True but there is a difference with medical procedures and deciding the fate of a large group of people. Just imagine this scenario for a second. I’m an American, and let’s say I have the power to decide the fate of 1 billion people. Also imagine my social/political beliefs as well as religious beliefs are called into account.

I think more often than not people with this much power make decisions based on personal prejudices not objective reasoning or some utilitarian ideal.

Perhaps you should have thought out this scenario more. What thing could make such a contingency? You can make the decision to take out 1 billion in India alone and the world will still suffer overpopulation.

I have so many questions but if I had to absolutely make a decision I would step down. I couldn’t decide the fate of human beings on that platform on that magnitude. Morally I would be distraught to know I sentenced a billion people.

“So the hospital would only have black doctors available? Sounds like a racist hospital to me.”

Did you smoke hashish before you wrote that?

I said in the previous post:

“Yes and no. Giving the patient what they want in this instance would go against the Hippocratic oath especially if there aren't any available doctors. However we would give the patient the option to leave AMA (Against Medical Advice) usually this advice is accompanies with telling the patient if they do not get the recommended treatment (in this case surgery) they will die.”

As I stated in the bold, when it comes to saving one’s life, hospitals will accompany only so much. If you’re dying or needed a life saving procedure and you’re asking something as ridiculous as the following:

“What if a patient was admitted into your hospital and said that they didn't want any black doctors operating on them? Would it be right to refuse the patient service and kick them out of your hospital? Would you give them what they want?”
— Harry Hindu

If you’re about to die or needed a serious procedure most hospitals will not accommodate a racist especially if in fact there are no other available specialists. If you value your racial prejudice more than your life hospitals will definitely make you sign a waiver against medical advice if you choose to leave.

That is like someone saying don’t give me blood from a Latino if I need a blood transfusion. Heck you might as well not get blood at all. It has nothing to do with a hospitals racism, it has something to do with something that is insignificant.

Now, a hospital may offer you a different surgeon to perform but it also depends on the doctors that work at said facility. I’m not going to assume you’re of ethnic Indian origin but I just find the question quite odd coming from someone with Hindu being the last name, after a faith in a country of people who had to endure White European colonialism.

No. The superiority mindset comes from the idea that in comparing one’s technologies against another’s, and by determining such technologies to be “out dated” leads to one form of a supremacist model. Another comes in the form of the supremacist model, perceiving one’s skin pigmentation to be a determinate of social worthiness.

Only when the Lakers lose

Gotcha...Yeah this happens a lot where I work

You seem to be qualified to be able to give an adequate defense of psychiatry as you have seen first-hand patients becoming stable through medication management from psychiatrists. — Noah Te Stroete

Thanks. There is literally no difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist except that one goes to medical school and the other one doesn't. One is research based, and the other deals with medicine. One can write scripts, the other one doesn't. I just don't understand what the issue is here.

Google Argument from Authority. — Galuchat

I know what it is, and your point?

Finally! Thanks for admitting that.
It feels like I'm becoming an authority on pulling teeth. But just for the record: I'm not a qualified dentist. — Galuchat

So what was your point in all this?

I'm not saying I'm an authority of psychiatric medicine because again, like I said, I'm not a medical doctor. If you want my academic as well as professional opinion on behavioral disorders and their causes and treatment, I can give my professional opinion. If YOU wanted me to diagnose you, I couldn't make a professional opinion online because we aren't face to face. Sure I can make a general assessment but it would only be general and not something professional.

But as far as authority is concerned of course I have no authority in psychiatry I'm not arguing that but this is not how this thread developed.

We use the same Diagnostic Statistical Manual. Based on the axis models in the DSM I can make assessments on behavioral disorders and in fact know common medications that are used to treat mental disorders. I literally speak with doctors all the time and they literally always ask me recommendations on the best medications that I recommend (for example whether someone who has recurring panic attacks ought to be given lorazepam commonly known as Ativan, or Zyprexa).

You’re either a troll or a dolt or both. — Noah Te Stroete

I'm starting to get that feeling. Work is very slow right now and I'm literally at work giving this the time of day.

APA? — Galuchat

American Psychological Association

To help the thread out it would behoove the author of the original post to understand the difference between psychiatrists and psychologists. For one, psychiatrists are medical doctors that can prescribe medication, and use medication management for psychiatric treatment. Psychologists primarily focus on psychotherapy to treat emotional/mental suffering in patients using behavioral intervention. There are psychiatrists that offer both behavioral therapy along with medication management, but it just depends on the state just as there are some states that allow psychologists to prescribe medication, New Mexico being one of the U.S. states that allow this.

