I also have examples of 'warnings' or 'proposed consequences,' If I interfered. I was given a letter by my own union to cross a picket line by office staff on strike at the school I worked in, I DID NOT, nor ever will cross a picket line, no matter what shit letter I was given. It became regional policy within our school system, that a teacher should not physically break up a fight between pupils for fear of getting accused of assaulting the pupils involved. I HAVE ALWAYS, physically broken up any fight I have came across between pupils. I would never stand by and watch pupils hurt each other, damn the consequences, and so on..... — universeness

And in the US, liberty meant that is your decision. No one could force you to do that and no one could prevent you from doing that. Destroying that liberty is to become as Nazi Germany where authority decided what people would and would not do. The consequences of destroying our liberty are social destruction and this pushes us to the controversy of our right to carry guns. Our problem is we have serious social problems that make it unsafe to allow individuals to own guns. And that brings us back to education. In ancient Athens, education was lifelong and about citizenship. If we do not recapture that connection between liberty and education, we are doomed.

I am a socialist/humanist. I believe that the means of production, distribution and exchange of any significant size should be owned by the people, for the people and not as a means of generating profit for the rich or those who aspire to become such. I would also not allow any private citizen to own land. Technology which assists the means of production distribution and exchange must also benefit all people and not just the very few. I advocate for getting rid of money as the main controller of exchange. The state must serve the people and support family as well as family supporting each other. — universeness

I do not agree with that paragraph. I am in favor of private ownership and control. However, not laissez-faire economics. A policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering. have been mentally lazy and ignored all the issues of economics and we are not well-informed voters.

I am not trivialising the problems you raise in your quote above but it's our collective responsibility to ensure that any automated system improves the lives and personal security of people and does not reduce it in any way. I would not blame technology for people ignoring the forced removal of their neighbours (due to the fact they were Jewish or based on any other such unacceptable reasoning). I would blame the people who use technology for such purposes. Guns don't kill people, people kill people but it's still really dumb to arm your citizens in the way they do in the USA. — universeness

Oh, what a delicious argument you opened. I think if you were aware of how technology has changed our expectations and our values and how we think you would see the social change more clearly. This subject is so complex I don't know where to begin. Perhaps a thread about how technology has changed our lives and the input of many people would be helpful.

The receptionist was someone who served everyone, her employer and the public. That is a frame of mind. That is not what someone is thinking when answering the phone today. What rules our thinking is policy and organization. The job of answering the phone has been narrowly defined and the person answering that phone knows nothing except the correct connection that needs to be made and the person who answers the phone has no power but reacts like a programmed switch. If the person answering the phone steps beyond the definition of the job, s/he will be reprimanded. The control is at the top not with the individual. This is why I object to none of us having private property and control. I fear nothing worse than that control from the top. As Tocqueville said our democracy would be a despot and everything is fine as long as everyone appreciates the decisions from the top. Have you read Tocqueville's book "Democracy in America" written around 1830? As a teacher that might be the most important book, you could offer your students if they are old enough. Living under the decisions made at the top may not be the way to go. Like Locke said about the king/father, that would be fine if like the parent the king worked for the child to become independent.

The situation you describe above is because you live under a horrible, capitalist, free market economy (as do I), where private landlords can almost do as they like. If you had a lot more money, you would not have to deal with these 'basic survival' issues you currently have to deal with. Is that how people should be forced to live? Completely controlled by how much money you can access? It's other humans that force this way of life and they are actually very few in number, globally.
They need to be 'overthrown,' permanently!
A newlywed couple or a child reaching the age of 18, should be provided with good quality accommodation, free of charge, as a human right from cradle to grave. Competitive fighting pits, such as Craig's list should not be able to exist. — universeness

Another delicious disagreement. I think we need to rethink economics but even more important is education for good character and good moral judgment. Only a police state controls everything. Liberty begins with governing oneself and independent thinking. I am old school. Business is done eyeball to eyeball and depends on our good judgment of character and more. If I know you and can deal with you face to face now and in the future, I will hold you accountable for keeping your word and under that condition you may be more concerned about what I think of you and how I will react if you are not a good person. Only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and this means managing life on a social/cultural level, not depending on the despot to take care of us.

I do not think we should provide for individuals without good cause because then we have people with weak character, doomed to be dependent on others. It is the parent's responsibility to raise children to become independent but they can not do this alone. The parent's efforts must be supported by the school system and youth programs and how about good media all focusing on a good culture and human dignity?

Hum, I have been listening to lectures about ancient Greek ideas on character and morals. How could you describe your character? Does your character allow you to do what is wrong?

To kill one's self or not is partly intellectual and partly emotional. I don't think the decision can be reduced to a purely rational one. Everything you mentioned has a moral weight and that involves feelings. I am willing to die for some things but not others and that is because of the moral weight or the factors involved in the decision.

I can only feel anger inside at such situations. There should be adequate social services available at a local level to help people effectively and fully in such circumstances. You should be fully supported in your efforts to assist this man and if a landlord threatens you with eviction, then that landlord should not be treated kindly for such an act. — universeness

Thank you so much.

'Evil thrives most when good people do nothing.' — universeness

Thank you thank you! That is the very meaning of our liberty!

What you said is very important to me. I have offended a friend who is a Christain and could have helped him but instead was totally self-centered and told me if I got evicted for breaking the rules it would be my fault for making that decision. I don't think she gets the moral decision and what you said about evil. Time and again I have seen evil take hold because people would not stand together to oppose it. We are going in the wrong direction by making it illegal to help others. Not even mothers dare help their grown children if they are doing drugs, without fear of eviction. Can you imagine! Laws that prevent family from helping family, And then we turn around and blame gays for ruining family values. It is not the gays ruining family values. It is education for a technological society and the values of that society, which turn to dependency on the state instead of dependency on family and each other. Does that make sense? Can you see that?

:lol: "Give me liberty or give me death." I am adding that to give some continuity to what we were talking about. Many people are not happy with social changes such as replacing the old-fashioned receptionist with recordings and all the specialization that makes doing business very complicated. And having to call 3 or 5 different offices to find the right person for the job is not efficient! We want the receptionist who knew everything and saw it as her job to find the department we need to speak with. The receptionist did all the work and we could depend on her to get us the information or whatever else we needed. That specialization is new. In the past we were generalists and the receptionist knew more than the man at the top because she thought it was her job to know the organization and how to help people. Phone trees are hell. They are impersonal and force us to be submissive to technology and that is right next to ignoring our Jewish neighbors are being taken away. I grew up with the notion we answer to God, not human authority.

Right now someone claiming to have a bedroom for rent is wanting us to complete an application and send money, before we even see the bedroom. :gasp: We are texting and I made it clear, that we do business face to face and see the bedroom or we don't do business. Craig's list is known for scams and I will not bend on meeting people face to face.

