So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino
I referenced working at McD's in a positive light in terms of that being your start. You wouldn't be like other McD's workers - you would actually care about customers, put soul into serving them, try to speak with them, be nice, kind, bear with the lack of nobilities coming from your collegues - do great work for the sake of work. And then you'd go home, and study, work, learn. Sooner or later, you'd graduate McD's.For instance, you recently referenced working for McDonalds in a positive light. I could think of any number of reasons why working for McD's is morally reprehensible. — Noble Dust
Trust me - London isn't much different. I understand it. That's why I don't live in such cities.I would venture to guess you don't have much first hand experience in understanding this ethos. — Noble Dust
No, I don't think their corporate "greed" is what's reprehensible. What's reprehensible is that you're there just for status. Not to work. Not to do a great job. You're there for the parties and for the sniffing of cocaine and the driving of expensive cars. That's who you sold your life to - not to work.Of course I agree with you that working for Chase, or some such, is morally reprehensible. — Noble Dust
No. There's never too much work. Work sets man free.Do you not consider workaholism a problem? — Noble Dust
The industry they work in is irrelevant. It's the hypocrisy of working for status, fast cars, women, etc. that is in question.What about those who work in the publishing industry (allowing you to read the books you read), or the art world (setting the bar on what is and isn't art, as ridiculous as it is?) I'm saying this as someone who lives here, and has my own harsh criticisms of the ethos here. — Noble Dust
A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? Would you curse ants, worms and dust?Sometimes life seems a gift, other times, it seems a curse. — Noble Dust
People who help others are remembered. People who inspire others are remembered. People who render service unto the world, and do their duty to God - they are remembered. People who care just about themselves and enjoying life - they are not remembered - they send themselves straight to the fires of hell.Furthermore, you began by using language of "remembered by", and now you switch to begging the question of "throwing life away". So it seems you're equating the value of life with being "remembered". This is what I have issue with. — Noble Dust
The problem here is this mindset places the impetus on the person to develop those skills. The reality is that context, environment, is what enables or prevents someone from developing those skills. This means the onus is not specifically on them to make such developments, at least during developmental stages. — Noble Dust
A "tough love" approach to the problem of suicide, like you're using here, is incredibly inappropriate. Tough love is appropriate when dealing with someone unwilling to face the cold hard reality of their situation. "Soft love", if you will (as the alternative to tough love), is appropriate when dealing with someone unable to even acknowledge their own self-worth. Survey any number of depressives or suicidals, and 99.9% will tell you they fit the latter category. Telling someone at risk of suicide that they're "taking it all far too seriously" has a high potential of that person taking you far too seriously, and ending their life. — Noble Dust
I referenced working at McD's in a positive light in terms of that being your start. You wouldn't be like other McD's workers - you would actually care about customers, put soul into serving them, try to speak with them, be nice, kind, bear with the lack of nobilities coming from your collegues - do great work for the sake of work. And then you'd go home, and study, work, learn. Sooner or later, you'd graduate McD's. — Agustino
No, I don't think their corporate "greed" is what's reprehensible. — Agustino
What's reprehensible is that you're there just for status. Not to work. Not to do a great job. You're there for the parties and for the sniffing of cocaine and the driving of expensive cars. That's who you sold your life to - not to work. — Agustino
No. There's never too much work. Work sets man free. — Agustino
A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? Would you curse ants, worms and dust? — Agustino
People who help others are remembered. People who inspire others are remembered. People who render service unto the world, and do their duty to God - they are remembered. — Agustino
He would. Just that most people who choose to work there have other reasons.So the bank teller at Chase wouldn't be able to do a similarly upstanding job? — Noble Dust
Never. It is a man's duty to do as much as possible for the world and for his fellow men while alive and capable. Moving up can help with that. What's the goal? Doing your duty.then when exactly does the moving up become reprehensible? Once you start working at Chase, or what? What exactly is this goal of moving through the ranks? — Noble Dust
