Nope. We can't talk about the music; then you share your headphones with me, and show it to me. Our world now includes the tune. We can talk about the syncopation, the melody, and so on. Or, that bit after she stops singing, if you want something simpler. — Banno

Why is it so controversial to admit that language offers only a limited glimpse into one's phenomenal state? Language is a camera of limited resolution and while you can snap photos of whatever you'd like, it's inherently limited. It will never fully reflect the original. You say just keep moving the camera around, get more shots, different angles. I say it'll never happen.

I don't know if you can have a phenomenal state of a ball. Is the ball your phenomenal state? What's the difference between the ball and your phenomenal state? — creativesoul

To deny the distinction is idealism. Is that where you are on this?

What is irrelevant to the discussion isn't the phenomena, but the noumena. The ball is irrelevant, not the experience of it.

I don't understand your confusion. Can I not have a phenomenal state of a round ball.

The attraction of talking about phenomena seems to be that it somehow allows us to get inside the head - inside the other person's beetle-containing box. It doesn't. — Banno

No, the attraction is that it is the cause of our speaking to one another in the first place and it forms the basis all of our communication.

No it's not. You have this truly odd identity theory that equates the phenomenal state to its linguistic description, as if telling you the ball is round is somehow equated to my phenomenal state of the round ball. Telling you I saw an awe inspiring sunset hardly places you in awe.

Is there no irony in your inability to convey your position to me despite the thousands of words expended?

The ineffable.

But it never ends.

If they are ineffable personal experiences, then they cannot be discussed - that's what ineffable" means. — Banno

The ineffability need not be absolute. The police sketch artist hears the words and draws the picture, but never gets it exactly right. The source of the information lies in the witness' mind, the language roughly estimates and transmits it, and the recipient loses something in translation. Why is the sketch never exact?

If you make a perfume (as you're known to do) and tell me it smells of roses, and I don't think it does, I'll tell you that, but don't expect me to tell you why. I just don't have any real language for smells. It's ineffable, but I know your perfume isn't roses.

Oh no, did someone strike a nerve?

Listen here you defender of man, why would I cuddle up to one who has given me no indication that he wants me to crawl all over him like a kitten? — TimeLine

A guy doesn't tell you that because he suspects you already know it. That's what all guys want.

I really like you.
I enjoy your company.
I want to get to know you better.
I really admire you.
You are so fucking awesome. — TimeLine

Couldn't have said it better myself (awww).

To be fair, you're not respecting vulnerability limitations. Telling people you care about them ought to be easy, but it's not, male or female. Do you really say that if you're not sure where the guy stands or do you wait (and wait and wait) for him to say it first? Methinks you're just as much a scaredy cat as he is, little miss pretends to be balls to the wall, caution to the wind, express my love like no other.

You don't stalk someone and say nothing, you don't send affectionate messages to her pretending to be someone else, or love songs and short stories and completely freak her out thinking is this guy a psychopath or does he like me?, — TimeLine

That's precisely what I would do if playa didn't have no game, but playa got mad game see. What went down see is that he liked you, but didn't know what to say, so his dumber ass friend fed him some line thinking he was helpin a brother out, but you realized it was concocted bullshit, and instead of thinking "aww, retard likes me, bless his awkward heart," you went out and got a restraining order on the bitch. I am soo skreet, right?

this guy a psychopath or does he like me?, — TimeLine

B. Choice B. He likes you. He's not a sociopath. He's a retard. Give the retard some love. Damn girl.

And why, for heavens sake, is it that every time I promise to commit myself to study over the weekend, the weather is glorious? Do you have an answer to that, Mr. 'I know everything'? — TimeLine

Prolly God hates you.

Your essay is pretty good, but certainly needs to be improved. — TimeLine

My emotional retardation takes this as rejection, you learner of nothing. I'd be sad, but I forgot what we were talking about.

Here's your quandary: all guys are emotionally retarded. You just have to take one in and give him a good home and pet his head. It's just mean as shit to leave them in the rain wondering what to do.

One more for you in all its powerful absurdity. "Love is like a cloud that holds a lot of rain." It's gotta be true. The big haired man said so.

So amazing.

Classic Southern rock. God bless it.

