I'll vote for you. But what's to do when "fascism, alt-right and white supremacy" are in power? 'Fight the power' seems like an idea...

what level of disobedience to the system is justified & effective? Will property damage cause enough disruption to force the holders of economic power to the table? Will just being out in the street, refusing to comply with curfews etc. continue to build pressure?

Thinking about it, it's hard to maintain any hope that anything can cause the necessary change. Just like with gun control, climate change etc. — Echarmion

So I think all civil disobedience is justified until such time as there are concrete proposals on the table for police reform with reasonable assurances that the plans will be implemented. That seems to be the immediate, and justified, demand of the protesters at this time.

It's not enough for a fair and just society but it's a good start. — Benkei

This looks like the discussion that needs to be had. It is obvious, to some of us at least, that the institutions of government have lost the moral authority, and public protest and mass disobedience is justified. "Riot" can be seen to be a political term used in attempting to delegitimise the protest, and legitimise the suppression of protest.

Clearly, the destruction of property to save life and prevent injustice is legitimate and justified.
Clearly, there has not been much concession made to the protest, but rather an intensifying suppression.

What level can such escalation lead to? It can lead to a race war and to genocide. But if that is where the government takes its stand, then it will make clear what some of us already suspect, that a race war and genocide is government policy.

I am a man of peace; just because I happen to have invaded Austria and Poland, doesn't mean I want war...

To suggest that Streetlight's posts and Chester's are in any way the same just because they both have something of a brash turn of phrase is to completely miss the point. — Isaac

I'll second that. One can put up with a degree of rudeness if the philosophy is worth reading.

Personally, however, I would prefer a forum that was more strict about flames and rudeness, and that would require some moderation on the part of some moderators. But the mods are rude, and they don't ban just for rudeness. But when you get pulled up about low quality posts, and you respond with defiance, that has to get you banned whatever the language policy.

It would be a shame to lose good posters over this, but it doesn't look like hypocrisy to me at all. But even if it is not, it is worth considering that rudeness and aggression are off-putting and even intimidating to some people, and apart from those here who object, there may be others who lurk a while and retire without contributing because they find the atmosphere uncongenial. It wouldn't harm the philosophy to leave out the insults.

That's not very friendly. We enforcement experts call that 'suicide by mod'.

Bear with me. Or don't and pass on. — Ciceronianus the White

The bear gets my vote.

As an ex admin, and ex mod, my axes are all well ground and my hatchets buried, along with the bodies. Trolls come in many flavours, but the essence, I would say, is to be a wind-up artist. The trick is to provoke the anger of the other, and then get all righteous about it. The best troll is adept at producing invisible flames.

Sometimes misunderstandings can be interpreted as trolling, so one has to look for a pattern of behaviour, rather than over-interpret a brief exchange. Sometimes trolls will make a big wind-up thing about what is and isn't trolling. Sometimes mods can behave like trolls.

Sometimes ex admin/mods indulge in a little light trolling by way of illustration.

I don’t think anyone commenting here is looking the other way — I like sushi

I don't think I know how to respond to that. When I say looking the other way, I mean this:-

Man, those local business owners must have really, really had it coming. — BitconnectCarlos

Here, quite explicitly, it is the destruction of property - and worse of the sacred 'business' that is the problem. Not the destruction of a black man.

What's the problem? Either it's the destruction by the mob, or it's the destruction by the cops. Each is the problem to the other and you have to look one way or the other, and not both. Trying to look both ways just gets you reviled and killed.


Obviously, State troopers and more deaths of black men is the solution to the riots. Press down hard on the feelings of outrage, and try and turn them inwards. And obviously it is not the solution to the other problem, of extra-judicial racist murders by cops. So what you gonna rationalise?