I agree. But their aspiration isn't to work. It's to drive expensive cars, and have lots of women around them.Once again...someone working for Chase (or more accurately), Wall Street, may have these aspirations. And that's not a good thing. — Noble Dust
How about you start telling me why workaholism is a problem then instead of beating around the bush and sending me to do research?But let me try to spell it out more succinctly: There is an ethos of workaholism in NYC. The impetus for this depends on many factors. That was my original argument here. Workaholism can be a problem; for instance, in a city like NYC. You can either dispute this claim by doing some research on workaholism in NYC, or assume that, as someone who lives here, I'm on to something. *shrug* I honestly don't even care — Noble Dust
That's his problem.No, but the worm may curse itself. — Noble Dust
Yes, what's the issue with it? You dispute the value of helping others, inspiring others, and doing your duty to God?Remembered...remembered...remembered... — Noble Dust
This isn't an area I know much about, I'm just spouting off on the internet, so anyone in crisis shouldn't take anything I say to heart. — Sivad
He would. Just that most people who choose to work there have other reasons. — Agustino
Never. It is a man's duty to do as much as possible for the world and for his fellow men while alive and capable. What's the goal? Doing your duty. — Agustino
I agree. But their aspiration isn't to work. It's to drive expensive cars, and have lots of women around them. — Agustino
How about you start telling me why workaholism is a problem then instead of beating around the bush and sending me to do research? — Agustino
That's his problem. — Agustino
Yes, what's the issue with it? You dispute the value of helping others, inspiring others, and doing your duty to God? — Agustino
No, not in the beginning at least. People at that level still take prestige though - they work at JPM while their friends work at McD's - in their local environment, they see themselves as kings.Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions). — Noble Dust
No, that is just impossible. Not even death can prohibit a man from doing his duty. It's just he himself who can do that.So rising through the ranks would never lead to a position that would prohibit a "man" from doing his duty? — Noble Dust
As much as possible for others and for the world - yes.So, doing a "man's" duty is to "do as much as possible"? Is that it? — Noble Dust
I don't have time to check through all those links at the moment, if you could provide me a summary, like, workaholism leads to these problems:Here's a few links at random:
http://newyorkbehavioralhealth.com/workaholism
http://www.workaholics-anonymous.org/
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/your-money/getting-workaholics-to-stop-and-recharge.html
http://nyhre.org/events/a-bio-psychosocial-perspective-on-addiction-from-heroin-to-workaholism-by-dr-gabor-mate/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/nyc-workaholism-map_n_5336981.html — Noble Dust
So you'd rather have me fake that it is my problem? You'd rather have me lie to your face, and tell you that I can give you a sense of self-worth, so that you'll forever remain stuck and bound to me, like a slave and a sheep? Is that it then? Would you rather have me look at you as a child, who has no chance to rise up by himself - who is weak and helpless - maybe just what you see when you look in the mirror. But I don't - because I know there's more to you.Oh, so it's not your problem? Idiot. You have no sense of empathy. What I meant by that is that some people have no sense of self-worth, based on their life experiences, which ties back to the topic of this thread. I'm one such person; one such worm. Say that to my face. — Noble Dust
Being remembered is just the result of providing value to the world. The value lies in what you've done - remembrance is just a sign.No, I dispute the value of "being remembered". — Noble Dust
And yes, actually the last time I went to the bank, I had to do the bank teller's job for him. That's the kind of service I usually get. I usually see incapable people everywhere - people who don't give a fuck about their work, and just want a damn salary at the end of the month. If they themselves despise their work so much, why should anyone give a fuck about it?Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions). — Noble Dust
... the monster of Dark Pointlessness doesn't go away. I see him right across the room from me now. — mcdoodle
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(Who who, who who)
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(Woo woo)
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, mm yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo)
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, mm yeah
(Who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game.
