I see. So, if I may ask, what's the German model? Are we talking about the bureaucracy or education here? Did you know America is #1 in tertiary education?

Agent Smith
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↪Athena
I see. So, if I may ask, what's the German model? Are we talking about the bureaucracy or education here? Did you know America is #1 in tertiary education? — Agent Smith

Of course I want people to ask questions and think about what I am saying. As for they US being #1 in tertiary education, that has nothing to do with democracy and not much to do with culture even though universities teach art and music, because what the elite learn is not important to the masses. In a democracy citizens must be well educated to be good voters and that is not happening.

“God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Cicero


“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

Cicero was a Roman Statesmen educated in Athens before Christianity. To have "right reasoning" is be knowledgeable of the philosophy that put us on the path to science. It is to know logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. By eighth grade a student better know virtues and principles and be prepared for life long learning and taking responsibility for the whole country. If this does not happen the democracy will self destruct.

The Prussian model for bureaucracy is a handful of people set policy and even if all the generals are killed things move forward as the policy dictates. The identify every job that needs to be done and define exactly how it will be done. This produces a mechanical society where individuals know their job and nothing more. They are to do exactly what they are told to do and nothing more. They are specialized and are glueless about what everyone else is doing.

But our forefathers were generalists and didn't have a concept of merit hiring and IQ testing and controlling all the details. Their focus was on a person's character. The character was everything. Reasonably intelligent people can learn anything but a person with a bad character is not likely to change and becomes like a rotten apple in the barrel. We learned an American mythology and we learned about our national heroes, because we are supposed to become like them. We are supposed to be virtuous and act on principles, and we are supposed to give service to our country. We do not have one book for teaching us this, like the Christians have the Bible, but the education is essential to our liberty and not fearing we could be shot down if we go to a mall for Christmas shopping.

In the old stupid days, people did a job based on their interest and talents and when someone died and had to be replaced, the new person would do the job differently and everyone would have to adjust. That could throw a large organization into total chaos! When Lincoln was killed the nation went into chaos. I know you are thinking we change presidents regularly and this thought needs to be followed by how everyone following policy means the train of events keeps moving and turning things around takes time.

It is the difference between these bureaucratic models that makes the change in education dramatically different. We are no longer generalizing and repairing everyone to be civic and industrial leaders so where are leaders coming from? Look at Trump and his family. The leaders are coming from those in power. Or the children of immigrants who were inspired by the American ideals much more so than those who take our democracy for granted and now expect the government to take care of them. Our focus on merit and is not giving us the leadership and supporters of that leadership that a democracy must have. With the present bureaucratic model, people just need to follow policy and it is best if that is all they think about. That is the opposite of the ideal citizen in our past.

Not in the least. In fact, you seem to have thrown a lot of ideas into a big pot, but, like America, they refused to melt into an alloy. — Vera Mont

I replied to you 4 days ago, but didn't quote you so I have copied and pasted my reply with the hope you will reply.

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. Democracy is a complex concept.

If we can not bring back my grandmother's way of teaching, our democracy is doomed. Thomas Jefferson and teachers understood that. Since you do not like my efforts to explain what the Age of Enlightenment has to do with education and democracy, I will quote Kucinich and Thomas Jefferson. Right now most voters seem to lack the principles that are important to democracy and that is a problem.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
Thomas Jefferson

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." Thomas Jefferson

"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both."
Thomas Jefferson

"To all of which is added a selection from the elementary schools of subjects of the most promising genius, whose parents are too poor to give them further education, to be carried at the public expense through the college and university. The object is to bring into action that mass of talents which lies buried in poverty in every country, for want of the means of development, and thus give activity to a mass of mind, which, in proportion to our population, shall be double or treble of what it is in most countries."
Thomas Jefferson

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

"To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens...this brings us to the point at which are to commence the higher branches of education . . . . To develop the reasoning faculties of our youth, enlarge their minds, cultivate their morals, and instill into them the precepts of virtue and order."
Thomas Jefferson

"The objects of this primary education . . . would be . . . to form the statesmen, legislators and judges, on whom public prosperity and individual happiness are so much to depend." Thomas Jefferson

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. — Athena

When it coalesces, yes. I don't think yours did.

Democracy is a complex concept. — Athena

Not really. Every citizen has a right to choose leaders and influence policy.

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson — Athena

Bullshit, Tom! You wanted to keep your slaves, including your own bastard children.
Hypocrisy we have always with us - past and present.

Also corruption, will to power and dominance, deception, avarice, aggression, resentment, jealousy, arrogance and rage, mental illness, religious delusion, addiction, bigotry and plain old everyday disagreement.
America has never closely resembled its own image of itself or the image it presents to the world. But then, neither does any other country. Some are just more opaque than others; some have been luckier; some are more demographically diverse. Some nations, like individual persons, have a self-image that's less distorted than others'.

