I might sing some of the old songs though, now and then. — unenlightened

I started watching movies I don't normally watch and kicking up feelings I was not aware of having, and crying to cleanse my soul. With nothing to distract us can we avoid soul searching or do we even want to?

You can always do art projects or read, if those things are fun and you're not consigned to one room. Recently discovered ice tie dye. Though there be so many things to do (or nothing at all) if I was the last person on earth. — Nils Loc

I can work with that. I actually love walking along the river and communing with nature. Some days I am overwhelmed by appreciation of the beauty of nature. I have reacted to trees as beings in a different form and you hit upon a very important point! I wanted to walk along the river but didn't want to wear a mask, nor risk exposing someone to the virus so I was confining myself to my apartment.

On the good side, the confinement led to better organizing and I want to continue the effort of making my living space more attractive. Yes! to hell with the rules against putting holes in the walls. I have a large picture that absolutely has to go on the wall. I don't even want to go through the winter months without some improvements. Thank you for opening my mind to the possibilities. :heart:

The idea of finding a library sounds good to me. I wonder if I would write though, without the expectation anyone would ever read it. That turns into a kind of philosophical question on the value of art, I think. — Baden

Never give up hope! I am quite sure I would write with the hope that someday my written record would be found by another earthline or maybe a being from another planet. Such thoughts being helped by TV shows like Star Trek. Philosophically, my imagination is pretty good, so I might be able to keep myself motivated with that hope.

It is obvious to me how helpful the Bible is to people who can have faith. I think, how we experience life is very tied to self-talk. You know the saying "It isn't what happens to you that matters, but you make of it". It is so hard to know if I feel psychologically awful because of what I think, or are my hormones running the show, causing me to feel good or bad. I tend to be my worst enemy, beating myself up if I don't force myself to be positive. While people who have faith have a mental trick that can actually be very helpful. Like Robin Crusoe. Such classical novels can be helpful to us and some prisons have found the classics can correct the population who need a better perspective on life.

Congradulations for writing such a good story.

Then again since Big brother is around and about, one must become more paranoid. — Shawn

:lol: No thank you! I am having a very visceral reaction to what you said. I am also thinking of a professor's lectures about philosophy and the Intelligence of Emotion. I did not stop and think through what you said. I just immediately felt dread and thought I would rather be totally alone compared to the only other being, being a Big Brother that is as totally impersonal as some mods in other forums. What is that relationship and emotion of rejecting the possibility of existing with Big Brother? Why is that worse than complete aloneness?

Did you see the episode where there was a guy that got isolated on an abandoned island, which was suddenly evacuated because of--as it turned out--unfounded fears of a tsunami? And somehow he was the only one who got left behind--can't remember why--but there is loads of food around and no issue of physical survival etc. He's just on his own and expects to be for a long time, the other inhabitants having permanently relocated. — Baden

Thank you for the interesting story. That was a lot of work putting in all those words so I feel sincerely cared for. You relayed a sense of comprehension of my unpleasant feelings of Isolation and that meets my need to communicate with someone. I am thinking something philosophical could be said.

Last night I watched an anthropology professor's lectures about primates and humans. And after reading your story, I thought if I were truly isolated I would look for a library. I once worked for the University of Oregon library in the microfilm department when it was in the basement and they had the original newspapers. My job was to microfilm them and I had such a sense of connection with all the souls who lived in the past.

I have a video made by a man who lived alone for many years by a lake in Alaska. He had a few human contacts who would bring his supplies but most of the time he was truly isolated. I am in awe of his ability to do that!

Yesterday and today I had negative COVID test results so I am out of isolation. I am out of prison. :grin: I am not sure if I feel so much better because my health is better or if I feel so much better for psychological reasons. I just know my mental health today is a whole lot better. :grin:

What I mean is, you seem to equate the promise 'you will never need to vote again' on a par with the promise to raise minimum wages. The first comes down to the abolition of democracy the second may have good or bad economic consequences. They are not on the same level. You seem to present them as a dilemma, but they are not. One is an outright attack on the constitutional order the other a rather mundane policy proposal. The constitution has everything to do with the power of the president as the constitution circumscribe his or her power, that is what constitutions do, among other things. — Tobias