The last word:

So speaketh the cookie.

It also varies from itself. If it is so unique that you cannot speak of it, then it is only because you've yet to find the words for doing so. — creativesoul

It can be done, but it just never has been done? I could start describing my phenomenal state now, looking out the window, hearing the rain, smelling the smells, thinking various thoughts, have various stresses, etc. and after thousands and thousands of pages, I'd still have left something out and you would not experience my experience. You'd just sort of know about it.

Look to others, for despite the fact that our states vary from each other and themselves, we all have the same ones. — creativesoul

How do you know what their beetle looks like?

The more refined one's ability to talk about their own thought and belief, the more refined one's thought and belief become... It's a funny thing about the affect/effects of language on thought and belief. — creativesoul

Perhaps. Sometimes our statements of our beliefs are wrong. But I do agree that the more we think about something, the more we understand it. That's how thought works, but I'm not committed to the idea that all thought must be performed by the tool of language.

It doesn't follow from the fact that we do not speak aloud all our thoughts that we could not. — creativesoul

Such is the theory that given an infinite amount of time we could precisely describe a single thought. Like I said, maybe, but I doubt it.

I've decided to write an essay on this issue. Enjoy.

Gender Specific Relationship Retardation
By: Hanover von Hanoverstein of Hanoverville (aka "Tater")

A vignette: John dates Sally. John likes Sally. Sally likes John. John calls Sally regularly, but not every day. Sally enjoys John's company. John tells Sally he likes her, but he doesn't say it all the time. John makes thoughtful gestures toward Sally, but not always. John likes to get physically close to Sally, but Sally doesn't always want to. Sally wants to talk deeply to John, but John doesn't always want to.

John and Sally go on a date on Saturday. John and Sally start to get physical, but Sally slows things down. John calls Sally on Monday (not Sunday) and asks to see her on Wednesday. Sally says she's not sure about Wednesday. John suggests Thursday. Sally says she still isn't sure. John says okay, and the conversation ends. When they do speak about their problems, John clearly explains why there are no problems, only Sally finds him unpersuasive and evasive.

Emotionally intuitive Sally realizes that John isn't prioritizing her, isn't considering her feelings, is most interesting in being physical, isn't trying to get to know her, and will barely talk to her. Emotionally intuitive Sally even realizes that emotionally retarded John is emotionally retarded so she tries to give him some leeway, but he's so retarded she's starting to think there's no hope. In fact, she's doubly frustrated by his attempt to persuade her that her intuitions are wrong, or worse yet, to dodge the emotional issues altogether.

Rational John determines that Sally isn't interested in him. His data points are: (1) she won't physically get close, (2) she tells him she doesn't want to go out with him on Wednesday or Thursday, and (3) she constantly is calling him down on the carpet with her talks. To the extent he's holding up his end of the bargain, he has the following data points: (1) he does call her often, (2) he expresses his admiration for her from time to time, (3) he does make the appropriate gestures sometimes, and (4) he does talk to her, just not insistently. Rational John realizes that rationally retarded Sally is rationally retarded so he tries to give her some leeway, but she's so rationally retarded, he's starting to think there's no hope. In fact, he's doubly frustrated by her refusal to accept his data points as evidence of the rightfulness of his position when they speak.

And the retardation comes to full blossom. Sally's outreach to bring John closer is interpreted as rejection and pushing away. John's outreach to bring Sally closer is interpreted as rejection and pushing away. John sees Sally as a confusing, emotional creature unable to grasp his arguments, and he likely describes her as crazy. Sally sees John as uncaring and stubborn and likely describes him as childish and not fully human.

John likes Sally. Sally likes John. Too bad they couldn't work that out.

The solution? Sally just needs to listen to the voice of reason. God damn, John's doing everything he can, but nothing is ever good enough. He doesn't need that bullshit. Can't Sally just hold his hand and tell him he's a great guy and stop making this so complicated?

Autobiographical, sure, but it's currently playing in theaters across the country.