As in having no motivation to wake-up for days? Sure.Have you experienced major depression? — Noble Dust
I don't care for what legacy I leave behind, I really see no point in this 'post death concern'. I also don't seek to be "part of something greater than myself", 'something great enough for me' would suffice. At last, I don't appreciate your extreme view on life and work.Nothing is necessary. But let's see - would you rather be remembered as an upstanding man who devoted himself to the betterment of mankind, who struggled and toiled each and every day for something greater than himself - or would you rather be remembered as the sloth who never rose up to the challenge, and whose sole achievement in life was casting a shadow over the earth? — Agustino
I think we're beyond mythological metaphors. Sure, humans may colonize space, exploit the stars, do great things and become godlike but that wouldn't make them any more godly. I'll definitely be myself.In the long run, one man will rise amongst the stars and live amongst the gods, and the other one will disappear through the gates of Hades. Who will you be? — Agustino
With indifference. If it's coming anyway, there's no point in our encounter.Death is coming anyway - how will you meet it? — Agustino
Spare me your motivational speech already... Death is just an event, not a combatant. Again, there's no use in fearing that which can not be prevented, therefore in the face of death, I'm fearless, it's only logical.Maybe you can hear the footsteps - even now, approaching. It's coming - and you can't escape. Will it find you snuggled up in a corner, begging for mercy - or will it find you fighting to your last breath, determined through sheer will not to give death the victory of crushing your spirit? — Agustino
I'm sorry but this is the no true scotsman fallacy.The truth is - they've never worked. Not real work. It's always been fake work — Agustino
Free from responsibility you mean. After all, the one whose sole purpose is to work is not concerned with the morality of it at all because work itself is absolute.There's never too much work. Work sets man free. — Agustino
A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? — Agustino
So... Who the heaven would waste their time to gift us? You're not being consistent.So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino
That's not a goal, goal implies ambition and ambition implies desire which you condemn.What's the goal? Doing your duty. — Agustino
Oh, c'mon, don't try to rationalize helping others away. In reality, people depend upon each other.In reality it's entirely up to the individual to seek help and develop those skills, it's on them to learn to deal with life (...) but it is ultimately up to the individual in crisis because nobody can do it for them — Sivad
Words. Let's see you do that.With indifference. If it's coming anyway, there's no point in our encounter. — Noblosh
Logical, but is it also real?! Logic alone does not move men. Logic alone does not dispel fear, nor does it give you the courage to live. Logic alone is vacuous and empty of any and all meaning - it is a sheer nothing. So no, I don't believe - if I am to take you at your word - that you are fearless because of logic. There are deeper and more powerful emotional reasons why you are fearless, if indeed you are.Death is just an event, not a combatant. Again, there's no use in fearing that which can not be prevented, therefore in the face of death, I'm fearless, it's only logical. — Noblosh
Yes, if you add assumptions that I made no mention of, sure.Free from responsibility you mean. After all, the one whose sole purpose is to work is not concerned with the morality of it at all because work itself is absolute. — Noblosh
Pff, give me a break with these childhood posts. I have over 4000 posts here (and who knows how many thousands at the previous forum) - I'm well aware of what's a fallacy and what's not.I'm sorry but this is the no true scotsman fallacy. — Noblosh
Right, and colonising space, exploiting stars, etc. isn't mythological >:OI think we're beyond mythological metaphors. Sure, humans may colonize space, exploit the stars, do great things and become godlike but that wouldn't make them any more godly. I'll definitely be myself. — Noblosh
Someone who loved you, even if you were a worm? There's no point hating a worm, but there is a point in loving a worm (or any other creature). There is an asymmetry there.So... Who the heaven would waste their time to gift us? You're not being consistent. — Noblosh
No, I don't condemn desire. I condemn desire for that which is evil. I don't understand why you've made the assumption I condemn desire.That's not a goal, goal implies ambition and ambition implies desire which you condemn. — Noblosh
Right now? No thanks!Words. Let's see you do that. — Agustino
But is death real? We use logic to determine what's real and fearlessness is the logical stance in the face of the uncertainty of death. You can doubt me and my logic all you want, it doesn't make me not right.Logical, but is it also real?! — Agustino
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just explaining you the implications of your statement and overall belief.Yes, if you add assumptions that I made no mention of, sure. — Agustino
Pooh-pooh, red herring and argument from authority.Pff, give me a break with these childhood posts. I have over 4000 posts here (and who knows how many thousands at the previous forum) - I'm well aware of what's a fallacy and what's not. — Agustino
Of course they are. they have become myths in our culture.Right, and colonising space, exploiting stars, etc. isn't mythological — Agustino
I see no point in either. A worm doesn't have the capacity to reciprocate.There's no point hating a worm, but there is a point in loving a worm (or any other creature). — Agustino
But that's arbirtary so I guess you condemn evil overall. But "Doing your duty." is still not a goal in itself.No, I don't condemn desire. I condemn desire for that which is evil. — Agustino
No, we don't use logic to determine what's real at all. Logic doesn't tell us ANYTHING about what's real and what's not real. Logic helps us relate different facts of existence. It doesn't tell you if there's a pink elephant in your back garden right now, or if unicorns exist somewhere in the Universe. All knowledge comes from the senses, and is merely processed with logic. Is death real? Yes, at least in an ordinary sense, I've witnessed it, and I know it's real.But is death real? We use logic to determine what's real and fearlessness is the logical stance in the face of the uncertainty of death. You can doubt me and my logic all you want, it doesn't make me not right. — Noblosh
Your goal is whatever you choose. If you choose to be a righteous man, then your goal becomes your duty.But "Doing your duty." is still not a goal in itself.
