterministic or without objective truths, whereas psychopathic traits seem to be valued and even encouraged in society (reason without emotion is quite literally psychopathy). However, the depression itself is a manifestation for the yearning for objective truth, which sometimes in its deepest forms is seen in the affirmation of death through suicide and that act is objective and clear.

Anyway, the heart of the issue; society is to blame for being depressed, not the individual.

If depression is an illness why isn't elation one?:-}

distort life from the real important things in it. — Question

which are ^^ ?

which are ^^ ? — Hamtatro

To live with the expectation that one does not demand from life what one wishes but the situation and fortune he or she have been given, and make the best out of it.

I whish i was that kind of guy.


And anyway taking drugs time to time never kill you, it depends which drug also, in which situation, with who and how often.

Question

Is looking for the Lapis Philosophorum, which is the transmutation of self by some means.

Ahh, the self. Such an abstract concept.