I appreciate the distinction you made between the candidates. They are both stupid promises! Can I please have another choice? :lol:

However, saying the constitution has everything to do with the power of the president makes no sense to me because I know more and more power has been given to the president. On the other hand things completely out of our control happen and talking as though one person is responsible for that is lacking in logic. That lack of logic seems to go with believing this one person will give us something we want. :brow:

The president of the US has a lot more power institutionally speaking than say, the president of Germany. — Tobias

Please tell more about Germany because this is so paradoxical. The US adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education and picked up German military ideas as well. However, I have come across info that makes me think the Germans are doing better. Such as you saying the German president does not have as much power as a US president and I think that means the Germans are doing something right that US is not doing. I read education in Germany encourages the young to pay attention to their personal experience instead of the US's excessive focus on empirical information.

Trump did not just promise to overturn the constitutional order, he acted on the willingness to do so. What is alarming to me is some people do not see that, and states that attempted to keep Trump off the ballot were prevented from doing so. How some can not see the danger Trump presents is a mystery to me. People who know he is a liar still believe he will keep his promises. That amazes me. It is his followers that lead me to say he is our Hitler. What is happening is more than the story of one man. It is also a story of our political climate.

So what steps can be taken to better protect our institutions?

I have to add, I don't think a presidential candidate should promise to raise minimum wages because I don't see how that can be done without creating inflation. I would like to know what others think of that.

do you think they are on the same level of constitutionality? — Tobias

What a delicious question. :nerd: Also what does the US Constitution have to do with the power of a president? US presidents gained a lot of power during the Roosevelt administration and again with Reagan and again after 911. Hum, I am thinking I need to be more careful because this is a serious subject and I hope you demand a good reply and don't let me slide with unsupported insinuations. I found a link that makes my point.

For most of the nineteenth century, the presidency was a weak institution. In unusual circumstances, a Jefferson, a Jackson, or a Lincoln might exercise extraordinary power, but most presidents held little influence over the congressional barons or provincial chieftains who actually steered the government. The president’s job was to execute policy, rarely to make it. Policy making was the responsibility of legislators, particularly the leaders of the House and Senate.

Today, the presidency has become the dominant force in national policy formation, not all domestic policy springs from the White House but none is made without the president’s involvement. And when it comes to foreign policy and, particularly security policy, there can be little doubt about presidential primacy. Of course, Congress retains the constitutional power to declare war, but the power has not been exercised in sixty-five years. During this period American military forces have been engaged in numerous conflicts all over the world—at the behest of the president....

while the power to persuade and other leadership abilities wax and wane with successive presidents, the power of the presidency has increased inexorably, perhaps growing more rapidly under the Roosevelts and Reagans and less so under the Fillmores and Carters of American politics but growing nonetheless.
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/2016/05/17/the-growth-of-presidential-power/

That is not a full explanation but I doubt anyone regular citizen can provide a more detailed explanation and it is citizen ignorance and complacy that gives the President so much power. We are not politically aware and Trump shares a lot with Hitler. If you want to question me, I will attempt to give answers.

What would make you say that? A fascist order is an order in which the state is held in supreme regard. The body politic is mass mobilized for the good of the state and individual rights are abolished in the name of some kind of social unity, it is generally a nationalist and militarist creed. — Tobias

That is an agreeable statement. Now we can make abortion illegal and we can ban books and in some states, Christianity can control education but fortunately, Texas teachers did win their supreme court battle with the Texas' efforts to mandate Creationism be taught as legitimate science. "Some kind of "social unity" is Christianity. Education for technology does not defend democracy in the classroom and Trump is our Hitler. I hope you take into consideration Germany was a Christian Republic. The book "The Founding Myth" by Andrew L. Seidel explains "Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American".Yes it is a nationalist and militarist creed doing God's "power and glory" with high-tech military abilities that can be used without a congressional declaration of war.

I should say, I write with concerns, not facts that I am sure of. Unless people are working with the bible and for the kingdom of God, how can they imagine it is a good thing that someone running for the presidency would think it is a good thing for this person to announce once he is elected they will never have to vote again? Constitutionally "The Twenty-second Amendment to the United States Constitution limits the number of terms a person can serve as President to two." What is Trump promising us when he says we will never have to vote again?