The part I enjoyed most during heartbreak was finally being able to truly understand what 90% of the songs on the radio really meant. So, enjoy this time listening to the radio with your super powers of understanding.

https://youtu.be/e9BLw4W5KU8

There's so much here that is muddled, much of the muddle caused by equating different experiences with different phenomenal states, while trying to maintain that phenomenal states are both open for discussion and yet ineffable. — Banno

No muddle, just your failure to analyze the phenomenal state, which is all part of the artificial limitation you place on analysis of the internal state. Your position, as far as I can tell, wishes to deny any relevance to the internal state, and so you hardly wish to embark on discussing it.

Not being so limited, I will tell you what the phenomenal state is. It is the full experience of what I am experiencing. I find incoherent the idea that there is a direct stream of data entering my conscious, unaffected by the mechanisms of my mind, which include anything from visual distortions, personal biases, mood, and perhaps even affected by what I ate for breakfast. That being the case, I have every reason to believe that my internal state varies from yours. I also fully understand that language is a very limited way of expressing oneself and what goes on in one's mind. I know this because I compare the words I speak to what I'm actually thinking and I realize that what I say is a limited sketch of my full thoughts.

If they are ineffable, how could you know this? — Banno

He said word "can," not must. He says nothing of knowing the beetle.

But, what is the evidence that my beetle is different than yours? We've already established that the Vietnam vet's experience of the movie is different from the child's.

I don't think I loved him either. I was more hurt by the confusion he wrought. All I wanted to know was what he wanted (sex, friendship, love, enemies?) and there was a part of me that wanted to give him a shot and another part of me that wanted him to just fuck off. I don't like playing hide and seek, I am very fond of honesty and confidence and it caused me to think I needed to play back, which just made a mess of everything and he never found out the real person that I am because of it. I then realised that this game-playing confirmed we are very different people and it would not have worked out because I want someone mature, someone who does not follow the herd but his heart, who would give up holding onto all that and experience life and he is nothing like that, on the contrary he is almost pathological in his need for approval from others. As friends, though, I still feel like we could have been awesome. You live and learn.

Anyway, nice chat. We should do lunch sometime. — TimeLine

The doctor is back in:

Why is it that you have no difficulty describing his failures to us, but not to him, the only person who actually needed to hear it, and could you have described his failures to him in a caring and supportive way that built him up, not one that justified your annoyance and frustration?

When we meet for lunch, bring me my nickel.

Is it shiny?

A shiny nickel.

Not sure where to go now... — Lone Wolf

Match.com ? A joke...

I can squeeze you in.

You loved him, he cared only for himself, but you interpret yourself as selfish.

Well it does have some standards.

I thought I loved someone and he treated me rather callously, playing so many games that I was nauseous from the dizziness. It still can reduce me to tears — TimeLine

Maybe you did love him, but he didn't love you.

Awww. I feel your pain. Defending him. It's ok you still love him. All part of the miserable process.

Work sucks. Start a union and go on strike, make signs, walk in circles, and yell at your replacements. Always go down in flames.

Yeah, if you didn't love him, you wouldn't be heartbroken.

That lying sociopath son of a bitch.

No one fucks with Lone Wolf and just walks away like lalala nothing happened.

Am I right?

It's not childish at all.

That means you're boring. I know this is a hard way to find out, but now you know. Your wing needs zing.

This place is a damn love in lately.

Tell us your woes. It feels better to talk about it. It really does. I'll pour the wine, the shot, the beer, you name it.

Trivia night at the local bar has been ruined as well. If not for the all you can eat hot wings, why go on?

Yes, but there will be a resurrection. You'll rise again.

A new word I just coined. Googliniscience - the ability to access the all knowing power of the internet through well crafted searches that will enable you to both prove and disprove any point you wish. As in the sentence, "Joe's googliniscience protected him from the most outlandish claims, where he was able to cite dozens of sources showing that the earth was both flat and round and even non-existence at all."

Ummm... the Falklands war is basically a war where both sides stick to the International conventions in war and didn't engage in what are called war crimes. Civilians weren't targeted.

So that's one for the history books. — ssu

Or not.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109429/A-dirty-war-British-soldiers-shot-dead-enemy-troops-waving-white-flag-Argentinian-prisoners-bayoneted-cold-blood-An-ex-Para-tells-horrors-Falklands.html

Every fact is both provable and disprovable by a well phrased Google search. See, https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/169761