Because they didn't have analytics. I am not saying people couldn't think only that certain intellectual paradigms had not been reached (such as Evidence and Reason) in any common sense we understand them today. Science is younger than the Church for instance.

Our concepts of cause and effect are modern concepts. It is foolish to assume otherwise given that even in Newtons time people thought his ability to plot out the motion of a ball to be magic. — I like sushi

Applying modern ideas to cavemen is not really helpful. Do you really think that cause and effect was not understood by these prehistoric ancestors of ours? If that were true I very much doubt that humans could have reached the point were we are having this discussion.
Self preservation is based on analyzing situations I believe. For example: Joe walked into the fast river and was never seen again, I wont go into the river if it is fast. Fred threw a rock at his missus and she wont wake and there is no more nooky,I will not throw rocks at my missus. But yes, unexplainable things are the same as magic to the uneducated mind.

No they are not. Meaning they are not simple questions they only look simple to us who know better. I imagine you might ask in the same light why would someone not clean their hands before tending to someone else's wound ... because there was no germ theory. Again, another instance of something we see as 'obvious' yet did not arise until long after the rise of the modern sciences. — I like sushi

They were simple questions, the answers though were not simple. But they tried to find answers to them which I believe meant that they analyzed the information available and acted upon it to survive. Once again you are confusing modern ideas and principles with caveman mentality. Just because they did not get all of the answers correct does ot mean that they did not try to do the best with the knowledge available.

And there are still people that do not wash their hands after having a shit. :worry:

How very charitable of you, Sir. :smirk: — 180 Proof

Who knows, it might be true. :wink:

Evidence from psychological and cognitive science studies indicates this is not true. Language, including grammar and naming is a genetically inherited human capability. — T Clark

The ability to metabolize alcohol that is in the genes of most Europeans is not present in those of many Asians, so they are not good at boozing. This genetic adaption in the Europeans was a process that happened over time, supposed because of their use of brewing their drinks instead of boiling the water to purify it. Is it possible that there is a language gene?

Not all scientist agree that language is innate in humans but say that the ability to learn many things is, from this point of view it would be a learned ability like walking or swimming. We are born with the ability to learn to do many things but they are not in themselves intrinsic.
Many parts of the body are adapted to do specific things, like the vocal cords for instance. Some say that we have vocal cords so that we can speak, but if that was so then I could have chats with my dogs.
Learning to speak is something we do as a child, but yes we do need all of the parts of, including the mental processes, to be able to do it.
Personally I think that the need to communicate is intrinsic and the ability to learn things is as well. But I am still not sure about language being hard wired, but I am not a scientist.

A thought, if language was hard wired would that mean that there are some specific genes that control this function? As with the alcohol gene, would it be a racial, cultural, societal, ethnic adaption? What would happen if it was a specific gene that was tied to the ancestors of a baby and that baby was brought up by a completely different environment?

And the funny thing is that some people still insist on using human science as a bookmark for knowledge when we don't even have a complete picture of how we work?

Why would they question things they did not understand.
This is certainly a modern analytic assumption that drives at the heart of why I found the idea fascinating — I like sushi

Why would they not? Why did he not move when I kicked him? Why does my belly hurt after I ate that dead bird I found yesterday? Simple questions that helped them to survive are analytic.

The development of the specific term God is middle eastern/western. There is no primary concept of God (or religion) in the East. — I like sushi

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=God+

I doubt that the term god or even religion were ever used by our cave dwelling prehistoric ancestors.
But I would bet that they did know the concept of "smarter being" and used it to explain things that they could not. "Ask the shaman the next time you see him, he should know" and when he does not have an answer "I will ask the great shaman the next time I see him" . It must end somewhere so the biggest shaman was made permanently unavailable and became a god.

You're conflating "unexplainable events" with fanciful possibilities. — Relativist

And you are conflating unknown possibility with improbable probabilities. I think you missed the point.
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Arthur C. Clarke

Earths scientists still do not know a lot about earth itself, no one can say what might be possible in other parts of the universe. Even if the laws of the universe are standard, we still do not know all of them.