Have you no highly skilled assassins? — BC

:lol:

I myself also do like the D'Hondt method which takes into account how much the party in general has won and how much the individual candidates have won. Of course this way has funny result that if in an electoral district there's a hugely popular candidate of one party, let's say Josef Stalin, and the party has also with him totally unknown or hated candidates that get just a few votes, they'll go in assisted by the result of the huge electoral winner. The method (called also the Jefferson method) isn't easy to understand itself (the calculation method) and it makes coalitions useful, but I think it works.

What I don't like are these political systems where ruling parties make it extremely hard for new parties to get seats. And (unfortunately) in the case of the US, the POTUS has this "Superman" image as if one person could make a huge change to the system. True political change starts actually from the communal level. — ssu

Thank you. We have the problem of one candidate getting the popular vote and the other one winning because of the Electoral College which gives some states more importance than others.

[/quote]The Electoral College is not a physical place. It is a process which includes the: Selection of electors. Meeting of electors who cast votes for the president and vice president. Counting of the electors' votes by Congress.

Electoral College | USAGov

USA.gov
https://www.usa.gov › ... › How the president is elected [/quote]

We have red states and blue states and I don't think the Electoral College was designed with this culture division in mind? And the economic division is interesting. Democratic states have done better economically making our argument about the President's impact on the economy skewed. People in different states have different realities and it is kind of nuts we argue so much about the President's impact when the reality is different in different states. https://gppreview.com/2020/02/21/growing-divide-red-states-vs-blue-states/

The American economy was actually good when Trump was president.
— L'éléphant — L'éléphant

[quot3= Relativist
..until the pandemic shutdown. I think it's overly simplistic to either blame or give credit for the state of the economy. Business cycles are inevitable, and anomalies (like COVID) occur. Better to evaluate what policies a President implemented (or tried to implement).

What exactly is a president supposed to do for the economy? Isn't that fascist? The government running the economy? Is that what we want?

How about the international concerns like the US banking crashes that pull down other economies? Don't we need to govern against such disaster? By we I mean the whole world. Do we know enough to make good economic decisions?

I agree that many dogs are very smart. It's hard for us, an animal capable of abstracting and reflecting on our experiences, an ability which seems to be reliant on symbolic language, to understand animal intelligence on its own terms, and not to underestimate it. No doubt we have it there somewhere. — Janus

I just order a book that explains math and animals. If I could get to understanding math at least as well as a dog I will have achieved something while I sit at home with COVID.

I hope we always have a math thread to sustain my interest in math.

Of course I don't really know you and you should consider the following a matter of speculation on my part. If there is something that resonates with you it might be worthwhile to consider it more, if not I won't be offended if you tell me you can't relate to what I say. That said...

I don't think IQ works the way you think. We all have different constellations of cognitive strengths and weaknesses, with the consequence that learning some things may be harder or easier for us than for others. It seems plausible to me that math just doesn't come as easy for you as it does for some or even most. There is no failure on your part in that. Furthermore, it sound to me like the results of what you have learned are beautiful, and I hope you can be less hard on yourself. — wonderer1

Thank you so much for your concern about my feelings. That is something lacking in forums and yet science is making us aware of how important our emotions are and that we are healthier and happier when we reach out to others. And your nice words make me want to try even harder. I have math games I can put in my computer and I can give some time to using them. If we kept a running thread about math, the social aspect might help me stay motivated.

The weird thing is I am fascinated by math. I have books and DVD's about math. I want to learn the language of math and I understand learning a language is one way to keep our mental powers as we age. And oh shit, I am in trouble. Your encouragement led to looking for books and I have to have at least 2 of them. These are some thrift books offerings...

The Language of Mathematics: Making the Invisible Visible
by Keith Devlin
"The great book of nature," said Galileo, "can be read only by those who know the language in which it was written. And this language is mathematics." In The Language of Mathematics, award-winning author Keith Devlin reveals the vital role mathematics plays in our eternal quest to understand who we are and the world we live in. More than just the study of numbers, mathematics provides us with the eyes to recognize and describe the hidden...

