I think most people are against rape, murder, child abuse etc — Janus

I have to say, I'm not so sure. Billions in communities outside the West see, for instance. Honour killings as a requirement, morally. All but the victim will agree. Just an example, but its these things I'm speaking out (while trying not to target religious thinking). This may ultimately not be all that important, though.

all others to be of their kind―humankind unbounded by religious bigotry and cultural antipathies — Janus

I agree. But even within communities who see each other as 'kin', horrifically violent actions take place with support of the law, and one's family, all the time. The femicides in China/Japan, the constant and unbearable mutilation, rape and murder of women in both Muslim and Hindu societies, the belief among certain sects of immigrants that these notions should be important to the West among other things tell me we could probably count more people OK with rape and murder than not, on a principle level. We would, obviously, disagree with them - but there are billions, as I understand. The death penalty for apostacy or atheism in seven countries seems to speak to this also... I do hope I am just a little over-alert to this, but I fear I am actually under playing it. We in the West tend to assume people share our moral outlooks, when that's probably one of the biggest areas of global disagreement and disharmony. We cannot co-exist with countries that deny women education, for instance, and still be 'moral' by our own lights.

I don't deny that there are sociopaths, those lacking in normal human empathy, who don't have a problem with violent crimes. — Janus

Unfortunately, I think a quote from Sam Harris bears repeating: There are good, and there are bad people. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. But to get a good person to do bad things, you need religion. Ah fuck, now I'm just bashing religion. Perhaps I shouldn't be so reticent. It is poison.

which cannot be empirically determined — Janus

We see it among that which can be, though. I'm unsure its particularly reasonable to presume everyone accepts "empirical evidence" as actual evidence. Those of us who understand what you're saying will do, but plenty (perhaps most) do not. They are skeptical of 'evidence' unless it agrees with their feelings. You and I would want to jettison this, and assess it against the claim, rather htan our feelings. I suggest this is far more common, and far more obvious than you are allowing here.

Yes,...but are symbols of numbers) — Janus

Nothing to quibble with here. I guess I just don't understand why the response I get isn't satisfactory. I don't know that anyone claims numbers exist outside examples of number. Or that colours exist outside examples of color (though, perhaps Banno would).

I don't see how. That meaning lives within your head - this is the basis for misunderstanding, right? You react badly to something I thought was clear, and we have an impasse. There are two reasons I can reject the thesis, fairly readily:

People get offended where no offense was intended, or reasonably interpretable from the utterance; and
Intentions to cause offense routinely fail.

This shows a relationship between two things, which must, on both ends, co-operate, for someone to be reasonably offended. But it also shows that offense is not in the utterances.

I'd be interested if it isn't too theoretical. — Tom Storm

Ok, here you go. Nothing amazing but explains in more detail why I think the things I do, hereabouts mentioned.

On your further comments, I think you're describing (and it sounds like you see this too) what people do in the face of certain speech/activity. This doesn't tell me about what those aspects of speech are, or how they operate. Again, a failure to offend seems to put paid to the idea that you can offer one offense in an utterance. You can goad someone into becoming offended, sure, and as noted, we should avoid that. But this doesn't tell me anything about the utterance, I don't think. If you substitute offense for humour, it should be pretty clear that only internal expectations can create the result of an utterance.

This is the origin of the meme of life as a kind of cosmic fluke. — Wayfarer

I don't see that this is a problem. If you weren't suggesting so, sorry. It seems so..

I admit, I do not know what you are asking, really. But on its face, no. It isn't. It can't be.

Well, it's not though. It is not possible for my actions to be offense, or to be offended. The offense exists solely, and inarguably, in your reaction. This is why transitive offense is a nonsense too, but that's another issue. I don't mean to be rude here - but this is an empirical matter. I cannot give offense. It is not open to me. I cannot package your emotions and send them over to you. Not possible.

Your point is taken, that we should be mindful how we interact with people, and I agree. But being impolite is not causing offense. it is being impolite. Being offended is its own genus and arena of thought, to my mind. I recently wrote a short essay on this topic with focus on slurs if you have any interest. It is incomplete as I was too ambitious - but i still got a 92 lol

but the idea that something is real if it's genuine and not real if it's a fake is robust — J

I think that's true, but uses of genuine and fake are various. I know you've taken my point, I just want to be clear that these concepts are not as cut-and-dried as they may seem to all.