Duty implies obligation, not desire. — Noblosh
Implying one can choose to be born. — Noblosh
First there's nothing wrong with working as a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper if that's where you have to start. What's all this pursuit of status and pride because of a fucking college degree? — Agustino
The truth is that a degree means almost nothing these days - university isn't even that hard anymore. It's not like you graduated a university in Newton's day - no you graduated a University in the day and age when it is full of drunkards, druggies, and partying - everyone knows that. Everyone knows that finishing university is nothing big anymore - it's easy, if even these crazy party goers can finish it pfff - give me a break. And rightfully so - everyone is getting a degree. If you're doing what everyone is doing you're competing against everyone, what are the chances of winning that way? How are you any different from them, why should anyone pick you and not them? How do you stand out, what makes you unique? — Agustino
A degree is only helpful in one situation. If you want to get a job in a big organisation. Then a degree is needed, not because it shows you have the skills (cause it probably doesn't show that - a degree is skill faking quite often) but rather because the people in charge of employing you need a way to justify hiring you in case you do a shit job. Then they can tell the higher up managers/bosses, "oh well, he had a degree, his paper work was all okay, he was certainly the most qualified, I couldn't have done any better!" - save their own bottoms. That's when a degree is needed. Most of this world is built on forgery and fakery, not on intelligence and skill anyway - it's all smoke and mirrors, because people are damn lazy and don't put heart in their work - they just want social status and prestige, being seen well by others. What did Napoleon say - "a soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon". But how did Napoleon himself think? "A throne is only a bench covered with velvet" — Agustino
And getting a job isn't your only alternative. You could either work as self-employed (as a contractor or freelancer) or start your own business in some field you know about. The possibilities are all there, you just have to look for them and take them. You aren't entitled to a job in any field, regardless of your education. There is no entitlement in this world, you can either provide value to others, or you can't. — Agustino
Do some art. Take up astrology or tarot. It's a body of symbolism that goes on and on and reveals how suicide relates to other parts of life.
Otherwise just cry and wait it out. — Mongrel
Could you ask him from me how he feels about his life? Does he feel it is a worthwhile project to be stalking a philosopher so persistently, or does he have his own monster of Dark Pointlessness, that he is desperately keeping at bay by busying himself this way? — unenlightened
Rather do something (or try to do something) you can be proud of, and be an upstanding character. — Agustino
What's the point of enjoying yourself BC, you'll end up in the same grave, and it will be as if the enjoyment never existed. — Agustino
Why is a degree "supposed to land you a job"? Why do you think that?I'm saying is that I should not "start" at those sorts of jobs after getting a degree which is supposed to land me a job that isn't burger flipping or trash collecting. — Heister Eggcart
Not true. I work in web development, database management & recently online advertising - I have no degree in any of them. Completely self taught. I hold a degree in civil engineering - so yeah. People are misguidedly obsessed with degrees - that's why they get stuck at certain levels in society and never move beyond. A degree is a fucking piece of paper - means very little. I've probably seen more incapable people with degrees than without :Pone must still get an education in order to have any reasonable hope of getting a job in the field that they'd like to work in. — Heister Eggcart
Well, why not?Uh, no. — Heister Eggcart
*takes hat off* :) Yes, I respect you. You have your principles - not the same as mine, but at least you have the integrity of sticking to them - which is great!I think I did that. Though probably much closer to the grave than you are (at 70+) I haven't ceased trying to achieve, and be an upstanding character. — Bitter Crank
Heh - I don't take work to be drudgery. It's rewarding doing something useful for others - including making music for that matter. I haven't said that making music in the street is better or worse than assembling parts in a manufacturing plant on the conveyor belt for example.But what is better? joyful music in the summer or drudgery all the way to the grave? — Bitter Crank
Yes, but I actually disagree with that part. There are some things - the spiritual things - which are not meaningless. Doing great work is a spiritual undertaking of benefiting your fellow men - that's something to be proud of, that not even death can take away (the fact you've done good).The same thing can be said for everything that humans are or might be. "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless." Ecclesiastes. — Bitter Crank
But it does take a lot of will to keep crying and waiting you know. It's not like that's the easiest thing in the world either.Which means that, ya, crying and waiting is usually about all many can do. — Heister Eggcart
