Apologies for the side-track. — jorndoe

It’s an interesting issue, but perhaps on another thread about US-Chinese tensions.

Hope we don’t have a thread like ”The war in Taiwan” in the future.

As one can say that the war started in 2014, it’s still quite some time to be as long as the 30-years war. But likely the high tempo of this conventional war means that this war now will be measured in years and months. Not decades.

Insurgencies and other low level conflicts can endure for centuries. Like just how long have the muslims in the Phillipines, the Moros, fought against occupiers? It has been the Spanish, the Americans, the Japanese (briefly) and now the Phillipines government who have fought against them. Hopefully now peace could prevail.

But DeSantis may actually be worse. He seems like a meaner, dumber, younger and less charismatic version of Trump — GRWelsh

In that case guess he has good chances with the hard-core Republicas, I guess.

So the Russians have mined the nuclear power plant. Luckily winds can blow to the east and northeast.

But if Putin really wants to create a wasteland…

Again something telling from Biden administration: today it was formally announced that Biden is visiting Finland. Yet it did ’t come as a surprise as days ago it was reported that the White House was inspecting the medical services in the hospitals in Helsinki.

Of course someone will argue that this is ”standard precautions” when any POTUS visits abroad, but I actually don’t think so. Didn’t happen with all earlier presidential visits. He is 80 years or so, hence there’s a real possibility that the guy will die or be totally unable to perform even the mandatory performance that a president needs to do in the next administration.

Yet the bigger question is, what on Earth is this love affair that the US voter has with very old people? What is wrong with people in their 50’s or 60’s?

If the answer is that they are the only people given, then why accept it?

A very good, detailed synopsis of what just happened:



Also goes well through what a coup is (which has been debated here) and also gives a good description of the actual combat that took place.

Seems you have no understanding of how NATO works.

Russia provided that show of force the same year NATO proclaimed its intention to incorporate Ukraine and Georgia. So I guess it's not that 'simple'. — Tzeentch

That talks before Feb 24th show this quite obviously. It wouldn’t have been Hungary, it would also have been Germany. Just as a decade earlier the Wikileaks papers told how US official saw ”a lot of work” to be done then with Germany. Well, that field of work existed prior to the full invasion also.

It is that simple.

Yes, haha, that’s the perpetual problem in pushing your borders further for ”protection” and ”safety”.

A simple show of force by Russia would have put Ukrainian aspirations to NATO into limbo. Just like the Turkey’s aspirations into EU are.

NATO isn’t the rubber stamp of US policy as you think.

And Sweden and Finland would not have joined (or tried to join) NATO if not for Feb 24th invasion.

Russia attacked Ukraine to annex territory, not to offset NATO enlargement, because it didn’t have to attack Ukraine for that not to happen. NATO enlargement is for Russia here as is spreading democracy is in US foreign interventions. A rosy reason for aggression (as if it would have been for self defense).

Again what is revealed is that a) NATO isn’t a rubber stamp for US policy, which again and again has disappointed Washington and b) a lot has happened since 2010.

After all Sweden is the other example of how NATO is an international defence pact and not simply the extension (rubber stamp) of US policy. If it’s hard for Sweden, it surely is for Ukraine.

Besides, in the next NATO summit we can observe if Sweden finally gets in and Ukraine gets the path to NATO. (When there is kind of cessation of hostilities)

Actually Putin’s weakness can change things.

Gender differences are trivial compared to the commonalities between men and women — Judaka

A good question then would be: What is left out when we dismiss both feminine and masculine traits of a human?

I think far too many human characters are defined as either masculine or feminine. Things like compassion, logical reasoning, basic feelings aren’t masculine or feminine.

According to Biden, Putin is losing in Iraq.

Clearly, there was a lack of will here, if not outright collusion with the mutineers. — SophistiCat

Surovikin was with Prigozhin in Syria and the two worked well together. Hence Surovikin is in jail. What is very likely true is that Prigozhin had at least people that understood him, which made him do his ”march” in the first place.

Then we shouldn’t forget that literally the vast majority of Russian army’s ground forces are engaged in Ukraine. For example, there are very few trioops on our border with Russia.

Putin’s purges are a natural outcome of the events. Needless to say how detrimental this whole episode is for the Russian military leadership, who should work as a team.

What is good for Ukrainians is that good generals are now out of the game and one of the most effective formations (Wagner) combat capability is now questionable.