I see you continue to refuse to answer the simple question posed. OK then. That is a shame.

You made the claim. Stop answering with questions, and answer the one posed to you. Nothing in your responses gives me any reason to think you have an answer to this.

What have i suffered? This requires an actual answer, not continuous prevarication. My claim is it is nothing. I cannot prove a negative. You must convince me that you receiving information out of my personal email account results, prima facie, in my suffering.

A: You receive some clandestine information about me.
B: Nothing else has happened, as I gave this scenario and I am telling you this.
C: Where's the suffering ??

You do not have an answer it seems. Have a go! Your answer is restricted to responding to this scenario. If you move beyond this scenario, you are not answering the question/challenge.

You state, without qualification that C should be my suffering. Where is it?

You made a claim. I've challenged it. You are not answering hte challenge. So be it.

Further, I didn't say that. You claimed it about me. I asked a specific question you are refusing to answer.

In the scenario I gave you, what suffering have I endured?

The actual problem is in figuring out which persistent self(s) exist. — Mijin

If at all... It may be that (as with further fact types) there is no perdurance occurring in the machines output.

You could answer the question, please good sir, instead of prevaricating.

In the scenario i just gave you, what have i suffered, without something more? It's nothing, isn't it?

I cleverly avoided this fate by never growing up. — praxis

:lol: Nice. All too telling (not about you, to be clear)..

Offense is not given. So yes, it does as that does not obtain.

At every moment, you experience things: sensations from the world, and sensations from yourself. These are facts of experience. — hypericin

You outlined facts about the teletransporter and said they obtained in those terms. If that wasn't the claim, i suggest that was incredibly unclear. But fair enough. I don't argue with the above.

one still experiences, still maintains a self concept, — hypericin

I do not think this is correct, and explains some of what I see as dead-ends in your discussion.
The facts are that you(a) walk into the machine, and someone(b) walks about. Someone experiences. The point is to figure whether you think "still" even applies to (b). Or whether the same "one" applies to (a) and (b).
Within the way the experiment is written, that someone does have the same autobiographical sense as the one who walked into the machine - that's already a given, and not something we are supposed to ascertain. The point is is sort out whether that matters. Parfit says yes. I say no for the same reasons you have outlined: MY mind stops having those experiences, even if a mind doesn't. The fact that someone thinks they are me doesn't mean they are. I gave a possible example of why that could be the case (the atom identity issue) which was unsatisfactory. I agree, it was just to point out that you can solve the issue by saying that person cannot be you for physical reasons, and ignore the mind part. But again, I also find that unsatisfactory.

The point of all this is to say that I think you've slightly misunderstood the thought experiment becuase you're not addressing certain aspects which are written in. Maybe the branch-line case is a better one for your purposes.. seems so to me.

I have just realised I've addressed much of this to Mijin, recalling their posts in kind with yours. Sorry about that - points remain, but you can ignore references to things "you" have said before.

The comic: The answer the Devil gives is not satisfactory and does not answer my potential response, despite my not being satisfied with it myself. Unless we have reason to think that each time we sleep, we are disassembled and reassembled, its a totally misconceived response, changing nothing about the intuitions involved.
The man is utterly perplexingly stupid to me, and is making wild moral miscalculations. More importantly (and demonstrably) the comic seems to ignore the biggest issue people have: "he" is not a given on the other side of the machine. There is no guaranteed "me". There is just someone, and our job in the thought is to decide what we think of that. Not whether we disagree with it. If the psychological relation is enough, that's fine. If it's not, we have work to do. I think this is fundamentally being misunderstood by a lot of people. Parfit just gives an answer I don't like, but runs the same avenues to get there as I have.

Invasion of privacy in itself causes suffering under Western jurisprudence and I would also argue just as a fact regardless of what our legal system says about it.

Which is why invasion of privacy is a crime. Of course, the suffering is once the victim knows about it. — boethius

I've asked what suffering. You've not answered.

