Evil can be chased away only with incense and torture but issue is that evil today has run out of control not by amount of evil but rather by count of people tolerating evil. — SpaceDweller

The alternative, mon ami, is worse: Should the good retaliate (tit-for-tat)? That would be moral suicide, oui? Evil only understands evil, eh?

As fire drives out fire... — Brutus

So human laws that deal with human evils which have been labeled as such by other humans.
So do you agree that evil does not exist as a fundamental force/power outside of sentient lifeforms? — universeness

Yes agree, evil is unique to humans, ex. saying that a Lion or Tiger are evil because they eat other animals is nonsense because animals are driven by survival instincts and animals also do not know good and evil unlike humans.

Do you think evil has a metaphysical existence? — universeness

If by existence you refer to the devil or the devil tempting people to do evil then I would rather say that this is spiritual existence of evil.
but otherwise evil is product of people rather than thing or a being which could exist.

Why would evil be scared of torture? is evil not masochistic? Why would evil be afraid of one of its own manifestations? That of torturing others. — universeness

Torture is more effective than laws because one is less likely to commit evil works knowing the consequence.

Compared to all times past? Compared to early tribal cultures? Compared to during the holocaust? — universeness

Yes because punishment for evil in earlier times was more adequate than it is today.

It's the winter of human kind
What has become if us?
What made us blind?

If by existence you refer to the devil or the devil tempting people to do evil then I would rather say that this is spiritual existence of evil.
but otherwise evil is product of people rather than thing or a being which could exist — SpaceDweller

Could evil exist as a quantum field or as a consequence of subatomic interactions or as opposite magnetic poles such as positive and negative attractions, as proposed by @Hillary?

Why would evil be scared of torture? is evil not masochistic? Why would evil be afraid of one of its own manifestations? That of torturing others.
— universeness
Torture is more effective than laws because one is less likely to commit evil works knowing the consequence — SpaceDweller

But my question was why do you think pure undiluted evil could be defeated by torturing it?

Yes because punishment for evil in earlier times was more adequate than it is today. — SpaceDweller

So what forms of earlier punishments would you recommend bringing back?
Would you bring back the death penalty for all evil acts or just some and how do you prevent the death of the small minority, who are later discovered to be innocent?

Could evil exist as a quantum field or as a consequence of subatomic interactions or as opposite magnetic poles such as positive and negative attractions, as proposed by Hillary? — universeness

Panpsychism!

Yes agree, evil is unique to humans, ex. saying that a Lion or Tiger are evil because they eat other animals is nonsense because animals are driven by survival instincts and animals also do not know good and evil unlike humans. — SpaceDweller

Animals can be good and bad too. They defend their children or fellows from bad forces. Like the lion saving his pall from the evil group of sharky biting hyenas.

Yes because punishment for evil in earlier times was more adequate than it is today.
1h — SpaceDweller

Why should evil be punished or prevented in the first place?

It's the winter of human kind — Hillary

Thank goodness for drops in temperature or life would just be too hot to live.
I love the winter, (snow, snowballs, wearing thick warm clothing, its good to know cold as it allows you to enjoy the experience of getting warm. Too warm can be good as well as you can enjoy a really cold beer much more than you can in the winter)

What has become if us? — Hillary

We are still here! hi hillary! :smile:

What made us blind? — Hillary

Nefarious b******* who poke you in the eye too much, staring at the Sun without proper protection, medical conditions that science hasn't found a solution to YET, GO TRANSHUMANISM!!

Panpsychism — Hillary

Are you a polytheistic panpsychist?
Panpsychism does not suggest the fundamental building blocks of consciousness are inherently good or evil. Compare tasting each ingredient of a cake and then taste the cake, would you say the cake tastes good or evil? based on how good or evil each ingredient tasted?

Evil can be chased away only with incense — SpaceDweller

I thought I may as well ask you about this one as well.
Are you suggesting that if I was an evil deranged serial killer in the house of my next intended victim and I was ready to strike, that I may be dissuaded from my evil act if my intended victim lit some incense?
Certain smells can cause evil to run away in fear? Is that what you are suggesting?

Could evil exist as a quantum field or as a consequence of subatomic interactions or as opposite magnetic poles such as positive and negative attractions, as proposed by Hillary? — universeness

No, definitely not.

But my question was why do you think pure undiluted evil could be defeated by torturing it? — universeness

I told you, because it would scare sh**t out of potential future evil doers.

So what forms of earlier punishments would you recommend bringing back? — universeness

All of them, including most horrible such as crucifixion, skinning a live or greek bull.