Particularly puzzling is how it happened that Wagner was allowed to cross the border and capture a million+ city hosting Southern Military District headquarters — SophistiCat

Why would there be troops defending a city deep in Russia when Ukrainians are nowhere near Rostov? Air Defence unit perhaps could be found there, but they aren’t equipped to fight infantry. Thousands of Wagner mercenaries could take quite easily the Military HQ. Besides, immediately Prigozhin made it clear they wouldn’t interfere with the staff running the war in Ukraine. They didn’t start either to defend their buildings. Moscow was different.

Above all, this is an armed forces in a bad condition and not fully controlled. What comes to mind is Corazon Aquino’s Phillipines (1986-1992) where there were multiple military coups against her Presidency and how the military was punished for these: they weren’t. Hence not punishing mutinies or coups simply shows the leadership hasn’t got firm control over it’s armed forces. Once when a strong President was elected, Fidel Ramos, the former armed forces commander, the coups/mutinies stopped.

Of course Russia is different, but what Putin has done is that he has created competing militaries in the system: the Army, the National Guard etc. and then even private mercenary formations like Wagner (which isn’t the only one). and let’s not forget that Wagner has worked closely with the GRU and other intelligence services. Fine if it works, but when it doesn’t /hasn’t, Putin is in the terrible fix he is now in. And he can blame himself for all of this.

So now that the coup is ended, Wagner effectively disbanded, — boethius

Has it disbanded?

(the Guardian) The Wagner group appeared to be continuing some of its operations on Monday, with recruitment centres open and fighters returning to their bases

There's zero evidence that Prigozhin has any backers in any position of power at all — boethius

So why on Earth the weak timid response then from Putin and the references to 1917 and civil war? How many Russian politicians backed Putin when Wagner was marching toward Moscow? I myself don’t know that, so it’s an important question.

You seem to have the attitude of ”Everything is fine, there’s nothing to see, the Russian leadership has everything in control” as it obviously hasn’t got everything in control. Then when Wagner is truly disbanded and Prigozhin dead or in jail, then things are ”under control”.

And if the objective of Prigozhin was to capture the military leadeship (as WSJ writes), it is absolutely hilarious to deny that this wasn’t a coup attempt, because they weren’t going for Putin. Such mutiny is more dangerous than just soldiers protesting and not following orders (which usually defines a mutiny).

:100: :up:

Let’s think what a mutiny is: simply a force that disobeys orders or won’t follow orders is basically a mutiny. Seizing the military HQ in Rostov, shooting down helicopters and advancing towards the capital is a bit more than just than a mutiny.

Now the Wagner coup might have been planned as in 1991 that the leader isn’t deposed (just stays at his summer place), hence it might have been a surprise for Prigozhin how Putin responded. Now Putin is thanking the (loyal) troops of succeeding in avoiding a civil war. A moment of silence was given to the killied helicopter pilots.

CSIS doesn't seem to think his intention was a coup. — Tzeentch

Katrina Doxsee isn’t CSIS. And then everything said before and after doesn’t at all give your impression.

And then there is whar Putin has said about this. It was Putin that referred this to 1917.

1957, 1991, …1825?

In other words, there seems to be a hierarchy of accountability in societies based on factors such as wealth, class, culture, etc. that feeds into larger issues surrounding how agency is treated. — schopenhauer1

And naturally of ownership and staus in the community. For starters, people behave differently to things and propertty if they a) own it, b) if they rent it or c) if it’s public property. Or if it’s not their property, do they know whose property it is.

Then come crucial things like do you feel part of the community or is the ”community” just rich assholes who hate you.

This is just pure delusion. 25 000 troops without any supply lines or airforce or satellite intelligence and so on, are not going to defeat a million troops with supply lines and all the hardware and gadgets. — boethius

Well, Yeltsin needed only to climb on an IFV and give a speech. And then all those milloin of troops (then, actually million) and their official leaders couldn’t do anything.

The most dangerous issue for Putin was the reaction of the man in the street in Rostov applauding the Wagner troops. Yet Prigozhin found himself alone, so he naturally goes with the whimsical ludicrous lie of this just being a ”protest”.

Maybe the action was genuine, and Prigozhin hadn't anticipated that his protest against the top brass would be interpreted as an attempt at a coup. — Tzeentch

Yeah, maybe shooting down helicopters is just a form of protest.

After the war, Western Europe embraced US leadership, economic support, and military presence — yebiga

Exactly: the countries embraced it.

But those who fell under Russian rule didn’t, as is obvious.

If you have problems in seeing the obvious difference, it’s your problem. The only one embracing Russia’s military presence is a Belarussian dictator who needs those troops to hold on to power.