The Math Instinct: Why You're a Mathematical Genius (Along with Lobsters, Birds, Cats, and Dogs)
by Keith Devlin

There are two kinds of math: the hard kind and the easy kind. The easy kind, practiced by ants, shrimp, Welsh corgis -- and us -- is innate. What innate calculating skills do we humans have? Leaving aside built-in mathematics, such as the visual system, ordinary people do just fine when faced with mathematical tasks in the course of the day. Yet when they are confronted with the same tasks presented as "math," their accuracy often drops. But if we have innate mathematical ability, why do we have to teach math and why do most of us find it so hard to learn? Are there tricks or strategies that the ordinary person can do to improve mathematical ability? Can we improve our math skills by learning from dogs, cats, and other creatures that "do math"? The answer to each of these questions is a qualified yes. All these examples of animal math suggest that if we want to do better in the formal kind of math, we should see how it arises from natural mathematics. From NPR's "Math Guy" -- The Math Instinct will provide even the most number-phobic among us with confidence in our own mathematical abilities. This description may be from another edition of this product.

In one of my sets of college lectures, the professor can talk about knots for at least an hour. This is using math to understand the unseen, such as to explore DNA with math.

Anti-life discussions (personal or otherwise) will be merged below. Please join this discussion rather than starting any new threads on this theme. — Baden

That really bites! I usually avoid threads that are too long. I really don't care what all the important people here have to say about anything. If I want to participate in a discussion of something, I want that to be my experience, not your only spoken thoughts. My thoughts and your reaction to them is what makes being here fun. If all I want is knowledge, I will buy a book that is highly recommended and read that. I do not come to forums and look for subjects to read that were closed discussions 5 years ago. If any of you have written books I should read, let me know.

I get that, but how does one differentiate between all the threads of argument dealing with the subject? — schopenhauer1

Loose one's memory, then each time is the first time and new things can be discovered. I just called old age purgatory but I am also enjoying, thinking, and rethinking things and noticing changes and new awareness. What really matters is if am enjoying the moment.

New people are constantly coming into the arguments and really can't we treat each day as a new day? It really sucks to be enjoying a thread and then reading the subject has already been covered and a grumpy demand that the discussion end. If someone doesn't want to cover the subject again, just stay out of the discussion but there is no reason to ruin everyone else's fun. Especially not a newcomer's first-time experience of the subject. We can not be a part of the past discussions, only the present ones.

only you know if there is anyway to close the rifts in your own family. — universeness

Aging can help. I should leave each individual in my family a personal letter they can read when I die and hopefully keep to read again when they are old and enter the purgatory of old age. That time when our lives are behind us and all that is left is the memories and a need to make peace with our lives.

I appreciate my grandmother so much more today than when I was young and rushed away from home to have my own life. I kept in touch with family but lived far from family.

But I think animals have a sense of number — Janus

That is only awareness of quantity. It is nothing like recognizing numbers as a code and bits of information that can help us understand the universe. It is not like the ability to use origami to understand how nature works.

That comes from a video about a father and son, both mathematicians, discovering how much we have to learn of nature by studying origami. And the ability of work with that kind of information can be transferred in genes. That is, the ability to do math or play the piano can come in our genes. That is true for dogs and humans. :lol: I did not get the gene.

Rational thought or the cognition, the apprehension of pattern, it is grounded in? Animals obviously recognize forms. Should we say they are rational? — Janus

Here is an explanation of rational

Rational behavior is used to describe a decision-making process that results in the optimal level of benefit, or alternatively, the maximum amount of utility. https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/career-map/sell-side/capital-markets/rational-behavior/#:~:text=What%20is%20Rational%20Behavior%3F,highest%20amount%20of%20personal%20satisfaction

.

Animals can problem solve. Some do it better than others. Dogs are amazing. They are the only animal that recognizes we point at something, it should go see what we are pointing at. This is one of the reasons they are good hunting partners. However, not all dogs get it. Wolves do not pick up the cue to check out what we are pointing it. Dogs that come from a line of domesticated dogs can be brilliant in figuring out human behavior and how to play the human for all the human is worth. That ability can make the difference between being a street dog or attaching to a human who provides food and shelter.

That information comes from shows about dogs.

Did you communicate this message with numbers? — Apustimelogist

Can we learn more by using math than by using words? I have not communicated anything with math but computers do not use words to compute. And I am sure my failure to understand math keeps my IQ relatively low.