You receive information from my personal email account (clandestine, we assume). What have I suffered ? I shall short-cut this.

I haven't. Something more is required. Most Western Law even requires harm or damage to be established before a conviction or punishment will be metered out.

But it's not really defesnible since 'emprical' refers to the shared world of phenomena. — Janus

This is where I think the problem lies. They will say "I have direct knowledge of this, as do other Christians" (or whatever sect). You and I would largely reject this, but we also do not know their phenomenal experiences. Maybe they have... (this is unserious, but hopefully illustrates).

Admittedly some of the "agreement" may be lip service only. — Janus

Yeah. Even then, I think there are some good reasons to reject this position (meaning, it seems more people are serious about it). There are, on many reliable accounts, billions who do not find rape, murder, child abuse etc.. objectionable, when posited by a religious doctrine (or, rather, required by it). I suggest this is probably more prevalent than most in the West want to accept (and here we also need take into account the types within the West who perhaps feel these ways. We have enough abusers around for whom the Law is not a deterrent it seems).

but if we allow that philosophers in general are among the smartest people — Janus

If this is just a claim to an average, I think it's empirically true. I do not think your next claim follows. Among the 'smartest' people, you're likely to get more disagreement as each can bring more nuance and see different things in the same sets of data (or, different relations). I don't think this has much to do with feeling, though I am not suggesting we can avoid feelings when deciding on theories, for instance. But assessing theories is the job of the minds which can move beyond feelings into "whether or not the feelings are reasonable" type of assessments. Plenty of people appear to be incapable of this. But we may simply have different expectations here. I'm unsure there's an answer.

So when asked as to where the numbers and universals are to be found if somewhere other than in human thought, no answer is forthcoming. — Janus

Huh. I've had several give me what I think is a satisfactory answer. Something like:

"real" in relation to Universals obtains in their examples. The same as "red" which is obviously real, "three" can exist in the same way: In three things. Red exists in red things. I don't see a problem?

This is important. "Real" is perfectly clear and useful in most contexts, because we know how to use it. — J

I think this is an assumption based on a curse of knowledge type thing. What is 'real' is hotly debated socially (if you have a diverse social group, anyway). That's my experience, and my experience in the online world too. I think more and more people think "metaphysically" when assessing 'the real' these days. Not very good fundamental education anymore.

I don't think that's quite true, anymore. I will resile, though, as I have given ample reason to take that seriously ("my truth").

So, what do the theists mean when they say that God or Heaven is real? — Janus

When I've asked, they mean what you go on to posit: it is an empirically real place one's soul ascends to after death (or, God, similar pseudo-physical terms get used). Not all, but that's the most common response I get.

Good luck trying to get everyone to agree on what's plausible. — Janus

I posit that thre is still going to be a 'pregnant middle'. Think of a balloon - pinch opposite sides, and stretch. The top and bottom tapers are those who hold views outside of what most consider reasonable, rational or indeed 'real'. That middle section (pregnant middle) is most people. I agree that getting everyone to agree is a fools errand. That doesn't mean that we can't at the very least, sort out which sense we mean to use the word in, and then discuss, based on that, whether we are making reasonable assertions. I do, also, agree, it's going to end up with "Yes, that's plausible" or not. This is a problem.

Can you imagine any context other than an authoritarian one, where everyone would agree — Janus

I presume the following was to indicate you want to ask about abstract, esoteric matters rather than "is gasoline running my car". I can. I can imagine a society in which there are less variant views generally. This is simply a temporal issue. in 2000 B.C it was probably quite easy, without force, to instantiate certain abstract beliefs in others, if you had a streak to do so. By that, I mean you are energized, articulate and willing to engage, no that you want to force yourself on others.

Liberal thought, especially in its modern egalitarian form, places a premium on equal dignity, autonomy, and the right to participate in discourse. — Wayfarer

This seems empirically wrong. As I see, and seems to be playing out, Liberal thought in it's modern, egalitarian form places a premium on equal outcomes and any disparity in outcome is automatically considered a result of unequal opportunity (this seems the 'woke' take though, so perhaps you're purposefully trying to shunt that off for discussion purposes. If so, that's good. Sorry I've wasted time).

then those without it may be depicted as less capable or qualified — Wayfarer

Definitely. Epistemic injustice is real, despite my extreme discomfort in ever applying it to a situation's description.