My guess is that Putin fled to Belarus, — unenlightened

It’s been said that Putin fled to St Petersburgh. Of course it’s a rumour. History will be written later.

What could Prigozhin/Wagner hope to accomplish, though? Force change — jorndoe

Humiliate those in power, I guess. The establishment was already trying to contain him and Wagner. And do notice the enthusiastic response he got in Rostov. The deal he got shows how weak Putin’s hand was: Putin might have been worried about forces joining Prigozhin. Not so remote possibility.

he has been building his brand for a long time. Or have you seen antbody else from the Russian leaders at the front, talking next to his fallen men about the casualties or wanting more ammo for his men?

Of course, he is ”loyal” to czar Putin. But his intentions should be clear…when he just wants to ”talk” to the military leadership.

Lol, wasn’t Trump?

Prigozhin can now tell the truth, like there was no genocide against Russians in Donbas by Nazi Ukrainians etc. If he survives, he can perhaps be the replacement for Putin. What better thing for future leader of Russia to have his own private army for starters.

I don't see what troops would have attacked Rostov — unenlightened

Wagner troops occupied a HQ in Rostov. Hence if forces would have been deployed against the Wagner forces, the likely place of combat would have been Rostov. Now the Wagnerites withdrew from there (with applauding civilians on the streets).

There already seems to have taken place one brief incident in Voronez before the deal was struck. Hence this was a very close call.

An unstoppable coup that suddenly stops, a civil war averted without hardly a shot fired - it looks like an elaborate theatre, but for what audience? and with what intention?

What next, pundits? — unenlightened

The coup was stoppable…but likely would have ruined Rostov and weakened Russia internally even more. Putin and his chef avoided that debacle, but this showed the internal weakness of Russia.

Basically now coup plots are possible… when people depicted as traitors can just return to their barracks and the leader can go to a friendly neighbour country.

This is the beginning of the end for Putin, I’d say.

Now the role of the Wagner group is really akward. Their usefullness is quite questionable.

Actually Putin referred to 1917 in his speech, so he is already using the dolchstoss argument.

Besides, Putin has now the perfect ”Dolchstoss” reason just why the war in Ukraine went bad. He can forget now Ukraine. Internal security is more important.

Russia is more closer to civil war and break up than ever. And even if Putin can contain the situation, the unstability of Russia should be evident to all.

Whatever the outcome of this, there goes any chance of a peace deal. — RogueAI

Quite the opposite. Russia can sign peace, just as made peace with Japan (during the Russo-Japanese war), with Germany (WW1) or Poland (Polish-Soviet war).

Why is it so hard to understand that this one of those disastrous wars Russia has started that has lead to internal strife and humiliation? Putin has been a disaster for Russia.

This is an important question perhaps only in sports. Otherwise the discourse reeks to a media frenzy, politics and at worst transphobia.

Testosterone is performance enhancing for female athletes. And of course that male athletes are stronger, quicker than female athletes. And notice other subtle things what the records show: look at how many World records are from the 1980's. With men, there's one. With women, there's four. In the 1980s growth hormones and and anabolic steroids, which mimic testosterone, were widely used and only later more tighter control were brought in.

Current womens world records in track & field:

100 10.49 Florence Griffith Joyner (US) Indianapolis, Indiana 7/16/88
200 21.34 Florence Griffith Joyner (US) Seoul, South Korea 9/29/88
300+ 34.41 Shaunae Miller-Uibo (Bahamas) Ostrava, Czech Republic 6/20/19
400 47.60 Marita Koch (East Germany) Canberra, Australia 10/06/85
600+ 1:21.77 Caster Semenya (South Africa) Berlin, Germany 8/27/17
800 1:53.28 Jarmila Kratochvílová (Czechoslovakia) Munich, Germany 7/26/83
1000 2:28.98 Svetlana Masterkova (Russia) Brussels, Belgium 8/23/96
1500 3:50.07 Genzebe Dibaba (Ethiopia) Fontvieille, Monaco 7/17/15
3:49.11p Faith Kipyegon (Kenya) Florence, Italy 6/02/23
Mile 4:12.33 Sifan Hassan (Netherlands) Fontvieille, Monaco 7/12/19
2000 5:21.56 Francine Niyonsaba (Burundi) Zagreb, Croatia 9/14/21
Steeple 8:44.32 Beatrice Chepkoech (Kenya) Fontvieille, Monaco 7/20/18
3000 8:06.11 Junxia Wang (China) Beijing, China 9/13/93