How about you? Traveled much? — BC

No. I know the West Coast of the US from Washington to California. :lol: As a newly wed in the 60's my X took us to live in Newport, Oregon. I thought he had taken me to the end of the world. People were still chopping their own wood and heating their homes with it. There was no live theater nor very many signs of civilization. :lol:

He preferred small towns, the bars, and the ladies who took him home. :lol: I wanted to be in the city! I sure wish we had the Internet back in the day. I can handle anything as long as I can come to forums like this one and get the intellectual stimulus I crave. I have engaged in forums since dial-up. I love to pounder our past and how wonderful it would have been for women stuck on a farm far anyone with her children and chores. If only they had the internet.

And today when I watch the mothers in war zones being interviewed, I am horrified by their living conditions which were not that good before the war and made impossible to survive once the wars broke out. I wonder where their governments are, that like Ukraine, should be able to ask the US for armes so that they may defend themselves and restore order. How can the rest of the world ignore their suffering and believe what is happening to these women and children does not effect them.

In case it is not obvious, my world view is based on being a mother. I share this with all women in all countries and then later in life, I see older women struggling to care for their husbands and needing care themselves that they may not get because of how the men and women see their different roles. I think women around the world share much in common.

I hope that you cope with the virus and rules. Part of the problem which I see is a lack of compassion for those who become unwell. It can come down to ideas of protecting others with lack of concern for those who are unwell with the virus.

On another level, the breakdown of the virus by those who experience it, like all forms of suffering, may be the apocalyptic breakdown for all kinds of personal transformation. — Jack Cummins

I turned in paperwork today and my Supervisor made it clear she did not want me to stay. A few years ago, she got COVID from her grandson and developed a very serious heart condition. In my group of people, there is a lot of compassion. Mostly my life is full of older people who have developed a lot of compassion because of going through hard times themselves. I sure would not want to expose my Supervisor to a new strain of COVID and she wants to protect everyone.

I am guilty of avoiding people who are different and trying to stay within my comfort zone because I feel vulnerable in my later years. I love my life that is senior centers, senior housing, and senior nutrition sites. Now that I am thinking on this, I see it separates me from my family. I think our different times in history give us different perspectives.

I think I was about 8 when I decided if Christians knew God's truth they would all agree and there would be only one denomination. Therefore, if I want to know God, I have to study what everyone believes of God since the beginning of religion and around the world. Like the Roman's did, after learning all we can, we choose what the most people believe is true and decide what is God's truth from there.

However, I have since learned science requires us to observe what we wish to study and test what we think we know. Since no one directly experiences God, that is not possible. Even if I could interview Him, I don't think I would understand Him any more that I would understand Einstien and his explanations. I just do not know enough to understand much of anything.

Maybe if we lived 300 years I might know enough to understand God.

I would say you are explicitly incorrect, or are misusing hte term Fascism which is quite specific, and not just an indicator of violent governmental enforcement. — AmadeusD

Of course, you have studied bureaucratic order, public policy and administration, and know what you are talking about. But then you would be unusual. Not many people find that area of study interesting. But some who understand the fascist relationship with economics might not agree with you.

Fascists have commonly sought to eliminate the autonomy of large-scale capitalism and relegate it to the state. However, fascism does support private property rights and the existence of a market economy and very wealthy individuals. Thus, fascist ideology included both pro-capitalist and anti-capitalist elements.

Economics of fascism - Wikipedia

However, someone as good-looking as your avatar doesn't have to know everything. :grin:

That can be a very good thing. It can be what leads to an epiphany. — wonderer1

Oh yeah. I have epiphanies often and that is why I engage in forums. However, when I am busy with life I don't have much time to think. When reality demands we be in the here and now, we have an epiphany and immediately snap back to the moment in time that demands our attention. But when nothing demands my attention my brain can get flooded with thoughts. If anyone experiences this, how are such moments best managed?

That leads me to another wonderful quote...

Bertrand Russell - The whole problem with the world is...

BrainyQuote
https://www.brainyquote.com › quotes › bertrand_russe...
Bertrand Russell Quotes ... The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

One way to avoid Covid is to shun other people, who are nothing but hell, according to J. P. Sartre. Fuck Sartre.

