Did you know Tolstoi and Dostoyevsky had an entire discussion about whether great men were great or simply people at the right time at the right moment? This resulted in War & Peace and Crime & Punishment.

I'm a historie totale guy myself (camp Tolstoi). — Benkei

I understand what you're getting at, but that category is far too broad to have a name. What aspect of 'beyond our comprehension' are you pointing to? Anything beyond our comprehension? Seems a bit of a McGuffin. — AmadeusD

I truly, seriously do not think there is anything to support this position.

Could you please present me with unbiased, peer-reviewed work that shows that 'chi' is real? Having been ensconced in new-age groups and thinking for a decade or more, I did look into Qi very deeply because i 'bought' it at the time. It seems to me there is literally nothing, anywhere at all, that can be trusted to legitimate that concept. Would be very much open to something which shows - without ideological investment - something reasonable about it. While I'm, not able to run the video right now (at work) from what I know of him, Jesse Enkamp is a typical McDojo internet talking head with very little in the way of sensible takes. Have run in to him/his work around Jiu Jitsu many times over the last few years and its routinely been shown as nonsense designed to make money.

Traditional Chinese medicine explains acupuncture as a technique for balancing the flow of energy or life force — known as chi or qi (chee) — believed to flow through pathways (meridians) in your body. — Mayoclinic

a circle of constant longitude passing through a given place on the earth's surface and the terrestrial poles.
"the European Broadcasting Area extends from the Atlantic to the meridian 40°E"
2.
(in acupuncture and Chinese medicine) each of a set of pathways in the body along which vital energy is said to flow. There are twelve such pathways associated with specific organs.
"the slow movements and postures of t'ai chi open up and align the meridians of the body" — Oxford languages

By it being entirely separated from Western Thought from about 1100AD. By religious warfare, ironically.
We stole from Arab scholars, for sure, but that doesn't mean our thought are intertwined systems. We nicked sources and ran away with them. Islam stayed put, and is still there today, for the most part. Developing algebra isn't relevant to what we're discussing here. — AmadeusD

teleogical divine command theory. — AmadeusD

Yes.....quite right. Unsure what the implication for our exchange is here. My points essentially rest on this. — AmadeusD

But people are only driven to the type of irrational acts of war, with the addition of a commanding ideology. — AmadeusD

the Enlightenment has acted as a shield against runaway Christianity for the most part. We have nothing similar for Islam given it's self-imposed exile from Western thought. — AmadeusD

Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.

— Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775[10] — Wikipedia

During the late 1800s and early 1900s, the Anti-Imperialist League used Faneuil Hall to protest America’s growing imperialism. The league argued against militarization and the creation of an overseas American Empire and asserted that the principles the United States had been founded upon needed to extend to foreign policy as well. — Boston National Historical Park

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."[62]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. — Wikipedia

t partially the Enlightenment has acted as a shield against runaway Christianity for the most part. — AmadeusD

The problem, I think aptly identified by Sam Harris, is the ideology, not the people. There are varying degrees of commitment, but the further from a true commitment we get, the less problematic things become. Which is a serious indictment of the ideology, rather than elements of human nature. You can get almost every positive aspect from religion (particularly the Abrahamics) without it, or at least without the type of commitment religion requires.
Conversely, you can't randomly get the type of despicable behaviours we see out of the depths of religion (particularly hte Abrahamics) without that kind of commitment, and in most cases, without that particular ideology.

I've a love/hate (take those words very lightly) relationship with those who 'adhere' to a religion by bastardizing it - they avoid the negatives, but also avoid a genuine commitment. — AmadeusD

The brain is still connected. I take it that the reason the body is still moving is because the brain is still receiving and sending with the body, as though still in its natural state. But I may be misinterpreting. Difficulty ti know. — Patterner

The premise is that the brain is still connected. No explanation as to how, but that's the premise. It is still getting the same information from the body, through whatever unspecified means.

At least that's my interpretation of the premise — Patterner

What is the source of the claim that the revolt was in response to a threat to their system of jobs depending on heritage, not merit? — Fooloso4

In the 2nd century BCE, Judea lay between the Ptolemaic Kingdom (based in Egypt) and the Seleucid Empire (based in Syria), monarchies which had formed following the death of Alexander the Great. Judea had initially come under Ptolemaic rule but fell to the Seleucids around 200 BCE. Judea at that time had been affected by the Hellenization initiated by Alexander the Great. Some Jews, mainly those of the urban upper class, notably the Tobiad family, wished to dispense with Jewish law and to adopt a Greek lifestyle. According to historian Victor Tcherikover, the main motive for the Tobiads' Hellenism was economic and political.[10] The Hellenizing Jews built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, competed in international Greek games, "removed their marks of circumcision and repudiated the holy covenant".[11] — wikipedia

The author of the First Book of Maccabees regards the Maccabean revolt as a rising of pious Jews against the Seleucid king (who had tried to eradicate their religion) and against the Jews who supported him. The author of the Second Book of Maccabees presents the conflict as a struggle between "Judaism" and "Hellenism", concepts which he coined.[16] Most modern scholars argue that King Antiochus reacted to a civil war between traditionalist Jews in the Judean countryside and Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem,[17][18] though the king's response of persecuting the religious traditionalists was unusual in antiquity, and was the immediate provocation for the revolt.[19] According to Joseph P. Schultz, modern scholarship "considers the Maccabean revolt less as an uprising against foreign oppression than as a civil war between the orthodox and reformist parties in the Jewish camp",[20] but John J. Collins writes that while the civil war between Jewish leaders led to the king's new policies, it is wrong to see the revolt as simply a conflict between Hellenism and Judaism, since "[t]he revolt was not provoked by the introduction of Greek customs (typified by the building of a gymnasium) but by the persecution of people who observed the Torah by having their children circumcised and refusing to eat pork."[19]
— wikipedia

The Maccabean Revolt (Hebrew: מרד החשמונאים) was a Jewish rebellion led by the Maccabees against the Seleucid Empire and against Hellenistic influence on ...
‎Maccabees · ‎Judas Maccabeus · ‎Battle of Elasa · ‎Seleucid army — Wikipedia

How about considering it is as we believe it to be? We can experience a wonderful love or not.
— Athena

I found 'the grass is greener' nature of Tom Storm's perspective and mine amusing. I'm not seeing how what you said is related.
3 days ago — wonderer1

No, you were just trying to stay calm and carry on. Avoid panic in a scary situation and use your focus to think your way out. I also got lost in the Scottish hills once, with a companion, in bad weather. We had no equipment to stay in the hills overnight. We got back, almost 9 hours late, exhausted and confused, scrambling in the dark, with one small torch, losing its power. We learned to be better prepared. Nowadays, the GPS software on mobile phones, makes the chances of getting lost in the wilds, much more unlikely. Your 'Artemitris' appeal has been rendered even more unnecessary, by mobile phone tech, how's that for an example of science making god appeals more and more defunct? — universeness

I agree, and the best way to do that is to do all we can to discover better and more robust ways, to protect human life against all scenarios that might destroy or damage it. Practical, logical, effective methodology, not appeals to non-existent sources of aid. The placebo effect is only useful for encouraging a PMA or positive mental attitude but it is a very limited and 'hit or miss' type methodology. It should only be used in desperation. It is pretty close to a 'if you are falling from a high building, you are as well to flap your arms, perhaps you will grab a flagpole on the way down,' act of desperation, just like 'oh please help me Artemitris!'

I am not suggesting being literally minded in all scenario's. But I am also saying that we should never, ever, ever value special pleading to gods as anything other that acts of sheer desperation and it is far far better to keep as calm as you can in difficult situations and use your rationale and whatever practical and logical skills you have to survive whatever threat you are facing.
In your scenario, planning your way back to civilisation and applying that plan, was much more useful and significant, than your self-comforting(placebo effect) appeal to a non-existent.

hen it is very likely that you are a deluded fool — universeness

Rather than argue about whether Abraham was a real person I think that it is within the stories that the substantive issues lie. The story of the sacrifice of Isaac, for example. It is held up as a shining example of faith, but I see it as an example of fanaticism. — Fooloso4

This is nothing more that personal placebo effects, imo. — universeness

You asked: "how do we have knowledge". The point is that knowledge of how to make clothes is something that begins with rudimentary attempts, not developed knowledge. — Fooloso4

I think Jesus was a real person, but that real person is not the person(s) created by the legends or the persons created by the interpretation of the NT legends. The "Christian thing" has from the beginning been different things. — Fooloso4

I think that the ancient fables/stories she see's such value in have caused far more trouble than they were ever worth. — universeness

The metaphor of the tree of knowledge is not intended to be an explanation, magical or otherwise. But the story does point to desire and vulnerability as leading to knowledge. Even before eating Eve saw that the fruit of the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom (3:6). They saw that they were naked and sewed together fig leaves to cover themselves. (3:7) This was the beginning of technical knowledge. But this attempt was not adequate. God made garments of skin for them (3:21). The problem of nakedness is that they were aware that they were vulnerable, exposed. They hid because they were naked and afraid. (3:10) — Fooloso4

The myth of anamnesis. I discuss it a bit in my thread on Plato's Phaedo. — Fooloso4

You aren't into history, are you?
— Athena
Yes I am, what point/judgement about me, are you trying to make by those words? — universeness

We can validate this because people were recording their political agreements and histories, and even primitive tribes left evidence of their existence and movements.
However, the stories are not without bias and it takes a lot of digging to be sure which story is the most accurate.
— Athena
So yeah, we have to separate reliable evidence, and those ancients who wrote down lies and claimed they were writing truth. Evidence for the existence of Abraham is not enhanced by evidence that a town or city he was placed in existed, or that Babylon or Sumer existed and we know the names of some of their Kings etc and some of the events that may or may not have happened, in the exact way they were memorialised/reported. Archeology can certainly find artifacts from of a time or a place, and use them to infer or gather data, but archeology has not found any indicator whatsoever, that is very compelling evidence, that the biblical character of Abraham ever existed. Same with the biblical moses, jesus, the disciples, Paul etc etc. Was Jesus also an illiterate? Why are there no writings signed Jesus Christ or the Aramaic equivalent? We also have no evidence at all, that the god Zeus or the goddess Athena existed, even though we accept that the ancient Greeks and ancient Greece existed and we know some of their names and some of the events that may or may not have actually happened. You agree, yes?

archeology has not found any indicator whatsoever, that is very compelling evidence, that the biblical character of Abraham ever existed. — universeness

Was Jesus also an illiterate? — universeness

In the Bible Jesus reads and writes a couple of times. One is in Hebrew and the other times the language is not specified but it could be Greek — Frigorifico

Education has been defined as, "teaching and learning specific skills, and also something less tangible, but more profound: the imparting of knowledge, positive judgement and well-developed wisdom. Education has as one of its fundamental aspects the imparting of culture from generation to generation (see socialization)".

While curriculum and texts for schools has been found in other areas of the ancient near east, no direct evidence—either literary or archaeological—exists for schools in ancient Israel.[1] There is no word for school in ancient (biblical) Hebrew,[1] the earliest reference to a "house of study" (bet hammidras) is found in the mid-Hellenistic period (2nd cent. BC) in the book of Ben Sira (51:23).[2]

However, the writing of the Bible as well as the variety of inscriptional material from ancient Palestine testifies to a relatively robust scribal culture that must have existed to create these textual artifacts.[1] The best unambiguous evidence for schools in ancient Israel comes from a few abecedaries and accounting practice texts found at sites such as Izbet Sarta, Tel Zayit, Kadesh Barnea, and Kuntillet ʿAjrud.[1] However, these were probably not schools in the traditional sense but rather an apprenticeship system located in the family.[1]

The total literacy rate of Jews in Israel in the first centuries c.e. was "probably less than 3%". While this may seem very low by today's standards, it was relatively high in the ancient world. If we ignore women (on the ground of their not participating in society), take into consideration children above the age of seven only, forget the far-away farmers and regard literacy of the non-educated people (e.g., one who cannot read the Torah but reads a bulla, that is: pragmatic literacy), then the literacy rate (adult males in the centers), might be even 20%, a high rate in traditional society.[3][4][5] — Wikipedia

The words in bold talk about the world of Abraham. and the words underlined cites the bible as the source. This is no evidence at all that Abraham was a real boy, any more than the world of Gilgamesh or the world of harry potter, suggests they were real either. — universeness

But, I am an atheist who does not think that any of the biblical characters were real. — universeness

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” (Genesis 3:22)

Man should not be allowed to become gods. Death, like life, is both a blessing and a curse. The dualism of blessings and curses in this story should not be overlooked. They go hand in hand. They are tied to the dualism of knowledge. Knowledge is productive. Its fruits are both good and bad. Adam knew Eve. — Fooloso4

I want to know so much more about why you chose Asian philosophy.
— Athena

It chose me. It is common to ask an instructor to teach courses outside their area. Some instructors will just find a textbook, and let it do most of the work. Some textbooks have teacher editions that discussion questions and sample tests. That is not the way I do things.

I use primary texts. Rather than reading about philosophers and schools we read and attempt to interpret and discuss their work. To keep this short I had to do a lot of reading to prep. — Fooloso4

I want to know more. Which philosophers did your class examine?

I am thinking, that some philosophers are extremely difficult to read and I like the shortcut of reading someone else's explanation of what the original person said. But mind you, until relatively recently I have done my reading on my own without others to discuss them with and that does not have the same motivation of knowing one will interact with others. I am stumbling in the dark with philosophy without guidance.

I also attempted to read the Bible for myself and found it to be as terrible as Socrates found the stories told of the gods. For me, the Bible says so many stupid and horrible things it is not worth my time, but then I read your explanations and I am favorably impressed by your deeper understanding. If they give trophies to people who expand the thinking of others, you deserve one because I am pretty belligerent when it comes to the Bible. I still think the Christian thing is very problematic and harmful to democracy but you have shown a well-educated person can see more meaning of the stories than a less educated person.

I think the quotes you chose make it clear Judaism is a tribal religion, not an explanation of a universal god whose children are equal under the sun. And that tribal religion comes with a hierarchy that is not compatible with democracy. I am edging us back to the subject of this thread- Is our greatness the result of working together or the result of great leaders? What part does God play in this? I am getting at the international point of view and the fact that in some countries Americans are obnoxious people because they believe they are God's chosen people and that what they want, God wills for them. As the story goes we are blessed by God and those who oppose us are evil. Why else would God give us the technology of nuclear weapons if He did not want us to rule? Or as Zeus might say, that technology for war is a forbidden fruit and the longer it takes for us to have such technology the better. :wink:

The Greeks had a war with the Maccabees because the Greeks favored merit hiring and did not comply with the Jewish notion of God-chosen men and inherited rights to certain jobs. Martin Luther did not question God chose who would be masters and who would be slaves. Only recently has science begun explaining how past favoritism unjustly held some men down. The US is still struggling with old beliefs that justify divisions of humans. The question of greatness has social, political, and economic ramifications. The US was a New Social Order, but I don't think anyone today understands that because we replaced education for good citizenship and good moral judgment with education for technology and left moral training to the church.

:worry: Oh darn, I am dealing with a mental breakdown. My brain absolutely will not follow the linear process essential to comprehensive thinking. I am trying to clear up my thinking so I can make a comprehensive statement about democracy and the human potential. Then religion comes into the discussion and things are so complex for me, and I am afraid I am getting further from my goal. In the past, the goal was to write a book and I did great until bumped into the Christian issue. Trying to deal with the Christian issue without offending anyone took down my effort to write a book like an iceberg took down the Titanic. But the original Greek understanding of humans and gods is nothing like the God of Abraham's understanding of humans and God.

I did not find evidence of "moral training" but moral philosophy was often represented. — Fooloso4

I met with the head of philosophy at my university back in 1988. I had been somewhat annoyed by the approach taken over the year, which was essentially telling us how to think. He laughed and said, 'Son, you're not here to learn about philosophy, you're here to parrot back to us that which we think is correct. If you want to learn philosophy, leave this course.' Which I promptly did 30 minutes later. I never regretted the choice. Anyway now I'm here, sniffing around to see what I might have missed. — Tom Storm

By way of comparison, I went on to teach courses on Chinese, Japanese, and Greek philosophy. — Fooloso4

Abraham is a human ...
— Athena

If you mean he was a real person, a historical figure you will not find much scholarly support. If you mean that these stories had their antecedents then yes, but as they have come to us they reflect other ideas as well. — Fooloso4

By Cynthia Astle
Updated on May 04, 2019
Archaeology has been one of biblical history's greatest tools to sift out verified facts of Bible stories. In fact, over the past few decades archaeologists have learned a great deal about the world of Abraham in the Bible. Abraham is considered to be the spiritual father of the world's three great monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. — Cynthia Astle

Where was Abraham from? The Bible states that Abraham was raised in “Ur of the Chaldeans” (Ur Kasdim). Most scholars agree that Ur Kasdim was the Sumerian city Ur, today Tall al-Muqayyar (or Tall al-Mughair), about 200 miles (300 km) southeast of Baghdad in lower Mesopotamia.Nov 19, 2023 — Britannica

According to Plato's Euthyphro the answer is no. Their less than exemplary behavior is the basis of Socrates' criticism of Euthyphro's misguided piety. — Fooloso4

An incantation, a spell, a charm, an enchantment, or a bewitchery, is a magical formula intended to trigger a magical effect on a person or objects. The formula can be spoken, sung, or chanted. An incantation can also be performed during ceremonial rituals or prayers. Wikipedia — Wikipedia

I don't know if a complete survey of such political attitudes has been done. But I recently saw a video of a Trump supporter, who said something like "if he was not praying daily, how could he get to be a billionaire?", and by implication, president. SomeTrumpers seem to believe his own propaganda, that he is a born --- and born-again --- Genius.

Perhaps a combination of inborn superiority and a close relationship with god, will make you a leader : economically and politically. Apparently, a significant portion of the political spectrum believes something like that. :meh: — Gnomon

For Plato the good is what is higher. In the Christian West the death of God is for Nietzsche the rejection of anything higher. That is so in part because God was held to be what is higher. Nietzsche makes the connection with the notion of a value free objective science. He asks what we will find to stand as something higher. — Fooloso4

AmadeusD — AmadeusD

I think it is intended to mimic the Bible, which I know you also dislike. — Fooloso4

Alas, in my old age I lost my bippy. — Fooloso4

Unlike some philosophers Nietzsche doe not speak about timeless truths. If things were different the issues he addresses would be different. What he would say and how interesting it would be I don't know. — Fooloso4

If there was an Abraham this is not a god he would have recognized. The idea of omnipotence was a later development. From what I have read the major influence was Greek philosophy and the idea of a perfect being. — Fooloso4

By the time of Plato, if not before, the gods had already been diminished in importance and influence. — Fooloso4

Even with those who believe in God there is interest in what other religions, sects, and cultures have to say. — Fooloso4

By 'individualized' are you just speaking to a 'group' adequately delineating itself? I ask, as i don't recognize what you're describing in these movements at all really. The whole 'eating it's tail' trope around identitarian groups having very much gate-keeping qualities about them comes to mind.

I might be over-blowing that particular aspect - but it does seem to me that the Frankfurt/Horkheimer origins speak to a very distinct flavour of anti-individualism, essentially replacing individual conceptions with group-accepted ones, in turn attempting to pit these against the conceptions and gate-keeping of other groups in a 'power struggle'. This is never done on the individual level, so i guess I'm wanting a bit more to understand the position that deconstructionist thought has any focus on individuation beyond lip-service? — AmadeusD

The Great Man Theory assumes that world-changing leaders are born, not socialized. In fact, most of them --- Alexander the Great, Napoleon, (Trump???) --- were ass-holes in social interactions, and dictatorial in their governance. Their fervid followers followed them, not because they were nice guys, but because they were perceived to have the "right-stuff" to change the world from the unsatisfactory status quo. It's the job of collectivist-socialist nerds to counteract the immoral excesses of the world-conquerors.

But even the bureaucratic leaders of the masses sometimes turn-out to be ass-holes ; perhaps due to the absolute power corrupts principle. The rest of us have to choose which band-wagon to jump on. Or to arduously make our own path. Fortunately, Democracy allows us the freedom to choose neither King nor Communism. But even that option is an uphill struggle without a clear path to follow. :smile:



Essentially, according to the Great Man Theory, people in positions of power deserve to lead because of characteristics granted to them at birth, which ultimately help them become heroes. No great man lives in vain. The history of the world is but the biography of great men.
https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/anthropology/great-man-theory — Gnomon

Ostracism (Greek: ὀστρακισμός, ostrakismos) was an Athenian democratic procedure in which any citizen could be expelled from the city-state of Athens for ten years. While some instances clearly expressed popular anger at the citizen, ostracism was often used preemptively. It was used as a way of neutralizing someone thought to be a threat to the state or a potential tyrant, though in many cases popular opinion often informed the expulsion. The word "ostracism" continues to be used for various cases of social shunning. — Wikipedia

Living without a god. Living without something higher. Plato does this with the idea of the good. — Fooloso4

I, the last disciple and initiate of the God Dionysus

But if we have killed God then what? — Fooloso4

I think it must be just the opposite. A person must overcome the burden Christianity has imposed on us. We must question rather than obey the tablets of "thou shall nots". See the chapter "The Three Metamorphoses of the Spirit" in Zarathustra. — Fooloso4