The idea of a “higher” truth here isn’t about exclusion but about cultivation — Wayfarer

You've hit the nail here. I think the problem is that there are dumber, and smarter people. Those dumber people who might actually be precluded from employing the mental techniques required for this type of refinement are going to argue that they aren't dumber, and it's you (whoever, whatever) who has prevented their achieving success. This is patent nonsense, but goes to the issues i'm speaking about I guess: If they think "real" means what they interpret their Lot as, then we can't argue with them. There's no refinement to be had.

Accordingly in a liberal setting, saying that an understandingor insight can be qualitatively better can sound like an assault on equality. — Wayfarer

I see you covered that already. :sweat:

Liberalism’s strength is inclusiveness and the prevention of abuses of authority. But Its blind spot can be a reluctance to acknowledge that some perspectives are not just different, but genuinely more coherent, integrated, or profound. — Wayfarer

Yes. I think further, though, it lends itself to not just not acknowledging this, but actively resisting any type of discussion which might describe, in rational terms, why it is true.

The idea that punctuality is racist, as an example. Fucking - no - arrive on time. Bigotry of low expectations seems the order of the day, for this particular mode of activity.

You have just said something unreasonable.

Or you're trolling. Either way, previous comments stand.

I have an answer, from someone else.

"The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, all around, and it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's loud, and it's fun for a while.

Many people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to wonder, 'Is this real, or is this just a ride?' And other people have gotten off the ride, and they come back to us and say, 'Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride.'

And we kill those people. 'Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride! Shut him up! Look at my [money]! Look at my [money]!' It's just a ride.

But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride.

And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to believe that there is an uncrossable line of separation. The eyes of love see that there is no line.

And now, here's the kicker: The choice to be in love, to be in joy, is already yours. The choice to be in peace is already yours. The choice to be in gratitude is already yours. This is your birthright.

So, let go of the fear. Be love. Be peace. Be joy. Be grateful. Be here now.

It's just a ride."

- Bill Hicks, while dying of pancreatic cancer at the age of 32.

in demanding good manners — Athena

This seems problematic. Your concept of 'good manners' is probably not close to universal, so 'demanding' anything along those lines is probably not going to help anyone. That's not to say I have a problem with your conception of 'good manners' though. Just pointing out that if someone disagrees that your demands are reasonable, that's up to them and not you and your demands to respond to.

I have found you rather curt and unimpressive as a polite interlocutor at times. This may be an example of why this is the case. I just don't consider that a lack of 'good manners'. We simply have different views and perhaps see each other in slightly-less-than-ideal lights for various reasons.

Where this gets interesting is when someone is being any number of things which are defined as impolite. I'm thinking here of things like trolling, obtuseness, personal attacks in a context that doesn't call for it, needlessly long-winded bollocks with reference to the Co-operative Principle of conversation (Grice), lying or other forms of deceit for instance.

Are they bad manners, bad nurturing, differences in culture or ignorance? It's quite hard to say in a lot of cases, when where those words are appropriate, because we only have our own view point to judge from.

When we are offended, what is the best way to handle this. — Athena

Unfortunately, I think the 'correct' way (and this in terms of living a happy life, avoiding conflict and all the rest) is to suck it up buttercup. Offense is taken, not given. If someone has said something that gives you a bad taste, either have a discussion and try to mitigate that taste, or walk away. I see no other options.

if you are harmed, that's a difference that matters. But being offended is not being harmed.

No, I think the issue is that if we don't even agree on what's 'real' then we cannot discuss anything other than speculations. That is absolutely a cultural problem. It's not an issue of having differing views, it's about having different standards for things like claims, evidence and rationality.

Consider the phrase "my truth". You cannot discuss with someone who claims this phrase. They are not open to discussions of what is real. They are hung up (almost literally) on their sense of self-hood, to the point that other considerations beyond "what I think right now" are not relevant.

Those of us who reject this are now in a different world it seems. That's a massive problem that faces anyone from any walk of life, if instantiated in their interactions with the world. The charge of this being conservative is unsubstantiated and possibly self-serving, me thnks.

Trollish? There is no chance you're here in good faith.

As noted, you could review the exchanges where i have said things like "I do not think this is a reasonable response". But, you could also continue on with your biases, reading things in and out of the comments to your heart's content.

If you've only skimmed them, bugger off and read them properly. That might explain why you're saying unreasonable things. And again, indicates you're not here in good faith.

causes suffering in itself — boethius

What suffering?

one cannot exclude the role of Divine intervention when it comes to life! — MoK

Sure, as night pointed out, rejecting does not mean accepting it as false.

However, we can absolutely set it to one side until something even vaguely indicative comes along. So far, it hasn't, so we're almost behooved to set it to one side, currently. This has been the case for about 200 years, best I can tell. There's simply no good reason to continue entertaining it on current knowledge. Given that this is a culmination of moving away from Divine intervention as a reasonable hypothesis, the indication is that the more we know, the less likely it becomes to the point of almost assured falsity (not assured - almost assured).

If someone does not think prostitution is a legitimate job, in the same way they do not think raising one's own children is not a legitimate job, that's fine by me. It's contentious.

I personally support the rights of sex workers and the autonomy that comes with engaging in it safely. That means I support the legal frameworks that protect and, at times, encourage sex work to occur.

That said, I am firmly in the camp that going to OnlyFans instead of getting a skilled job is absolutely a cop-out and not something we can sufficiently compare as "work". This seems evidenced by the lack of reasonable responses from OnlyFans models when questioned about their work.

And no. Being good at sex, or presentation of sex is not a 'skill' the way vocational skills are skills. Yes, one could learn carpentry to build only their own home. One can have sex purely in private circumstances. But doing carpentry for someone else is a massively different thing that selling your sexual content online. Particularly if it is essentially of your private sex life (couples who sell content, eg).

No, they just are not relevant to what I'm pointing out. I've bene over why some of your responses are unreasonable at the time i responded to them. It doesn't seem to bare repeating.. You can review if you'd like to.

Fair enough on the second comment :P

When they see ads that trade in implicit racism or sexism, they are disappointed by the choices made. — Tom Storm

That's fine, but generally when they see this in something or other, they can just be wrong, though. Usually are. That's the problem. The majority of those who Fire and I are referencing (to be sure, I am speaking about people who fit the bill. Not trying to fit people into the bill - I think that is what the Woke do).

The response to this ad campaign is just not justified in these terms. You have to be out of your mind to think that ad is championing White Supremacy. Utterly bereft of either sense, or cultural understanding. This is just as obvious with claims about misogyny among young people. Daily there are reels and reels of people confronting businesses or individuals over perceived slights that are plainly either invented, extremely tenuous or made-up for clicks. I'm sure you're aware of this. And that's what we're referring to. Those people are moving on feelings without any reasoning. Just some pre-recorded reaction of "hear word A, do x" I've been able to have a couple (including my wife, when we met) admit this. But it doesn't stop them from doing it (other than my wife) in my experience. That is a serious issue if we are ever to get along with one another. Given it's young people, it's an extreme worry for those of us who are not yet middle-aged.

I think having children usually changes this bent from Left to Right. And those who don't change when they have children tend to raise relatively unregulated children. A recent convert is Whitney Cummings, who was a pretty obvious darling of, at least, the non-card-carrying left. Once she had a kid, it all changed and she's been quite public about it.

Guys, let's just leave him to it. Nothing is going to move someone who is capable, in earnest, of responding to Fire's post with this:

"That, to me, is why you’re employing the bandwagon fallacy, as others have already. You think it does something to me; maybe it makes me feel lonely over here all alone. But it doesn’t. And it doesn’t do your little group any favors when you have to resort to such efforts."

This is not a person engaging in good faith, or with any reasonable basis. This is an embarrassed toddler saving face.

Double-edged. For some, surely that'll be the case. For most, they know what they know and that's all they can go on. In this way, most people probably just have more deep-seated and identity-forming notions of history, regardless of accuracy or holistic thinking.

It's probably better for institutions and worse for individuals, but I understand the opposite is the intuitive take, probably.

These same facts obtain at every moment of everyone's waking life. — hypericin

Generally speaking, we do not walk into or out of teletransporters. Can you perhaps make it a bit more explicit how those facts obtain in that way? And what of sleep?

Several things, but that wasn't what I was trying to point out. It seems, perhaps, my optimism was misplaced though: What you have quoted is my trying to have you notice that you are not getting what FireOlogist is saying. He is trying to get you to see your biases, and pointing out that AE's plan, if there was one, was to get you to do exactly what you're doing. Nothing to do with the right promoting anything. Again, you can reject this, but it seems clear to me and probably Fire.

Do you not see that what Fireologist is outlining is exactly the situation which would lead you to say this? Obviously, that doesn't close any books but I do genuinely think you're not reflecting in a reasonable way here.

Reacting to one's environment. Perhaps awareness isn't the right word, but my recollection of The Conscious Mind tells me those terms are used as noted here - where awareness is below self-awareness, or some such distinction. An amoeba can be aware, react to stimuli etc.. but has no concept of itself or "difference" more generally. It reacts, rather than responds I think is the move.
A being self-aware would be capable of both reaction, and response.

From a 3p perspective, one of those first beings does still experience. But none of them have an experience if you see the difference there...

Anything negative i've said about you personally(though, i take it I haven't, just being funny here) can be rescinded and in fact, reversed, based on this. Well done LOL

how unwoke is is. — Fire Ologist

I think it's a bit worse, though I definitely take Praxis' point (however buried it might be) that it is probably not a majority of people 'on that side' doing this, but...

The 'woke' reaction is to jump straight to 'Nazi', 'eugenics' etc.. and actually, genuinely talk about a society-wide conspiracy to ... do what? Kill all blacks? What hte heck are they even pointing to?

Turns out, its white supremacy. Which is, prima facie, an after due consideration utterly fucking preposterous to the point that I am willing to laugh in the face of the social incels who make this claim.

Is it not possible they - knew - and decided to not react to what might happen, and run the ad campaign anyway? That would have been my position on the matter. It's a good ad, and one which reflects certain trends (the Beyonce ad was extremely similar) but instantiates a return to "mainstream" images. I can't see that there is any way to impugn that tactic from a company called American Eagle without some further indication.

That it went this way is great, for them. I can't understand that they would have planned it. Shes hot, young, popular and wants to work with them. They need naught else to pull the trigger.

It seems far more likely that a company would use impugning white, blonde young women as a strategy to rile up the public, given that is:

A. More likely to piss off the right-wing and cause much more of a up-roar than that found among the slowly-declining Woke messaging mechanisms; and

B. Grabbed a demo (Woke, such as it is) that they probably had no real hooks in previously, other than by habit.

The CNN "possibly white" debacle sort of shows that companies will make utterly ridiculous, un-sound and irrational decisions in service of the above tactic. It is not possible anyone, in good faith, thought that shooter was white.

I can’t name even one wokeist or liberal that helped to promote it. — praxis

You can find compilations of wokists, including a handful of celebrities decrying the campaign, most notably Lizzo, Colbert, Doja Cat. But it is mostly non-celebrity figures. There are compilations of people breaking down calling it eugenics, calling it Nazism, facism etc.. etc.. all over the place. I cannot be bothered finding the source videos, but there's only a couple in these links I haven't seen in their natural habitat. That said, I recognize these videos are heavily biased, overall. I don't care abou the commentary, just that it brings together several examples of what I'm talking about.

AE manipulated the right into promoting the campaign — praxis

No, I don't think that's right. Besides the fact that all advertising manipulates its demo (i.e, that is not disparaging and is, in fact, a success of the campaign if so) i find it hard (as explained above) to conceive of AE caring about that particular division among the public.

But you could be right. And if so, i don't see the issue. That is what advertising does. And it worked.

Something like that strikes me as highly plausible. I think that's roughly the Chalmersian take too - but he calls awareness without experience consciousness too - I find that a hard sell, but all else about panpsychism attracts me so .. I could just be wrong LOL

I cannot help a horse put its snout in the water. I explained in extreme detail why this is the exact wrong description of what's happened. Onward, i suppose...

You are saying my slapping you across your face did not cause you to feel and hear a slap. You are saying your own brain caused these things and it is fully up to your free self to feel the slap, and/ or slap me back. Me, I am utterly not responsible for what happens in your experience. — Fire Ologist

An absolutely excellent encapsulation of the issue. Thanks for that.

I think awareness and consciousness differ, but they might be hte same genus. In that way, I can see how panpsychism could be illusory purely in the sense that we want to relate to other objects, so their "being aware" the way a eukaryote is (responds to environment etc..) is enough for us to all be on the same page, even though we do not share experiences at all.

But, I also agree with Patterner that it's going to be one or the other. Then again, I feel the same about sense data, so perhaps I'm missing a trick..

Have you had a look through the previous pages? I think much of what you might want to canvas has been brought to the table and discussed. Have fun :P

Neither response addresses why it needs to be your atoms — Mijin

I've addressed this twice. You can either review the exchange, where I noted that numerical identity bakes this aspect in (i.e there isn't a question. It is ridiculous. Why is water wet, mate?). It shouldn't be my responsibility to repeat myself over and over for you to get a point.

what if we create a mind using partially your atoms and partially others (I make a brain — Mijin

A brain isn't a mind, or at least we cannot assume that for the purposes of the discussion., You are making plenty of fundamental assumptions and then getting confused when these are up for debate. This may explain a lot. Please try to notice where you've made an assumption. I will try to b clearer when I think tihs is what's on the table.

if the only consideration is that it is the same atoms, what if the transporter does use the same atoms, however, those atoms need to spend T time unconnected. When they get reassembled afterwards, did you survive that? What if T is 1 million years? — Mijin

This would simply be the same question as "are you the same person when you awake?" Those atoms are still those atoms, and still constitute you (on this account - you still seem to be under the impression this is my position i'm defending. It is not. Please calm down). So, yes, you would, under almost all accounts that aren't further fact accounts.

Crucially, can this position be used to answer any of the questions related to the transporter that I have posed? — Mijin

It answers them all. I've been explicit about this. The only possible "interesting" change is the idea that the transporter literally beams the exact same atoms to Mars. There's questions here about whether or not unity of your atoms create anything of significance, but most people are going to assume only the brain is relevant to that consideration - thus leapfrogging the entire question of what constitutes identity (or whether it obtains at all. I say not, so most of these questions don't make sense to me). To be super, super, un-debatably clear:

If the position is that my atoms make me then there is no version of the transporter in which I survive, without your ad hoc adjustment about taking my atoms and sending them across space (note, this is not the thought experiment, but an interesting adjustment for sure). The TE postulates that a blueprint is sent and 3D-prints another body that supposedly can carry your consciousness. You'll note (and i don't reply to this later, so do take note) that intuitions about consciousness is only one aspect of what this experiment draws out of us. It also draws out intuitions about "selfhood" generally, bodily continuity, time, space and the possiblity of "multiples" given certain theories on might take up. It is certainly not as simple and restricted as you contend.

We may as well go with the "mojo" explanation for consciousness and declare no follow-up questions about mojo are permitted. — Mijin

That is, roughly, what a further fact account will do, unfortunately. But that is canyons from what I've said, and explained. You can reject it, but I have made the position consistent enough that it is logically discreet. Its brute, as noted.

It is both true that I am me. And that I am Mijin. — Mijin

So, hang on mate - you've accepted my premise wholesale. Yet you opened with:

What the hell? — Mijin

Please have a think before posting these comments. The inconsistency will turn me and others off pretty quick, if they are personal like this. Onward..

I am not interested in the trivial question of whether I am still me if I lose a pinkie. — Mijin

You asked me a question under which that is a direct, relevant and telling response. If you do not want to talk about Identity, the transporter and all its implications, you could have said that instead of stringing this exchange along to an end that tells me you are not open to discussions that challenge your presumptions. If my position is that the transporter problem tells us that consciousness is not hte most important aspect of discussions on identity, then that's what it is. You can't just say "nah, not that kind of reply". That is... ridiculous my dude.