Current mens world records in track & field:

100 9.58 Usain Bolt (Jamaica) Berlin, Germany 8/16/09
150+ 14.35 Usain Bolt (Jamaica) Manchester, England 5/17/09
200 19.19 Usain Bolt (Jamaica) Berlin, Germany 8/20/09
300+ 30.81 Wayde van Niekerk (South Africa) Ostrava, Czechia 6/28/17
400 43.03 Wayde van Niekerk (South Africa) Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 8/14/16
600+ 1:12.81 Johnny Gray (US) Santa Monica, California 5/24/86
800 1:40.91 David Rudisha (Kenya) London, England 8/09/12
1000 2:11.96 Noah Ngeny (Kenya) Rieti, Italy 9/05/99
1500 3:26.00 Hicham El Guerrouj (Morocco) Rome, Italy 7/14/98
Mile 3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj (Morocco) Rome, Italy 7/07/99
2000 4:44.79 Hicham El Guerrouj (Morocco) Berlin, Germany 9/07/99
Steeple 7:53.63 Saïf Shaheen (Qatar) Brussels, Belgium 9/03/04
7:52.11p Lamecha Girma (Ethiopia) Paris, France 6/09/23
2000 Steeple+ 5:10.86 Mahiedine Mekhissi (France) Reims, France 6/30/10
3000 7:20.67 Daniel Komen (Kenya) Rieti, Italy 9/01/96

And shouldn't a holiday be based on our greatest triumphs, and not a reminder of our worst failings? — TiredThinker

Isn't overcoming your worst failings one of your greatest triumphs?

It's not that your celebrating your existing failings, like an "Holiday for income inequality" would be. Besides, what's so bad about self-flagellation?


(Of course the Capirotes of these Italian peninents would get the wrong message in the US)

Let's talk about women's bathrooms: — Hanover

Some would view this start of the OP the evidence of all things wrotten in our American(Western) culture. This is what holds interest in a Philosophy Forum in the 21st Century.

Ah, the decandence of our times, this joyful enjoyable decadence. :razz:

Yes, The idea of the Russian nation is very different from let's say the US.

And I think many Americans or Westerners simply don't understand this. They just assume that Russia is in many ways just like their own country.

Note that these countries represent roughly one-third of the people on earth. — yebiga

The British have fought with a lot more people of the World than Americans, actually. So the I guess the US isn't yet the baddest of them all. Leave that to the English. At least historically. :smirk:

We have become what the USSR was, — yebiga

You'll be there when the US invades a NATO country that is trying to leave NATO.

But for the while, the US isn't there yet.

Thus we are not witnessing an "NATO-US Conflict with Russia over Ukraine" what we are really witnessing is the opening gambit of an unprovoked Russian Imperialist expansion. — yebiga

Exactly.

The real problem here is that Russia has no other identity as a state than an imperial one.

Russia is not a nation state. And it fears, or it's leadership fears, that it cannot have any other identity than the imperial one, that it has to be tightly centralized or otherwise it would somehow face utter doom. If it eases with the centralized control, it will break up. If it would be more multicultural or give more autonomy to the regions, it would break up. Or so the Russian thinking of the present elite goes. Hence Russia totally failed in creating a Russian version of the British Commonwealth with CIS. Hence now tries to use military might.

And what is worse is that the leader of Russia thinks that the dissolution of the Empire, when the Soviet Union collapsed, is somehow repairable. That the whole collapse was an unfortunate mistake, something totally repairable and recoverable. Hence the talk about the "artificiality" of Ukraine as a nation. And now the talk of "Novorossiya" and how Crimea is part of Russia, something quite similar to 19th Century Imperialism.

This just makes Russia walk steadfastly towards a disaster. Just as the supporters of the last Czar argued that the solution was for the Czar to hold on to his power given by divine right and not give one inch to the heretic liberal "Western" reforms, because autocracy of the Czar made the Russia Empire so great, so are the same movements now restarted and preach of the greatness of Russia.

... but we agree that the goal here is not "Ukraine winning" in any military sense. — boethius

The unfortunate view that some leaders have is that the war goal is about "Ukraine not losing", but not "Russia losing". And before someone comments that Russia losing is absurd as if that would mean Ukrainian tanks in the Red Square, I would again refer to history: Russia losing like in the Russo-Japanese war, the Polish-Soviet war or in the first Chechen war. Or in WW1.

Though, if Kyiv had nuclear weaponry at its disposal, then the Kremlin would have to rethink. — jorndoe

Something that the Ukrainians can be bitter about.