Professionally I deal with psychiatric patients and yes I make assessments based on the DSM-V categories and professionally I have the authority to hold patients based on whether they have homicidal or suicidal tendencies. My research background plus being a member of the APA very much makes me an authority. As far as shedding light on atypical behaviors as per expressed in the DSM-V versus the International Classification of Diseases again, psychiatrists use ICD-10 as well as DSM but the thing is as far as what I do professionally I mainly make assessments by using DSM however ICD codes and DSM codes are basically the same.

I know in the UK they primarily use ICD-10 as opposed to DSM-V.....

So, you don't "professionally work in the psychiatric field". — Galuchat

Yes, I do actually....I literally work in the emergency room which has a behavioral unit.

In fact, according to this post, you have a doctorate in Clinical Psychology, but work "professionally as a Social Worker", because you are not licensed to practise Clinical Psychology in your State. — Galuchat

This is true.

No wonder you can't shed any light on the practise of psychiatry. That's fine, as long as we are all clear on the point that you cannot be considered an authority on Psychiatry. — Galuchat

Because Psychiatrists are medical doctors and I'm a psychologist as per my education, although not currently practicing nor making attempts to gain licensure, I am still at least academically qualified to shed light on mental disorders.

If women are less likely to engage in dangerous behavior, then doesn't that make them better rather than men at being in government positions? — Wallows

No.

First off I am participating in several other threads so whatever you said in quotes was pushed way down the line as I had 20 other responses. Two, I'm not a practicing psychiatrist. Although I have my doctorate, I'm not a medical doctor and although we use the DSM-V in much of our assessments we do not prescribe medication at least here in the state of California. Three, I work for a living so I'm in and out of this place. Four, to reiterate point two, I don't do private practice, as I'm a clinician and work in a hospital setting and deal with a different demographic.

I don't disagree with the wisdom Bittler Crank has bestowed us; but, how do you argue with the fact that women are more reluctant than men to engage in promiscuous activity? — Wallows

Well, if you're implying there is some inherent inclination to avoid "promiscuous" criminal activity I think there are environmental factors that are influential but not necessarily biological. But I don't think this makes women superior.

Yes, all of that. — Wallows

I think Bitter Crank offered you the best explanation....

Men are more likely to engage in state-prohibited behavior than women are, and society tends to be more concerned about the kind of violations that men engage in than what women engage in.

There are class and race issues here too. Poor black men are at the bottom of the opportunity pool, more often than not. The easiest way for poor black men to find opportunity is through crime. In poor white societies, poor white men also resort to crime to find opportunity.

Poor women engage in crime too, but are less likely to engage in crime that is intensively policed. — Bitter Crank

Careful. You might start something even more ugly than the OP. :wink: — Noah Te Stroete

I just read the sequence of the discussion

Therefore, for the sake of talking about society or culturally, does that fact that prison populations are predominantly male mean or imply that females are socially superior to males? — Wallows

Superior in what sense? Impulse control? Less inclined to use drugs?

What if a patient was admitted into your hospital and said that they didn't want any black doctors operating on them? Would it be right to refuse the patient service and kick them out of your hospital? Would you give them what they want? — Harry Hindu

Yes and no. Giving the patient what they want in this instance would go against the Hippocratic oath especially if there aren't any available doctors. However we would give the patient the option to leave AMA (Against Medical Advice) usually this advice is accompanies with telling the patient if they do not get the recommended treatment (in this case surgery) they will die.

What is the point of that question? You could play that game with any profession: what is a lumberjack without their cutting down of trees, what is Chris Froome without his bicycle, or Serena Williams without her racquet?

What psychiatrists offer to society is that they can eliminate or mitigate the suffering of many people who suffer chronic mental anguish, and in some cases cure them for good.

That psychiatry has been used for terrible things in the past is not in dispute. But so has teaching - just read Nicholas Nickleby, David Copperfield or Tom Brown's Schooldays. Yet we don't blame today's teachers for the sins committed by teachers past. So has nursing, with many nurses involved in forced adoptions from unmarried mothers. But we don't blame today's nurses for that. — andrewk

Great post!

Then I guess what I’m trying to get at is that the idea of ‘Country’ is arbitrary. — Brett

Elaborate, how?

If you crossed the border from Columbia to Venuezeula would you notice any difference in culture? — Brett

When I mention borders I was merely talking about the separation of countries ergo the border of Southern California is Mexico which is a different country with a different culture. I was just merely saying that although technically Canada, Mexico, U.S., Central America are all defined as North Americans separated by borders, culturally we are different.