Food for thought:

For the first time in world history there are more people on the planet over age 65 than under five.

That will have profound implications for the trajectory of human population and thus of human civilization. — Chisholm

I think you are correct. When the people who need our care are proficient at making their needs known and they vote on how we meet the needs of others, that could have a profound effect on civilization.

Also we may become wiser. Young people remember facts. Older people begin to understand the meaning of those facts and are better at grasping complex concepts. Unfortunately, the benefit may not last and many older people experience a mental decline and for physical and mental reasons may require more help and be less useful.

I hope we rethink many things, such as what qualifies a person to do a job. Merit hiring is useful for some things, but sometimes a person's experience and character are more important to a job. I think education for technology, and merit hiring, have been dehumanizing. I would like to see a shift to more humanitarian concerns and that might come with an aging population.

Indeed, so-called "chemical imbalances" (in the brain) can trigger unusual behavior including but not limited to suicide. However, they, to my reckoning, don't happen spontaneously - there's got to be an (external) cause (depression due to social/financial/romantic/etc. issues).

My interest is solely in suiciders with normal brains. — Agent Smith

I spoke with a man who specialized in counseling suicidal people and I asked him if that was not terribly depressing for him. In a very positive tone of voice, he said no because people are willing to die for something they would live for but they don't know how to get it. He saw his job as helping people figure out how to get what they are willing to die for. He sounded so positive I think he was pretty successful at doing that.

A death wish sometimes comes with grief. I think that is spontaneous but it can take a while to figure out how to end one's life.

Unfortunately, Soylent Green is a dystopian movie about what will happen to the world if our stewardship of it does not improve. The old guy chooses suicide as the planet is fast running out of food.
I agree with you that the Earth is beautiful and only a fool would choose to live life as a curse.
I also see the solar system as a blank canvas, just waiting for humans to leave the planetary nest and start to mould it and make it a place which is much more alive that it is now.
Looks like we will have a permanent moon base soon, once the Artemis1 rocket actually launches and starts the process. — universeness

I think I will need to watch Soylent Green. Right now I can't watch the Babylon 5 video. I have someone sleeping on my floor. He had a stroke a couple of months ago and isn't doing well. I am hoping a friend will be willing to take him in until he gets plugged into the assistance system and has a better place to stay than in his car. Because of his stroke, he is having trouble thinking things through. I am praying I do not get an eviction notice for helping him. And now can speak of morality?

If we do not want to become as Nasi Germany we really need to turn around and head in a different direction. I am hoping what I have to say fits in the theme of 'life sucks". Like really, democracy is supposed to be about raising the human potential and making life better. Our liberty is not a license to do anything we please, but it is the freedom to choose the right thing and that goes with responsibility for our choices.

I have been listening to an audio tape about the Greek legacy, the Greek gods, Homer, the philosophers, etc.. Homer makes it very clear it is our duty to help those who pass our way and need help. I think every civilization begins with a notion that we should do unto others as we would have them do to us.
Now if you had a stroke and could not remember how to get from point A to point B because you had no short-term memory and you could not think through how to meet your needs, how would you want to be treated? As I decent person what should you and I be doing?

I am quite sure your answer would be a good defense for why I should not be evicted for bringing a homeless person into my home but we live with laws that prevent us from doing the moral thing. How is this any different from Naxi Germany? The theme of this thread is life sucks, and I argue preventing people from doing the right thing, does lead to a very unpleasant reality. "I was just following orders".

Have you been watching the assisted suicide scene from the film Soylent green again?: — universeness

That was pretty good. Not exactly as I imagined a place for dying but close. It is sad because there was no family or friends with him. When my granddaughter and a cousin sat in a room with the cousin's dying sister, they reminisced about the past and cracked jokes, and laugh a lot. Judging by the heart monitor the dying woman was good with what was happening even though she could not communicate because of severe brain damage, but when her X came in and got all dramatic, it was obvious that was not what she wanted and the man was removed from the room.

I am not sure if there is life after death, but I suspect people who have crossed over have communicated with me.

On the subject of life sucks, I remember a cartoon from many years ago when I was struggling with depression. The cartoon was a man at the service counter in heaven. The caption read, "I don't like life. Do you have anything better to offer?" That helped me decide it was up to me to make the best out of life that I can because there is nothing better than life. And going from the video you posted, I don't think there are many planets as good as ours. With all our natural disasters, earthquakes, volcanoes etc. this is still a pretty nice planet. And I bet the people who are struggling to survive because of flooding or drought, are not thinking about killing themselves but are thinking about how they will survive.

My mother spends a lot of time reminiscing and talking about the past and events in her life. It's a nice way to spend time with family over drinks etc but the only trouble is that we know all the stories. Still, I think she is happy when reminiscing, worth living for, to remember! — universeness

That is what I mean. We are full of life and our lives are what is behind us. Old age is a time of coming to peace with our lives. Sooner or later just getting dressed for the day is a chore. I make myself go to the pool and swim laps and work out in the weight room because I know my life will get worse if I don't, but it also does not mean having the body I once had and being able to do the things I once did.

:lol: As I struggle to get out of a chair, I complain to the women over 90 about how hard it is, and they assure me it gets worse and they don't like what happens to us either. In general, we are surprised that we are not the people we once were and that just getting through the day is harder than we thought it would be. On the other hand, we are glad we don't have the stresses younger people have and we are glad to leave this planet because we don't like some of the changes. Mostly we miss the receptionist answering the phone and the custom of trying to please the person who made the call, instead of expecting the person to know the organization and the right number or the right person to speak with, and company policy that clearly is not about pleasing the person who needs the service. In many cases what we are dealing with is far more complex and inefficient than in the past and so bloody cold and impersonal or excessively cheerful and not professional! We really feel sorry for the young.

It is hard to imagine knowing we die and not preparing for it. I have been preparing for death for as long as I can remember. Just in case there is life after death I make an effort to know as much as I can. I do not want to be sitting at the great dining table in the sky with the great people of history and be totally ignorant. :sad: If there is nothing after this life, I have still enjoyed all the learning. My life is much richer than it would be if I had not put so much effort into learning.

So dont write them, talk them, maybe your sister would type what you talk about. — universeness

It is possible to use technology to type the spoken word, but I have always thought better when writing. If I can not write the thought then I am even less likely to speak it. Kind of the reverse of others who get writer's block and can not think of what to write. I used to spend my whole day, day after day with cups of coffee and at least a pack of cigarettes and writing. When I learned, that with a computer we can move whole paragraphs around, I bought one made before the internet. A young man programmed it for me so it did what I wanted it to do as easily as Windows.