We could only possibly look for such planets within a relatively short distance from us: a sphere centered from earth out to a fraction of the volume of the Milky Way. — Relativist

So how can anyone be so sure that there are no other intelligent beings out there?

Detecting life outside the galaxy seems extremely far fetched. 1% probability of intelligence developing seems grossly optimistic. On earth, only 1 out of 8.7 Million species have a human level of intelligence. — Relativist

A million stars is only about one tenth of one percent of the stars in the Milky way. Once again, we still know very little about our own planet

https://www.the-sun.com/tech/12417100/bluestreak-cleaner-wrasse-self-awareness-mirror-study-japan/

More pertinent: I see intelligence as just one (complex) trait that life can possibly develop out of an uncountably large number of possible traits. This implies an extremely low probability. — Relativist

But even low probabilities are not the same as impossibilities.

he different terms for saying dick in Spanish. Pick your favourite. :grin: — javi2541997

Falta verga, pinga y en frente de damas, la veronica.

Hasta hoy note que tiene esta seccion, Hay que buscar temas interesantes para que puedo invitar unos amigos.

Debido a qué no se puede responder con la misma palabra, yo sigo optando por ausente, que curiosamente no aparece en el grupo de sinónimos antes expresado. :smile: — javi2541997

Desaparecido i ausente no tienen el mismo sentido, ni en ingles. Ausente implica que no esta present pero que se sabe que esta en algun lugar. Desaparecido implica que no puede ver o encontrar por ningun lado. Ausente normalmente tiene algun razon por no esta presente, pero desaparecido usualmente no tiene explicacion.

It's logically possible, just like it's logically possible we could work magic, or summon demons, if we just had the right incantation. There's really not much difference, when we start considering possibilities that contradict science that is as well established as relativity. — Relativist

Events that are unexplainable by current science is usually indistinguishable from magic. Or do you think our scientists know all about the universe already?

The best guess is that conditions need to be similar to earth's: goldilocks zone orbiting a star liquid water, heavy elements in sufficient abundance.

And that's just for life. We humans are the unlikely consequence of a series of environmental/evolutionary accidents- so the probability of life with similar intelligence seems quite low. — Relativist

https://www.littlepassports.com/blog/space/how-many-stars-are-in-the-universe/

https://access-ci.org/billions-and-billions-of-stars/

Considering that the Milky Way, our home galaxy, has over 100 billion stars in it.

100% = 100,000,000,000
1% = 1,000,000,000
0.1% = 10,000,000
0.01%= 1,000,000

If we count only one hundredth of one percent of the stars in the Milky Way as possibly having a planet in the Goldilocks zone, that is still a million planets that might contain the elements of life. If we count only one hundredth of one percent of those as possibly containing life, that still leaves us with a hundred possibilities. Obviously the one percent possibility of there being intelligent life on any of those planets could explain us being here. And all of those without looking outside of our galaxy.

Even if there may be life with such intelligence, it's not inevitable that it would be inclined toward science and technology - particularly the relevant technology that would make itself known, or travel - instead of making its lives richer in other ways, or self-destructing (like we might). — Relativist

That is what I have been saying all along, We might just be the poor people in the neighborhood and so they ignore us.

At some point someone would talk about someone with an ability to do something better than anyone else and this concept over time - tied in with storytelling - could develop either a concept of a being powerful in several areas or, with more Eastern thought, a concept of a unifying energy.

It is more or less our seeming natural propensity to imagine beyond the limits of our immediate scope and experience that I am talking about and that this is an advantageous attribute if we wish to impress others. Given that weaving a complex and compelling story in prehistory would have similar effects to evidential facts today I think there is weight to this general lien of thinking. — I like sushi

Seeing as how early groups of humans were small and nomadic I guess there would be a possibility that story swapping would take place when groups met, If one group had maybe met a skilled hunter and shared their knowledge of him and his prowess it would be like the old game of telephone. As the other group would probable never meet the hunter they would pass along the story about the far away super person and it would change with each knew group repeating it slightly differently and adding things.
It might have worked, but there would still have been a grain of reality at the beginning.