I think it reasonably fair to say progress has been made, albeit with backwards steps along the way. The encouraging signs are that these public protests look string enough not to dissipate - this looks like an opportunity for rational discussion and a rethink about troubled areas in US culture. — I like sushi

I hope you are right, there are not the lynchings and the overt apartheid there used to be. But things that have gone can return, and since the organisations responsible are still active, and black people are still dying for nothing, progress is not huge. I have proposed education, I have proposed specific empathic training for law enforcement, I could suggest that the KKK be termed a terrorist organisation, rather than ... a non organisation that combats fascism. I can offer loads of suggestions that you may think are rational to even practical. I really hope this time around it doesn't take a world war to defeat fascism.

But first identify the problem. We cannot even get that far on this thread of supposedly reasonable people. It's not a problem of black people being violent, but of them being denied justice, and denied a place in society, and the violence that supports this state of affairs is deeply entrenched and clear to see, but people are still looking the other way. How can we have a rational discussion in these conditions?

Indeed, so don't argue for it on their behalf. — Marchesk

Well Perhaps don't insinuate that I do. I have enough humility to argue on my own behalf, and not other people's. And at no point have I argued for violence; I identify as pacifist. However, I do suggest that violence works. This is because my experience is that it does. It pretty much runs the world. That does not mean I am in favour.

I am not sure that fascism can be defeated without violence, and I do not condemn it in the victims of fascism. And America is a fascist state.

I've only posted like 10 different black people asking for peaceful protests. — Marchesk

Why would you think that anyone thinks that black people favour violence?

Where does the violence come from? where did it begin? (hint: knee on neck until dead.)

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/31/politics/trump-underground-bunker-white-house-protests/index.html

Does this mean it's nearly the end of the war already? What is it with fascists and bunkers?

However, it's hard for them to do so if the state orderers more militant actions. You, as an officer, only have a choice of putting down your weapon or complying with the state fascism. — Christoffer

Yes. Hence, Malcolm X "by any means necessary". And it is not an accident that things are coming to a head as the last of the WW2 generation is passing away. Personally, I would prefer a few riots to a 6 year global conflagration, but I've always been a bit of a softie.

Something that can be done.

https://www.policeempathy.com/?fbclid=IwAR2xXlsoOstXTuxkJspy7mddc0AQQq-Xv_jL6v__-d4oYR6nkVurxG-joec

If one only recognises that the problem is not people rioting...

HELLO!

Is there a chance of a discussion about where this may lead the state of US politics in the near/far future?

It looks like the general public are doing as much as they can about this at the moment. What is the end goal? How do we get there? What steps/measures need to be put into place? — I like sushi

Hello. I think some people are glad to have got your attention. By 'you' I mean anyone who has not been paying very much attention to the BLM campaign. This is the first step, to notice the problem.

Now I suggest you take the next step of realising that this problem is not new. Here is some evidence that I repeat for emphasis.

Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. ... But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. — Martin Luther King

A man of peace, famously, so pay attention when he points to "large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity." We have seen some of that here.

And this is from a long time ago, but it could have been written today about the present. So we know that the problem is intractable. I myself have seen and heard it all before, and so I am somewhat skeptical that it will lead anywhere this time. The goal is justice. Peace only counts as peace if there is justice. If rebellion is suppressed by fear, that is not peace, that is violent oppression. What has been manifested in a few days is a violence that has been there all along, the violence of oppression.

Books have been written on the measures needed to dismantle and combat systemic racism. do you want a book-list?

Edit: It's got to start with education. Here's an ignorant white Brit's introductory reading suggestions.

Franz Fanon: The Wretched of the Earth.
Paulo Friere: The pedagogy of the Oppressed.
James Baldwin: The Fire Next Time.
Audre Lorde: Sister Outsider.
Richard Wright: Black Boy.
Malorie Blackman Noughts and Crosses.
Zora Neale Hurston. Their Eyes Were Watching God.
Maya Angelou I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.

I could go on.

Our lives show that we have certain beliefs, and many of these beliefs are shown by our actions. — Sam26

So the discussion between Moore and the skeptic, and the one here to which you have not much responded are in a sense, fake. One cannot have a discussion about whether or not one is having a discussion. Having the discussion at all is showing the certain belief, which one is then purporting to prove or doubt.