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. — Athena


When it coalesces, yes. I don't think yours did.

Democracy is a complex concept. — Athena


Not really. Every citizen has a right to choose leaders and influence policy.

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson — Athena


Bullshit, Tom! You wanted to keep your slaves, including your own bastard children.
Hypocrisy we have always with us - past and present.

Also corruption, will to power and dominance, deception, avarice, aggression, resentment, jealousy, arrogance and rage, mental illness, religious delusion, addiction, bigotry and plain old everyday disagreement.
America has never closely resembled its own image of itself or the image it presents to the world. But then, neither does any other country. Some are just more opaque than others; some have been luckier; some are more demographically diverse. Some nations, like individual persons, have a self-image that's less distorted than others'. — Vera Mont

Ouch, democracy is far more than choosing leaders. It is also about being one of them. Democracy is o about producing leaders and those leaders must have willing followers or they can not lead. Democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people.

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe and education is essential to that task. Democracy is about the whole not separate and divided individuals. Of course this is not understood without literacy in Greek and Roman classics. The importance of morals to democracy is no longer understood and our amoral democracy seems on the verge of self destruction.

Thomas Jefferson wrote a law to free the slaves. https://www.monticello.org/slavery/paradox-of-liberty/thomas-jefferson-liberty-slavery/ The slavery issue was a complex one and judging people and what happened without understanding the complexity is not wisdom. Not everyone in Jefferson's day was well educated and therefore not everyone was influenced by the reasoning of the Enlightenment. Jefferson was influenced by the reasoning the enlightenment and I think it is important to hold a better understanding of his struggle and what the enlightenment has to do with opposition to slavery. We can not directly experience the enlightenment but we can learn about it in books.

democracy is far more than choosing leaders. It is also about being one of them. — Athena

As in influencing policy? Seriously, which farm-hand, miner or railway porter ever got within sniffing distance of active leadership?

Democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people. — Athena

As an idea, that sounds simple. In practice... not so much, and that's as true in ancient Athens as modern USA.

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe — Athena

Sounds nice. What does it mean in daily life?

The slavery issue was a complex one — Athena

What's complex about it? Kidnapping people is wrong. Torture is wrong. Rape is wrong. Human trafficking is wrong. Keeping people in captivity is wrong. Selling children is wrong. Forcing people to live wretched lives of labour in order to enrich other people is wrong.
But it makes money.... lots of lovely money to endow libraries and carry out extensive horticultural experiments and donate art collections and all those other fine civic contributions to the betterment of one's own kind for which grateful towns erect statues to dead rich guys.

Jefferson was influenced by the reasoning the enlightenment and I think it is important to hold a better understanding of his struggle and what the enlightenment has to do with opposition to slavery. — Athena

Nothing. No European nation in the 15th to 17th century had any qualms about subjugating peoples who were less well armed than they were.
It's not about Reason. It's about profit vs. conscience.
The Quakers saw this quite clearly... I wonder why all those sophisticated, educated, bewigged and worldly gentlemen did not.

As in influencing policy? Seriously, which farm-hand, miner or railway porter ever got within sniffing distance of active leadership? — Vera Mont

I took action that resulted in changing a city law and another period of action created a law that gives Grandparents rights totally changed the department of children's services policy. I was also an advocate for the homeless and a lot has happened since I got that ball rolling. That is very much what our democracy is about. Anyone one of us can write letters to the editor, write letters to a representative, and might even meet with them. We can take action on the city, county, and state levels. We can organize groups for different things and public support. We can even run for the presidency.

I concede, that's true. Some people are able to accomplish much with citizen action. And, quite evidently, anyone can be president.

And, as to the complexity of the slave issue....?

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe
— Athena

Sounds nice. What does it mean in daily life? — Vera Mont

First, it means maturing and being okay with knowing individuals do not know that much. It is being old enough and experienced enough to begin to understand the meaning of all the facts. Knowing facts is not equal to knowing their meaning. This also goes with learning to ask questions. Part of learning good reasoning is learning logic (math) but logic alone does not equal wisdom.

Education is essential to developing wisdom. That can be informal life lessons. Traveling and experiencing other cultures is very helpful. Reading with the goal of expanding one's conscience is important. Studying philosophy and debating it with others is very helpful.

Keeping in harmony with the universe means observing nature and how it works. It means knowing logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and good manners. In the past gods represented the forces of nature and today our sciences help us understand the universal laws.

And, as to the complexity of the slave issue....? — Vera Mont

Good question. In ancient times slavery did not have the same moral characteristics it has today. In the past, a slave was simply someone who lost a war. Slavery was an improvement over killing everyone. Also the conditions of slavery make an important difference. Unfortunately, light-skinned people did not see dark-skinned people as humans just like themselves, and this led to different rules of slavery than they had when they were enslaving their own kind.

The Bible was used to justify slavery and the Bible was used to argue against slavery. I am blown away by the fact that Christians in the West do not know the passages regarding slavery. I don't know if you want to get into this but in the US we might want to know more about the Bible and slavery. Darwinism also played a role in justifying slavery. I have a modern (less the 20 years old) book about education that says people with dark skin are biologically different from people with light skin. :gasp: The author of that book needs to learn more about genetics. I was shocked that today someone could publish such a racist book. When someone takes a position of authority, such as an author, that person needs to be held to a higher standard.

Bottom line the right or wrong of slavery is a matter of conscience. Ignorant people are blind to their errors in thinking. We have evolved our higher conscience thanks to having a constitution that was formed with thinking from the age of Enlightenment and the notion that individuals have rights. That was not exactly so in the time of Athens. Athens did not have the concept of individuality that we have today. Ancient Greeks were still more like tribes with a tribal identity, not an individual identity.

In Athens, people could argue just about anything in a court, but as they fought for their rights, it wasn't exactly their individual rights, but a matter of justice. Socrates argued what is justice and that is, how, do we as a people, survive and avoid the punishment of the gods? We still live with the remnants of this thinking. We may fear God will punish us if the people in the town are sinful, and tolerating homosexuality will bring on the wrath of God. We like to believe we survive hurricanes because God favors us and protected us. Whatever, I am trying to say, slavery is not wrong when you have a different set of beliefs than what those who believe in human rights hold as true and important. And some slaves had better lives than industrial workers in the north who were exploited and then dumbed when they were no longer useful. Today it is hard to comprehend such thinking.

Nothing. No European nation in the 15th to 17th century had any qualms about subjugating peoples who were less well armed than they were.
It's not about Reason. It's about profit vs. conscience.
The Quakers saw this quite clearly... I wonder why all those sophisticated, educated, bewigged and worldly gentlemen did not. — Vera Mont

The Age of Enlightenment is about very different reasoning. How good is your knowledge of history? The Age of Enlightenment follows Scholasticism. The change happened very slowly and you need this information for your arguments. If you can, imagine yourself as a serf with no education except maybe to learn a trade and of course learn some of what the Bible says about demons and angels and obeying God and then think through what is to follow. All you know about the world is what you have seen in your lifetime and it is unlikely you got more than ten miles from where you began life. You as a serf are not part of this change but it is beginning to happen.

Scholasticism was a medieval school of philosophy that employed a critical organic method of philosophical analysis predicated upon the Aristotelian 10 Categories. Christian scholasticism emerged within the monastic schools that translated scholastic Judeo—Islamic philosophies, and thereby "rediscovered" the collected works of Aristotle. Endeavoring to harmonize his metaphysics and its account of a prime mover with the Latin Catholic dogmatic trinitarian theology, these monastic schools became the basis of the earliest European medieval universities, and scholasticism dominated education in Europe from about 1100 to 1700.[1] The rise of scholasticism was closely associated with these schools that flourished in Italy, France, Portugal, Spain and England.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism — Wikipedia

Now OMG!:gasp: The whole world is turned upside down! No longer is the church the only authority! No longer is everything controlled by a God! And those Quakers you mentioned were led by men who read the classics and communicate with each other across national boundaries. This is not so for all Protestant denominations but thanks to the Muslim trade routes Europe has paper and Gutenberg's printing press makes Bibles and Greek and Roman classics accessible. Now the individual can read and determine for one's self what to believe. This is a completely different life than serfs had before the Age of Discovery opened the world.

Bacon, born in 1561 really heats up the debates with inductive reasoning and there is a backlash against the church, scholasticism, and Aristotle (deductive reasoning).

Bacon has been called the father of empiricism.[7] He argued for the possibility of scientific knowledge based only upon inductive reasoning and careful observation of events in nature. He believed that science could be achieved by the use of a sceptical and methodical approach whereby scientists aim to avoid misleading themselves. Although his most specific proposals about such a method, the Baconian method, did not have long-lasting influence, the general idea of the importance and possibility of a sceptical methodology makes Bacon one of the later founders of the scientific method. — Wikipedia

Individuality and individual self-will, and deductive and inductive reasoning, and empiricism, are a whole different world. You flee to the city where you may gain your freedom if you are there long enough, and this is not God's will but your own will. :up:

How good is your knowledge of history? — Athena

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America.

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America. — Vera Mont

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America. — Vera Mont

Where is the break in my explanation that is a problem? I did not mention how Plato and Aristotle and Greek dualism, in general, influenced the church. Should I start back there or is it okay to start with Scholasticism which was built on Plato and Aristotle? Do you think Europe getting access to the Chinese technology of making paper and printing affected the general consciousness of who has authority and what makes authority legitimate? I don't know how to respond because I don't know where you see a problem in the sequence of events.

I don't know how to respond because I don't know where you see a problem in the sequence of events. — Athena

You don't need to respond. I have a different perspective on the cause-effect chain, that's all.