Why is a degree "supposed to land you a job"? Why do you think that? — Agustino
Not true. I work in web development, database management & recently online advertising - I have no degree in any of them. Completely self taught. I hold a degree in civil engineering - so yeah. People are misguidedly obsessed with degrees - that's why they get stuck at certain levels in society and never move beyond. A degree is a fucking piece of paper - means very little. I've probably seen more incapable people with degrees than without — Agustino
Well, why not? — Agustino
But it does take a lot of will to keep crying and waiting you know. It's not like that's the easiest thing in the world either. — Agustino
Who told you that? The corrupt educational system? Of course they did! That's the basic principle of selling anything, convincing your customer (read victim) that he needs your product or service - or otherwise he's fucked.That's the whole point of getting a degree................... — Heister Eggcart
Oh I am well acquainted with educational systems through out the world. They all say the same shit. I too believed that shit, until I had my degree, and I saw that it really was no big deal. I wasn't actually smarter or more qualified to do anything because of my degree. I really understood that despite getting my degree with honors, I was completely unqualified in truth for any real work. I really felt I didn't know much. And so I understood that, despite them praising you and shit - university is really useless.Pretty clear you've not been knee deep in the American educational system your whole life if you deny this. You're just wrong, bro. — Heister Eggcart
Oh, so you think I just magically landed in such a job, completely by accident right?Whoopty fucking do, Agu. Good luck getting a lot of jobs out there that require x, y, z certain tracks of education. Just because you've found yourself in a job without a degree that specifically pertains to that job, doesn't mean every and all degrees are pieces of paper that don't matter. — Heister Eggcart
>:O >:O >:O Unbelievable mate, you're complaining?! If I can start a business and make money in a fucking ex-communist country, full of corruption, bureaucracy and crooked laws which squash small businesses and help only big oligarchs, why can't you do it in the greatest capitalist country on Earth?! Just the mere fact you're American => that's instant credit worldwide.Because I need to pay the bills. You come on out to the rust belt here in the midwest and show me how eazy peazy it is to just start a business and make bank. — Heister Eggcart
Who told you that? The corrupt educational system? Of course they did! That's the basic principle of selling anything, convincing your customer (read victim) that he needs your product or service - or otherwise he's fucked. — Agustino
Oh I am well acquainted with educational systems through out the world. They all say the same shit. I too believed that shit, until I had my degree, and I saw that it really was no big deal. I wasn't actually smarter or more qualified to do anything because of my degree. I really understood that despite getting my degree with honors, I was completely unqualified in truth for any real work. I really felt I didn't know much. And so I understood that, despite them praising you and shit - university is really useless. — Agustino
Oh, so you think I just magically landed in such a job, completely by accident right? — Agustino
Unbelievable mate, you're complaining?! If I can start a business and make money in a fucking ex-communist country, full of corruption, bureaucracy and crooked laws which squash small businesses and help only big oligarchs, why can't you do it in the greatest capitalist country on Earth?! Just the mere fact you're American => that's instant credit worldwide. — Agustino
You could do something internet based - work anywhere in the world from this "rust belt" middle of nowhere place, so long as you have a computer and an internet connection. If you ran, for example, a web design agency - you could get your projects anywhere in the world. If you ran a digital marketing agency - same shit. I guess you could even open a writing business. And you're American - that alone puts you ahead of most everybody out there. What can the poor Indians running web development companies and trying to get international projects say then? Why can these people do it, even though they have all the disadvantages in the world? Language barriers, etc. — Agustino
If I came to that fallow field, I'd show you how eazy peazy it is to bring in 5K/month revenue in no time - just one month. 60% time getting projects, 40% doing them yourself or giving them off to others to do in parts for you. It's really not that difficult if you're willing to work, persevere, and handle the worst imaginable emotions and thoughts ("oh I'm failing, never gonna make it, this is stupid, I'm wasting my time, oh this is so hard - never gonna learn it, my client will be mad, etc. etc.). Make 100 phone calls every day - you'll find work, after 5 days of rejection. It really all has to do with never giving up, and resisting pain and stress. — Agustino
Change this negative attitude of yours from "it's impossible" to "how can I make this work?" — Agustino
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