Some scientists believe that modern humans are sort of hardwired to accept, even expect, the existence of a god. But the results of their experiments come from examining the modern brain, so it is not really possible to say whether it is part of the original human template or part of an evolved rewiring over time.

points out that naming things seems to be an intrinsic part of human thought processes, but it seems to me that it is a learned ability. From the very beginning of their lives they are shown things and told the names of those things.
It might just be that the word god was the name given to anything that was unexplainable and originally meant "I don't know".

Faster than light travel and jumping through hyperspace are fantasy. — Relativist

No idea about that, but just because we don't understand it does not mean it is not possible. We did not even know there were other galaxies until a 100 years ago.

And much SF makes the silly assumption life is ubiquitous, and that it would tend to produce beings anything like us. — Relativist

How much life there is out there, I have no idea either. So many movies and books have beings that are literally monsters, blobs, massive spiders and scorpion like things, and the drive space ships with tools and instruments that look as if they are made for humans.

If you think about it, humanoid is the ideal type of being for developing technology. Crab like pincers, sucker cups, long claws and so on would probably not get far inventing tools let alone high tech stuff.

Hands of some sort I think would be a necessary part of tool development.

Are they overly influenced by watching science fiction? — Relativist

I read and watch a lot of Sci-Fi, but I try hard to remember that they are fiction, even the hard Sci-Fi stories based on real facts.

Anyway, thoughts and ideas on this specific idea welcome. — I like sushi

I think that this would be a possible second step in the process, but I cannot really see it being the principle cause of the creation of a god. They are still doing it today.

Could you give a little more detail about how it might have occurred.

The local opinion about Chinese cars is that they only use enough metal to hang the paint onto.

I am not sure, but I think I already mentioned something similar.
But let's not pettifog about it.

Interesting, I did not know that it was such a big thing.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/automotive-industry/chinese-made-cars-in-us-market-a3786571662/

China has its fingers in almost everything you touch nowadays, so why would you not buy one of their cars?

When someone buys something, almost anything, there are many factors that have to be taken into account

Some just want cheap because they do not have the money for anything else.
Some prefer higher quality and are prepared to pay for it.
Some buy according to their needs, a pickup, family car, high economy run around, van.
And some buy just because the bloody thing looks pretty.

If the Chinese products fit your needs, why not buy it? Cellphones, tee-shirts, motorbikes, even MAGA caps were made in China.

Many years ago my wife had a little business selling used clothes. Where she bought the packets they advertised as GENUINE IMPORTED USA products. Most of the clothes were made in Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, China, Philippines, even some made here in Honduras. Only about ten percent were made in the good old USA.

I remember a long time ago when the same thing was happening with Japanese products.

If Trump wins and inexplicably prevents on "blood bath" he promises a 100% tariff, but they would still be cheap. — Fooloso4

Do Buicks and Lincoln get built outside of the USA?

There are always dangers in this universe. Wandering black holes, gamma ray bursts, solar flares, and of course, a possible nearby alien civilization more powerful than oneself. — RogueAI

Yes indeed, all of those do exist. Not all stars have solar flares as intense as our sun, and it would make for an even more ideal place for life to evolve.
How many times has humanity had to deal with the rest of these dangers? Why would it be different for them?
But I am glad that you think there are others out there, even if you believe that they will be bad guys that we need to defend ourselves from.

My posts are predicated on the aliens you were talking about earlier: aliens who can communicate by fermions and neutrinos. If you're talking about aliens who aren't technologically advanced then obviously none of what I said applies. — RogueAI

Technical advancement is a funny thing, it tends to go in the direction of needs. On a world that has a high population and a late start in technology, they might be 100% towards feeding and housing their people. I cannot imagine the cost of a tight beam of neutrinos being directed at a distant planet would cheep thing to accomplish for a planet. Even if the know how to do it they would probably spend their resources creating better methods of producing food..

Concepts of defense and self-preservation are going to be universal. — RogueAI

I might agree with self preservation if you agree that it means keeping yourself alive and reproducing. Defense implies there is something to protect from, what if there are no dangers where the super intelligent being live. Would the instinct still develop?

We must look for other explanations for the Fermi paradox, — Linkey

Another reason they don't come looking for us, we only have 2 legs and are not cute enough to be pets. :rofl:

And probably, imo, "they" are not even – are no longer – "species" but instead spacefaring AI probes (operationally independent of their long ago left behind biological makers).. — 180 Proof

You will be assimilated whether you fucking like it or not. :rofl:

I think any space-faring species will be somewhat curious, and any species that has climbed on top of the evolutionary ladder is going to be somewhat concerned with self-preservation, so yes, they're going to want to know that their neighbors are up to and they're going to spend a fair amount of money to find out. — RogueAI

Judging other species by human standards is the first mistake, even human tribes have shown to have great differences in their way of thinking, seeing and doing things.

Is there any guarantee that other highly intelligent and knowledgeable species would be space fairing?
Even if the greatest members of an alien species are capable of space travel, there is no guarantee that the rest of the population will let them do it. NASA was almost shut down several times because of the expenses and only a few private ones are running.

If a very intelligent alien species develops on a planet that does not have the natural minerals and elements necessary for space travel, what would they do?

If they developed on a world where there were no predators and that they were at the top of the ladder from day one, would they have defensive reflexes like humans do?

To call humans space fairing is a bit of a misnomer I think, even if Musk make it to Mars in a couple of years.
I know several very intelligent people that have little or no curiosity at all, so we cannot even say that it is common in humans.

They won't send probes to another galaxy, but they would certainly investigate nearby planets with biosignatures. — RogueAI

So you think that it might be possible for life to develop on more that one planet in the same solar system? I did not say that they would look for life in other galaxies, just in other parts of their own.

And one last possibility, how about a very intelligent race that has no appendages. They could quite easily conquer their own world, but operate tool? How would they become technologically advanced? There might be hundreds of planets containing intelligent life out there, why would we be so sure that they can or want to communicate with other species? Maybe there are even others like us, listening to the skies and wondering why no one is calling but do not know how to receive the messages either. I use WhatsApp, you use Telegram, how do we arrange a meeting?

Man should stop thinking the universe runs in his image, cuase it just don't.

If they can communicate by fermion or neutrino, it would be trivial to send probes to nearby planets with biosignatures and keep an eye on them. — RogueAI

Just how trivial do you think it might be? The ability to do something like sending probes to other parts of the universe in no way implies the need, want, or even financial capability to do so.

As I asked earlier, are you prepared to spend money on something that might not give any results or benefit?.

There is another good reason that might explain why the have not communicated with us, maybe there goods have convinced them that they are alone in the universe so they are not interest in looking.

They would still know of radio and remember their own days of listening to the skies with radio telescopes. It wouldn't take much to beam powerful radio signals to all the nearby habitable planets. — RogueAI

Yes, they probably would.

One question though, would you be interested in investing in an expensive blue-ray machine just in-case a company in Russia might release a movie with that technology in the next 20 years? Or possible buy a wax cylinder manufacturing company in-case some music company plans to release songs on them in a couple of decades.

Maybe they feel the same way.

So, if we count the possible satisfaction of the victims as bookmark for calculation, is there ever going to be a chance of breaking even. Even with monumental expenditure of time and effort I doubt that many expectations will be met.

How, for instance, could the damage done by the internment of US Japanese citizens during WW2 be in compensated any form?
If we try to figure out exactly what the present generations have lost because of that, what would we find?

To the point: the dead are dead, and unless you can make the dead laugh, reparations to them is nonsense-talk. — tim wood

Agreed.

To the living, assistance to overcome the costs of the effects of prejudice. — tim wood

And how to calculate the cost of previous generation is the biggest problem, recent events might be easier.
Could the word of the affected count as evidence of their suffering compared to others? Would statistical comparisons give a better idea of the effects?
Just how far are they willing to go to call an action racial?

Afro Americans were given a lower class of education for generations, that led them to be able to perform lower paid jobs, which in turn made it impossible for them to acquire a house, this meant that they had to live in low rent neighborhoods with low quality schools and repeat the cycle in the next generation.

How far back is it possible to go and still calculate the difference that would have been made in their lives today. If an Afro American was given a good education three generations ago, would comparing that family to the rest of the Afro American population give us an idea of how bad the damage is? Or would it be better going back further or just one generation?

I have no idea how anyone could be compensated for the loss nor what assistance could be given.

If not for the generous and more than generous gifts of the universe, where do you suppose you would be? — tim wood

That is sort of like a father that has just shot one son in the stomach and the other in the head, then saying "If it was not for me, you would not be here to die."

The are millions of ways to die, but only one to get a life. That is not fair.

Yes. Or maybe we have received their signals but our systems lack the sensitivity and/or bandwidth (maybe they use neutrinos rather than EM waves) to distinguish those signals from the cosmic background noise. — 180 Proof

Yes, that is basically what I said to L'éléphant. But it might even be possible that they use fermions. That would be a more appropriate.

But we are referring to the same universe you and I exist in. That's what I meant when I said, there's not much signals except the radioactivity because the universe is made of those elements. — L'éléphant

The fact that we have not received any signals does not mean that they are not out there, it just means that we have not received signals. We are in no position to say that we know all about the possible methods of communication between the stars.
What if they are still using smoke signals, live under water, have invented some sort of faster than light method, live on a planet that never has a direct line of sight with the earth, or are telepathic. Maybe they don't believe in extraterrestrial beings and see no point in trying to communicate.Just because they live in the same universe does not mean that they are like us in any way. Or maybe they just don't care.

I think that one of the biggest problems would be in the alien home world itself. It is doubtful that very many of the radio type signals leaving the earth are actually being received by anyone out there, so it is doubtful that they even know we are here.
Contrary to what a lot of people believe it is probably not that easy to detect soap opera transmissions over in the next solar system unless they are really trying. To reach over the distance between stars a very high powered, tight bean signal would need to transmitted over a long period of time directly at the target planet for them to detect it and figure out it was a signal to them. But they would need to be listening in the right direction as well. How much would it cost to be either listening for or transmitting these signals. Do you think that the earths economy would support such endeavors?
Then they would have to overcome language barriers first, to translate the data into something recognizable.

Their method of communication might be different. And yet, radioactivity is the universal language of the entire universe. — L'éléphant

You suppose, entirely without any base, that they are at least as advanced as we are.

There are 118 known elements in the universe, 92 found on Earth. Apparently, if there undiscovered elements, our scientists could predict what they are. — L'éléphant

Since it is actually just about a hundred years ago that other galaxies were proven to exist, it might just be there are many more that they could not predict yet.

At any rate, having this knowledge is in no way a guarantee that we have similar methods of communication. I thought that I had made that obvious in the comment about the glass and the deaf mute people on the other side of the wall. But you could also try giving that data to a tribesman in the Amazon and see how far you get with communication.

If aliens exist, they don't have much freedom as to what radioactivity they could emit -- they don't have the smorgasbord of elements to combine into their supersignal — L'éléphant

And exactly what is their "supersignal" going to be like? And what would we need to do to receive it?

It could peek into the distant past of 13.7 B years. — L'éléphant

It could also turn out to be a glass on the wall of a deaf/mute couple discussing Einstein's theories, absolutely useless.
If we do not know their method of communication, we might never stumble upon the thousands of cold calls their insurance companies have been making to us. We might even have blocked them without knowing it.

Extra question: Is the Fermi paradox actually a paradox? Or just two statements about different topics?

The general form of the remedy as it occurs to me is to provide for each individual an opportunity to recover what was taken. And again in general terms, what was taken was opportunity itself. — tim wood

As individuals in modern times, trying to reverse in some way the injustices of racism to these people would be a long way from appeasing the horrors of the actual uprooting their ancestors. One would be a way to compensate for recent events, the other would have to address the reasons or causes of them being placed in the recent situation

I recall pictures from 1957 in Little Rock, Arkansas, of soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division of the US Army escorting nine students into their high school. — tim wood

I remember in the late 60's having a police car following the school bus as it started its new route to pick up kids in Afro American neighborhoods as well the the white kids from theirs. None of the Afro American kids were going to the white schools so the buses had to make 2 drop-offs. It was not a comfortable situation for a teenager.

But I still remember that in the 3 schools I attended in the USA, all students and teachers were white. But there was still discrimination of many sorts. Those from old families looked down their noses at almost everyone. The reasonably well off looked down their noses at the white trash. The city dwellers, the swamp and bayou living Cajuns had different points of view. Outsiders, like my family, were welcomed mostly as long as you did not go against their way of life. I got people angry sometimes for failing to follow their rules and earned a couple of bloody noses too.

And there were still "whites only" signs in a lot of shop windows.

Personally I think that almost everyone has been discriminated against in some way or other, the universe is not a fair place. In one town in England I had to go to a different school than my best friend across the road. Just because I lived across some imaginary line I was sent to a school and lost by best mate, who can I sue?

Have you ever heard of this gentleman? Some of his words were quite prophetic, but by today's standards, racist.

https://anth1001.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/enoch-powell_speech.pdf

Reparations are usually about either a fine/punishment, or an attempt to restore the victim to some status quo ante. — tim wood

I kind of agree with you here, both in the definition and that it will not be easy to implement.

The idea of fining or punishing those with some sort of responsibility in slavery seems remote, all are dead. To pass the bill to their families would be the next step then maybe, but they are now mostly far removed from the fortunes made in those days. It would be difficult to prove that their wealth is a direct result of slavery in most cases.
To try and pass the bill to anyone that had in some way been benefited by slavery would mean that even the decedents of the peasants that went to work in the cotton factories would have to pay.
To say that a whole country is responsible and that the governments should pay the bill means that the everyday person in the street would have his taxes used for something that he has no responsibility for.
A very difficult problem indeed.

To attempt to restore the victim to some status quo ante would in my opinion be even more complicated. Even if their ancestors were traced and the victims were offered the chance to live the life that they would have occupied in the present if slavery had not sidetracked them, most would be a lot worse off than they are now.

On a slightly different note, has anyone ever heard of cases of claims for reparations being made against the African slavers that did a lot of the capturing of the people then sold them to the white men, or the slavers that captured and used them even before the white man appeared?

I make Mancunians responsible for the tomatina party, especially Sir2u. — javi2541997

You can blame them all you want, I have not seen another one for at least 40 years. :lol: :rofl:

If I had to choose a fruit representing philosophy, I would go for a coconut. — javi2541997

Maybe you are right, coconuts either ripen on the tree or not at all. Not like other fruits that will still ripen as long as they are cut after maturity. Coconuts just rot away if not used.

While on the topic, I have about 300 - 500 coconuts for sale every couple of weeks. $1 each.

A herd animal, by the looks. — AmadeusD

He wants to bang a herd??????? :gasp:

Can I just second that motion! :rofl:

I confess to being just an utmost humble servant of our Almighty Master, Lord of both worlds, and Creator of this universe. — Tarskian

All rise for the Flying Spaghetti Monster/

The solution is: no civil marriage, no cohabitation, no children, and preferably no sex (both in China and) in the West. That avoids serious legal problems for both men and women. That is why this lifestyle policy is clearly in everybody's best interest. — Tarskian

If enough of people like you follow this advise the world will be a much better place for the rest of us.

Close to half of the population will live through a harrowing court case, called "divorce". It is a byproduct of civil marriage. No civil marriage means no divorce court case.

But then again, I have also pointed out that you can avoid many of these problems by moving your private life outside the West. — Tarskian

It is just as you say here in the west, maybe we should all do as they do in the east. No divorce needed, just stone them to death.

RIP Alain Delon

Another one bites the dust.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/alain-delon-frances-flawed-screen-064114112.html

I’m not looking for advice, but simply to say that, maybe, philosophy, does not work in real situations. Or, maybe it work too well? Is philosophy the real truth-teller? — Rob J Kennedy

Philosophy is not a problem solver, it is a way of think that can be used to solve problems.

Any union of people in bad faith, whether a job, club or marriage is bad for your mental health.
Give it up and find something that that will make life pleasant.

Plants seem to desire sunlight when they move towards it. — praxis

A desire, which is basically an emotion, would mean that the being had a feeling of need or maybe an inclination towards something.

Plants only react to the changes in their environment.