Kant asked, "What can I know? What ought I to do? What can I hope?"

There are clear positive answers to the first two questions, which we can at least hope is the case. — BC

Those are some interesting questions that fit the spirit of questioning my mind. What are your answers?

With Hall and his interest in cultures in mind, I googled if Kant traveled and got this...

Kant is certainly among the five most influential philosophers in history. A curious case, this Kant. They say that travel broadens the mind, but Kant never in his whole life traveled more than ten miles from his home city of Königsberg (now Kaliningrad).

Kant 200 Years On | Issue 49 - Philosophy Now

That is amazing, isn't it?

When I read your outpost I missed seeing the bit about you having Covid, so hope that you get well soon.

Sometimes, after all the rules and regulations, it as if Covid is ignored almost. It is still around, alongside so many issues which were brought on by the pandemic/lockdown, which have been the trigger for so much psychological and societal breakdown. — Jack Cummins

I was not aware of how complacent we have gotten! Some stores don't even carry masks any more. I was freaking out just trying to find a store that have masks and the store clerks thought I was a little nuts until I said I have COVID. Then they were glad I was wearing a mask, but it was a used one that I left in the sun to sanitize. We do what we can. :mask:

It has spread rapidly because we are tricked into thinking it is only a cold. I thought I had recovered from a cold and went in public. Then a friend called and said he had COVID so I got tested. By then I had exposed people. If he had one day early that would have been avoided.

I hope this is my last day of isolation. I have 2 test kits and will stay home until I get a negative result.

"The exciting thing about mathematics and science and music and literature is what they can tell us about the workings of the human mind. For these disciplines are literally models (extensions) of at least certain parts of the mind. Just as the knife cuts but does not chew, while the lens does only a portion of what the eye can do, extensions are reductionist in their capability. No matter how hard it tries, the human race can never fully replace what was left out of extensions in the first place. Also, it is just as important to know what is left out of a given extension system as it is to know what the system will do. Yet the extension-omissions side is frequently overlooked.”
― Edward T. Hall

Interesting idea. Logicians might be able to do this, but math people use words and symbols. I have never heard of a math research paper written in math symbols only. Thinking in mathematical terms is common amongst my colleagues, but even there one talks to oneself with words. — jgill

Perfect! I wish I could know what you know through experience with those who think mathematically. I am quite sure some things can not be communicated with math, but I am not sure exactly what divides the world of math and human language, but I suspect AI does not get high scores for comprehending being human. Being human is an experience and that is outside of logic. We are not predictable machines. Are barely inside the laws of nature, compared to the rest of the animal kingdom.

How many books have you read about why math is deemed a very important thinking tool? What justifies us taking you seriously as an authority on communication or math?

Sounds like Early Wittgenstein's picture theory of language.

What if we did not use words, but communicated with math?
— Athena

How would that work, basically? — Lionino

Good gravy, I do not know! As I just said in another thread, there is so much I do not know and didn't even know I didn't know so much. I swear I am at a time in my life when every day I feel more and more ignorant of everything I do not know and absolutely paniced to figure out a way to reduce this ignorance.

I sure respect Socrates right now and I would bet my bank account, he did not know how much he did
not know until he got old. :lol: Remember when we were teenagers and thought we knew it all?

I can barely imagine how it is to think in terms of mathical code. To see H2O and know that means water, is special. To think "water" and immediately think where does it come from and where does it go and why is it important and is it clean and safe to drink, etc., etc. is absolutely amazing! No other animal on the planet has this capability. Yes, animals can communicate but they do not come close to the mental activity of which we are capable.

You made me look for a book on the subject and there are several. The one I want most is over $100. :scream: How sad that we leave people ignorant by overpricing books. But I am thinking if my life falls apart and I have to reorganize it. I should buy all the related books and study them and then attempt to organize a club of interested people.

You do know most of us (US) are totally ignorant of the rest of the world, right? Forgive me, I know nothing of your elector system, nor that there was anything to learn of it. This is a grievous error for someone committed to democracy.

We had a chance to vote on having a better voting system and the only media-type information we got is the new system was never tried. I knew that was a lie but I did not know how big the lie is. God help me, there is so much I do not know and so much to learn.