For example, would someone in Belize know what it's like to eat a deep dish pizza in Chicago even though they've never been there? No.

Would someone from Brazil know what its like to eat a "Dodger Dog?" Nope.

Yes we're all American but Dodger Dogs and Deep Dish pizzas are a part of a culture in the United States.

I’m not sure that the commonality you mean really exists as it once did, in any country, even the US. — Brett

Sure it does. I see it in those who serve the military as well as people who are citizens. You don't have to consciously have this mindset that everyone must be conscious of being of the same culture it is a subconscious mental state. Like, if I travel to New York, people in let's say Brooklyn, know that I don't belong there (in the sense that I wasn't born there). From my "Californian accent" to the style of dress, and the way I word things. Sure they can understand me cause I speak English but the culture of New Yorkers is different than the culture of Californians.

I think the idea of a unified culture happens when someone from the outside perhaps is either threatening our way of life, or we engage in someone of a different country who is not accustomed to being North American. But the idea that people of a given country must consciously think of being unified is a misnomer. For U.S. citizens I don't think nobody goes around thinking about national unity on a day to day basis unless fear mongering happens where someone believes their way of life is threatened.

If you crossed the border from Columbia to Venezuelan would you notice any difference in culture? — Brett

Since I'm neither Colombian (I think you meant to spell it like this) nor Venezuelan, I wouldn't be able to tell, but since I know dialects exist I think the only difference I could possible tell between the two Latin American countries are perhaps the dialect of words they use maybe? Other than that I wouldn't know.

Thinking about the way the idea of ‘Country’ is developing it seems very problematical to define it by culture. So I was thinking if countries become more multicultural, multicultural itself isn’t an identifiable culture, it’s too amorphous for people to identify with, and so in a circular way we come back to my beginning which was the idea of borders. — Brett

Which is why I said the concept of culture when looking at the United States for example, is complex because culture is not static, rather it can become fluid. Going back to my earlier:

I am African-American.

My ancestry is of African origin yet my national origin of existence is America.

Although nationally and culturally I am American by the macro-level understanding, I also identify with African culture as it relates to African descendants in America.

One may ask what does that mean?

Well it means that I have a relationship with others of my demographic who look like me and engage in the same collective customs as I do that relates to those of my demographic. I carry on a social as well as historical relationship not just by me existing as an African-American, but to experience it. then one may further ask "how do you identify with American culture?

To make the distinction one must understand there is a cultural difference between United States American, and Canadian American, as well as members of the Latin Central and South Americas. Although by reason of linguistic technicality, we are all Americans I do not identify with Canadians and Central and South Americans only except by borderlines. With that being said it does go back to geography as you put it. But culture as how I identify myself does not stop at my demographic and nationality. I also share in the culture of being a student, a healthcare worker, a medical professional, a gamer, an online forum chat member. All of these things which many people of different ethnic and national origins partake in (which is the beauty of humanity!).

Then going further one may ask "what is it to be an American?"

I would gladly point out that by being a United States citizen and to partake in that culture is simply defined by the conglomerate cultures that exist in the United States who share a common language, goal, and principles. Although ethnically we have our distinct ethnic as well as religious/non-religious traditions we are still unified under the common cultural belief in the U.S. mantra of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Breaking that down further our cultures become distinct based on our geographical location within the U.S. A New Yorker has a different culture and mannerism than someone from Idaho, and the same can be said of someone from California versus someone from Florida.

As usual what you mean is I don’t go along with your thinking. Why shut down the conversation? If everything is so cut and dry then why bother taking part in a discussion?

What don’t I get? — Brett

I gave you my explanation which was quite clear, to which you claimed that it wasn't, and that it sounded circular, well, I disagree. Considering that the idea of circular in my mind seems confusing and non-distinct, I had to re-read previous posts of mine to come to the conclusion that the explanation was quite clear. So it would appear that the confusion is merely left for you to clear up. I clearly made the distinction between country and culture and have defined both. The author of the OP got it, why didn't you?

Well, that wasn't all in the same week! It took 25 years to stumble on the last one who was really quite good.

You are supposed to do most of the talking. Only you, after all, know just how fucked up your family life was, the horrible things that happened in the cradle, and so on. The therapist is there as a guide, a mirror, and an echo chamber, in whom you see and hear yourself, and come to understand just how horribly wrong it all went.