Would you bring back the death penalty for all evil acts or just some — universeness

I would bring or judge death penalty only for evil acts which cause death of whomever.

how do you prevent the death of the small minority, who are later discovered to be innocent? — universeness

you can't prevent any death that is later discovered innocent because who ever is in question is already dead.
What is possible is to investigate what misjudgement happened and then apply adequate punishment.

I thought I may as well ask you about this one as well.
Are you suggesting that if I was an evil deranged serial killer in the house of my next intended victim and I was ready to strike, that I may be dissuaded for my evil act if my indented victim lit some incense?
Certain smells can cause evil to run away in fear? Is that what you are suggesting? — universeness

You don't use incense to deal with serial killer or to defend against him :smile:

-----------------

I know this sounds horrible but the evil that we're talking about is things like mass killings in the US, war crimes, raping a child and similar.
to prevent such evil punishment must be severe.

Why should evil be punished or prevented in the first place? — Hillary

because nobody wants evil.

because nobody wants evil. — SpaceDweller

But it exists in the very basics of the universe. To get rid of it means to get rid of the universe and humanity. The evil is part of all of us. That's why science is scary.

Evil can be chased away only with incense — SpaceDweller

You maybe onto something. Certain kinds of music can defuse a tense situation. It works the other way round too, aggravate an already very volatile situation.

Why not smell too? Pheromones, perfume, cologne...what do they do?

But my question was why do you think pure undiluted evil could be defeated by torturing it?
— universeness
I told you, because it would scare sh**t out of potential future evil doers. — SpaceDweller

Dear mother of gods...

Pheromones, perfume, cologne...what do they do? — Agent Smith

Don't get me started, brother Agent! :starstruck:

But it exists in the very basics of the universe. To get rid of it means to get rid of the universe and humanity. The evil is part of all of us. That's why science is scary. — Hillary

evil part of universe?? maybe, but then your understanding of what is evil is not same as mine.

evil part of universe?? — SpaceDweller

Of what else?

to prevent such evil punishment must be severe — SpaceDweller

Is this not just some humans trying to be more brutal or evil towards those who have committed the most evil acts? The way to stop someone from being evil, is to threaten them with an evil more evil that their evil. All you do with that approach imo is to create competition amongst those who are evil.

Here is an example someone came up with as a punishment for those who commit the most evil acts in our modern society. It starts with an old idea.

They are placed alive in the same coffin as one or more of their victims. But they will be constrained to an apparatus around the body of, but they will not be able to touch their victim. There will be various illuminations, recording equipment and some worms and bugs etc included in the coffin, which will be buried at the traditional depth.
The killer will be naked and have two tubes down their throat and they will have a small breather unit connected to their nose, which will not close off their ability to smell. These will be connected to an automated system outside of the grave.
This system will maintain the life of the killer by force-feeding them food and water. any waste produced will just add to the punishment. They will have to watch the deterioration of their victim as well as feel the result of that deterioration move towards themselves. This process will be filmed to study the killer's descent into probable madness. These recordings will then be used to scare other potential offenders. Do you approve of this idea or do you think this shows that hell, horror and terror are only limited by what a human imagination can perceive? I am sure someone could come up with an even worse punishment than this quite disturbing suggestion. Do you really think that encouraging competitive evil is the way forward for a future human justice system?

Is that supposed to be a punishment? How lovely it would be to be just buried, get your food and drink, and just lay back... only the pile of excrements will gonna be smelly...

Do you approve of this idea or do you think this shows that hell, horror and terror are only limited by what a human imagination can perceive? I am sure someone could come up with an even worse punishment than this quite disturbing suggestion. Do you really think that encouraging competitive evil is the way forward for a future human justice system? — universeness

Absolutely not. I think resorting to evil to to deal with evil as a general approach is stunted and just smacks of a person who is aroused by and interested in abject cruelty.

Problem arises when we consider evil to be opposite integrally to good when it's more Boolean opposed.

Good is harmony pertained between matching and mismatching behaviours.

Humankind and animals live together, therefore not all human or animal personalities are acceptable. In black and white, humans are hot, terrifying creatures who might come across as too violent to an amount of things(bar animals who accept friendly violence).

Good is an automatic behavioural norm adjusted depending on natural selection; behavioural norms can theoretically vary.

Evil are the beahviours out of the realm of good or expiring normal behaviours.

Morality and immorality suggests this.

Morality and immorality exhibits imbalance and balance in my opinion having read the word here a total of 1,897,875 times.

What I wondered is how is balance and imbalance achieved concerning behaviour and Eureka! I thought of behavioural norms.

Mankind is NOT the only populus, considering both alive and dead things. It meddles with other things so it's persona is tested, must appease it's luxuries, and quarry burdens.

It cannot at any time abuse what it's got or it at least will think negative thoughts.

On negative thoughts we move onto forgiveness of evil which lies in mental and physical handicaps.

Is that supposed to be a punishment? How lovely it would be to be just buried, get your food and drink, and just lay back... only the pile of excrements will gonna be smelly.. — Hillary

You can always volunteer to be the first to try out the punishment! I certainly wont volunteer.

Absolutely not. I think resorting to evil to to deal with evil as a general approach is stunted and just smacks of a person who is aroused by and interested in abject cruelty. — Tom Storm

It's always nice to hear a logical voice of reason and rationality break through the din of irrational thinking Tom. :100: :clap: :party:

It's always nice to hear a logical voice of reason and rationality break through the din of irrational thinking Tom — universeness

That Voice will lead to the demise of humanity and the planet it lives on. Only if we say farewell to reason (Feyerabend) we might have chance to survive. Only when modern day man looses their mind, we (and all other life) stand a chance.

You can always volunteer to be the first to try out the punishment! I certainly wont volunteer — universeness

Well, a few weeks maybe...

Well, a few weeks maybe.. — Hillary

Yeah, that's what I figured you would say! :flower: :death:
We can always say 'sure' to you, 'we will release you in time.' :halo:

Yeah, that's what I figured you would say! — universeness

:lol:

We get to know each other, brother zuni! Flowers of death...

We get to know each other, brother zuni! Flowers of death... — Hillary

Flowers of death are all the human race will have to offer each other if our justice system becomes one that desires vengeance based on competitive evil.
Anyone who desires a punishment deterrent based on being more evil than the evil perpetrated on victims by evil people, are asking for a dystopian society.

Anyone who desires a punishment deterrent based on being more evil than the evil perpetrated on victims by evil people, are asking for a dystopian society. — universeness

If institutionalized, yes. In the US it is still allowed. A humane lethal injection. Without pain. You just fall asleep. I sign for it... :flower: :death: :party:

If institutionalized, yes. In the US it is still allowed. A humane lethal injection. Without pain. You just fall asleep. I sign for it.. — Hillary

Capital punishment by lethal injection does not fit the kind of deterrent punishments suggested by @SpaceDweller. My dialogue was about his suggestions for a future human justice system.
Any capital punishment runs the risk of executing someone who is later found to have been innocent. I remain conflicted on the issue of capital punishment for the more extreme crimes.
I have a lot of sympathy for the viewpoint 'better that all the guilty remain alive, than one innocent is executed by mistake.'

They are placed alive in the same coffin as one or more of their victims. But they will be constrained to an apparatus around the body... — universeness

Your imagination for punishment methods is funny, but some facts about most severe evil must be taken into account:

1. We learned from history that excess use of torture to deal with evil is counter productive because it leads to false accusations and public unrest.
Serious evil like war crimes, child rape or mass shootings happens on rare occasions therefore harsh punishment would be used only is such rare cases causing no problems for society.

2. Using evil such as torture to punish evil doer should be reciprocal, that is not more evil than evil that the evil doer did.

3. It is up to debate how to measure evil and what asymmetric evils to apply for evil as punishment.
For example if someone killed 15 people it would be stupid to perform symmetric evil such as to kill 15 members of his relatives in return, killing the person who killed 15 as a punishment is not ideal as well since that's 1 life for 15 and is not painful at all compared to pain of the people whose relatives were killed by him.
Instead asymmetric evil of equal weight may be Cangue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangue leaving the person to the mercy of those who lost their relatives, let them decide and let everyone know what will happen if such evil happens again.

Do you really think that encouraging competitive evil is the way forward for a future human justice system? — universeness

Yes as long there is guarantee that such punishments are not abused and used only for most serious and most disgusting crimes.

For example if someone killed 15 people it would be stupid to perform symmetric evil such as to kill 15 members of his relatives in return, killing the person who killed 15 as a punishment is not ideal as well since that's 1 life for 15 and is not painful at all compared to pain of the people whose relatives were killed by him.
Instead asymmetric evil of equal weight may be Cangue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangue leaving the person to the mercy of those who lost their relatives, let them decide — SpaceDweller

Sixteen times a lethal injection. Or four electric chairs, four gallows, four bullets, and four injections. At choice, maybe...

Capital punishment by lethal injection does not fit the kind of deterrent punishments suggested by SpaceDweller. My dialogue was about his suggestions for a future human justice system. — universeness

It's not only about deterrent, but you seem to be suggesting that it's inhumane to perform torture as a punishment, Cangue ie. as a punishment is perfect to let us see how humane are those seeking for justice.
If relatives who lost their family decide to stop the punishment we can call the society humane, but I'm sure most won't be humane when it touches them.
It's easy to be humane If some evil doesn't touch you or me, but what if you seek justice because someone killed your family? would you be humane instead of seeking fair justice?
maybe you would, but we are all different. someone else would not.