Oh how I love those days. Caffeine and nicotine are the writer's friends. And being in the creative flow is better than good sex. :lol: I was also a night janitor and at night the world was mine. I loved being alone in buildings going through my routine and setting the scene for tomorrow's performance. I would so do that again if I could. Loosing my ability to do that, is for me, like it is for a star athlete who can no longer compete. Cleaning a bank is a good balance to writing. I eventually got a good partner and we would go to the Larry and Kath's restaurant for our break. Oh my, those were good days.

My sister and I were raised by a single mother when women did women's work for low pay and there were not many opportunities for them to do otherwise. When the hippie movement started our mother said she though she was always a hippie. Even though we had very little money, we always had enough to share with those less fortunate than us. Not until high school did I realize we were the poor, only our mother was intent on being middle class and our grandmother was a professional, a school teacher when school teachers didn't earn that much money. My sister had a career that means retiring with money and I am blown away that she has been so committed to resolving homeless problems. But that sure comes from our mother!

Oh man, it is time for me to pick up a client. At least I am going in a very good mood after thinking about the things that made me happy and why my sister and I are determined to help others.

I can only exemplify from my own experience, only you know if there is anyway to close the rifts in your own family. — universeness

You are working so hard to rescue me and that is sweet, but after caring for my mother with ALS and my grandmother with Alzheimer's disease it is a matter of honor to end my life when I still can. My son and daughter were teenagers when the family moved my grandmother into my home and they know they do not want to deal with caring for me. It is not a family disagreement but all of us knowing the unpleasant reality. Death is not the worst thing. We all die, Some Buddhists think of death daily as an intentional preparation for death.

If I had a million dollars I would create a space for people wanting to end their lives. We celebrate birthdays and weddings and why not dying? The space I would create would be surrounded by nature and inside I would use projectors to project on the walls any scenery a person may want. There would also be a sound system and the space would accommodate the friends and family who want to be there. Some native Americans gather when a family member is crossing over. Where I live we have the right to die and I think it would be nice to make the moment as pleasant as possible.

Now I have to go take care of someone's dog before going to work. The man is back in the hospital. I really don't like caring for his dog but it must be done. I hope he comes home from the hospital soon. Just a heads up, I may be busy for a while. Not that I have that much to do but I need to rest and when my energy is low I can not think well enough to write even a post.

I know, I wasn't referring to that book you have started writing. I was referring to the book about your family members involved in fighting for basic human rights, that I think you should all write. From what you have typed so far, that sounds like it would be a very interesting book. — universeness

Really? I never thought of that. What would be interesting about that? Do you know Jefferson plagiarized John Locke? But John Locke said "life, liberty, and property" not "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

I suppose we could do a thread about the moral demands of our human rights. But the brain issue means I won't be writing any books. Now that I am experiencing this, I wonder if it was not also behind Hemmingway's suicide.

Hemingway's Suicide Caused by his Doctors - Dr. Gabe Mirkinhttps://www.drmirkin.com › histories-and-mysteries › h...
Apr 15, 2022 — He was driven to suicide by extreme pain, depression and loss of mental function. Taking a routine family history should have led his doctor to ... — Brett and Kate McKay

I think it is wrong to blame the doctors. So far we can not stop the deterioration of our brains and bodies.

You love what you do so keep doing it until your last breath. — universeness

The issue of this thread is life sucks and I am saying old age sucks. I am not sure I should still be driving and what I do depends on driving, unless I could get into a large facility and be allowed to be useful. I am explaining old age can mean losing our independence and becoming useless. The philosophical arguments for suicide express my thoughts of this situation.

Confucianism holds that failure to follow certain values is worse than death; hence, suicide can be morally permissible, and even praiseworthy, if it is done for the sake of those values. The Confucian emphasis on loyalty, self-sacrifice, and honour has tended to encourage altruistic suicide.[13] Confucius wrote, "For gentlemen of purpose and men of ren while it is inconceivable that they should seek to stay alive at the expense of ren, it may happen that they have to accept death in order to have ren accomplished."[14] Mencius wrote:[15]

Fish is what I want; bear's palm is also what I want. If I cannot have both, I would rather take bear's palm than fish. Life is what I want; yi is also what I want. If I cannot have both, I would rather take yi than life. On the one hand, though life is what I want, there is something I want more than life. That is why I do not cling to life at all cost. On the other hand, though death is what I loathe, there is something I loathe more than death. That is why there are dangers I do not avoid ... Yet there are ways of remaining alive and ways of avoiding death to which a person will not resort. In other words, there are things a person wants more than life and there are also things he or she loathes more than death. — Wikipedia

Merci beaucoup for the link; I have a feeling I've already bookmarked it on my browser. I'm mostly concerned about so-called unexplained suicides which I define as those suicides that simply don't make sense - no financial issues, no chronic illnesses, no mental disorders, you get the idea. Such people who take their own life do so for no reason at all - someone is at his office, doing his work, and suddenly he says to himself "You know what, I think I'll kill myself; I just feel like it!" and then jumps out the window. These suicides are what I find worthy of further investigation. — Agent Smith

Now that one could be brain chemistry. It could be something like the depression some women have after giving birth to a child because their hormones get messed up. The news health link explains the possible brain chemical problem.

So, in principle, an assassin could simply lace a cup of coffee with serotonin and make the victim kill himself? The perfect murder. Let's not go giving killers ideas now, ok? — Agent Smith

But I paid good money for the service.

I like what my grandson said about dying. "I don't mind dying, I just don't want to see it coming."

I think most of us, if not all of us, want our deaths to be very fast. You know, the sudden heart attack or going to bed at night and just not waking up. But there is something good to say about having time to say our goodbyes and come to terms with the parting.

I think we need some help being philosophical about suicide so I googled the subject.

In ethics and other branches of philosophy, suicide poses difficult questions, answered differently by various philosophers. The French Algerian essayist, novelist, and playwright Albert Camus (1913–1960) began his philosophical essay The Myth of Sisyphus with the famous line "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide" (French: Il n'y a qu'un problème philosophique vraiment sérieux : c'est le suicide).[1]


Contents
1 Arguments against suicide
1.1 Absurdism
1.2 Christian-inspired philosophy
1.3 Liberalism
1.4 Deontology
1.5 Social contract
1.6 Aristotle
2 Neutral and situational stances
2.1 Honor
2.2 Utilitarianism
3 Arguments that suicide is permissible
3.1 Idealism
3.2 Libertarianism
3.3 Stoicism
3.4 Confucianism
3.5 Other arguments
4 See also
5 References
6 Further reading
7 External links — Wikipedia

There are a lot of unexplained suicides. Universeness and I had a discussion on that issue a couple of days ago. — Agent Smith

“The highest risk groups are older men,” says Pearson. “In fact, white men who are 85 and older have a rate of suicide that’s 4 times the national average.” — news in health

I think there could be a philosophical explanation for this. Or a psychological cause that everyone wants to deny- getting old really sucks! I had a good friend who killed herself because she could not bare to lose her independence and was left alone far too much as emphysema slowly took her life. But there are also biological considerations.