I'm not sure what to say. Is that a zen koan? — Professor Death

Interesting notion. If it was a zen koan, I don't think that was an adequate response. Note the connection between the response and the responsibility. You needed to show your zen, and you didn't, because you didn't take responsibility for your response but tried to put it on me. A failure to be fully conscious.

But I am not a zen master, so I count your non-response more as a success that you are reduced to reifying a form of words rather than a single word is progress.

I'm not sure what to say. Is that a zen koan?

Is that a zen koan?

I used to work in the UK subsidiary, and I discovered how many managers it takes to change a light bulb. It was six, and a mechanical lifting platform, and of course a warehouse operative to actually change the bulb.

↪Benkei Order is better than total anarchy...everyone knows that. — Chester

If it was true for everyone, if everyone knew it, there would be order. But there is not order. Extra-judicial killings are disorder. Slavery is disorder. Oppression is disorder. Look at the source of the disorder, not the manifestation. It is the knee on the neck that lights the fire.

The peaceful protest that has everyone's backing has made no progress in 50 years. That is a fact.
— unenlightened

When has there been such a thing on this scale since the 60s? — Marchesk

There have been peaceful protests all that time that you know about and have been supporting because everyone has. There hasn't been violence on this scale in that time, and evidently, no progress has been made because we are still suggesting that police officers who support extra-judicial racist killings ought not to be police officers, but clearly they are, and they are not all going to retire because one chief says so.

Now we are talking. Now there is some consideration being given. But people have been shouting loudly and peacefully that black lives matter for a while now, and nothing changed. Nothing has changed in 50 years of peace. "All we are saying, is give riot a chance." It might wake people up. It might get complacent white people to think for a moment about what supports their peaceful lives. It seems to have woken you up.

↪unenlightened If I disagree with you do I have a right to come around your house and smash the fuck out of it? — Chester

Well let me see, is my knee on your neck? I think it would be an over-reaction to my failure to die of covid. I have had a brick through the window, and I wasn't happy about it, but what is your point? We are not talking about disagreement, we are talking about extra-judicial killing and widespread oppression of a community.

What does it require? the campaign has been going a long time, now. What would work?
— unenlightened

The ongoing peaceful protest, which had everyone's backing. — Marchesk

That is a pious fantasy. An unarmed black guy is murdered in public view on camera while his fellows look on and do nothing, and no one is arrested.

Until there's a riot.

The peaceful protest that has everyone's backing has made no progress in 50 years. That is a fact.

Doesn't require looting and burning. — Marchesk

What does it require? the campaign has been going a long time, now. What would work? No one here was thinking about the issues much a few days ago.

This is was also a step in the right direction where the police chief tells officers to resign who didn't have a problem with kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes. — Marchesk

If that is a step in the right direction, there's a long long long way to go. And how many steps have been taken in fifty years since MLK and Malcolm X? Approximately none. Still trying to get that boot off the neck. Is anyone supposed to think it is progress when under these extremes a police chief says something placatory?

A step in the right direction would be to stop the extra-judicial killings; suggesting it would be a good idea is just more bull. This story is too old now to believe crisis speeches.

Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. ... But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. — Martin Luther King

I was but a youth back then; how much has changed.

I think I'm done with this farrago of apologetics for a racist, fascist, and collapsing state.Keep up the good work chaps, no need to change direction.

Well, I don't destroy their places of work for one. I feel like this is becoming more about me than anything ideas-based so I don't see how it's too relevant. Nonetheless, I'm a pretty generous tipper and I'm happy to give personal financial advise/help people figure out a budget. — BitconnectCarlos

I didn't make it about you, you did. See I don't claim to care too much about strangers' economic situations, so I don't have to defend it. Stick to abstracts like 'justice' is my advice. You know - ideas.

A bunch of random property damage scares no-one except some small business owners. — Echarmion

So why's the army there then?