I can see that blowback coming with the present US support of Israel. That could have played a strong roll in removing Biden from the Democratic ticket. He lost me on that one and if the Republicans offered a better candidate than Trump they could get me if Kamala continues to announce her support of Israel.

This is not anti-Semitic as Arabs are also Semitic but it is anti-Zionism. Zionism has been the cause of the fighting from the beginning. It is not a democracy like the US and if it were the problem would have been resolved democratically.

If you start with the question, "what is information?" the way to go is to survey existing uses of the word. Another approach would be to do what Shannon and other researchers did, which is to start with a specific problem, something that matters, and then see whether a concept with a family resemblance to "information" fits. But starting with the answer, before you even understand the question, is backwards. — SophistiCat

I am reading about this matter of what is information. I am reading Rudy Rucker's book "Mind Tools".
He writes- "Anyone at the receiving end of a communication is involved with "information processing." I may communicate with you by writing this book, but you need to organize the book's information in terms of mental categories that are significant for you. You must process the information."

Spoken and written communication are, if you stop to think about it, fully as remarkable as telepathy would be. How is it that you can know my thoughts at all, or I yours? You have a thought, you make some marks on a piece of paper, you mail the paper to me, I look at it, and by some mysterious communication algorithm, I construct in my own brain a pattern that has the same feel as your original thought. Information!"

He goes on to explain numbers, space (and patterns that create forms), logic, and finally infinity and information. Problem is I know so little about math this book might as well be written in Greek. I am unprepared to understand what I am reading. There is so much I need to know before I can understand.

What if we did not use words, but communicated with math? I know mathematicians can do that, but what if from the beginning we all did? I am sure my IQ would be much higher if I could do that. And I wonderful how thinking in mathematical terms might change our emotional experience of life.

I want to acknowledge your post. What do you think of Rank Choice Voting?

What is ranked choice voting?

RCV is a process that allows voters to rank candidates for a particular office in order of preference. Consider a race where four candidates – A, B, C, and D – are running for a single seat such as Governor. In an election utilizing RCV, voters simply rank the candidates 1-4, with the candidate ranked as “1” being the voter’s highest preference for Governor. If a candidate is the first choice of more than half the voters, that candidate wins the election. But if no candidate gets the majority of the vote, the candidate with the least amount of support is eliminated, the second choice support for that eliminated candidate are redistributed, and this process continues until a candidate wins more than half of the vote.

For example, let’s say a voter prefers, in ranked order, candidate B, C, D, and then A. But, no candidate receives a majority of the votes in the first round, and candidate B receives the least first choice support. Candidate B is eliminated, and support for candidate B are distributed to the voter’s second choice, which in this case is candidate C. This process repeats until a candidate has a majority of the vote.
https://campaignlegal.org/democracyu/accountability/ranked-choice-voting?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh-zMpvaIiAMVug6tBh0H6DBYEAAYASAAEgJI6PD_BwE — DemocracyU Accountability

In almost every election for several years I wanted to vote for someone who is not a Democrat nor a Republican but I didn't because always it is either one of the two parties that win, and the risk of the worst one winning is too high. We have to change this very corrupt two-party system. We have to open the possibility for someone outside of the two-party system to win.

Well, you're an American, right? What else would they say?

We'll be in power and we'll not care a shit about you, but keep voting for us.

Perhaps that would be at least honest? — ssu

Neither one of the US candidates appeals to me. The government is to govern things, not run them.
Both candidates are fighting over who sits in the driver's seat. But what needs to be regulated and how can that be done?

I believe everyone has good intentions but not enough knowledge for good judgments.

Donald Trump might now indeed be what you say. But he is a sign of something much bigger, much more powerful, more pervasive than any one single person is or could be. Even if he doesn't get reelected, it's quite possible that someone just like him, and worse, will be. Because this is what America is all about. — baker

What is America all about?

Yes, I see this. But there is a tenuous, speculative connection to fascism involved in the analysis. Is there something deeper being indicated here? — AmadeusD

We know fascism for its violence rather than its bureaucratic and economic order. I am offering a link about how popular fascism was in the 30's. I have chosen just one paragraph that got my attention...

