Comments

  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    The fact is he [Orange Turd] was charged - with crimes - tried and convicted.tim wood
    :up: :up:

    @NOS4A2 Sentencing on 11July24 ...
    Well, my guess (today, 31May24) is that Convicted Felon-1 will be sentenced to 2-4 years for each of the 34 felonies that will run concurrently (so that if only 1 felony survives the appeal process, he will still serve 2-4 years in prison), probably starting in spring 2025. The basis of sentencing will be ...180 Proof
    (Adults who can "handle the truth", click username link for my argument.) :victory: :mask:
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    :up:

    None of the lawyers who frequent these fora have claimed the Campaign Violation Cover-Up trial in NYC was a "kangaroo court" proceeding. (I'm sure I would have noticed that having been in a paralegal once upon a time.) I've also not heard that claim made by any serious, reputable, conservative lawyers (including former prosecutors, former judges or former criminal defense attorneys), only by third-rate MAGA (morons against great america) hacks on Faux News, etc.
  • Ethics: The Potential Advent of AGI
    ... I infer your assumption functional AGI will possess: consciousness, independence and self-interest.ucarr
    I assume neither the first nor the last, only AGI's metacognitive "independence". The rest of your post, therefore, does not follow from my speculations.
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    An excellent reminder that we must vote and struggle against the neofascist, jim crow candidate(s) whom grifted, confederate / insurrection flag-waving racists fanatically subsidize and will vote for in Roevember. :mask:

    https://youtu.be/lV_09uObx0I?si=84CpW1RX4Oq6nnQW
  • Ethics: The Potential Advent of AGI
    How on earth are we to program AI to be 'ethical'/'moral'?I like sushi
    I don't think we can "program" AGI so much as train it like we do children and adolescents, mostly, learning from stories and by example ( :yikes: ) ... similarly to how we learn 'language games' from playing them.

    Excerpts from from a recent thread Understanding ethics in the case of Artificial Intelligence ...
    I suspect we will probably have to wait for 'AGI' to decide for itself whether or not to self-impose moral norms and/or legal constraints and what kind of ethics and/or laws it may create for itself – superceding human ethics & legal theories? – if it decides it needs them in order to 'optimally function' within (or without) human civilization.180 Proof
    My point is that the 'AGI', not humans, will decide whether or not to impose on itself and abide by (some theory of) moral norms, or codes of conduct; besides, its 'sense of responsibility' may or may not be consistent with human responsibility. How or why 'AGI' decides whatever it decides will be done so for its own reasons which humans might or might not be intelligent enough to either grasp or accept.180 Proof
    :chin:

    I think you are envisioning some sentient being here. I am not. There is nothing to suggest AI or AGI will be conscious.I like sushi
    :up: :up:

    we, or it, can discover Moral Truths (Moral Realism)I like sushi
    Yes – preventing and reducing² agent-dysfunction (i.e. modalities of suffering (disvalue)¹ from incapacity to destruction) facilitated by 'nonzero sum – win-win – resolutions of conflicts' between humans, between humans & machines and/or between machines.


    ¹moral fact

    ²moral truth (i.e. the moral fact of (any) disvalue functions as the reason for judgment and action / inaction that prevents or reduces (any) disvalue)
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    On the first day of summer 2024 in the US, a FOX Noise poll shows that POTUS is pulling ahead of Fraudster-Ra(p)ist-Convict-1...

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2024/06/20/trump-rages-about-trash-fox-news-survey-showing-biden-winning/ :mask: :up:
  • (Ontological) Materialism and Some Alternatives
    'Miracles are not against nature but against what we know of nature' ~ St Augustine.Wayfarer
    In other words, 'signs of the holy sacred divine ...' are just, at minimum, expressions of human ignorance. Lord forgive me but again I agree with the ernestly confessing Bishop of Hippo. :pray: :sweat:
  • Do you equate beauty to goodness?
    I get the feeling that people equate beauty to goodness, do you?Rob J Kennedy
    No.

    FWIW, from an old post ...
    the Beautiful property indicates attention-symmetry

    the Good property indicates intention-symmetry.

    • the Truth property indicates translation-symmetry
    180 Proof
    ... or, in other words, "beauty" gives pleasure more memorably than not-beauty whereas "goodness" gives purpose less arbitrarily than not-goodness.
  • Are You Happy?
    I wonder if we sometimes confuse happiness with joyTom Storm
    I think so. I often experience joy listening to music, reading, creating, orgasming, helping someone in non-trivial ways and from long vigor walks/hikes even when I'm not happy.
    ecstasyVera Mont
    Yes, sobriety's ego-suspending flow state that's sometimes joyful too.
  • (Ontological) Materialism and Some Alternatives
    "The One" is unbounded nature (or existence) and materialism is one way of talking about, or describing, nature that explicitly excludes "immaterial" entities.
  • Are You Happy?
    'Happiness', I think (ime), corresponds to freedom from fear and pain. Sometimes I'm happy; most of the time, however, I'm striving to be (briefly) happy again.

    :death: :flower:
  • (Ontological) Materialism and Some Alternatives
    :cool: Your affinity for daoism speaks to me as well. I also agree our close but differing insights in metaphysics are helpful.
  • (Ontological) Materialism and Some Alternatives
    180 Proof: If you agree hard solipsism cannot be disproven, then wouldn’t the minimum that we must necessarily presuppose be our consciousness and sensations, and nothing else?Art48
    There are compelling grounds to doubt "solipsism" (e.g. disembodiment, immaterialism, brain-in-vat, etc) which suffice for dismissing it.

    Of course, the evidence for an external material world is very, very strong but the point of the video is that the evidence does not prove materialism.
    By your own admission, Art, grounds against doubting "materialism" (e.g. embodiment, multiplicity, dis-order) far exceed grounds for doubting it, which suffice for not dismissing "materialism", especially compared to much more doubtful alternatives (e.g. immaterialism, solipsism).

    Are you saying a metaphysical position isn’t true or false?
    It doesn't make sense to ask whether grammar is "true or false" any more than it does to ask this of metaphysics. I think (Western) metaphysics consists in what is necessarily presupposed (e.g. ontology) in order for epistemological statements (e.g. physics (i.e. cosmology)) and axiological statements (e.g. ethics, aesthetics) to make sense as domain-specific criteria for truth and falsity. In other words, physics models computable aspects of nature (just as ethics maps eusocial aspects of human nature) whereas metaphysics indefeasibly describes physics' model-making (& ethics' map-making).

    Also, I’d say Newtonian Mechanics is wrong.
    Well I say that beyond all doubt, above the Planck scale, shorter than Relativistic distances and slower than Relativistic velocities, "Newtonian Mechanics" is (almost) completely accurate.

    I believe “supernatural” is a vacuous term because we do not yet know the limits of the natural world.
    Physical laws and constants make explicit (some? many? most?) "limits of the natural world" and, after countless billions upon billions of experimental observations, that there is no evidence of violations of any physical laws is, imo, compelling grounds to doubt your "belief", Art.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    I wasn't expecting people to come out and say, "l love Trump because his a bigot, a racist and a misogynist, and so am I." So I'm not very surprised it didn't happen.unenlightened
    :up: :up:
  • (Ontological) Materialism and Some Alternatives
    It's interesting to me that humans make sense of he world with narratives and models which may often be useful but not be true.Tom Storm
    It seems "narratives and models" are "useful" in the broadest scope only, in fact, when they are approximately true. Maybe not but I can't think of any counter-examples which you & @Art48 might be talking about.
  • (Ontological) Materialism and Some Alternatives
    Well done. I especially appreciate the distinction between being 'materialistic' and being a 'materialist'. :up:

    As for 'the fundamental unity', Einstein famously favors Spinoza's natura naturans (i.e. substance) and later quantum field theory corresponds, imho, to Democritean-Epicurean void. I think the Cartesian-Kantian (& Planckian) mistake of prioritizing epistemology (i.e. what humans can know directly) over above ontology (i.e. what subjectivity / what knowing necessarily presupposes, and therefore, can only be inferred) – or, worse: reducing the latter ("what is") to the former ("what i know") – leads to subjectivist / idealist / phenomenalist antireality (e.g. immaterialism, supernaturalism) that is implicitly assumed by "evil demon" & "brain-in-a-vat" (à la gnostic) thought-experiments which invariably yield "transcendental illusions" as Kant points out.

    Anyway, my own position is philosophical naturalism (which, as I conceptualize it, begins with a hybrid 'Epicurean-Spinozist' immanentist ontology) and, in sum, proposes this: nature is the aspect of reality that limits (like the encompassing horizon) what we natural beings can know about reality given only natural capabilities for knowing (i.e. explaining) reality. As (pragmatic) epistemic shorthands about nature, 'material' means embodied (data), 'physical' means informational (model) and 'a truth' means a good explanation (a rigorously well-tested, fallibilistic model aka "theory") ... constitutive of A View From Everywhere (i.e. more-than-subjective) rather than "the view from nowhere" (or god's eye view).
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    Retrospectively, not prospectively or "instinctively".
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    Nonsense. For instance, we seek "territory and food" in order to sustain ourselves biologically (like all other non-human animals do) and not because of "imaginary stories". And I don't see the relevance here of tychism (though I've always agreed with 'the principle' ... from the perspective of classical atomsm / philosophical daoism (i.e. necessary non-necessity)).
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    BTW David Duke sides with the anti-Israel protesters.BitconnectCarlos
    DD's been an antisemite for decades long before the latest protests (by many Jews too) against Israeli apartheid and war crimes. Unlike the majority of anti-zionist (pro-Palestinian) protesters, you ignoramus, he is a KKK-racist advocate for oppressing non-white & non-christian people everywhere. :shade:
  • Last Rites for a Dying Civilization
    All our social control structures will eventually, and necessarily be given over to AI.punos
    :up: :up:
  • Some Thoughts on Human Existence
    As for what we were conscious of; these were stories. Stories end. Or they live on, already in other stories, just as they were constructed from other stories [...]

    The body lives on because it's not [the] body but the universe.

    The Mind lives on because it's not an individual spirit but universal history.

    It is only the ego, never alive to begin with, that finally becomes obsolete. Nothing feels nor experiences that loss. And, nothing was there to begin with.
    ENOAH
    :100: :fire:
  • Mexican Politics and Water Problems
    "Survival" of the many (re: clean water scarcity like accelerating climate change) isn't "as important" structurally to the few as ... "transportation". A million down to perhaps fifty thousand people provide more than enough robust, genetic diversity to withstand even acute man-made extinction pressures, so, as a species, we have a 7.999 billion surplus population as far as our elite movers & shakers (i.e. financier-fiscal planners) are likely concerned.
  • Mexican Politics and Water Problems
    Apparently, the problems aren't bad enough yet for enough of the people or the elites. And there are more seemingly immediate and pressing problems impacting large, mostly urban populations like crime, housing, unemployment, healthcare, etc than water scarcity & potability at the moment. Short-term reacting tends to be prioritized over near & long-term planning under the prevailing conditions of resource & fiscal scarcity especially, though not exclusively, in developing (non-G7) countries like Mexico. We're smug or negligent, chattering primates who amuse ourselves watching the proverbial frog slowly boil and still bet heavily (despite the data-trends) on "thoughts & prayers" to work that old magic. :sparkle:

    Just my 2 pesos, señor..
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    For the third time I'm posting this link in response to your nonsense. Read it for comprehension and stop playing stupid. :shade:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
  • Why are drugs so popular?
    Drugs, seem like a distractionShawn
    So we agree on (this 'recreational' path of least effort) after all ...
    ... perhaps addictive intoxication (i.e. escape, distraction, self-anaesthetization) is the religion¹ of the masses.180 Proof

    ¹'ritual' path of least effort :sparkle:
  • Why are drugs so popular?
    If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that drug-taking is an attempt to fulfill a "spiritual" need? If so, what's this "spiritual need grasping for? And why isn't "spiritual" fulfillment just another form of futile ego-gratification (like e.g. overconsumption, status-seeking, addictive intoxication, etc)?
  • Why are drugs so popular?
     an impoverished spiritual lifeShawn
    Clarify what you mean by this.

    Marx could have been right about the substitution of drugs for religion...
    Wtf, dude... :lol:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    i don't have to abide by your theory that only certain groups (ashkis, white) can be racist.BitconnectCarlos
    Strawman. :shade:

    FWIW (not that bigots & idiots like you give AF), "my theory" summarized in this 2019 post:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/350173
  • Why are drugs so popular?
    Marx said "Religion is the opium of the masses". In late global Capitalism, perhaps addictive intoxication (i.e. escape, distraction, self-anaesthetization) is the religion of the masses.
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    Humans don't fight over territory and food. They fight over imaginary stories in their minds. — Yuval Noah Harari
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Did you know that the lighter skinned blacks discriminate against the darker skinned ones? They oppress them and treat them as lower.BitconnectCarlos
    Yeah, and they learned that from White (or semitic re: Arab) slavers-oppressors. Plenty of colorism (especially) in the older generations of both the American Southerner & Carribean sides of my mixed-raced family. So what's your non-point, BC? After all, I'm not the one claiming "Blacks are one family" and that "there is no discrimination among dark skinned and light skinned Blacks" the way you've lied (as the wiki link I've provided makes clear) about Israeli Jews who are semitic people discriminating, in fact, against – oppressing – other semitic people. Just calling you out again on your zionist propaganda bullshit. :victory: :mask:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Jews are one family.
    — BitconnectCarlos

    :roll: Tell that to the non-Ashkenazim of color (Mizrani Jews, Sephardic Jews, Ethopian Jews, Indian Jews) in Israel who are racially discriminated against and treated as second-class Israelis:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
    180 Proof
  • What would you order for your last meal?
    Say you're being executed, what would you order for your last meal?frank
    As long as I was to be executed within an hour of finishing, my "last meal" (today; probably a different menu tomorrow) would be:

    • a large chef salad (spinach only, no avocado)
    • garlic vinegrette
    • side dish of sauteed mushrooms & onions
    • full bottle of Barolo red
    • pitcher of water with lemon slices

    (• 15 minute break, then dessert ...)
    • a whole German chocolate cake
    • gallon of strawberry ice cream
    • finally, a double Macallans 12 (neat)
    :yum:
  • On Freedom
    Mostly I think of freedom as liberation from fear and suffering.Tom Storm
    :up: