No country's actual history lives up to its mythology, never mind its patriotic hype.
If it's any consolation, the US civil service ranks 11th in effectiveness (this year - it's been in the top 10 before) and Germany was way down at 24th in 2017. This is interesting. — Vera Mont

:gasp:

Another very important exception is when we get into any origin of the universe proposal. It is not currently known whether or not the origin of the universe was causal. — universeness

Of course, you are right there. I think most of the time we need to be okay with "I don't know" an unknown. We should never be too sure of ourselves, but neither should we accept myths as God's word and a rational explanation of life. That is going too far in not asking the right questions and attempting to answer them.

I think it is and even if our approach to such proves to be forever asymptotic, then so be it, that remains the goal. — universeness

This disagreement seems pretty easy to end. Have you served on committees? I can not imagine anyone serving on a committee that needs to make serious decisions believing millions of people can argue something until they have a consensus. No one would enjoy being on a ship without a captain and an agreement that the captain has the authority to make decisions.

Important to this thread is there is no time after an invasion to argue about the response. The response needs to occur as soon as possible. In the past, all of government in the US was strong individuals holding the authority to make decisions. We could vote them in or out of office but the bulk of the decisions were made without including everyone in the decision-making and our forefathers attempted to limit governing power with a system of checks and balances that is totally broken now because we ended education for democracy and have a large percent of citizens who reject democracy.

Autocracy is very efficient. Democracy is not. Each manifests a different culture.

Why? You are an honest person Athena, are you not? — universeness

:lol: I try to be honest but I am often confused and frequently don't know enough and I am becoming increasingly aware of how strongly my emotions affect what I think. I feel like I am on friendly grounds with most posters here, so when I feel offended I check myself, however, this does not happen with everyone. Occasionally I think a person is being intentionally offensive and don't stop to question that.
How we feel in relation to others really matters and hope all of us agree on this. This is one of the most important points I wish was on everyone's mind. How we feel matters, so attack ideas but not the person. Do not intentionally make cutting remarks. That destroys the very foundation of democracy.

I find any notion of personal superiority between human beings, vile and disgusting and I will fight against such notions in every way I can, until I no longer exist. — universeness

I love your comment! :heart: Can we reframe that? It is not the person we are judging but the behavior. As my statement above explains I do not judge everyone equally but have an emotional reaction that determines my behavior. When I think I am on friendly terms with someone and feel offended I check myself, however, when it seems obvious to me that someone is intentionally being offensive, I protect myself by avoiding that person. Some humans improve our lives and others damage us and we need to know which is which. :grimace: OMG this is a difficult subject! It is so complex! My son-in-law is a very good guy and he has also been a very, very bad guy. We need to judge the behavior, not the person. Help am I making sense?

And I am making that argument because it goes with judging my own behavior. Am I being the person I want to be? What is a good person? What does it mean to be civilized? How can we have the best discussions and make our best contribution to life? Not a superior person but superior thoughts and actions. God knows I have made some really bad choices and have my share of regrets. The virtue of forgiveness is very important, especially in old age when we are shocked by how little we knew and feel bad about all the errors.

Many 'real' aristos, rather than via your notional and fabled 'noble' imagery of aristocracy, were serious scumbags. The French response to their tyranny was completely understandable. Unfortunately, they took their response tooooooooo far (Israel is repeating that bad mistake now, imo) and ended up with a butcher like Napoleon in charge. Generations of French were slaughtered as a result. But at least they destroyed the aristos. Now they have the more hidden, but as nefarious, French super-rich to deal with, but they are a global phenomenon that are a global scale problem, rather than merely a French one. — universeness

What is a scumbag? Are you superior to a scumbag? :lol: I laugh because what we are talking about is so complex. Athens had gods and heroes. The gods were not perfect. They did not know everything and they did not have control over everything like the God of Abraham. Can you imagine having an imperfect god who does not control everything? Now what is a hero? What are the virtues that make it possible for us to do great things? Is being superior because of making an effort to be superior, to be a hero, a bad thing? I am dealing with a family that rejects everything I am saying here and they can barely afford the basics of rent and food. They are victims and have no idea how to stop being victims. :broken: I hope I can do better in forums than I have done with my own family. My son learned of the Greek gods when he was in school but the teacher had zero understanding of why they are important. I am in a philosophy forum because in my desperation to do better in life I found philosophy and the ancient Greeks.

In a democracy, we can all be aristocrats. If one's life is totally impoverished hopefully that person can get to the library and start learning. Hopefully, everyone can pick themselves up and learn of the virtues that we need to get through life. :cry: Our children need to learn this before they can take advantage of an education, and thanks to education for technology the parents don't know the value of this knowledge, not even their teachers know. Our young are being prepared to enter the Borg. They are not being prepared for life! They think if they live in poverty that is the whole of life and they are victims and they have no clue how to improve their lives. Life becomes a reaction based on what one feels at the moment, and if you are mad enough, pick a gun and feel the power you have to kill everyone in sight. There that will show them! We need to educate our young for life.

Yes, diversity can be very beneficial. The gods and goddesses were very different. They each had their own point of view and they argued a lot! That is how our primate intellect grew and grew and has us thinking thoughts far beyond the thinking of days gone by. However, the captain has the authority.

Oh, oh Star Trek. Kirk was the John Wayne of outer space and Picard is the Group think generation. For our symposium let's have plenty of food and drink, and watch Star Trek, and enjoy discussing the ideas brought up in the shows.

:hearts:

Unfortunately, it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. No… a wolf posing as a loyal guard dog.
And I imagine many investment advisors are recommending weapons manufacturers as a sure thing. — 0 thru 9

Hey, I think you may understand what I am talking about. Can you expand on what you said? Do you know what merit hiring and advancement has to do with today's changed organization?
Right after WWII, President Eisenhower wrote a letter to Germany thanking them for their contribution to democracy. We adopted the German (Prussian) models of bureaucracy and education. That radically changed the US. My words are failing to explain the importance of this. Can you do better? Please, help if you can.

I think once our military-industrial complex was established
— Athena
Concord, 1775? https://www.history.com/news/what-was-the-shot-heard-round-the-world — Vera Mont

Absolutely NOT! I want an emoticon banging its head on a wall. Our governing organization in 1775 didn't come close to the Prussian Military Industrial Complex that now defines the US and all modern industrial countries today.

What is the best way for me to deal with this problem of my words having absolutely no meaning to those who read them? Everything that I believe is important rests on people understanding what the Prussian Military Industrial Complex has to do with our culture today, our organization, our economy, and how we experience ourselves as human beings. Our understanding of the relationship between education and our culture, therefore our democracy, is crucial and I am totally failing to make my point.
:broken:

Why would Calvinism have any effect on that arrangement? The elite are never constrained by the limits and demands of religion: strict adherence is for the hoi polloi. As is the infamous "work ethic". — Vera Mont

Indentured servitude is a form of labor where an individual is under contract to work without a salary to repay an indenture or loan within a certain timeframe. Indentured servitude was popular in the United States in the 1600s as many European immigrants worked in exchange for the price of passage to America.

Indentured Servitude: Definition, History, and Controversy. The Catholic church did not encourage the development of capitalism. Spain and Portugal were established in South America and it remains mostly Catholic and poor. While today the division of Catholics and Protestants is not obviously an economic one, in the past the economic divide was defining. While all of Protestantism advanced a more democratic economic system that was especially true for Calvinism which became Puritanism. According to Calvin, only a select few will go to heaven and they do so because God chose them. This odd belief system led to Puritans trying to prove to themselves and everyone else that they were chosen, by accumulating wealth. You know, as God blessed kings with wealth and slaves.

Weber wrote that capitalism in Northern Europe evolved when the Protestant (particularly Calvinist) ethic influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own enterprises and engaging in trade and the accumulation of wealth for investment. In other words, the Protestant work ethic was an important force behind the unplanned and uncoordinated emergence of modern capitalism. — Wikipedia

The Puritans sure as blazes were not inclusive folks. Unless a person strictly met their standards, that proved they were not "chosen" but oddly if they were chosen they could do whatever they wanted like Nietzsche's Superman. And I am sure most of their slaves were indentured servants.

Indentured servitude is a form of labor where an individual is under contract to work without a salary to repay an indenture or loan within a certain timeframe. Indentured servitude was popular in the United States in the 1600s as many European immigrants worked in exchange for the price of passage to America.

Indentured Servitude: Definition, History, and Controversy — By CARLA TARDI Updated September 19, 2022 Reviewed by MICHAEL J BOYLE

Back in the day, Martin Luther believed it was necessary to have witch hunts identifying those possessed by Satan and demons, and he also believed God determines who would be maters and who would be slaves. The social order was much closer to the Old Testament- Hebrew or Jewish social ordering dependent on who the parents are. As a person inherited the father's land, he also inherited his father's slaves, and his fathers position. The Greeks used the merit system when assigning people jobs and the Jews and Greeks had a little war because of this.

The rebellion started as a guerrilla movement in the Judean countryside, raiding towns and terrorizing Greek officials far from direct Seleucid control, but it eventually developed a proper army capable of attacking the fortified Seleucid cities.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Maccabean_Revolt — wikipedia

Yipes too many words again. There could be a whole thread just to explore the relationship between religion and economics. This relationship includes who is a master and who is a servant and what our relationships are all about. If we want to understand democracy, then perhaps we should know more about the New Social order and the reasoning for it. I really appreciate your explanation of economic matters because it gives me an understanding of the government giving railroads land on both sides of the track. The whole notion of a king distributing land as he sees fit has always mystified me. I can understand how the people who benefit from this distribution of land go along with it, but there are many more people who did not benefit from this and why would they buy into it?

:cry: Too much to think about- like the Native American women and some in China who assumed they owned their homes and they ruled. Oh man, I like to think we are in the Resurrection and it is geologists, anthropologists, and related sciences resurrecting our history and our job is to rethink everything!

As our Declaration of Independence says "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. " Our understanding of Justice today is totally different from any past understanding of it and it is time for a "Quantum Shift in the Global Brain".

Ok, I see what you mean. I certainly have much more time for the Greek atomists than I do for their 'silly' theists. — universeness

:heart: Why does it all have to be so difficult? The argument for all things having a cause is self-evident. Except when we get into quantum physics things get a little crazy.

I don't think a fully representative democracy is possible and I question if it is even desirable. Now I feel cornered and need to confess I am aristocratic. An aristocrat is defined like this....

1. a member of the aristocracy; a noble
2. a person who has the manners or qualities of a member of a privileged or superior class
3. a person who advocates aristocracy as a form of government

I was not born into nobility but my understanding of democracy is that we can all achieve the manners and qualities of an aristocrat. Arguing in favor of an aristocratic form of government is, to me, the equivalent of the merit system. I am not a competitive person and I have no problem volunteering to support representatives to hold the positions that give them power and authority so I don't have to. All of those representatives are to serve us. We can vote them out of office if they don't.

I think you and I share agreements but we have different points of view and this is excellent for democracy because it is the area of disagreement that opens the opportunity for greater understanding. It is "yes but-" and the picture becomes bigger.

One area that can seem to be an argument is how much authority should those in the seats of authority have. On a small scale direct democracy may be the best, but on a national level that is insane! When too many people have the decision-making power, nothing gets done. But if we break this power up with many democratic industries, and democratic institutions such as schools, hospitals, and municipal government, then the people have control where the industry and institution affect their lives. It is not the federal government making blanket decisions for everyone.

I think we need to give the distribution of power and authority more thought. Decisions that are based on science might be best coming from the federal level. Decisions that affect only a small group of people need to be made by those affected. Parents should hold the power of authority over their children's education, but there also needs to be a way to inform the parents of why one decision may be better than another. Decisions should not be based on ignorance and feelings.

Indeed! I didn't actually miss that. The legacy of royal land-grants, aristocratic families and fortunes founded on preferential trade with other British colonies.
Monarchy and moneyarchy. — Vera Mont

Whoo, that is very convoluted and worthy of contemplation. Would you happen to know how Calvinism is tangled up with all of this? If you do, I suggest we buy a bottle of fine wine and spend at least one evening unraveling why the American economy did so well compared to the Spanish colonies.

As I understand it, the immigrants who went to the kings domain in the Southern part of the New Land were out to find riches and those who went North wanted to manifest saints and perfect communities. Calvinism made the accumulation of wealth essential to this pursuit of heaven on earth and that might be a blessing to us. If it were not for our economic development we could be like a third nation where extremely few people have any power.

Ah, there is a very important question. I was thinking if we all shared a good understanding of democracy the power of the people would be so strong we would not fear an enemy invasion.
— Athena
Weeelll - that rather depends on how many of the nations you've helped arm will constitute the "enemy". And whether the ensuing war gives people time to decide how they feel about it.

@0 thru 9 helped me clarify my sense of purpose. I think once our military-industrial complex was established it was misused resulting in the problem of which you speak and that the creation of the military-industrial complex means we fought every war for nothing because we are what we defended our democracy against. This has always been clear to me, but O thru 9 helped me clarify my purpose is to revive the American Spirit that I believe came with being a democracy. That is, the thinking began in Athenians and was revived during the Reannance. We need another Reannance because we sure as blazes did not begin with the desire to be a military-industrial complex! Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and if our military-industrial complex is destroyed in a war, that would be unfortunate but we might consider we are what we defended our democracy against, so how much does matter if our military-industrial complex is brought to an end?

Also what makes dominant cultures more or less resistant to assimilating minor differences in speech, religion, art and domestic arrangements. We seem pretty quick to accommodate new foods.

I am looking at the US today and I don't think we have a culture anymore.
— Athena
Like ourselves, you never did have one culture. You had many, with people in each region or social circumstance being aware of only their own. Over time, people in the dominant ethnic group adopted some aspects of African, French and Hispanic cultures; the middle class affected some working class customs and vice versa; rural and folk moved to cities; the North and South imitated some of each other's behaviour; in cities with large immigrant populations, Italian, Irish, Nordic, Russian and Yiddish symbology and folklore crept into Anglo-American art, homes and social life. Motion pictures and television tend to homogenize these accidental overlaps and exchanges into American popular culture.
It seems to enjoy considerable success abroad, as well.

I am sharing a lot of agreements with people my age and we do not recognize the values of younger people today as the values we shared in the past. Walter Cronkite's generation of reporters was not as reporters are today. When our local paper the Register-Guard printed its earliest papers the journalists actually thought they were defending our democracy. It may be futile for me write on and on about the changes but I will stand by the belief that education did make us a strong and united nation as Jefferson thought education should do. This changed in 1958 and I do not think today's social media is transmitting a culture that is healthy for a civilization.

If something happened that destroyed our lives as they are today, I don't think democracy would survive.
— Athena

It'll always have Sweden! In fact, atm, it's healthier in Germany than in the USA. Anyway, the concept isn't going anywhere.

The concept is dying in the US. Perhaps I shouldn't let that trouble me because the concept has a good chance of surviving in other countries. However, that will not do squat for my grandchildren and their children.

I think there has been some misunderstanding / crossed lines here. My posted sentence of:
The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause.
— universeness
was just a quote from the link provided by 180proof with:

on what basis then, universeness, would you refute its proof that this 'same – one – mind' is God (the PSR)?
— 180 Proof

His PSR link was about The principle of sufficient reason. My response was to a point he was making regarding theists, the claim that god exists, and the resulting burden of proof, it did not relate to my exchange with you. — universeness

Interesting clarification. I could be wrong but I see the Greek philosophers standing behind the need for proofs. I see these philosophers standing behind the notion that things do not just appear out of nowhere but there is a cause for that appearance. That pits democracy against Christianity and a God that is not ruled by the laws of nature but makes things appear on a whim. Today I will create Satan, whoops that didn't go so well. I think I will try creating a man and woman from mud. Whoops that didn't go so well. Those Bible stories do not go so well with believing there is a cause for everything. An explanation of evolution gives us causes.

If that does not belong with what you are talking about, I am sorry and will withdraw from the subject of gods and causes.

I guess you didn't bother to read – — 180 Proof

You are correct. I have limited time and need to be selective about how I use it.

Odds are that it is not the ordinary average human, their families and communities that are priority. — 0 thru 9

Oh but come look at my old school books. In my grandmother's day of teaching, teachers thought it was their purpose to defend democracy in the classroom and this meant helping each child discover his/her interests and talents so they could make their best contribution to our civilization. We thought our greatness was all the individuals cooperating to get things done.

Our education was modeled after Athens's education for well-rounded individual growth and the American experience was self-actualization. When the 1958 education change was pushed through the system and my grandmother's way of disciplining children was not accepted so she quit her job and found another school. I am horrified today whenever a professional is treated like someone working on an assembly line. I am offended by the message that the phone call may be recorded to ensure things are being done correctly. If an employer does not trust the employee then the employer should drop that person and move on to an employee who is trusted.

Please, you are so perceptive, can you see how not trusting people to do a good job destroys morale and harms the employee, which goes on to harm the family and then the nation? If we can not self-actualize through our jobs, is there enough money to make us want to do our jobs?

When I was trained to be a supervisor using the democratic model, we were taught to be like coaches helping the employee to be the best s/he can be and preparing the individual for advancement. If something went wrong, the supervisor took responsibility for that, by checking to be sure all necessary information was communicated and understood. Again helping the person be the best s/he can be, which leads to positive feelings and those positive feelings come back to the family and flood the community. We can do this. When turned to civic action, it means resolving community problems or just doing fun things that build community relationships.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WITHOUT YOUR POST I COULD NOT THINK OR SAY THE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS? This is democracy working. Your ability to communicate what really matters moves our thinking in a positive direction. This is totally different from what some posters do. Posters who intentionally put us on the defensive make a valuable discussion impossible. When we are defending what we already said the thinking can not move on to the bigger picture. We can not get to rule by reason when we stubbornly disagree and find fault. However, when are in agreement we tend to move forward, and have positive feelings, and believe we can accomplish something. That high morale is the Spirit of America and the military mindset that has gripped our nation and taken over education, is killing the Spirit of America. The military-industrial complex is the enemy we defended our democracy against.

In doing what? Treating them all fairly and decently? Or have the immigrants done well in adapting to conditions and overcoming barriers?
So why admire non-adaptive Jews in Europe more than assimilated Italians in America? And why not admire non-adaptive Chinese in America for maintaining their identity? — Vera Mont

Ah, there is a very important question. I was thinking if we all shared a good understanding of democracy the power of the people would be so strong we would not fear an enemy invasion. Perhaps we can explore what makes people more or less willing to adopt the ways of other people?

Charles Sarolee wrote in his book "The Anglo-German Problem" that the Prussians do not have a culture. I am looking at the US today and I don't think we have a culture anymore. If something happened that destroyed our lives as they are today, I don't think democracy would survive. I think the rulers would become the few most powerful people and all the rest would become subject to their rule as is so in other countries. The cause of this is replacing education for good citizenship and democracy with education for technology.

But this breakdown is essential to change and hopefully, the changes will eventually be good changes. I really would like to replace the autocratic model of industry with a democratic one. An autocratic model of industry along with education for democracy could mean a quantum shift in our consciousness that would be very pleasant.

For all the good religion has done it has done just as much evil
— Athena

I agree, it's a net negative. Religion is pernicious. — universeness

I want to focus on what you said about knowing the cause of things and what that has to do with democracy. Especially when so many people were dying of COVID-19 in New York that they had to put their bodies in freezer trucks, the debate over wearing masks and vaccines was insane. What is the truth and how do we know it?

Never have I heard so much paranoid fear of our government controlling us. It is true our federal government is controlling more and more of our lives. A Military Industrial Complex controls every aspect of our lives and attempts to control the economy more than the government did in the past. Yet people are in denial of the US becoming a Military Industrial Complex in 1958 and people do not want to talk about that. So here is something lurking in the back of our consciousness and it emerges when, for purely scientific reasons our government tells us to wear masks. This paranoia is very damaging to how we react to events. It obviously leads to believing lies.

This is a cultural problem I am hoping to resolve. Trust is essential to everything and we need to restore that.

Stands for, but does not deliver.
Even if democracy were operational in the US, it would not be the reason for entering all of those wars, since the American form of government has never been under any outside threat. Every administration had its own reasons for embarking on a war or undeclared armed intervention in foreign affairs. In no case did those reasons have any bearing on the defence of their own democracy. And in no case was the polity consulted before taking the decision that would take many of their sons and lately daughters, nor were the lower ranks of the armed forces asked for their consent. — Vera Mont

You missed an important way our democracy is manifested. Democracy was a new social order. Monarchies were organized very differently. However, our Democracy was and is polluted by the order of a kingdom. It made perfect sense for the owner of a business to have control of the business, but when we shifted from farmers and craftspeople owning their businesses to industries, that was a good time to apply the democratic order to our economy. Obviously, that did not happen. The path we have followed is divisive, separating the halves from the have-nots, with landlords and employers exploiting humans and this could be even worse than slavery. Wow, this really makes a mess of democracy because that reality does not support liberty and justice nor the conditions for healthy families.

The Persian war left Athens flush with money and this money was spent on Athena's temple which was a tourist site teaching the world about new relationships and democracy. Money was spent on a university to also attract people from around the world as teachers and students. Government jobs were created so the people without land could earn enough to have a decent standard of living and time to indulge in government. But here we are in a New Land and with no experience with democracy. While things can be different, the consciousness is still the consciousness of kingdoms. Each man's home was his castle. The Bible the only book most people know about, explains kingdoms and slavery. Extremely few people were literate in Greek and Roman classics.

Education in the North advanced democracy and when the South realized Northern books were spreading a different culture than the one they wanted, they began printing their own books. As we spread across a frontier there were many challenges along with opportunities. It was a long time before those communities had schools and they did not come with all the books and supplies a good education requires. We seriously need to have a better appreciation of our lives being very primitive as late as 1950. WWII changed everything in huge ways! We are losing those pioneers who came west with the promise of homesteading. Now not only do we have a railroad that goes from one coast to another but we also have private cars and highways. Before all this, our primitive lives made the federal government almost non-existent. There is no way it had the organization to affect our lives as it does today. Our freedom and liberty was based on living miles away from anyone else and a social life that may have been limited to going to church. I know their stories because I visited some of them once a week until they died. Also because of my collection of books.

Just as we got to a point where every child could go to school and those schools had all the books and supplies and technology required for a good education today, we stopped preparing our young for democracy. I say too much and I may have completely failed to make my point.

What Tocqueville had to say about democracy in 1830 is very interesting. I wish we could all share this book. https://files.libertyfund.org/files/2288/Tocqueville_1532.04_LFeBk.pdf

But the biblical ones are! That's one of the main problems of religion, yes? Lies and fables and resulting edicts on how humans must behave based on the fantasy words of non-existents. — universeness

Oh yes, yes, yes! Good moral judgment depends on knowing the truth. Believing in a God who wants people to fight wars, is not going to bring us to peace and the God of Abraham is a war God. He is a very divisive God and I will be glad when we give up this God and understand..."The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause" and what that has to do with democracy.

The Europeans invaded the New Land and decimated the Native American tribes just as God told the Hebrews to take their promised land by killing everyone. We retarded our knowledge of reality and brought the world to global warming with false beliefs and rejected the Native American understanding of nature and the need to care for our planet. For all the good religion has done it has done just as much evil because people remained ignorant and violent and totally unaware of what truth and morals have to do with democracy.

A burden is a burden only if one consents to carry it. When you attempt to burden someone else and they reject it, your only recourse is to have a negative opinion of them. You cannot force your load on them. — Vera Mont

We do not stand alone. We share the burdens of life or we do not. Which is most apt to get good results?

No Man Is An Island Poem by John Donne

Poem Hunter
https://www.poemhunter.com › Poems
Jan 3, 2003 — No man is an island, Entire of itself, Every man is a piece of the continent, A part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, — John Donne

So, not a fan of the American melting pot? My immigrant ex-compatriots assimilated in one generation and seem none the worse. (In fact, given the current state of my native land, far, far better!)
What's so admirable about stiff-necked adherence to a foreign culture at sharp variance with the country in which one is living? That national identity has brought the Jewish people no end of strife and sorrow, and culminated in occupying another people's land, marginalizing and pauperizing those other people (by 'right' of having done it once, a long time ago, then lost it to a second and third invader) with the aid and continued patronage of great imperial powers, becoming a nation that commits war crimes.
My sympathies lie with the ten lost tribes.
That's just a by-the-way about how critical culture really is. — Vera Mont

I do not understand your question and explanation. Liberty and justice for all means there are no favorites. Athens thinking advanced to universal thinking. Cicero tells us that nature has us programmed to do the right thing and if we do wrong it is because of our ignorance. This worldview is not about turning to a God but turning to math and science and reasoning with each other until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. No one is excluded from this because of racial or circumstance differences.

However, if most of the population is uneducated, or poorly educated, we have a very hard time manifesting democracy and raising the human potential. Now I am totally confused by your comment about culture. Considering the US has always had to deal with immigrants who do not understand our institutions and way of life, I think the US has done amazingly well. That is, until we stopped transmitting a culture based on democratic ideals, and stopped educating everyone for good moral judgment, and left moral training to the church. Now we are in crisis. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended.

we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy.
— Athena
The word is a good slogan and recruitment tool, but is certainly not the reason for wars. — Vera Mont

Does Christianity exist? It has had a few thousand years to make Western civilization an ideal place to have and raise children. Because that has not happened should we claim Christianity does not exist?

With Memorial Day upon us and Thanksgiving coming, the TV channel I watch has given us stories of veterans, including people of color who fought for democracy since the American Revolution. Why democracy? Because it stands for rule by reason, and liberty, and justice for all. No one knows better than people of color who fought for this, that we have not lived up to this ideal because they are still fighting for it liberty and justice. However, take democracy out of the equation, and what is left to justify their fight for equality?

As for Native Americans, some of them have also served in the military when we claimed to be defending democracy, several times I have seen programs about how Native American women had power in their organization of life and what they had to do with our women's suffrage. Not only did they own the property and participate in governing decisions, but their creator is a female. Our federation is a model of the Native American federation. The strongest force against these people was Christianity. I think considering the power of Christians we could fairly say we are a Christian nation even though we have not changed our ugly ways. We have improved our human potential but this is a work in progress. Only democracy is going to keep us on the path to continued improvement but we stopped educating for that.

I could be wrong but I think without the Greek and Roman classics that resulted in us knowing about democracy, things would be a lot worse. Christians are as addicted to killing as the Jews when they have the power and justification to take what God gave to them. We have heard Israel is a democracy and I don't think I have ever heard anyone say Israel is not a democracy but a republic.

When since 1789 has the USA been a "democracy" and not an oft-illiberal (minoritarian electoral college rigged, gerrymandered, nativist, imperialist) constitutional republic? :chin: — 180 Proof

Do you really expect me to reply to you when you have not explained what democracy is?

It never was, though its spokesmen have loudly proclaimed the very pinnacle of the democratic ideal. At the moment, nobody believes it. Indeed, a number of far-right commentators have declared that "too much democracy" is detrimental to democracy.
But that's not what universeness was talking about. Not everybody is preoccupied with the USA, and he especially has a global, rather than national, vision:

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were.
— Athena

don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done?
— Athena

Very simply by every vote having exactly the same value as every other. That way, when everyone votes for their own self-interest, the majority decision is always in favour of what's best for the majority - in policy, law-enforcement, services, infrastructure, economic disparity, production and distribution. That's exactly why any efforts at cleaning up the electoral system is invariably followed by a right-wing backlash: functional democracy tends inevitably toward permissive secular socialism. — Vera Mont

Thank you for calling my attention to the fact I omitted a word in that post. I have corrected that.

I hate the argument over if the US is a democracy or not but we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." General Report of the Seminar on "What is democracy" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

Our form of government is a republic. This relationship of social order and political order is sometimes called a democratic republic. Germany had a much more authoritarian republic especially after Hitler took over. All along the Prussians had been consolidating their power controlling Germany and applying Prussian military bureaucratic order to the government and economic order. You know the Industrial Military Complex of Germany and later became the Industrial Military Complex of the US.

Sorry, I have to run...

I think humanity as a whole has been serving the machinery of the masters of war for too long.
One day that will stop (and we won’t even need to throw out most of the machines). — 0 thru 9

Thank you. The USA defended its democracy against a nation that was also a republic but became very authoritarian and became a mechanical society that crushed individual liberty and power as it prepared to rule the world, or at least all of Western civilization. Following the Second World War, the US adopted the bureaucratic order we stood against, and adopted the German model of education for technology for Industrial and Military purposes. As centralized government gains more and more power of authority over everything, we too are becoming a mechanical society, with businesses and institutions operating in fear of that central power.

I don't think we understand what technology has done to power and our liberty. In the past, everyone was prepared for self-government, and to be civic and Industrial leaders. That made our system of elections and representatives workable. That is no longer true. The real power of government today is policies that take care of our every need as Tocqueville warned in 1830. Policies are made by government committees and all we have to do is obey. No longer do we need to be prepared for good judgment and independent action. That is a bureaucratic technology change. We left moral training to the church in 1958.

I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done?

Why should it need to? In a functioning democracy, if the majority desires freedom of self-expression and respect for the individual, diversity is automatically provided-for. If the majority desires equality before the law and of opportunity, class malleability is assured. I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

I do not know about other democracies but in the US a significant number of people insist the US is not a democracy. Some churches, the military, and Industry in the US follow England's autocratic order. The autocratic order is a hierarchy of authority, not shared power. If the US replaced autocratic Industry with a democratic model, it would have a much stronger democracy, and better economy, and much better family lives. It would be such a strong and united nation that the words of Roosevelt would ring true. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

The Jews must be admired because no matter what happens to them, they remain Jews. Unfortunately, that is not true of our democracy.

I am not convinced of freedom of self-expression being a good thing. That could include loading up with weapons and killing everyone in sight. We are not condoning that, but neither are we closing that possibility as we could with a culture that was firmly against such behavior. Right now we are cheering on power as the ultimate goal and the Republican party may or may not learn how destructive that is. We live in perilous times. We have come to believe freedom of speech means saying or doing anything we want with absolutely no concept of what morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.

Freedom to reason needs to be protected with education for good moral judgment. Freedom to do or say anything we want without good moral judgment is barbaric, not civilized.

Living together successfully based on a foundation of lies and fables is not my idea of wisdom. — universeness

Ah, ah, ah what is wrong with fables! :confused: Fables are excellent for teaching virtues and passing on culture. They serve a purpose and are not considered the word of God. Whereas believing a God promised His chosen people land and that they were to kill every man, woman, and child already inhabiting the land, is very problematic! This little false story could suck us all into a world war that could be global and far more destructive than any previous war because of all those who believe they are doing the will of this imagined God.

I don't understand this. What three 'models' of humans? How does a universal standard of living, rights, freedoms and opportunity not allow for gender diversity? — Vera Mont

Right, a democracy encourages diversity but not necessarily gender diversity. Some people insist the US is not a democracy but a republic. I think those people tend to be conservative Republicans and a threat to democracy. It seems they base their opinions on the Bible which is about a kingdom with slaves and for sure gender restrictions.

The three stereotypes of the upper, middle, and lower class are another way to hold expectations of each other, and social pressures do tend to affect everything, especially when there is no understanding of democracy being an idealogy that organizes our way of life. Reverses how kingdoms organize a way of life.

Many theists present their faith that god exists, as fact that god exists.
The burden of proof therefore lies with them.
If their response to a question such as 'do you know for a fact that a god exists?' or 'do you believe with a 100% confidence level that a god exists?' is yes, then they have the burden of proof.
I have watched theists who try to deflect this in debate after debate, many many times with atheists on-line, and they have been trounced, every time they try to reject the burden of proof.
So much so, that I rarely now hear the theist side, reject that onus. They now try to bolster and rehash the poor evidence they think they have, such as Kalam arguments about the universe must have a cause and god is the only one that makes sense or they point to scriptural evidence or personal experience / god encounters or even worse evidence such as NDE's. — universeness

I have found everyday Christians find the existence of God be a fact. That is because every time something good happens, they thank God for that. I think in their minds there can not be goodness without a God providing it. This can go as far as believing without God, their savior, we can not be good. There are so many false beliefs that go with Christianity I avoid debating if there is a God and take on the other false beliefs.

I was blown away when the woman I was playing Scrabble with announced she thought she was wrong when she was a child and told her parents we should not kill. She went on to mention the Hebrews fight for the promised land that justifies all wars of us against them. And she justifies this by saying, that when the Bible says we are not to kill, the word "murder" should have been used not the word "kill". Wars fought in the name of God are wars we should fight, and with this logic goes unquestioned assurance that Muslims are wrong when they fight for Allah. The debate over whether a God exist is futile because of how a Christian sees proof of God every day, but perhaps debating other false ideas can get good results. Just not in a senior center where are supposed to be civil with each other.

As long as the place does not remind anyone of the Berghof :scream: and I can get there without adding to the problems of climate change :scream:
Do you think we humans could create a guidance book that became as popular or more popular than the bible or the quran, but provided well-chosen 'what if,' scenarios and gave sound, robust, advice on what to do next. Would such a book be too big? Would a knowledge-based electronic hand-held computer system be better? Could a 'ziggy' type device be created to help humans deal with all situations they might face in life :chin: :grin: :lol: — universeness

That is what we are working on here. Religions work because they make people feel good and give them rules for living together successfully. More than one book was written for that purpose and those books served people well for centuries. The problem for Western civilization is being literate in Democracy means being literate in a library full of books and this is not manageable as the Bible and the Quoran are managable. However, if we can get past our tribalism we might acknowledge all religious books work for the same reasons. They all teach the same basic things and perhaps a more scientific approach to these books can become one book that works well for everyone.

The Greeks appear to have gotten this secular ball rolling with the notion of logos and our human potential to be heroes and logical and capable of self-government. Their equivalent bible is Homer's books, The Iliad and the Odyssey.

Homer's epic poems shaped aspects of ancient Greek culture and education, fostering ideals of heroism, glory, and honor.[7] To Plato, Homer was simply the one who "has taught Greece" (τὴν Ἑλλάδα πεπαίδευκεν, tēn Helláda pepaídeuken).[8][9] In Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, Virgil refers to Homer as "Poet sovereign", king of all poets;[10] in the preface to his translation of the Iliad, Alexander Pope acknowledges that Homer has always been considered the "greatest of poets".[11] From antiquity to the present day, Homeric epics have inspired many famous works of literature, music, art, and film.[12] — Wikipedia

Our books need to be books we carry with us and hold in our hands and require no technology because we need to prepare for a possible collapse of our high-tech society.

I cry as well because everyone seems desperately unhappy, stressed, and pressured.
Lucky are those who have some temporary peace and sanity. (I say temporary because ‘the shit can hit the fan’ at any moment).
Not just adults… even little children.

So if we are starting life under a constant thunderous barrage, education and wisdom have trouble even being heard, let alone being followed. — 0 thru 9

:rofl: My sister and I are dealing with old age problems. And we are nearing Thanksgiving and dealing with the reality of pretty serious family problems. It is hard to know which problems are the most urgent and demanding of my attention. I am reading as much as I can about dealing with personal and international problems and so far the best advice I have come across is to focus on the facts. However, I am also paying attention to how I feel and acting on the importance of having good feelings. What we think about everything, to a large degree, depends on how we feel.

At this time in my life, I am so aware of how our feelings affect our judgment and fortunately, I am a whole lot better at staying calm and happy. What if we helped children discover ways to be happy and ways to do good in the world? I have a problem with a previous post about education for technology. Sure we need that technology to make it possible for so many people around the world to survive, but we might even be coming to an end of what this technology can do for us. No matter what, perhaps the most important thing for us to know is how to be happy and share that happiness with others.

If the world considered the golden rule of doing unto others as we would have them do to us, might we resolve our problems peacefully? I think we should hold anyone who does not follow the golden rule accountable. Israel was not treating Palestinians as they themselves want to be treated. The United Nations knew that and did nothing about it. If you have to use weapons to get control of land, something is wrong and it is not the defenders of the land. :heart: And while I write this I am thinking of ways to achieve peace and harmony in my family. That may not be any easier than stopping the escalation of wars. But darn it anyway, I think we could improve education so everyone has a better approach to dealing with life. That needs to trump education for technology. We live a long time, so there is plenty of time to learn technology after we learn how to enjoy life.

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were.

I volunteered at the annual Holiday Bazaar in the used book room and bought way too many books. One of them is "Quantum, Shift in the Global Brain How the New Scientific Reality Can Change Us and Our World" by Ervin Laszlo. I really want to know what has to say because today is nothing like the past and this changing is going to continue. If you want you can join me in a mountain retreat and we can share books and give some thought to your question.

I love Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D.'s books about the gods in every man and goddesses in every woman. These are archetypes and she provides a brilliant explanation of these archetypes that are set when we are children and evolve in different set ways.

Out of time :groan: I want to refer back to my grandmother's 3 rules and learning virtues. I think one book could be enough but it would have to include the new social order called democracy. :heart: I love you all and I have to run.

Well for me, they just clearly show how ridiculous and stupid, soooooo much of what we think are essential cultural differences between us, are. Such are really, historically, self-imposed utter nonsense and false moral standards. The most offensive and disappointing for me, is those who I politically care about most, and empathise with most, who will say and think stuff, such as 'I know my place,' 'I am a smelly serf.' I am further annoyed by the audience laughter (piped or live) caused by a comment such as 'I have 8 kids but I'm not married.' — universeness

I loved those stereotypes and I think we have a lot to gain by being aware of them. During the Great Recession when OPEC embargoed oil to the US, I forgot how to think middle class. I came to see those who make the laws and enforce them as the enemy of the people. This was not just an emotional thing, but I actually went to the library at the local university and went through the abstracts looking for information. I found we have laws to protect the middle class, and if this means the have-nots and people on the margin of society have less of a chance, too bad. I advocated for the homeless when Reagan was in office and learned our representatives have a middle-class mentality and think a public golf course was more in line with what the voters wanted than shelter for the homeless. That has since changed and my community is doing a lot for the homeless. Darnit there is too much to say.

When the recession ended I went back to college and I felt like a Black person. My God, I realized how middle-class college education can be. I was even reported to the dean for asking inappropriate questions because the head of the department and also professor of several classes, was a real ass and I kept calling him on that. I do not mean to demean people of color but I want to say how totally and disgustingly horrible a college education can be for the same reason that back in the day, our city council members thought the voters wanted a golf course. As human beings, our awareness of others is very poor!

Our prejudices and stereotypes are survival tools. Please have mercy on us. Our brains absolutely can not handle all the information that is essential so our brains take shortcuts. Now can we speak of culture? I say too much so I will stop at repeating my school teacher's 3 rules.

1. We respect everyone because we are respectful people. That one rule could have given us a totally different history.
2. We protect the dignity of others, including our own dignity.
3. We do everything with intrigue.

The most important thing children have to learn is the virtues and if we do not learn the virtuals we will not manifest a good democracy. Ignorant people should not have the power of the vote and a democracy must have universal education to prevent social, economic, environmental, and political problems. However, it is very problematic to restrict who votes, but we can educate the people and this does not mean specializing them as doctors, physicists, engineers, etc.. It means learning concepts essential to a healthy nation.

Thanks very much! :pray: :smile:

I wonder what would happen if either democracy or Christianity were ever actually and truly manifested?

Democracy’s brand name is wearing thin.

I can at least dimly imagine a possible Christianity that is not power-mad and judgmental and very Old Testament driven, with a tendency towards random Bible verse dogma and hypocrisy. — 0 thru 9

Thank you :cry: I cry because I have such a different understanding of democracy and it seems futile to convey my different way of thinking about it. Can we begin with Socrates and his concern that if we are not mature and self-aware and focused on morality things will not go well? Democracy is rule by reason and if we are not prepared for that, we can not manifest that.

Those who fought for democracy were literate in Greek and Roman classics and no one saw democracy in the bible until enough people were literate in the classics to have a concept of democracy. A hugh problem comes with "how do we make people civilized"? We did not have free public schools nor the budget for them. But we had churches and if we could keep these Christians from killing each other, we could leave moral training to the church. Eventually... we made it law that communities must provide education and children could not work during the school hours.

We finally got our heads around the importance of education, but really? What should children learn? Who is the best person to decide that? How is this information to be taught? What does all this have to do with being self-governing? What is democracy and how is it manifested?

Yes, that's why it's taught in grades of increasingly specialized complexity and application. But if you start early showing students how to use numbers, measurement, proportions and ratios in their own areas of interest, and they are confident in mastery of the concepts, they (especially the girls) will be less averse to math in higher grades. The scientifically or mathematically gifted will discover their ability early on, while the others come to understand the reliability of exact knowledge, (such as climatologists and epidemiologists demonstrate, rather than the wild 'estimates' politicians throw out at random) If they see the purpose and usefulness of numeracy they'll be far less easily duped by stratagems like $ .99 pricing and government boondoggles. — Vera Mont

The book you recommend looks interesting and because of this discussion with you, I bought a copy of "A History of Women in America" by Janet L. Coryell and Nora Faires". That one starts with a story of a Native American woman who ruled over much of North America and the barbaric Spanish led by Hernando de Soto. For me, this is a story about the importance of culture and the ugliness of being barbaric. And it is not technology that makes humans civilized. A child who learns to build bombs and kills his parents and then shoots up teachers and his peers in a high school is not a desired addition to society and this is very much a result of the change in education and change in our understanding of freedom of speech and what it means to be civilized. However, telling a more exact history, a history that includes our wrongs is a good thing, or learning of cultures that did well until we arrived is a good thing.

For the math, just yesterday my daughter was talking about the impossible challenge of parents trying to help their young learn math. I think this math turn has important social consciences and is as great a failure as the "see and say" method of teaching reading. In fact, the new math failed so badly it is being replaced with another new math. New math left many mathematically illiterate just as the "see and say" method of teaching reading left many illiterate and hating reading because they failed so badly.

What is exact knowledge? I believe those who think they can know absolute truth are absolutely dangerous, and that this mentality is bringing us down. For sure this mentality can not possibly give us a better society. I have an excellent book on the seriousness of math illiteracy and I could be wrong but I think sticking to old math, art, and music and building on this triad foundation can correct the problem of math illiteracy and make everyone's lives richer in a pleasurable way that also unites us.

There is practical math that is applied to life and math for technology that leaves most mathematically ignorant but is great for the few who go on to college educations that is about having a high tech job. I am out of time or I post a link that explains this better than I can.

That's because of your mind-set, instilled by a culture in which men were alienated from their families, very much to the detriment of men, families and the culture. — Vera Mont

Oh my, you excite me so much! We need a good book about what Industrialization and war have done to our values and relationships. I worry that concepts such as exploiting workers, servants and slaves and admiration for those who get rich doing so are not so clear to everyone.

When the US entered WWI Industry argued in favor of closing schools as many countries at war had done. Industry argued it was not getting its money's worth from education because it still had to train new employees. Teachers argue it was our nation's very best who understood why democracy must be defended, who were the first to sign up to defend our democracy and even if we won the war we would be devastated if education did not replace these men.

Yes, it was common to man our factories with very young people who were cheap and if we closed our schools, that would end the child labor laws that took children out of factories during school hours. Vocational training was added to education at this time and this greatly increased the number of parents who sent their children to school so they could get better jobs, and it greatly increased the middle class as education led to better jobs, better working conditions, and better wages. The history of child labor in England is even worse because of greater poverty and there was no western frontier for the poor to escape into.

Yipes too much to say- Industry and war did alienate men from their families and modeling our Industry with Britain's automatic model is bad for families. In a democracy, people need Industry to use the democratic model. This would help families more than the Bible.

Young women, still eager to socialize, to dance and laugh with their friends, are confined in some dull dwelling-place with one or more needy, pre-verbal creatures, all day, every day, doing drudge-work, with no outlet for creativity or intelligence, no prospects and no status. The man brings a battered ego home every night to a wife who feels trapped and resentful.
Happy nuclear families! — Vera Mont

With the democratic model of Industry, fewer men and women would come home with battered egos because with the democratic model is constant learning and opportunity for advancement and respect for the workers' perspective that can be a big help to the overall operation. "Insubordination" is a word that does not belong in a democracy and resentful citizens are poison to a civilization. The reason for having a democracy is not only to fulfill our human potential but also to avoid the poisons of envy, resentment, ect..

As for the woman trapped at home and isolated- been there done that! It would have been so much easier if we had the Internet back then. I can survive anything as long as I can communicate with people who are like the people here. Without this, I was very close to insanity after many years of isolation and psychological abuse. However, I was able to channel my creative energy in constructive ways and loved the hippie movement that encouraged creativity. When both children were in school I volunteered a lot and sat on many committees like the tallest man's wife in the video. I was glad I had the time to educate myself and to feel important on committees. That is not always true for working people. I had my years of doing manual labor to support my family as a single woman. Talk about workers feeling resentment! I was horrified by some working conditions. I hate hearing "They just don't want to work". Why not? After years of isolation and earning for a job and better social connections I wanted to work, but the conditions of some jobs were intolerable and that gave me some sympathy for men who endure that and use alcohol to endure their lives.

Those videos are most enjoyable. For sure you stirred a lot of thinking in my head. I notice my reaction is very judgmental with feelings of disgust hampering my ability to be logical. To me, it is horrifying that a human being would be ruled by his/her feelings rather than reason. But I think many of us have a romantic notion of nature, and on the other hand, a very old eugenics book argues in favor of teaching birth control, so women will stop sending their husbands to prostitutes so the women can avoid sex and being pregnant again and again.

So much of my thinking today is influenced by an understanding of hormones and behavior. Addiction is a result of biological changes and our DNA which may make us more or less likely to become addicted. Without this scientific understanding of addiction, I thought addictions were a matter of weakness of character. Also, our sexual behavior is very much about hormones and relationships. Should a wife understand she should always please her husband, even though her hormonal balance means she is less interested in sex? :rofl: Surely everyone thinks of all these things after watching the comedy videos.

What might we want a child to know so the child can make the best possible decisions? How important is the math for today's technology? compared to knowing ourselves through knowledge of hormones? I surely do not want to start a family with a man ruled by his feelings at the moment and a need for alcohol, but when I was 18 I knew nothing about such things. :rofl: Even in my old age, those Roman soldiers in short leather uniforms tend to momentarily stop me from thinking of anything else. I wonder if at age 18 I could have learned in school the things life has taught me. Knowing facts does not equal knowing the meaning of the facts and when we are young our hormones are all about reproduction!

The higher-class gentleman impresses me as someone more likely to order his life with reason than spontaneously act on his feelings. Would this be helpful for children to learn? Does preparation for scientific thinking train the brain to use reason rather than acting on urges? Can we all be rich in knowledge and do we want to encourage this in a democracy?

I think I see what you are saying here, but I might make a small but important distinction between ‘civilization’ and ‘socialization’. — 0 thru 9

That is pure genius comparing the meaning of those two words and I think your statement of us having a civilization but not good socialization is perfect. I need to write what you said and put it on my board that has things I want to remember. I think over time when what you said has time to take root in my brain, your thought will improve my explanation of education and culture.

All of us White folk come from kingdoms and all those kingdoms used the Bible as the center of the justification of their civilizations. What they did to "those people" and the earth might be scornful. I am sorry if some of you are Christian because I am asking everyone to consider what Christian civilizations have done and to contemplate what our democracy would be if the immigrants to the New Land had respected the aboriginal people and adopted the culture of the Cherokees. What if we grew up thinking those born to a land belong to the land instead of the land belongs to those who can take it by force or who buy the land?

What does it mean to be civilized?

We were not successful in every endeavour, but at least some progress was made. In the workplace, considerable progress. In law and politics, two steps forward to one step back. In marital relations and parenting, immeasurable - because in some segments of society, the change is producing much better relationships and healthier children, while in others, very little has changed. — Vera Mont

My biggest impression of what you said is that people interested in philosophy tend to be more civil than those who have no interest in philosophy. I think in general we are respectful of different life experiences and different points of view. I agree with us making progress when it comes to employment, but I also see serious problems coming with this progress.

Who takes care of the children? Maybe in another 100 years, men will be instinctively nurturing but right now the idea of leaving a very young child in the care of a man for more than a couple of hours, unnerves me. I think men can do better than women when it comes to working with older children. A girl who has a father who is like a mentor to her is most fortunate! But I just don't think the average man does as well with babies and toddlers as the average woman and I think this difference is physical and especially hormonal. For me, this thinking goes with believing in evolution and what hormones have to do with our behavior.

Who takes care of the children is very much an economic question. I don't think it makes sense to expect single parents to both care for children and support them. In the past, a single working parent often had a mother or sister willing to care for the children. That is not as likely to be true today. In the US we have been totally reliant on women staying home to care for the family and now she has to work there is no one to care for children unless she can pay someone to care for her children and in some places even if she can afford childcare, there is none. This is a crisis situation for the single parent. His/her very best is not good enough unless s/he earns over $100,000 a year. That is not a minimum-wage job and we are very resistant to the government providing childcare or any form of assistance. We want to hold parents responsible for their children but we also have agreed marriage is no longer required and divorces are better than enduring the unhappiness of a bad marriage.

I would find all that less harmful if Industry used the democratic model instead of the autocratic model. We could include childcare in the place of employment or subsidized housing. We are having a hard time wrapping our heads around communal living and shared responsibility.

It has not been that long since we subdued the wilderness. When I first moved to Oregon there were fishing, farming, and timber jobs, and not many machines to do the heavy work. It was a different world not that long ago. And with that is the woman being every industry a family needs, she made the soap, all the clothes, and everything else the family needed. She planted the garden and preserved the produce and cut the wood to be put in the stove she used to cook the food. Now here are some problems! Her parents married her off when she was 14 and this had nothing to do with love. It was survival and it was common for men to get what they wanted from a woman by being abusive. Your mention of the Bible is evidence of what is wrong with patriarchy. And there is little an abused woman with children could do to have a better life. Our whole economic structure was keeping her ignorant and dependent on the income only a man could earn.

I am not sure we fully appreciate how much things have changed and I am out of time for today.

So should every boy along with every girl. I resented the hell out of not being allowed to take shop. Men need to budget, clothe and nourish themselves, just as women need to do minor home repairs. Whether they're married or not - besides, who says they'll marry each other? impractical to have two partners who can make pineapple upside-down cake but neither can put up a level shelf.

Women's lib didn't do that - patriarchy did. Women who had no independent income were at the mercy of their husbands in more ways than just financially - more so if they had children.

I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture.
— Athena
It brought its own young in line with the new world order your country had a major role in creating in the wake of WWII. Round individuals had been pretty rare before the war. Now, more scientific and industrial skills were needed, and a couple of other countries were already more advanced in those areas. The US had two choices: catch up and pull ahead or fall behind and lose its position as a world power. — Vera Mont

:rofl: When my X left so did the tools. Do you know how hard it is to make repairs with kitchen equipment?

I also resented the division of labor that was very divided by the Girl's Club and Boy's Club of my childhood in Hollywood, California. The clubs were a block apart and gender separated. But at the same time, I totally bought into the Dick and Jane family values. I believed I had to have children to fulfill myself as a woman and during the Hippie period, I loved associating with the Mother Goddess and being all things to my family, making everything from food to clothing with raw resources. I guess all that makes me a romantic.

Are you sure it was not women's liberation that destroyed the value of being a woman? I have been most viciously attacked by women when I speak in favor of traditional values. Rarely have men prevented me from doing something I wanted to do, but you make me think about this and now I remember occasionally men did draw the line but they have not attacked me as women have when I argue in favor of traditional values. Mostly I remember my college education and my shock at realizing my domestic language was not adequate for college-level work and a professional life. You have noticed this thread is in the lounge because it does not have the form that is the male standard. I was never able to give up the notion that we are meant to interact personally.

However, :nerd: excitement! I know my divorced, school teacher grandmother preferred the Alice and Jerry books to Dick and Jane books. That is hugely important because in the Alice and Jerry books a woman could be single and independent and those books were about learning phonics. While Dick and Jane books were for the sight-and-say method of teaching reading and the federal government's effort to stop the rising divorce rate following WWII. These differences have huge cultural consequences. About 20 years ago, a teacher was thrilled to show me the new computer and a story of the bully on the block being a female. The bully being a female is not something I consider socially desirable.

I am amazed you are aware of why the 1958 National Defense Education is important to our education and national changes! I remember the day it was enacted because the teachers were in a state of shock. I knew something big happened but had no idea what unless they knew we were about to enter a nuclear war with Russia. Fortunately, a male teacher told the class we were now going to be educated for a technological society with unknown values! Unknown values?! How can we protect our civilization and democracy if our values are unknown?

What are we protecting if the only value we share is the value of money?

Good, glad to hear that! :grin: It’s a liberating feeling.
We’ve all been lied to, even repeated the lies that we ingested.
Now’s an excellent to to stop, beginning with what we tell ourselves in the quiet of our minds. — 0 thru 9

Oh yes! I see this so much as I deal with terrible family relationships spinning off of the individual stories each child and grandchild has created to explain his or her life. My sister and I have very different life stories even though we grew up together. Not until her later years has she been open to my love and this seems to be fairly common. My oldest granddaughter is carrying a story about her life that makes loving relationships seem impossible. Daughters are frequently estranged. This seems a process of the daughters forming their independent identity and this personal stuff makes public education for good relationships even more important. Joseph Campbell said we need a shared mythology and our lack of a shared mythology leads to us creating our own mythology creating our family and associates as the monsters we must defend ourselves against.

How about you? I find Eastern thinking liberating. As I near death I am comforted by the notion that I am one with the universe, but also distressed about being one with the universe and no "I". If "I" do not exist does anything matter? But is it not that need for "I" that separates us from the oneness? I have an awful lot of thinking to do.

A fusion of tribal thinking with Greek and Stoic philosophy could be amazing.
I think the Tao Te Ching is in the neighborhood of that in some ways, and is a deep well of wisdom. — 0 thru 9

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As soon as I lied down I thought of Sumer and the story of a wild man living in the wilderness being tamed by a woman in the city. The point being we are not naturally good and caring beings who live well in communities. We learn how to be civilized. Children who are not nurtured well early in life may lose the ability to love.

Reactive attachment disorder (RAD) is a condition where a child doesn’t form healthy emotional bonds with their caretakers (parental figures), often because of emotional neglect or abuse at an early age. Children with RAD have trouble managing their emotions. They struggle to form meaningful connections with other people. Children with RAD rarely seek or show signs of comfort and may seem fearful of or anxious around their caretakers, even in situations where their caretakers are quite loving and caring.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17904-reactive-attachment-disorder

Our Justice and correction systems are on the verge of dramatic change as we move away from thinking of people as being good or evil, to understanding why some of us succeed and some of us fail miserably.

Without this information about our humanness, Ishmael's explanation is like the story of Eden. We would all live in paradise if we didn't do evil. Totally innocent people destroy their environment such as the people living on Easter Island who deforested their island to the point they could no longer make fishing boats, so they ate all the land animals and finally became cannibals. Today we can estimate how many people live in a valley given in the resources of the valley but instead of learning to live within our limits, we rely on technology to meet all our needs. So like Israel when the population is greater than the available space humans start pushing "those people" out. This is more the mentality of an animal than a well-educated human being who chooses not to have 6 children.

You mentioned "Tao Te Ching" so I pulled out my copy of "Great Thinkers of the Eastern World" and Eastern philosophers have made stronger arguments for intentionally civilizing each other. This Chinese Buddhist philosophy goes with quantum physics and the possibility of multiple dimensions.

(1) All phenomena are mutually related and give rise to one another simultaneously. (2) The broad and the narrow are mutually inclusive without impediment; and one action, however small, includes all actions. (3) The many are included in the one and the one in the many, without losing their respective characteristics as “one” and “many.” (4) All phenomena are interpenetrated in their essence; one is equal to all and all is equal to one. (5) The hidden and the manifest complement each other and together form one entity. (6) Things that are inconceivably minute also obey the principle of many in one and one in many. (7) All phenomena ceaselessly permeate and reflect one another, like the reflections in the jewels of Indra’s net (a net said to hang on a wall in the palace of the god Indra, or Shakra; at each link of the net is a reflective jewel that mirrors the adjacent jewels and the multiple images reflected in them). (8) All phenomena manifest the truth, and the truth is to be found in all phenomena; anything can serve as an example of the truth of the interdependence of all things. (9) The three periods of past, present, and future each have past, present, and future within themselves. This defines nine periods, which together form one period, making ten in all. These ten periods are distinct yet mutually pervasive. This mystery expresses the “one is all, all is one” principle of the Flower Garland school in terms of time. (10) At any time, one phenomenon acts as principal and many phenomena as secondary, thus completing the whole. https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/60

That is different from thinking in terms of God's manifestation and good and evil like Zoroastrianism or the God of Abraham religions. Once the concepts of good and evil blend with our thoughts is it possible for us to think without good and evil judgments? How does it feel to think of the 10 mysteries?

Okay I read the whole quote. Now I am going to back to bed to ponder it. Immediately I know, I like the notion that I belong to the world, better than the notion I am wrongfully alienated from a jealous, revengeful, fearsome God and that our lives were made miserable by Adam and Eve eating the wrong plant and God had to kill his son to save our souls. What an awful story that is. We are alienated from god and Earth and desperate to find acceptance, and in our despondency, we might find it necessary to kill everything and everyone around us.