Over the decades, Arango and her colleagues have conducted detailed studies of brain structure and biology in hundreds of suicide victims. They’ve found that certain brain regions in suicide have fewer nerve cells and altered receptors for neurotransmitters. Abnormalities related to the neurotransmitter serotonin have been linked to suicide in many studies. Scientists have not yet figured out if these flaws in serotonin directly contribute to suicide or—more likely—if serotonin is one part of a complicated chemical pathway to suicide. Serotonin is also believed to play a key role in depression and response to stress and trauma. — news in health

It's quite surprising that there are no documented cases of people suiciding out of, well, curiosity and nothing else. — Agent Smith

I wish that were true but many children are dying because of a stupid social media challenge.

Parents of children who died during 'Blackout Challenge' sue ...https://www.jsonline.com › story › news › 2022/07/05 › p...
Jul 5, 2022 — Milwaukee parents sue TikTok over the death of their daughter, 9, who hanged herself during 'Blackout Challenge' The parents of a 9-year-old ... — Bruce Vielmetti

Good morning Athena. So you are a veteran fighter from a family of veteran fighters and you gained that very admirable title without killing people in a foreign land. An excellent legacy imo. I would like to read that book about you and your family and all the battles you fought for the economically and socially oppressed. Has that book been written and if not why not and why don't you write it. All you need to do is describe all the events that happened, someone else could record into a computer. I would buy that book, it sounds very interesting. — universeness

The book has nothing to do with my family except my grandmother was a teacher and her generation of teachers thought they were defending democracy in the classroom by helping children learn to read, write and do math, all are about learning HOW to think. They also taught good citizenship. The book is based on the old books I have read and collected regarding education. The purpose is to understand the importance of culture and the importance of education for transmitting that culture. That is the only way it is possible to have liberty and justice.

I quit working on the book and a blog I started because my brain is not functioning well enough to do those things. On the fun side, several of my stories were published in a book about hippies. On the serious side, a few newspapers published my ideas about social justice over a period of many years. Now my greatest wish is for someone, who does have writing skills and shares my interest, who will pay attention to my collection of old books and write about what education, culture, liberty, and justice have to do with each other. It drives me crazy to listen to the news and all the talk about all the problems we have, and NO ONE CONNECTS THOSE PROBLEMS WITH IMITATING GERMANY. I don't care who explains what happened I just want the media to stop talking as though what is happening is a complete mystery. It is not a complete mystery. It is the same thing that happened to Athens, Rome, and Germany. However, I think we can keep it simple and simply say adopting the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education put the US on the same path Germany followed.

What about seeing Putin fall after Russia experiences a Vietnam type defeat against Ukraine? — universeness

I don't need to live to see that, but if it did happen, it would please me very much. However, remember we thought war with Afghanistan was the USSR's Vietnam war, and we armed the folks like Bin Laden and gave them training, and when the USSR walked out we walked in. Wouldn't it be fun if we could replay history like we used to be able to replay the early Nintendo games?
Vietnam and Afghanistan are our failures just as Athens got carried away with its military success and started abusing its power. We have a problem with understanding morals. We should not behave as we do not want others to behave.

What about meeting a child in a store or on the street who fires one of those smiles at you which is just indescribable in its sublime honesty and innocence? — universeness

Last Wednesday I met a man at the senior center and I am praying he is there this coming Wednesday. A couple of months ago he had a stroke that makes it impossible for him to think and he is homeless. I can get him into shelter but I have to find him to do that. Last week I left the room to wash dishes and hoped he would stay and play Bingo until I got done with the dishes. I knew better. It was obvious he was not capable of playing without help and everyone else was avoiding him. If I see him this week I am not leaving him until I know where is sleeping so I can find him again. I hate it when I am trying to help a homeless person and I can not find them. My sister deals with the problem daily. It feels great to get someone to the hospital in time or get them into housing or give them a tent, but there are a lot of bad moments too.

If I had the kind of relationship with my family that your mother has, I would do as your mother is doing. I hope you realize how important that is to the decision.

quote="universeness;735098"]Perhaps there are still some movies you need to see Athena.
Some good things you still have to witness.[/quote]

Hum, the title of this thread is life sucks and you are arguing we should want something so much we are willing to stay alive for it. I see a chance for some philosophical thinking here.

I kept a high school notebook. When I was 16 or 17 years old I wrote a story about a woman who was given artificial parts every time a part of her body malfunctioned. She could not die because her artificial parts kept her alive. This is a horror story because everyone she cared about had died and the only thing she wanted was death.

I still agree with that. My time in history is past and just about everyone I know is glad to be close to the end. What we have today is not new and improved or more efficient to us. What we value is in the past, not the future, and don't want to be part of the future we see coming. My family appreciates that I intend to end my life if I am diagnosed with something like Alzheimer's or ALS and that I will not become a burden to them. What should I want more than peace with my life and the end? Winning a million-dollar lottery could be fun, but that is not likely.

Isn't that argument about God basically as argument about what can be known?

Do you also consider the existence of Zeus or Hormaz or Shiva as one of the toughest?

I think you see my point. The reason this question is especially relevant to you— understandably — is because you have been raised in the Christian faith and live in a predominantly Christian culture. — Xtrix

Well yes, that is where I began at about age 8. I have attempted to know all the different understandings of God with the hope of determining what is true. Kind of like the Romans took all the common beliefs and brought them together into one religion with one God.

With what we know today, I do not understand how anyone can read the Bible and believe those stories are better than the stories of Zeus and other gods.

am not sure you would settle for such a situation Athena. We all need help to care for ourselves sometimes. Have you not cared for many others in your life, would it be so wrong to expect a little care in return? When I imagine myself homeless and on the streets, especially if I cant figure that it was completely my fault then I think my sense of injustice would kick in. I would try to organise my fellow homeless and move into or protest in a local theistic building (church, chapel, mosque, temple, cathedral etc) or I would try to occupy my local town hall or live/die outside the door of my local MP etc.
I would make as much of a political nuisance of myself as I could, to call for better protection of the elderly. I would die happier knowing that I lived true to myself until my last breath. — universeness

Good morning love. I did all of that during the Reagan years. When I owed a home. I did it because I wanted to get people out of my home and they needed help. I opened my home to many young people during the great recession and then to add insult to injury, as soon as the recession ended, rents skyrocketed, and that put even more people on the streets! I joined with homeless guys and we did things to get media coverage. We stormed public hearings and when we got political the city used the police to drive them from town.

