Ah yes, the Palestinians and their lemon farms. Did you know that when the Israelites conquered Canaan they were notorious for destroying the lemon farms of the locals? Looks like they're back to finish the job. Israel dedicated to destroying Palestinian lemons since the 13th century BC just like their ancestors. Thanks for the info and sticking up for the little guy.

Whether he's drowning all the men, women and children on the planet, — Tom Storm

The gall of that God. How would you have handled that one? How long do humans get to live in your universe? Go ahead, tell God how it should be done. I can give my version next. Love this game. (I've actually given considerable thought to this one.)

You likely are aware that there was a larger uprising in Warsaw when the Red Army was on the near the city — ssu

:up:

I also believe the Poles around this time '44/'45 were forced to wear stars and were next in line for deportation and death on the basis of their race. After the Jews and gypsies, then the Slavs I guess.

It has many similarities, even if naturally there are differences. — ssu

In analyzing a situation or a historical comparison, power dynamics are important to me as are the fundamental nature of the parties involved & their aims.

The Lebanese Health Official reported that at least 274 people died in these air strikes. Or are those numbers also a propaganda? — ssu

It's hard to know what to make of this figure; if you were to tell me 274 Hezbollah were killed I would cheer. The more dead Hezbollah the better. Obviously the lives of 274 innocent Lebanese civilians would be tragic, although civilian deaths are unfortunately excusable if they were hiding weapons in their house which Hezbollah pays them to do & were killed when the house was struck.

I do take this number with a grain of salt as it contradicts earlier reports and seems inflated.

Well, Bibi has turned the next page and goes for Hezbollah. — ssu

Sure but keep in mind the ~8000 rockets launched into northern Israel by Hezbollah over the past few months. Tens of thousands of Israelis have been forced from their homes and forests are burning and children have been killed playing soccer. Their rockets are truly indiscriminate.

Anyone who's seen my posts know I am not a fan of Wittgenstein's philosophy as it seems to make common sense notions into philosophical "strokes of genius" (heavy on the quotes). — schopenhauer1

I actually like Wittgenstein and find that his thinking has helped me clarify my own. I took a course on him years ago. I still find it helpful to think of e.g. inter-religious discussion as discussion between essentially different self-contained 'language games.' Christian theology, Jewish theology, Buddhist, etc. -- just their own language games. Similarly, the atheist partakes in the same way by stomping his foot down and insisting that divinity does not exist. In the same way the atheist declares the rules of his language game.

EDIT: Within a given language game, certain "moves" are correct or incorrect -- but this is dependent on the language game. The goal of much inter-religious discussion is finding which "moves" (statements) are acceptable within both systems which facilitates harmony.

So from terrorist organization suddenly they change to "puppet authorities"? — ssu

You misunderstand me. I was talking about power relations in the Nazi ghetto versus the Gaza "ghetto." The Nazis oversaw Jewish puppet authorities who could be executed on the spot; Hamas is no Israeli puppet. The ghetto governments were collaborators with Germany, not adversaries of Germany. The Warsaw uprising occurred because the Jews knew they faced immediate deportation and death, not because they saw an opportunity to murder as many left-wing Germans as possible.

In any case, the power dynamic between the two scenarios is not remotely similar.

BTW the pager explosions is quite humiliating for Hezbollah. Wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the Hezbollah member responsible for the acquisition of those 5000 pagers. Another case example how in general Israel is superior to it's foes. — ssu

It was really brilliant, and it mostly only wounded them so it puts a strain on their medical system while taking them out of the fight.

So to be clear: Your view is that Israel is only rightfully/lawfully entitled to the land allocated under the 1947 Partition Plan? And that any Israelis living outside of those borders are legitimate targets?

Do you believe that the Arab countries ought to provide reparations to the millions of Jews who were expelled and had their property seized? And can you see how if, say, only one side were pressured relentlessly to make concessions how this could engender ill-will?

Theft is wrong in all societies, but territorial boundaries change as a result of war all the time. Are you saying that all territorial changes as a result of war are illegitimate/need to be reversed?

...And that the country that lost the territory is justified in murdering the victor's civilians who reside in the lost territory.

And of course murder is condemned in virtually every legal code since Hammurabi and is pretty uniformly regarded as worse than theft. And even killing a thief can be criminal.

If Israel cannot find the culprits and instead sees as its only option to wage a bloody revenge campaign on a civilian population, the answer is obviously 'no'. — Tzeentch

Israel has actually killed and captured quite a few of the culprits, including some of the top Hamas leadership.

The IDF should have put its own house in order first by properly guarding the border. Instead of leaving the door wide open. — Tzeentch

I'm not blaming the victim here. Hamas had a force of around 6,000 and they clearly strategized. I know a force of ~6k would definitely breach the US border.

It reminds me of the Europeans whinging about 'the Russian threat' as they arm Ukraine to the teeth, shun all diplomacy and constantly talk about inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia. — Tzeentch

A weak Russia and a weak or defeated Putin is best for the world. End their 19th century imperial aspirations once and for all and let the country enter the 21st century.

Sure, no "true Jew" has ever thought God became man in the very same sense that no "true Scotsman" has ever told a lie. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Well, Jews have the word of their Scriptures.

I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I devastate Ephraim again.
For I am God, and not a man—
the Holy One among you.

Hosea 11:9

Well, before I did anything I'd need to know what happens after death. Do humans respawn or reincarnate after death? If so then I'd feel much less guilty about their deaths. Anyway, what I do with my newfound Sims would depend on my daily moods.

Presumably God has a much higher level of consciousness than humans so it would be impossible trying to "put myself in the shoes" of God. It would be like asking an ant to imagine itself as Einstein. The universe is different depending on one's level of consciousness and I cannot imagine myself at that state. It seems to be that the biblical God is just the highest/all encompassing level of consciousness/awareness.

Yes but not as a right to self defence but retaliation because Hamas breached ius in bello — Benkei

Is there any meaningful difference between the two? Israel's goals are twofold regardless: Rescue hostages, destroy Hamas.

and any settlers there are fair game. — Benkei

...and we are now permitting the murder of civilians I see. Some highly educated European lawyers rendered Jews stateless ~80 years ago which also made it not illegal to murder them. Perhaps they could have also been seen as occupiers.

Your highest source of authority is international lawyers. And if those lawyers tell you that the mass murder of civilians is permissible then so be it.

Do you believe that Israel is permitted to respond (through force/militarily) to 10/7?

I find hedonism and utilitarianism not particularly interesting. "Happiness" is an unbelievably complicated concept.

aggression — 180 Proof

Heavily politicized and ultimately meaningless term in the context of the current conflict.

A force of ~6000 breaches the Israeli border on 10/7 and viciously slaughters ~1200 and abducts ~250 and apparently in your reality any military response from Israel is a "war crime." Hostage rescue? War crime. Striking back at the perpetrators? War crime. It's all war crimes.

I don't call Benkei names. I give him facts and he responds with ad homs.

No need to get mad.

Consider reading your bible again but this time pretend that you're a Jew.

You're like the fish who asks: "water? what water?"

Luther said some nasty things about Jews and Catholics but he did use the Hebrew Bible as the basis for his translations and clearly had some knowledge of Judaism that he used to demarcate from Christianity. Within the nastiness emerges some truth. I noticed some theological overlap with Jewish tradition in his writings. He makes some sharp inferences. I am of a very split mind about him.

Yes, the anti-Judaism in the gospels is something all Christians must wrestle with.

There have been messianic movements in Judaism. Amy-Jill Levine speculates that Jews may have been praying to or through Jesus. I don't think we'll ever know for sure. I can't even fully determine whether he kept kosher. For Paul it all hangs on the resurrection.

Israel cannot negotiate with a party that insists that Jerusalem is part of the Islamic ummah. From chapter 7 of the 2017 Hamas charter:

"7. Palestine is at the heart of the Arab and Islamic Ummah and enjoys a special status. Within Palestine there exists Jerusalem, whose precincts are blessed by Allah."

Well, you did have the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, so things have gone quite similarly in that case. — ssu

Not similar. In the Warsaw uprising it was the resistance that led it, not the puppet authorities. The Warsaw ghetto uprising occurred because the Jews knew they were facing imminent deportation and death. Their leaders were not powerful millionaires/billionaires with ties to powerful nations. Every single person in that ghetto was essentially powerless & facing imminent death. They knew they were going to die, it was just a matter of how.

If the power dynamics were similar, you'd have IDF officers able to walk into the offices of Hamas and PA leaders and issue them orders. They be able to physically assault them without consequence and order their deaths.

And of course the goal was survival, not seizing Germany and declaring it Jewish & imposing Jewish religious law on Germany.

A genuine forever war would be the apt term here. — ssu

Which is why the victory must be complete and Hamas completely replaced.

It was lucky to be done in that one case. Try it repeatedly for the past year.

We'll never know how many innocent civilians died. All the Hamas killed in the al-shifa operation are added to the death count.

Meh... I was hesitant about writing that last line.

Anyway, if the Palestinian territories were actually like a Nazi ghetto then both the PA and Hamas would be unquestionably subordinate to the Israeli government and Israel would be able to replace them as they like.

We have the answer: obliterate the hospital, and everyone in it. Since they’re non-human anyway, it doesn’t matter much. — Mikie

Israel actually sent in special commando troops to al-shifa hospital. I don't believe any civilians were killed during the operation miraculously.

I have nothing against Jews in Israel. — Benkei

I'm not accusing you of that. I'm saying that you (and many others) seem to have something against the notion of a Jewish state. You (and others) simply do not like the idea of a state having a Jewish character so your impression of Israel is reflexively negative before any news gets reported.

Also, to apply your fantastic moral compass to all those Jews killed in ww2: "sorry, they lost!" — Benkei

Land gained during a defensive war is not the same as a policy of systematic murder. Israel is currently conducting polio vaccinations & assisting food distribution in Gaza; not conducting mass shootings or bringing in gas vans.

My impression of Marcion is pretty negative and I'm glad his ideas were declared heretical.

Severing the God of the OT from Jesus seems to me both anti-Jewish and historically/theologically dishonest. It's anti-Jewish for obvious reasons: It makes out the Jews to be worshipping a deficient God. It's historically/theologically dishonest because who was the Jewish Jesus praying to in the gospels? Whose words/commandments is he quoting in the gospels to espouse his theology to his followers? From a Christian perspective, I don't know how Christians are to understand their own spiritual history or understand who Jesus was without the guidance of the God of the OT and his prophets. The idea of the messiah is spoken by the Old Testament God to David on David's deathbed.

Yeah, I guess nothing can be done. Genocides are inevitable. — Mikie

General Mikie, you still haven't answered my question. What to do about the rockets being fired from the hospital?

Some like Geert or Trump will support Israel regardless, others will oppose regardless. Other countries will support or oppose Israel based on alliances. It would be nice to gain broader support, but I wouldn't take that at the cost of severe national security compromises for Israel. I get the sense that no matter what Israel does - short of self-destruction - folks like you wouldn't support it because you just don't like the idea of a Jewish state.

So would you not attack a hospital that an enemy is firing out of? Is the hospital invulnerable then? What do you do? Guess we just can't go to war then. No bombing weapons factories.

There were also Jewish Christians who nonetheless followed Jewish law into the fifth century. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Of which Jerome wrote "Desiring to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other."

Why do you think I'm mad?

I'm not angry.

I maintain that Israel does not intentionally murder civilians. But if Israel insisted on zero civilian deaths ever, Hamas could just fight with babies strapped to them and they could be invincible. Hamas has been seen fighting behind little old ladies with walkers.

In targeting Hamas, civilians may die. Hamas operates from within civilian areas.

Gaza Ministry of Health makes zero distinction between civilians and Hamas. All we have is a number.

It is wrong to intentionally kill civilians.

It is estimated 250,000 German children died in the Second World War. What's your excuse for that? How can you stomach that?

A bullet is a bullet whether it is fired by a 16 year old or a 30 year old.

How many of those are Hamas?

Hamas uses child soldiers.

It remains interesting that aggressors and oppressors keep pretending they're victims. — Benkei

Yes, like the Arabs who started the independence war by attacking Israel immediately after it declared statehood and then cry about nakhba day. Sorry they failed in their annihilation attempt. So sad.

You're not going to find sympathy from me, sorry. The Middle East is a jungle and nations come and go. You're welcome to come to the Middle East and practice all the teachings of Jesus - loving your enemy, turning the other cheek, taking zero steps to secure your own existence (seizing enemy territory used to attack you? unfathomable!) and then you can be the moral one. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Or is it easier to judge from afar where one has no skin in the game and envision how a perfectly moral actor would behave and then consider how Israel falls short of that standard?

And remember to only judge Israel. There is to be no pressure on the Arabs to grant right of return to the millions of expelled Jews. I understand that you think suicide is the moral option for Israel. The weak and dead can do no wrong.