Certain British intellectuals were perhaps the most smitten of anyone by fascism. George Bernard Shaw announced in 1927 that his fellow “socialists should be delighted to find at last a socialist [Mussolini] who speaks and thinks as responsible rulers do.”4 He helped form the British Union of Fascists whose “Outline of the Corporate State,” according to the organization’s founder, Sir Oswald Mosley, was “on the Italian Model.” While visiting England, the American author Ezra Pound declared that Mussolini was “continuing the task of Thomas Jefferson.”5 https://mises.org/mises-wire/rise-economic-fascism-america — Mises Wire • Thomas J. DiLorenzo

There are so many ways this discussion could go. Always humans have worked for social security and we have tried many different ways of meeting the needs of the people. Fascism is one of them and its bureaucratic model was adopted by the US in 30s when Hoover and Roosevelt worked together to design big government. This shifted individual power to governmental power, and with this comes promises that our candidates will meet all our needs. Trump goes so far as to claim we will never have to vote again if he is elected because he will resolve all our problems for us. Kamala Harris promises to raise minimum wages but I don't know how this can happen without inflation and closing businesses that depend on cheap labor. I don't think we know enough to make good judgments and this thread is about global ramifications.

Through this forum, I have learned what I consider a fascist order is throughout Europe and this must be so because of the competition for world resources. We must have strong governments to compete and that is not the democracy that came out of the Enlightenment. Technology is changing our lives a lot and that includes the power of governments. Elements of fascism and for sure technology make a government strong. Education is very important to all this.

Nevermind the fascist point. I had something else in mind. :yikes: — Wheatley

But if we want to understand reality perhaps we should discuss what fascism has to do with the strength of the US. The US is not the democracy it defended in world wars. Both the Republicans and Democrats are promising to take care of us, leaving us nothing to do but obey and be thankful we are so well cared for. Tocqueville 1831.

We're on the same page regarding the interrelationship of: science, art, ecology. Now, in this conversation, I want to detail in some stuff that talks in a rational and general manner about what the differences are between the two titans: science/art, and how those modal differences are mediated by the unifying synchro-mesh of ecology.
a day ago — ucarr

Can you turn that into a four-dimensional pentahedron? That is a sincere question, not an attempt to inform anyone of anything. Here is the deal for me, I am uncomfortable with either/or arguments. either or arguments are mostly this and that. We live in a 4-dimensional reality so maybe we want to consider four dimensional patterns in statements of truth?

I heard, in India, it is assumed when we speak of one thing, we speak of its opposite. In the west we are very materialistic and seem to ignore movement and change. I Ching the Chinese Book of Change always includes the change. It takes into consideration the unfolding of seasons and climate. At times the climate will favor change and at other times the climate will prevent change.

I do not understand math but I keep trying. It is clear to me that the failure to understand math keeps my IQ low and I am qualified to discuss my opinion but not to participate in arguments based on empirical information and math. Without an intelligent thought of my own, I will quote from the book "Mind Tools" by Rucker.

"Number, space, logic- the most basic concepts of mathematics. Why are they so fundamental? Because they reflect essential features of our minds and the world around us. Mathematics has evolved from certain simple and universal properties of the world and the human brain. That our mathematics is effective for manipulating concepts is perhaps no more surprising than that our legs and good at walking."......

Rucker argues "It is evident that the thought forums of dyad, triad, and tetrad are objectively given archetypes. They correspond to the very basic numbers 2, 3, 4. The number 5 is also quite basic, and we might suppose there to be a thought form consisting of five related concepts. Let's call this form a pentad. One way of drawing a pentad is as the "quincunx" a legitimate dictionary word meaning "an arrangement of five things with one at each corner and one in the middle of a square.

This is, of course, a flattened picture. Just as the quaternity takes its truest form if we let it pop up into a three-dimensional tetrahedron, it turns out that a pentad takes its most natural shape if we let it spring out into a four-dimensional "pentahedron".

What do you think? for me that relates to so many other sources of math information that I have a hard time understanding.

The essentially difference between the sciences and the humanities is cross-culturalism. Science, as a method, is not culture bound (in the general sense). It's motivation is simplicity of theory, not outcomes.

Everything in the humanities is culture-bound (in the general sense) and outcomes are the policy-driving forces. These aren't problems, though. — AmadeusD

This is impressive thinking. :up: