I've got a couple of Hebrew Bibles...and they have the same story as the Christian Bibles. — Frank Apisa

The same story but not the same moral to the story.

Which moral of the story do you see?

Should Adam not have eaten and derailed god's plan?

Regards
DL

Explain to me (to us) the difference as you see it. — Frank Apisa

My view is closer to the Jewish view that shows us and god coming out of Eden as successes and not the failure that Christianity put to it.

Let me let the Jews tell you.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Regards
DL

To then co-exist as a God, rather than a member, IS evil. — xyzmix

Why, when gods are here, as Jesus pointed out, to serve humans. That is good, not evil.

As you can see, I do not define gods as supernatural and so they never give up their humanity or duty to society.

Gnostic Christian Cathars, for instance, have Parfait as their highest possible spiritual position.

The only possible gods we can have are human ones. That may be why some of the Roman Emperors named themselves gods and their children, children of god.

Regards
DL

Yes it is. — xyzmix

It is what?

None of us have the ability to own the world — xyzmix

Reality belies that, given that, what, the top ten rich people own 90 odd % of the world.

All they have to do, and have done, is buy the politicians who are eager to be owned.

Regards
DL

The god in the story was an idiot invented by an idiot. — Frank Apisa

Actually, the reverse is true if you reverse the Christian take of a fall to the original Jewish view of Eden being where man was elevated.

The idiot label belongs to the Christians who reversed the moral of the story. The Jewish version is quite good and elevating to the ego instead of tearing it down the way Christianity did. All while even more stupidly saying that Adam furthered god's plan.

If it is the case that there are alternative ways to listen to accepted understandings of text read by many people, shouldn't you be starting there? — Valentinus

I thought I was doing just that by showing the contradiction in Christian thinking of calling Eden where we fell, --- while at the same time them saying that sin is necessary to god's plan.

As to Gnostic Christianity. It, due to it's esoteric side, predates Christianity and is demonstrably a more moral religion.

That fact is why the inquisitors where sent to annihilate us.

The winner of those god wars is the inferior religion and without collusion from governments would have disappeared along with it. stupid literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

You are correct in that there was no real sin in the consuming of knowledge. That is why it has been shifted to the desire to be a god.

The less astute think it was disobedience, but that fails for the same reason you put above. Adam would not know it was evil to disobey.

Yahweh thus murdered A & E unjustly.

Regards
DL

How are we to know which? — Gregory

You would not be able to know, so, like all religious or spiritual thoughts, we would have to gage them by their moral content.

If Christians did that, they would reject their genocidal god and stop thinking of that prick as good.

Believers tend not to care if they follow satanic ideas or if they are moral or not when the idea is from their god.

Take the Jesus died for me lie. A self serving view that they reverse by saying Jesus is serving them, while they ignore that Jesus would have to break the laws he said he came to fulfill.

That is stupidly analogous to a master dying for his slave. Stupid is as stupid thinks.

Regards
DL

William Craig says the resurrection is history, — Gregory

He is a liar just as all preachers of supernatural gods are. They have to be given that they have no access to a supernatural realm.

Intelligent people know this and will recognize the lies.

Regards
DL

The Catholic Church has never contradicted itself in infallible teachings, — Gregory

That may be true, but we do know that some of their teachings were plagiarized and or forged.

Even the name Christian was likely plagiarized from the Chrestians since there are documents known to be altered from Chrestian to Christian.

Regards
DL

Just that they base their belief on a number of old documents by Jesus — Gregory

??

There are no documents signed by Jesus that I know of.

He was illiterate and followed the Oral Torah. He may have been a Pharisee because they also put man above god, just as Jesus did, in the words that the scribes put into his mouth.

That is why people were excited when the Nag Hammadi find showed what some things that were the original sayings of Jesus.

Regards
DL

Protestants accepting Calvins or Augustines ideas on original sin (which says it is actual sin committed in Adam's loins) leads to hatred of down syndrome people, twins, ect. — Gregory

Yet the bible is clear that Adam's loins were not involved as he did not even know he was naked before eating of the tree of knowledge.

Sin must first be triggered by the mind and saying that loins can sin is a false premise. Loins cannot plan to do good nor evil. They do not think.

Protestants have no authority to interpret the Bible, or say what is the Bible, apart from the "Spirit". — Gregory

Original Christianity interpreted the Jews, who had interpreted the myths from Sumer and Egypt.
If Protestants have no authority then neither do Islam Christianity as a whole not Judaism.
I think that we should all feel this way and then perhaps the religious will stop starting wars.

Catholicism has major problems for me, but it has a stronger pedigree than Protestantism. — Gregory

By pedigree, are you saying that their interpretation and distorting of the Jewish myth is better, --- or are you referring to their inquisitions and witch burnings as well as their lower levels of inquisitions and jihads against women's and gay's equality today?

Regards
DL

How do you treat a restaurant worker when they don't make your food right? — christian2017

Christians, with their homophobic and misogynous teachings, would berate a gay or woman but not a straight male.

Thanks for the opportunity to show your garbage religion at work.

Gnostic Christians are universalists and would just ask for a redo regardless of sexual orientation or gender.

Regards
DL

You want to chat religion and philosophy after your log boring psychobabble B.S.

Go away and take your lies with you.

Regards
DL

Think about that for a minute. It's not obviously moral — Gregory

No argument from me on this.

It bears repeating to all Christians and I do whenever I can.

Regards
DL

Not sure I'm following that one. Are you suggesting there is no forgiveness in life? — 3017amen

The baby you referred to was Yahweh. No?

Or did you mean his homophobic and misogynous genocidal god loving religion?

Regards
DL

Good! But are you now suggesting one should throw the baby out with the bathwater ? — 3017amen

Is a genocidal son murdering baby worth saving?

Regards
DL

Christianity is misogynous and homophobic. How should you resolve that problem? — 3017amen

All I can do is try to have people recognize that they have no just cause for their discrimination against women and gays.

Regards
DL

What is tough love is Christianity and it's homophobic and misogynous teachings as well as the idea that a genocidal prick of a god can somehow be good.

I try to reduce that harm, while the Christians do not even see the harm, given that their moral sense has been corrupted.

You keep smiling and laughing at all those victims. That's a good mental midget.

Regards
DL

A part of you dies. — Leviosa

Yes, but a better you is born. One could say reborn.

I have experience a paradigm shift due to new knowledge. It is quite a process.

I think it advisable that we should perpetually seek new knowledge and gods and thus not end in the idol worship of what we think is the final answer.

Regards
DL

Jesus Christ is extremely smart and can predict everything. — christian2017

Buddy.

You started with this flat out lie and you want to chat!!!

Stop lying and I am here for you.

No I did not bother reading your other lies. I am careful with mine and if you cannot be ------

Regards
DL

Sin was born with the egg. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I agree.

Sin is natural and we would not exist if sin was not here and now.

Regards
DL

[quote="frank;384471 "Sorry about that. But you're still going to hell.[/quote]

I need proof of hell, and see none, and know that it is illogical and god destroying if a god would have to create such a place, --- for purposeless torture and death.

Regards
DL

maybe mercy is questionable — Gregory

When a law is well written, mercy is built into it or not required.

Mercy is arbitrary and a rapist, for instance, should not get mercy just for voting for the judge.

If a victim, we would likely tell the judge where to shove his mercy.

Regards
DL

You're too easy. — frank

You should not take advantage of a guy with no memory for faces and names.

Regards
DL

Satan is going to get you, watch out!!!!!!! — 3017amen

All the biblical characters fear me. I am hard on imaginary constructs.

Regards
DL

I'm lazy like Satan. — frank

You are also quite the liar.

Regards
DL

I'm praying for your soul, you are condemned to hell brother! Is that what you want to hear?

Hahaha — 3017amen

You go ahead and pray to the satanic Yahweh.

That will show just hoe low you will go, morality wise.

Regards
DL

Your poll relates to entirely different subject matter. — Hanover

My post spoke directly to literalism.

WTF do you think it refers to?

Regards
DL

I'll pray for your immortal soul. — frank

Not to your genocidal prick of a god please. He is more satanic than Satan if you could all the bodies and include all the innocent babies and children.

I hope your thinking matures and you put away the things of children. That being your brain killing supernatural beliefs.

If you are going to stupidly read your myth literally, then remember that by Jesus' standard, there are no real Christians as they could do all Jesus did and more.

You are either lazy like Satan, or lying to us about your beliefs.

Regards
DL

Shame came upon them after they ate of the fruit but was that the shame of guilt? — Gregory

Not for gaining their education and no longer being blind to their nakedness.

Yopu do not likely walk about in the nude around others and should understand why A & E did not like to do so either.

Eve may have seen the forked tongue of the snake and thought of the underside of Adam's penis and not wanting to be obedient to him but to possess him through knowledge of the tree, she went and ate. — Gregory

No comment as there is nothing in the myth to indicate any sexual content till gen 4 on.

Were the first humans were truly vegetarians? — Gregory

Just close according to naturalists. Our closest relative is 95% vegetarian and 5% meat eater.

Man has to cook his meat or it is too hard for us to chew as we do not have the right teeth.

with the male simply being more assertive (because of the fall?). — Gregory

Try testosterone and not sin as the cause of male aggression.

Did they have relations in the garden and after they opened up to each other he became fearful of her femininity? — Gregory

No. The opposite is indicated. Their eyes were close to sexual notions till after they ate.

So the story has a flaw in my opinion — Gregory

That is because you are not reading it right or accurately. Just read it as is and it becomes more simple and clear.

For your consideration.
God is said to have punished A & E for disobedience. Did you note that A & E were told to reproduce way back in Gen 1, yet they were not punished for that first disobedience.

Quite the glitch. No?

Regards
DL


.

Bishop You're going to hell. — frank

Only the stupid and brain dead will believe in a literal hell.

The liars must have gotten to you early.

I sympathise and hope you recover.

Regards
DL

This isn't responsive to my claim that the biblical prohibition against homosexuality derives from Leviticus and not Genesis. — Hanover

Yes it was, just not to your satisfaction. I did not know I had to stroke your ego for every little thing you get right.

I usually speak to what I disagree with and not what I agree with. That seems to be how people respond to me.

Regards
DL

Modern scholarship in Christianity don't even take the Gospels at face value — Gregory

Believers are not listening to their hierarchies. Not surprising given the amount of lying the preachers of the supernatural based religions have to do.

Regards
DL

I would strongly recommend you study same." — 3017amen

Been there and done that.

Regards
DL

I would strongly recommend you study same. — 3017amen

Been there and don that a long time ago.

After all, in the 21st Century information age, shouldn't you be more sophisticated in your perspective on these things? — 3017amen

On my axe to grind.

If you are happy with the homophobia and misogyny, then do nothing to fight it.

You not understanding, and trying to discourage the seeking of a better view for gays and women, and just let those continue, you are not much of a man.

Keep your satanic advice as I live by the Golden Rule.

Regards
DL

and it's not clear if you use the term Christian to include all denominations, including Mormons who have a a very distinct theology). — Hanover

so your claim that literalism is necessary for all Christians — Hanover

All who believe in Jesus and or the Christ, have to read scriptures literally as that is the only place, basically, where anything is said of a Jesus.

I think that that is the vast majority of Christians. Mind you we have to ignore Jesus' description of believers or those with faith. If I go by his standard, there are no Christians at all.

why the use of metaphor would be off limits — Hanover

Actually, scriptures say that if one wants to perfect ones wisdom, one has to get out of the Christian viewpoint and loo elsewhere for perfection in thought.

As you pointed out, Jesus himself used metaphors for the peasants. He also had a more complicated teaching for the disciples.

Your stat is belied by other surveys that put belief in Jesus at about 70% and in hell which is even higher.

Regards
DL

That is, the anti-homosexuality laws do not derive from Genesis, — Hanover

Sigh.

How often have you heard some a hole Christian say, god said Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve?

How often have you heard, he shall rule over you, when Christians are trying to justify their misogyny?

Regards
DL

From my own perspective, the secular discussion is the most interesting. — Hanover

I agree.

As to perspective, I mentioned the Christian take and the Jewish take.

I did not mention the roots of the Jewish myth as coming out of Egypt and Sumer.

I don't care about the latter as the homophobia and misogyny in Christianity today is from their not understanding Eden and sin.

Regards
DL

you're struggling to reconcile something... , no? — 3017amen

Yes, that being the answer to why Christians are so conflicted on Eden and cannot seem to decide if we fell or were elevated, yet the myth has been used by Christians to accentuate their homophobia and misogyny and refusal to grant all women and gays full legal status that they deserve.

Regards
DL