This discussion was merged into Systemic racism in the US: Why is it happening and what can be done?

You shouldn't. You should probably take a break. Buy a new cat. Relax.

Ok, thanks.

'Black Lives Matter' ... now is a national terrorist organization — ernestm

Ah, I see, well at least the cherry picking, flawed reasoning, unjustified speculations and invented stories of persecution had a purpose. Maybe we can get back on topic now.

No, systemic racism refers directly to systems not people. For example, being a prison officer in a systemically racist justice system doesn't make you a racist.

Really like that one.

Politics... :vomit:

Biden needs independents. So, it doesn't matter how nuanced his position is, the GOP attack line will be "Crazy leftie Biden wants to defund the police!" And his campaign knows that, so not going to happen.

Have you any suggestions? — ernestm

I suggest you stop talking about how victimized you are because I don't believe your stories. As for the graph, if you go about reforming the police, it has to be done in the right way. You don't leave a vacuum there or criminals will take advantage of it. On the other hand, if the police do not have the trust of the communities they are supposed to protect and serve, there will be so little cooperation that, again, criminality will prosper. The idea of creating an acceptable police force is so they can be an effective police force.

I am an over privieleged white animal with a useless education from oxford who is too shallow to understand anything, thats all — ernestm

As interesting as your story of graduating from Oxford, then moving to a poor black neighbourhood and being victimized there before turning into a white animal is, it's not really relevant to the question of whether systemic racism exists (nor is it in any way verifiable), so, at the risk of being accused of totalitarianism, I would ask you to save your personal stories for your personal story thread in the lounge rather than post the same thing in every discussion regarding race.

All good ideas. Thanks. My only point was that for practical reasons most of us are going to be implicated in some way, whether it's our phones or whatever. But yes, there is a lack of awareness and/or will to take direct action of the sort you mention.

When I see people tearing down a statue of a notorious slaver and then refusing to buy any products from companies who benefitted from slavery, now or then, I'll be more content.

As it is, I see people turning up to tear the statue down in the very fucking clothing that's being made by actual slaves right now. Taking photos of it on phones whose minerals are mined by actual slaves, right now. Telling all their friends about it on social media platforms hosted by companies supporting actual slavery right now. — Isaac

Right, I get that. But let's temper our expectations a little. I presume you have a phone like everyone else. That doesn't mean we should sit at home and do nothing about anything, does it?

Systemic racism isn't prohibited. That's a large part of the problem. E.g.

Blockbusting and contract buying were just two of several discriminatory wealth-stripping practices that lawmakers permitted in the U.S. housing system — Baden

You're allowed to care about more than one thing you know. For example, if there were a statue of Nazi up in a neighbourhood with a lot of Jews in it and it got pulled down, why on earth would we criticize that?

It's against the law for systemic racism to exist — Judaka

OK, you don't understand what it is either. Read up on it. Systemic racism can and does occur within the boundaries of law.

You came into a discussion you haven't fully read to pick out one (justified) rhetorical point amongst all the other substantive ones as a means to mount a misguided attack on those who of us who, in this thread, are arguing: Systemic racism exists. Because that is the reason the thread was set up:

I've started this thread for the sole reason of allowing those who want to claim it doesn't their say — Baden

So, maybe you didn't read the OP either. Anyhow, seeing as you've said you agree with my description of those who think there's no systemic racism in the US then we're actually expressing the same substantive point. If you want something to argue with, feel free to address this:

Systemic racism obtains when a system(s) function (regardless of explicit rules) to favour certain racial groups over others. It doesn't require overt individual racists (though it may protect and even reward them) nor does it necessarily require any conscious acts of racism at all (and obversely you could have conscious acts of racism in a system where no systemic racism exists, only rather than being performative of the system, they would be antithetical to it). Systems are culturally contextual, they're embedded in cultures and how they function depends on their relationship to the culture they're in. So, often it's what the system allows rather than what the system demands that's important. E.g. if you've got a justice or policing system embedded in a culture that's only recently emerged from the acceptance of explicitly institutionalised racism, you need extremely strong safeguards to avoid the continuance of implicit racism in whatever ostensibly non-racist institutions are substituted. Not having those safeguards in place means the explicit racism of before doesn't just disappear but finds footholds in the new institutions and festers there looking for opportunities to express itself.

Systemic racism occurs in all areas of social life, policing, housing, education etc. And again, it's not primarily about explicitly racist acts or explicitly racist policies or legislation but how things work in practice to disadvantage communities of color. Here's an example relating to housing.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/reports/2019/08/07/472617/systemic-inequality-displacement-exclusion-segregation/

"For much of the 20th century households of color were systematically excluded from federal homeownership programs, and government officials largely stood by as predatory lenders stripped them of wealth and stability.

In the decades preceding the Fair Housing Act, government policies led many white Americans to believe that residents of color were a threat to local property values. For example, real estate professionals across the country who sought to maximize profits by leveraging this fear convinced white homeowners that Black families were moving in nearby and offered to buy their homes at a discount. These “blockbusters” would then sell the properties to Black families—who had limited access to FHA loans or GI Bill benefits—at marked-up prices and interest rates. Moreover, these homes were often purchased on contracts, rather than traditional mortgages, allowing real estate professionals to evict Black families if they missed even one payment and then repeat the process with other Black families.57 During this period, in Chicago alone, more than 8 in 10 Black homes were purchased on contract rather than a standard mortgage, resulting in cumulative losses of up to $4 billion. Blockbusting and contract buying were just two of several discriminatory wealth-stripping practices that lawmakers permitted in the U.S. housing system."

Most likely, as with you, objections to the existence of systemic racism turn on a misunderstanding of what it is. As if it's just the type of claim that police are racist or police departments have racist policies. That's really not it. It's usually far subtler than that and, for being so, all the more pernicious.
— Baden

Anyway, I'm sorry I made your naughty list, Santa. If I'm good for the rest of the year, I hope you'll reward me by reading the stuff I wrote. Thanks.

I did read some of the comments, — Judaka

It's a 5 page thread. Go read it all before clumsily inserting out-of-context criticisms.

We're talking about "systemic racism" being denied. The very first post:

... is there "systematic racism," absolutely not. — Sam26

So, now we've advanced to the point where what actually happened in the thread is being misrepresented and denied. Not exactly progress, is it?

It takes and should take time. I don't know exactly how they'll do it but it did work in Northern Ireland and the situation is analagous in many, if not all, ways.

But if people are saying that there's not a shred of systemic racism in the US then I'd suggest your description of them is accurate. — Judaka

If you'd read the thread, you'd see that was the case from the beginning. Have you read the thread? It's only 4 pages long...

. It just seems to me that the term is a bit vague to some people and it's hard to really confirm or deny it — Judaka

Which was why it was explained many times over to the point where it's impossible to deny it. Back to point one. My description is accurate. They don't want to hear. Which is why some are getting frustrated here.

You served the rhetoric, I returned it. Committing to disband an entire police force is a big step. It is exactly what was called for and eventually done nationwide in Northern Ireland where the RUC was replaced by the PSNI. And it worked. Maybe you're more cynical than me about these politicians' intentions. That's fine. But in principle, it's the type of thing that needs to be done. And what Bezos has to do with it is beyond me.

It's a rhetorical point aimed at those who consistently wish to deny historical and contemporary reality no matter how much it's explained to them. The equivalent of putting their hands over their ears and shouting whenever uncomfortable facts are made clear. What systemic racism actually is has been explained in detail elsewhere in the discussion and these explanations have largely been ignored or misunderstood. I guess because it's existence is incontrovertible and some here just can't handle that.

Really? You think all this involves is changing the uniform colour? That's rather silly.

Systemic racism in the US: Why is it happening and what can be done?

This:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501583-majority-of-minneapolis-city-council-vows-to-disband-police-department

:sparkle:

Probably the only way some folks here will understand what systemic racism is is if we make their group slaves for 400 years then when we have everything and they have fuck all, tell them they're free, offer them jobs in Target, with the other major option being prison, and if they complain, tell them the system is stacked in their favour. (And maybe we'll throw in 100 years of apartheid just for fun).

This is the way to do it.

As I already have stated, we have a system that favors blacks, — Harry Hindu

Better question for this thread is, is questioning the existence of systemic racism in the US, an act of racism itself? — Benkei

Not only questioning it but pretending it's the opposite of what it is in some cases, apparently. Anyway, I'm out. I'll leave someone else to deal with the right wing tinfoil hat brigade.

Yeah, that's a decent one. The way I tend to think of it is along these lines too:

In short, systematic is used to describe the way a process is done, while systemic is used to describe something inside a system — tim wood

Another way to put that would be doing anything predictably in response to a stimulus or following a method can be called 'systematic' and this can easily be applied to individuals, but 'systemic' (in any social context) refers to the characteristic behaviour of organizations and institutions. Anyhow, thanks, I hope everyone gets this now.

(E.g. an example of systematic racism could be someone crossing the street every time they saw a black person, in which case the 'systematic' part becomes rather superfluous. Just call it racism. 'Systemic racism' is a phrase worth hanging onto though, particularly as what it describes tends to be much more subtle. And too subtle for some apparently...)

Why are the other cops required to 'actively resist' the disproportionate effect of their institution's role on minorities in order to avoid charges of complicity? It seems an odd 'guilty by association' response. — Isaac

That wasn't really where I was going with that. In fact, the point I was making was more like depending on how you frame it, the question "where are the good cops?", is in a sense unfair. Anyhow, working now, but I'll get back with more on this later.

Well, what street said. There is systemic classism and systemic racism and they work together to propagate poverty. The more information we have about each and how about each works, the better we can deal with them. It's not about pointing the finger at some specific capitalist or racist pulling a lever somewhere (though that does happen), it's about admitting that society is not what we would want it to be re race and poverty and trying to do something about it. That should not be a threat to anyone with good intentions.

Reading that, I think we might disagree about the extent of the specific role racism plays in the problems facing black communities, but not the existence of systemic racism (and you gave a good example of it in your last paragraph). As for black cops vs white cops, I don't know, but any functionary of a systemically racist system playing their part as performative of that system has a role in propagating the racism of that system. That doesn't make them racist, just "doing their job". That's part of what's pernicious about systems. They compromise you.

This also relates to @StreetlightX's question "where are the good cops?". A cop qua functioning node in a systemically racist system can't be good by definition. Only cops actively resisting the system could be. But, in a sense, a resister is not really a cop anymore. Not from the perspective of the system at least. So, it's maybe not a fair question without qualification. There are "good cops" in the sense of good people who become cops and whose intent is benign, or even benevolent, but insofar as they follow the written and unwritten rules of cop culture (over which they don't have individual control) there's a sense in which they can't be good. Back to the problem being primarily systemic than being about "good" vs "bad" cops.

+Pretending that a social phenomenon that's been studied, documented and written about for decades doesn't exist is about as plausible as claiming the moon landings never happened.

Here are just a couple of the thousands of academic papers written on the subject. We can argue about how prevalent systemic racism is but the idea it just isn't there is a conspiracy theory. Anyone who denies that, please do present your peer reviewed academic papers supporting your position (hint: there are none).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953613005121

https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/unilllr2004&section=46

https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/cpilj8&section=12

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016059761103500304

As for the fact that these structures have the same affect on blacks but in greater numbers - or rather in disproportionate numbers - that's just what systemic racism is. — StreetlightX

Bingo.

If systematic racism were real, — Harry Hindu

You also need to look up the difference between 'systemic' and 'systematic'. They're not the same thing. As I mentioned before, the objections to the idea that systemic racism exists tend to be based on misunderstandings about what's being talked about. But the term has been explained in the thread and explanations are not exactly difficult to find online, so there's no excuse for not knowing what it means.

I'm sorry we're not racist enough for you. Try the Breitbart comment section maybe?

This discussion was merged into Systemic racism in the US: Why is it happening and what can be done?

Thanks for the explanation.

Yes, nothing racial about this I know, but seeing as police brutality is one of the specified topics of the OP... Anyway, the context is the guy is old and not a threat. Shoving him to the ground is dangerous and unnecessary. So, yes, if the police say "move" then generally speaking you should move, but that doesn't justify any response to you not doing that. Also, the cop walking on and leaving the guy on the ground unconscious and bleeding is mind-boggling. I mean if you unintentionally use excessive force at least try to help your victim.

American police are mean as shit. — Hanover

Which is why many people hate them. In most countries I've been to it's not actually the case. And it shouldn't be. Considering most protesters are otherwise generally law-abiding, stepping all over them is stupid and self-defeating. Hearts and minds and all that. Keep the gung-ho shit for hardened criminals.

Much more good stuff going on between police and protesters, all very welcome, as are @Wolfman's comments, which give us an insight into things from the police's perspective.

Stuff like this though:



Needs to stop now. Stop assaulting peaceful protesters. How hard is that? How hard is to train police to restrict themselves to a reasonable level of force appropriate to the situation?

EDIT: Just looked back and saw @StreetlightX already referenced this.