Then, after you have finally collapsed in a paroxysm of weeping, wailing, rending your polyester double knit shirt and sprinkling the ash tray's cigarette butts on your head, have really used that box of Kleenex, you're reading for Phase II, where the silent therapist who listened to you for 3 years comes to life and instructs you in detail in how to get your shit reorganized, and to move on to finally become a whole, integrated, and somewhat satisfactory person. That may take another 5 years. — Bitter Crank

I like you

Your ability to put words together is interesting enough for me to say, you ought to write a book one day.

And you're still crazy as shit, so I guess I'll have to concede the point that psychiatrists and psychologists are useless. Well played sir. — Hanover

I hope this was sarcasm and I hope there was a method to this madness. I take offense at someone who pokes fun at someone's mental health whether they are going through some form of mental abnormality or not.

I thought to myself that was an astute observation I just made about myself as I sat there, further self-diagnosing and self-treating. Sort of like I'm doing now. — Hanover

Great self-reflection! but it doesn't change the fact that you may not have gotten down to the root cause as to why you were there in the first place, and why you were there is indicative that there exist something that required objective mitigation through therapeutic means.

This conversation really isn't one that fits within the purview of philosophy as far as I can tell. Because psychology is a scientific discipline, the value of psychiatric treatment is an empirical question, meaning we can look at the data to determine if the various treatments are effective. That is, if we can show statistically that Xanax offers relief from anxiety, then it simply does, regardless of whether that causes you to ponder "what really is normal" and the moral implications of normalizing normal and other naval gazing activity. — Hanover

This doesn't change the fact that psychology being a branch from philosophy, provides value through the structural reasoning that many researchers and professionals like myself use as a model to understand the foundation of the human mind.

Do you believe there to be some deep underlined psychological issues he maybe having?

Interesting. I understand all cases are not created equal, but it seems your friend (and correct me if I'm wrong) has some internal issues maybe he hasn't come to peace with, and that maybe that internalized anger is pent up and alcohol is the release. Going back to what I was saying in another thread, sometimes people do not have the ability to cope with stress nor the structure to deal with daily tumultuous stimuli.

Out of curiosity have you suggested that he get help?

Ok whatever you say. I don't get you with these one lined sentences. If you don't like the answer so be it but I cannot do more beyond something like what you're saying.

Free speech should have speech consequences, in my opinion. — Terrapin Station

Really?

Loud bars encourage heavier fasting drinking -- that's why most bars tend to be pretty noisy. — Bitter Crank

I was going to say environment can actually play a role in behavior while intoxicated (think of a bowling alley with a bunch of other drunk people yelling).

My husband is what you would call a ‘happy drunk’ - as a teacher he spends much of his working life keeping his cheerful, happy-go-lucky side in check. With a few drinks in him, he is extremely playful and spontaneous. On the other hand, I have a strong self-edit function (to the point where I’d often not speak), so I tend to have verbal diarrhoea when drunk, and also fall asleep very easily. — Possibility

I tend to be the giving type. If you're buying beer at a counter I may see that and pay it for you. Or I'm the playful type like joking. More importantly when I get plastered I'm more so wanting to sleep so usually I tap out early.

Well, as someone who deals with this professionally all the time I will say that when the organizational thought center i.e. the frontal lobe is suppressed and all the inhibitions go away, the suppressed thoughts and behaviors come out. I don't know him so I don't think none of us can make a correct assessment even with your story considering that your emphasis on things could be blown out of proportion or you could be leaving out some stuff. After all, there are functional alcoholics that do sneaky stuff even when you're not aware that they are doing sneaky stuff (like sneaking flasks and popping mints etc).

From what it sounds like, he seems to have poor impulse control, lack of control of his limitations upon alcohol consumption. Although as you say he may not be an alcoholic, if he is over consuming to the point of inebriation, he may be showing you signs of alcoholism. I mean, there is nothing wrong getting drunk but you ought to be just cautious and perhaps maybe you two need to slow it down. You've been on 8 dates with him and he is already your boyfriend so it already sounds like you two are moving quite fast already.

What I could never understand which I've brought up earlier, is that how is speaking out against someone who makes a racist comment on social media and who works at a public facility that services the public wronged if they lose their job (or get in serious trouble)? Taking the New Zealand shooter as an example he clearly made inflammatory comments on social media (I believe in a discussion forum), and his actions later on came into fruition. How are the words of someone who holds racist views not considered inflammatory comparable to the New Zealand shooter?

Sure there is no guarantee that one will contribute to the other but if we're talking about likelihood to commit a crime and one who is exhibiting poor impulse control, it would seem likely someone is more prone to commit a violent act. That being such the case how is reprimanding such a person wrong?

I expected more sense than that. — I like sushi

Um, ok