Chauvin was arrested. — BitconnectCarlos

When? About five minutes ago. After big trouble not before it.

What I do care about is people and children going hungry because their jobs were lost because their workplaces were destroyed. — BitconnectCarlos

Do you? Really? What do you do about it?

Sounds like consciousness comes from the I then — Professor Death

You know that's nonsense, don't you. Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere or go anywhere.

Deal with the row. I move the third duck from underneath to alongside and there is the row. It hasn't come from anything. I move it back to underneath, and there is no row; it hasn't gone anywhere. I could say that a row is an arrangement, or a relationship , but then you would start talking about arrangements and relationships as if they were things, and it would be the same confusion that Plato produced.

So consciousness is the relation of responsibility that the world has with itself. Happy now? But you will manage to make a confusion of it, by holding on to this definition as if it reifies consciousness.

Me, the world, and consciousness, or equivalently, me, my wife, and the marriage, or three ducks and a row - this is what you must not do.

It doesn't make sense to me how people can support destroying businesses which had nothing to do with Floyd's death or mistreatment towards blacks by police in general. — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, I can see that. If it was about one man being killed, I would agree with you. But it isn't. One man is killed by another while other police look on impassively and the whole thing is on video, and no one is arrested. If this passes, then anything passes. So I am going to throw all my toys out of the pram, and all your toys out of your pram, and every other bugger's toys out of their prams, until everyone altogether decides that this will not pass. This is war. Don't act surprised when Poland gets invaded.

I'm challenging you - and people like you who support the rioting - because you're insane. — BitconnectCarlos

The updated version of drapetomania. Some people regard accusations of insanity with suspicion, when it meshes with politics. It's an extreme ingratitude for the countless benefits of Western Civilisation. Like the Boston tea party - pointless destruction by opponents of the rule of law.

I didn't have to. I could have put them like this:

Duck, duck
duck.

But I like to get my ducks in a row.

I put them there.

What are they? — Professor Death

No, they are not what.

What are keys? Yes. Keys are shaped metal devices for opening locks.

Here's a simple example:

Duck, duck, duck.

Three ducks in a row. Now we have a row of ducks, but what is a row? You can see it plain as day, but when you point to it, you are pointing to the ducks. Where is the row? What is the row?

The row, in platonic terms, is the form instantiated by the particular relationship of, in this case, 3 ducks. And thence, by answering the innocuous seeming question, we have 2000 years of confusion.

Ducks are things; a row is not a thing. What is a row? No, a row is not a what. there are three things up there, and they are all ducks. The ducks are in a row. Stop.

Burning precincts and cop cars should be enough to get everyone's attention. No need to destroy the rest of the community. — Marchesk

Scorched Earth is a venerable military tactic, of proven effectiveness.

Where does consciousness reside? — Benj96

Suppose I ask you where my marriage resides? Is it in the certificate, or the ceremony, in me, in my wife, in both of us, is it emergent, is it imaginary?

Don't answer, don't vote. It's a wrong question. Your question is also a wrong question. It makes sense to ask where things are, or where they reside. My keys reside in my pocket, and I bring them out when I need to use them. Consciousness and marriage are not things.

uprising, or rebellion — 180 Proof

I certainly hope so. Indeed I hope for a revolution. But I don't have enough breath to hold at the moment for pandemic reasons.

Thing is, what does it take to get a racist murdering cop arrested?

And the answer is not overwhelming evidence, peaceful protest, reasoned argument, or any of the other wonderful things that the mayor and the governor have praised, such as 'obeying the curfew'. It takes a nationwide riot.

So well done to the rioters, without you, this would just have been another obvious miscarriage of justice that decent people shook their heads at and then forgot to do anything about. There's nothing like a riot for getting things done. Don't calm down.

A student asked if I'd pay her for virtual sex to raise money for her law degree. Is that ethical, do you think? — ernestm

No. It is immoral to charge students for education.