My granddaughter did, even more, a few years ago before she was given a campground to manage. My sister is still extremely active rescuing people on the streets and dealing with people in the seats of power. My sister lives in a different city with much less to offer. Where I live, those in power finally accepted we can not house everyone in regular housing so they started building tiny homes in little clusters all over town and they are supervised. We have added counseling services to our mix of assistance. Today I am hunting for a homeless man I met yesterday because he has to get hooked up with a hospital to get help getting off the streets- he had a stroke and his head is not working! I am advocating for the man and his daughter who are camped in front of my apartment. :lol: I know a little about being homeless and a little about being political, and I am glad you would take action if you became homeless.

As for allowing others to help me. If I could live in retirement apartments where there is a dining room and weekly housekeeping, and I was allowed to do something useful, then I would do that. It is about quality of life. If I can no longer be useful it is time for me to go. We all die and we need to accept that gracefully.

:lol: OMG, yes, living to see Trump jailed may qualify as something worth living for. A change in my family would be super, not just for me but the children. There would be no big problem if the situation with children did not trouble me. Oh and speaking of that, it has everything to do with what education for technology has done to our culture. Values are so changed and this is a serious social problem that has torn families apart. This is especially hard for grandparents. They all advised me to hold my tongue and don't try to change anything. Fine, but I am not living for my family beyond my ability to be independent. My son and daughter were at home when I cared for my grandmother with Alzheimer's and we have an agreement that I can leave this world if I get like that. I just have to act on that decision before I can not act on it. It all hinges on my independence and usefulness.

Oh, have you seen the movie, Harold and Maude? Maude kills herself on her 80th birthday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mz3TkxJhPc

5. He was always curious or impatient to find out if heaven and hell really existed. He had prayed and prayed to his god and in a dream, he received (perfectly rational in his opinion) permission from his god (no suicide exclusion clause) to come join his god now and enjoy the heavenly paradise as he had done enough in his life lived so far to qualify under well established god criteria. — universeness

That is the one I will choose. Except it would really suck if death were not much different from life. I have read that if we are stuck in a bad place in our lives, it is much easier to get through that and move on to a good place in this three-dimensional reality. In the next realm, it takes much longer to pass through a bad spot. I think it is pretty important to have our heads in a good space when we cross over.

Does the 'something really cool could happen and you will miss it,' not do anything for you?
I am always amazed by some of the cases of people I have read about who live with disabilities that would probably overwhelm me yet they still fight so hard for every moment of life.
What do you think of a life such as Helen Keller's? — universeness

I think Helen Keller is an awesome example of a courageous human.

I have always believed our elders are valuable people, but when we can not take care of ourselves and be useful perhaps it is our duty to leave life to the young? Do you realize an increasing number of homeless people are elderly people and they are at a higher risk of dying on the streets than the young? For sure I would rather be dead than be one of them and the way rents are going up, I could be one of them.

I can not imagine anything really cool happening that I would want to stay around for. I am full of life and don't need anymore. I was living to write a book about education and democracy, and now my brain just will not handle that. That is the last straw. I cared for my grandmother with Alzheimer's disease and see no good in living like that. If my family loved me I would have a life purpose, of being a sweet old lady giving love to them the best that I can, but my family does not love me. They think I am a really awful person so I have no contact with the children. That wouldn't matter if I could complete the book but I can not do that either, so what is the point? It is not that life sucks but mine is not getting any better. :lol:

Well today I am in Hades contemplating ending my life. And trust me I have done my best to learn and I do my best to be of service to others. I suppose I could think of all those who would prefer I stay alive, but I am kind of stuck on family issues and at the moment nothing else seems to matter. Besides, I am old and I don't want to live with Alzheimer's disease, nor without my sight and hearing, and in general the increasing problems with my mind and body, and I am not accomplishing what I want to accomplish regarding democracy and education so what is the point of living now? To me, death means no more fear and no more pain, and that seems pretty good to me. Another plus, I would no longer be part of the scarcity and global warming problems.

— javi2541997

Is correct about the complexity of our states of mind.
I believe it was Plato's parents who intentionally ended their lives. I have read the opinion that it is the duty of the elderly to end their lives. That is not because life sucks but being old and having family issues can suck.

I also love make-believe. — universeness

Thank goodness.

I can actually make up some good stories myself. — universeness

You proved that. I thought your story was a very good one about being balanced and I think with some effort a whole lot of philosophical ideas could embellish that story.

I would get rid of Santa Clause and Christmas — universeness

:gasp: You can't do that! I love Christmas and all the pagan trimmings that go with it. Can we settle on Christmas being a pagan holiday marking the winter solstice and the huge feast is the celebration of turning that corner and heading back into longer days and growing crops? I don't think we should give up our ties with nature. I think it is better to feel like we a part of nature. I resent what Christianity has done to our pagan connection with nature.

I think that's because they are so FAKE! — universeness

I would argue the sad problem is being disconnected from nature and the whole of humanity. For me, I am sitting with all those people who are hungry and fearful and very relieved when the days start getting longer. Knowing if they have made it this far, chances are good they will make it until the food is growing again. I feel a connection with them and traditions make us conscious of our connection with humanity.

During care week, we have street festivals and street parties and events that celebrate our differences and our common needs and hopes for the future — universeness

We have an annual Asian Celebration as Spring approaches. Asian people from around the world have booths and sell things, there is a stage for all of them to share their dances and music, and there is a room for children with craft projects. We also have a Scandinavian Festival that is pretty much the same thing but from a different part of the world.

I do not like what we have done to the fair! In the past, the fair was a community event, not a commercial event. Please, please may I have the old-fashioned fair where we showed off our handwork, produce, hobbies, ect. and met with our neighbors.

Sure, go ahead and do that, and allow me to shout over your shoulder that all these 'similar stories' are made up LIES! Now let's study how the Sumerians, Assyrians, Akkadians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Greeks, etc actually lived day to day. Let's talk about the REAL moral dilemma's they faced. We don't need to use their fantasy god stories or their Minotaur or titan fables to exemplify human moral dilemma's or injustice or how to establish decent sociopolitical systems. We just need to use examples of REAL people and how they lived and what they decided to do and why.
We have examples from every generation from Julius Caesar to everyday romans like Petronius Artibus (Grafitti on a wall in Egypt, 'Petronius Artibus got me pregnant') to Soldier stories from the Napoleonic wars to Ann Franks Diary to Mrs Jones down the road who cant pay her bills!
We need to debate real life not rake over old BS fairy stories as a conduit to grown up discussion.
I type this 'with all due respect,' for your different viewpoint. — universeness

Wow, to me that judgment is about attitude. It is like getting crazy because you don't like chocolate ice cream. I love make-believe and would never want to be as ridge as you. From a very young age children can distinguish between make-believe and reality. Einstein imagined he was riding a beam of light and he considered imagination very important. Interesting all this arguing and all along the real issue seems to have been our different attitudes about make-believe.

Explain to me the following two Messiah labeled dictates: — universeness

I think the answer to that question is more about attitudes than anything else. When I realized there is no Santa Claus I was displeased with my mother for "lying" to me. She explained Santa Claus is real because it is the spirit of that time of year. Is that spirit real? It sure is. It is like morale, that good feeling we get when we believe we are doing the right thing. It is creating a celebration and enjoying all the good feelings that go with it. Santa Claus is real because we make it real. Or we can be grumpy and sit on the curb all by ourselves and be miserable knowing all that good feeling isn't real. It is just a lie.

Realizing people need those celebrations and the good stories that go with them, isn't a bad thing to me. When my grandchildren needed comforting I created a story about a bird family having the same problem. It is very much a Jewish tradition to handle problems by telling a story. This way a person gets the message without feeling insulted. And besides, what do we know of metaphysical reality? It might be a good thing to have an unknown god and awareness that we do not know everything. The first step to wisdom is realizing we do not know it all.

On the other hand, is logos. If polluting the air and oceans is harmful, we need to know that so we can stop the damage. The Greeks were very worried about getting things right. What is the universe made of and how does everything work? What is the reason, the controlling factor? We need to know so we can make good decisions and that is what democracy is about. Making good decisions and lifting the human potential to make life better.

Do you think I could sell this BS — universeness

Obviously to me, the story of Orga and Qubit is a moral tale and I judge it worth repeating.

Someone asked Jesus why he speaks in parables and he replied because people pay attention to the stories. We used to read children moral stories and at the end would ask, what is the moral of that story, The expected answer is cause and effect, "The Little Engine that Could" made it over the hill because it did not give up. The fox did not get the grapes because he gave up. The Little Red did not share her bread because no one would share the work with her. Orga and Qubit became a good balance. The truth of these stories is there when they are not taken literally. It is clearly the storyteller's job to prepare the young to be good members of the group.

If we want to argue against Christianity, point out how people around the world have similar stories and there is nothing special about the Christian ones, but in fact, their Garden of Eden story started in Ur and is the translation of a Sumerian story. Christian holidays are seasonal pagan holidays given a Christian interpretation. Jung studied the symbolism of these stories and the stories seem to use the same symbolism because we share the human experience, and Campbell picks up from Jung to explain the importance of myths and Bolen helps us see the Greek gods and goddesses as archetypes.

The reason for these stories is not fear, but bonding people together and teaching the young how to be good members of the tribe. But in some places, the stories got tied to political power and the lack of it and then they a bad for us.

What?? Have you ever tried personally to perceive 'everything?' You do know that cannot be done, right? — universeness

Do you mean it was not one-upmanship to question if I forgot about Lilith? This is my last response to a post that makes me the subject.

What Sumerian story are you relating to climate change? The flood in the fable of Gilgamesh?
You can achieve what you suggest very quickly by honestly stating that all god stories are untrue!
We don't need to stroke the theist ego and pander to lies. We need to value and profess historical TRUTH as best we can based on the very limited accuracy of the historical documentation we have.
3 hours ago — universeness

What if not all God stories are untrue, but we simply don't know enough to interpret them correctly? Personally, I think superstition came late in human evolution. One reason for telling stories is to transmit information essential to survival. The information we remember best is information about ourselves and to this day we name our machines and cars and imply they have personalities of their own. We do not believe that is true, but it is fun to humanize our machines. Or in the case of nomadic people, it is much easier to find the stone formation of 3 sisters who identify an area where water can be found. Whatever started the story is forgotten over the years, and then the sense of the story becomes nonsense to all those except the people who have a cultural identity with them.

In the case of the story of Eden. It is a story of a flood and very, very long drought for which there is geological evidence. A flood caused the river to overflow and it ate a goddess's plants. That made her very angry so she condemned the river to death. That was the years of drought and the river almost died but a fox convinced the goddess to let the river live. A few goddesses gathered to heal the river and the river ask the main one to give him helpers so he would not overflow the river banks and kill her plants again. That is when she made a man and woman of mud and she breathed life into them.

Indigenous people around the world have similar stories and the cultural lesson is in part history mixed with imaginative storytelling that makes the information more interesting and rememberable, and part, an explanation of how life works and of man's purpose. We must help the river stay in its banks, or care for the land so the sacrad buffalo is well cared for and does not mind sacrificing some of their lives for ours.

I am quite sure the storytellers knew what they were doing. And fear is not the only motivator for telling and retelling stories. Which is getting this thread back on track. Our lives do have purpose and meaning and if our lives are not doing well, perhaps we need to ask why.

Thank you for motivating me to look for the Etymology of "God". This information proves there is so much more for me to learn.

The English word god comes from the Old English god, which itself is derived from the Proto-Germanic *ǥuđán. Its cognates in other Germanic languages include guþ, gudis (both Gothic), guð (Old Norse), god (Old Saxon, Old Frisian, and Old Dutch), and got (Old High German).

The Proto-Germanic meaning of *ǥuđán and its etymology is uncertain. It is generally agreed that it derives from a Proto-Indo-European neuter passive perfect participle *ǵʰu-tó-m. This form within (late) Proto-Indo-European itself was possibly ambiguous, and thought to derive from a root *ǵʰeu̯- "to pour, libate" (the idea survives in the Dutch word, 'Giet', meaning, to pour) (Sanskrit huta, see hotṛ), or from a root *ǵʰau̯- (*ǵʰeu̯h2-) "to call, to invoke" (Sanskrit hūta). Sanskrit hutá = "having been sacrificed", from the verb root hu = "sacrifice", but a slight shift in translation gives the meaning "one to whom sacrifices are made."

Depending on which possibility is preferred, the pre-Christian meaning of the Germanic term may either have been (in the "pouring" case) "libation" or "that which is libated upon, idol" — or, as Watkins[1] opines in the light of Greek χυτη γαια "poured earth" meaning "tumulus", "the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound" — or (in the "invoke" case) "invocation, prayer" (compare the meanings of Sanskrit brahman) or "that which is invoked". — Wikipedia

Just a small aside! Did you forget about Adam's first wife, Lilith? Made from the same dirt/earth/clay that Adam was made from in that particular fable. If you don't want to be guided too much by christian versions of fables then why is Lilith not important here as 'first woman'? — universeness

Ninti is a Sumerian goddess who healed the river that is the center of the Sumerian story of Eden. "The Sumerian word for rib is ti, and the rib-healing goddess came to be called Ninti, which translates both as "the lady of the rib" and "the Lady who makes live". This play on words does not work in Hebrew, but the rib did enter the Garden of Eden story in the form of Eve, the mother of the human race."

Let me confirm my knowledge is limited and I know nothing of Lilith. Should we assume you know everything and are superior? :blush:

I have no particularly christian concept of god, — universeness

Perhaps you live in China? Only if you have always lived in a region that is not Christian-dominated can you not have "particularly Christian concepts of god". That is true because all the stories from the Greeks, Romans, Celts, and Christians are all part of our consciousness, however, individuals can be completely unaware of how they came to think as they do, and if they think those who came before us have nothing to teach us, they will ignore them, therefore, they will remain ignorant. And being unaware of the effect of their own intentional ignorance of information, they will assume those who do not agree with them are in the wrong.

But we don't need god fables or Arthurian legends to exemplify such cautionary tales, we could just use the more tame example of your misunderstanding of what I am typing. — universeness

Perhaps the word "epistemology" can be used to explain the importance of the gods? Epistemology is derived from the ancient Greek epistēmē, meaning "knowledge", and the suffix -logia, meaning "logical discourse". Exactly where did our ideas come from, and how were they changed as they moved from place to place and throughout time? That is a very different study than theology.

I choose to use epistemology to argue against theology. Rather than refuse to talk about what theorist believe as the atheists do. Eden (uncultivated plain) Adam (settlement on the plain) and Eve (the Lady of the rib and the lady who makes live) come from Sumerian mythology and I would bet this story is an account of climate change, but over the years of the truth of the story is forgotten and we get myth instead of accurate information. There are several prototypes of Jesus. As Christians convert millions of people by giving the people's gods and seasonal celebrations a Christian interpretation, my intent is to reverse this process and raise awareness of the pagan beginning of those ideas.

universeness — universeness

We would not have an argument if you were not doing exactly what I said atheists do. You are using a Christian concept of God and creation for all your arguments. Stop it.

Yes, the gods are the foundation of our laws, democracy and western civilization. The book "Laws, Gods, & Hero's Thematic Readings in Early Western History" by H.A. Drake and J.W. Leedom explains the human story and should not be confused with theism.

And don't yell at me about humans creating those stories because you have to distort everything I am saying to believe you have an argument with me. Joseph Campbell, the expert on such mythology, explains how we come to have similar myths and the importance of those myths. You are the one applying superstition to my arguments because that supports your atheist cause. My cause is democracy, rule by reason as opposed to authority over the people, and my sense of purpose is raising awareness of the foundation of democracy, an imitation of the gods arguing until they have a consensus on the best reasoning.

If you don't ask the right questions, you won't get the right answers.

But we don't need god fables or Arthurian legends to exemplify such cautionary tales, we could just use the more tame example of your misunderstanding of what I am typing. — universeness

Yes, we do. However, we do not have to apply superstitious notions to them.

I don't see why your suggestion that god personified as a group of unidentified universals such as a notion of universal law would assist the dialogue between atheists and theists. — universeness

I can not imagine anything of importance that we would know without the effort to understand cause and effect and universal truths. If we don't ask the right questions, can not possibly get the right answers.

I think your battle is with your own fickle approach.
I am also disappointed but more bemused by your rather childish response quoted above.
Nothing I typed was insulting or was an attack and I had no interest in directing you anywhere.
Thanks anyway for the exchange. — universeness

I think your battle is with your own fickle approach.
I am also disappointed but more bemused by your rather childish response quoted above.
Nothing I typed was insulting or was an attack and I had no interest in directing you anywhere.
Thanks anyway for the exchange. — universeness

You may not have intended to attack or insult but those gods are the foundation of democracy and western civilization. They are the substance of liberal education and our laws. As you found fault in what I said, I find fault in you appear to not know.

I just don't see any great value in how you wish to roleplay with theism.
You seem to want to give the god posits a chair at the table of discussion on the future of the human race or in the 'how to make humans a better sentient lifeform,' discussions.
I don't even want to let the god posits in the building or even in the city the meetings are held in.
They deserve no place as they are inventions of our primal fears and as such, should be terminated for good. There is nothing to fear in the dark except that which we bring with us. We need to leave the god BS in the dirt, like any empty vessel no longer of any use to a progressive intelligent species. — universeness

Oh dear, crash and burn. Your ignorance and intolerance has ended the fun. And that was a knee-jerk emotional reaction to what I said, not the rational reply I had come to expect from you. I am very disappointed and also reassured that my opinion of atheists being more emotional than rational was correct. Just like the rest of them, you sank to attacks and insults when the discussion did not go in the direction you wanted.

It looks like a beautiful day outside. I think I will go enjoy it.

I can only respond as an atheist. I cannot type for all atheists as they are a varied group. Can you give me an example of an atheistic statement you consider irrational? — universeness

:heart: Your post makes me wonder if I died and went to heaven. I am home sick with covid and you make me very glad I am here with you, instead of distracted by mundane life.

Yes, I can give you a statement. "There is no god". To be absolutely sure there is no god, one has to define what a god is, and boy, oh boy, is that irritating to me when someone is working with a definition of god and has become completely closed-minded and therefore makes a discussion of god impossible.

I was banned from a science forum simply because I used the word "god". I was saying we could consider universal law as god, and my goal was to open discussion as good as the ancient Greeks and do all the blending you have said I am trying to do. :grin:

I was explaining if we deny the existence of God we prove to the Christians the truth of the Bible. Those bad people will deny the existence of God. On the other hand, if we remain open-minded and work with the notion of a God, that weakens the Christian argument and if we are lucky we get to ideas that are more reasonable. Did God create all plants and animals with mud or just humans? Let us ask "how does God do that", instead of ending the discussion with "there is no god". Now you are moving into science and away from superstition. We are moving in the direction of reason instead of emotionalism. We walk people over the bridge to our side, instead of standing with our swords drawn and preventing anyone from crossing the bridge. That behavior is emotional. It is not the way of reason.

Let's try this. We determine if a person does or does not have covid with a chemical test that produces one line if a person is negative or two lines if a person is positive. With science, we know what we are looking for and we can prove the virus does or does not exist in that sample. So how can we know God does not exist without knowing what that God is, and if you know what God is, where did you get that information and how do you prove God does not exist? On the other hand, what reasonable person can believe through the powers of reason that God created man like a child creates mud pies? Back in the day of Sumer that may have seemed reasonable, but we laugh at other people's creation stories because they seem so silly to us, so how can know what we know today and believe we were made of clay? Human- moist soil.

I know they will reject most or all of these but their rejection is based on rational thinking imo. — universeness

Reason, what must we have for good reasoning? How much time do you believe you are being rational? I think this video can change the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgQutgSwY88

there is no need for a first cause such as a god — universeness

Why reject the concept of a god here? How are you defining god? Back to the test for covid, you seem to know what you have to look for. What does god look like? Are you sure your notion of god was not defined by Christians who insist the only god is one that is impossible to believe?

quote="universeness;732295"]There have been a few threads on whether or not universal truths exist.
I have my own examples of how far I can get with the concept of universals. The speed of light in a vacuum for example.[/quote]

You are being delightfully rational and you did not conclude new evidence means what we believed about the speed of light is false, and that is that, and we will never again speak of it except to repeat over and over again what we have believed is false; ending any further discussion. Instead, you said It is in question. :lol: That is putting it lightly. I think new evidence has put our most obvious understanding of our 3 dimensional reality, in question.. What the heck is the reality of 12 dimensions?
The point being it is one thing to say something is in question and quite another to insist it does not exist and to make all discussion of it impossible.

The fact that physics used to be called natural philosophy just means that modern labels are far better than ancient ones and perhaps we should stop being so attracted to the very limited knowledge of the ancient Greeks and their like. — universeness

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I am not attracted to the limited knowledge of ancient Greeks, but rather fascinated by the uniqueness of thinking that came out of Athens. Aristotle was not 100% correct and there was a huge backlash against him after the Church through Scholasticism raised awareness of logical thinking, but who else gave us something equivalent to his explanation of logical thinking? His understanding of logical thinking was problematic and that hindered the advancement of science, with Bacon correcting the problem and pole vaulting us into the modern age. :heart: But where else in the world did a civilization advance the reasoning of Athens, the reasoning of the gods? Gods had powers, but the power of reason? Does not the power of reason create a whole new universe? Well, that could be an exaggeration but it could be fun to talk about it. :wink:

The chosen people concept is a very old BS claim as well. This happens in every neighbourhood to a lesser or similar degree. 'The cool kids', The alpha's, A-list celebs etc, its all total BS. — universeness

:cheer: :cheer: :grin: You might be the people but we are the real people. I am referring to the tribal notion that "my tribe is the best and most deserving" which is no different from opposing chimpanzee troops crossing paths in the forest except humans can come up with more arguments than the chimps. :lol:

This is perhaps the best reason to argue against a God creating humans from the mud on the banks of a river that flowed threw Sumer. If we are going to be rational and have arguments about humans that can progress to better understanding and therefore better reasoning, we need to go with the science of evolution and drop the mythology. And we need to stop pointing fingers and being blind to our own blindness.

Yes, I believe polytheism is less problematic because believing in many gods is more apt to lead to believing the other guy also has a god even though his god is not the same as yours. Now you may both go to war and test which one of you has the strongest god, or we might sit down and argue in favor of our gods without the blindness of believing there is only one god and this god favors you. :lol:
in an effort to know truth.

MORE IMPORTANT, if a god is being a complete jerk like Hades was when he took Demeter's daughter, there are gods who can put restrictions on Hades. If there is only one god there is no correction of errors. This is the democratic issue! Are we powerless under the tyranny of a god, or can we appeal to other gods? The Greeks asked a lot of important questions of the gods and in so doing had arguments with many different points of view. Each god had a different point of view, and a different way of handling things, and in dealing with all of them, the Greeks expanded their consciousness. Conscience is "con"-coming out of, "science".

"How do the gods resolve their differences?" They argue until they have a consensus on the best reasoning. This thinking did not come with the first storytelling of the gods, but wherever people had many gods, every time they realized a new concept, they created a god, like we now name new atomic particles every time we have to explain a new observation of atomic particles. Apollo was a late comer coming a of time chaos and reasoning was essential, so whala! there is a god of reason. This learning of new gods, forced many to search for truth and limit the number of gods they had. Egypt, for a time, turned to the one and only god Ra. The point is gods organize our thinking and advance our understanding of life and the universe. If you have only one god you learn His truth and may discover new technology, butthat is not equal to science and advancing higher-level knowledge.

Here is a great Hindu example of what I mean by the gods advancing our higher-level knowledge.

A deeply religious Hindu, Ramanujan credited his substantial mathematical capacities to divinity, and said the mathematical knowledge he displayed was revealed to him by his family goddess Namagiri Thayar. — wikipedia

We do not get knowledge of mathematics and a higher morality from the tribal God of Abraham.

That means we judge all gods by the Christian understanding of a god. Our bias has prevented learning of the gods. You can't google for infomation because Christianity floods the internet making it very difficult to find information about primative people and the gods.
— Athena

I don't think this is true, certainly not for any secular person or atheist. The internet has a great deal of inaccurate information on it and it can be quite time consuming to validate and confirm the truth of all documentation on it but you can find out as much as is known about an earlier civilisation. — universeness

I want to address this separately because I don't want my point lost in too much verbiage. Have you spent much time arguing whether there is or is not a "God"? I don't care how rabid the atheist is, the atheist is using the same concept of God as the Christians hold to be true. Most people are reacting emotionally to the word "God" and they are incapable of being rational about "god". Atheists can not tolerate the word "god" so they can not get to reasoning the possibility of a universal force and being okay with calling it "god" just for the sake of argument. Does gravity exist? What causes it? If God is the cause of gravity what else in nature could be a universal truth? Thus, getting away from some of the hair-brain notions about a God who has favorite people. Athiest are their own worst enemy because they are reacting emotionally just like the believers are reacting emotionally. They are both like boxers in a ring ready to jump when the bell rings.

Secondly, the US and Christians do dominate the internet. The problem could be I use google and evidently, google ranks things according to popularity, so the one person who has a better argument of truth becomes almost impossible, if not completely impossible, to find because the 5 million idiots crowd out the one good argument.

Greeks held a notion of universals and the philosophy that questioned the universals became science. I think addressing the God issue from the point of view of universals could lead to more meaningful discussions than the ones we can have with Christians or atheists.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of 'untouchability' within the Hindu caste system.
I am sure the excuse you mention is used but only as a misrepresentation of the true intention of untouchability, which is to label people that certain religious or social dogma portray as being inferior.

Untouchability is believed to have been first mentioned in Dharmashastra, according to the religious Hindu text, untouchables were not considered a part of the varna system. Therefore, they were not treated like the savarnas (Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras).

There are many examples of such nonsense in the bible as well. For example, a menstruating woman may not enter the tabernacle as she is unclean! — universeness

I have bolded the statement I want to reply to. I think there are examples of untouchables in many cultures however, not every culture would have institutionalized this common human behavior in the same way. I have read some ancient yoga practices are extremely concerned with cleanliness, Hebrews were also concerned with cleanliness but I don't think to the same extent. When the US had outhouses there were people who were paid to tend to outhouses. The owner of an estate surely would not want his daughter associating with such a person, especially if this person looked different, or if outhouses were associated with disease. The US has had some very prejudiced laws!

Hebrews for sure saw themselves as different from others and they institutionalized that aspect of being Hebrew. Kind of like, all people have engaged in war, but not all of them created an economic and social organization around their military, such as Prussia was organized around its military. These human behaviors being common, but more or less, formal and defining. The point is, knowing what I know about human behavior and organizations, I think it is silly to point a figure at India for having different social classes. and untouchables. In the US a young man of color could be killed just for speaking with a White woman. We had a huge segregation problem! We just call it racism instead of Hinduism. :lol: Bad behavior isn't funny but on the other hand it can be pretty ridiculous, especially when we point fingers at others as though we don't think and act just as badly or worse.