No they didn't, but the DNC should've seen what voters were thinking and not ignored public sentiment like they always seem so eager to do.

You can look up the polls yourself back then which always had a majority of people saying Biden is too old. Biden ran as an incumbent president against other candidates who got very little to no coverage in the media so the result was pretty obvious. Perhaps they should've done some debates.

If opposition to Biden has not managed to coalesce into a united front until now, then it will not. Fear of uncertainty and sheer inertia will keep him in the race. — Echarmion

Like the Republicans with Trump, the Democrats in congress are cowards who would rather stay the course then try and do what they know is the right thing.

Really the party (at the federal level) should just be dissolved at this point. — Echarmion

Hopefully to be replaced by a party that actually gives it's base a voice instead of forcing candidates that they prefer on them, like Hilary in 2016 and Biden in 2020 and 2024. The voters made it very clear that they didn't want Joe to run again due to his age, and they ran him again.

Which reminds me that in 2020, the Dems had an excellent black female VP candidate, Val Demings. But she was a cop, and cops were not in style in the Democratic party of 2020. — fishfry

I mean Kamala was a prosecutor. I don't think either were gonna be popular with the Democrat base in 2020 due to the BLM riots, but Biden decided on Harris.

In fact now that Biden's dug in, some Dems are coming around. House Speaker Hakeem Jeffries is for Joe. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez came out for Joe today. Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer came out for Joe. And surprisingly Senator John Warner, who the other day said he was gathering a group of anti-Joe Senators, today came out for Joe. — fishfry

I'll wait until tomorrow since alot of other congressional Dems are kind of staying silent and clearly are not just falling in line like the president wanted. I'm assuming you meant Mark Warner there, and his statements are also very noncommittal. Nobody except one representative came out today against Biden, and my guess is that the dissenters are currently keeping quiet so they can present a united front when they meet later.

From what I can tell the House Dems are planning a meeting in the morning to discuss the matter privately, while the Senate is also doing the same at noon. Whether they'll decide to confront the president and whether any of that will be made public is anyone's guess.

I believe that once Joe said he's staying in, people realize that he's going to be virtually impossible to dislodge. He has the power of the presidency, which is huge. He has Hunter and Jill on his team. And drug and hooker jokes aside, Hunter appears to be a capable ally at the moment. Joe has all those delegates. And the Democrats risk looking very anti-democratic if they swap in a last-minute candidate chosen by the party insiders. Joe looks stronger today than he did a few days ago when everyone thought he was toast. — fishfry

That's Biden's intended play here, but given that nothing he's done in the past week has assured worried Dems about his reelection prospects, and his complete dismissal of the concerns being thrown his way, I think he's only infuriated and emboldened his critics more. He couldn't convince them that he's not senile so now he's trying to say "don't oppose me or else I'll make it ugly for all of us" to get them to fall in line. Could be a sign he really is hopelessly stubborn or it could be a last ditch attempt at keeping the dam from breaking. Whether the Dems speaking tomorrow will act or not will depend on how they read what he said, but it's clear the president is daring them to oppose him.

And a lot of the backstabbers look unseemly, a point I've been making. You love a guy yesterday and knife him in the back today? That says more about the backstabber than it does about Biden. Looking at you, New York Times, Washington Post, Joe Scarborough, etc. — fishfry

Biden isn't at all a beloved figure. That was why he was thrown under the bus so easily. He's doesn't command a cult like following like Trump so it's easy for them to do so. He was nominated in 2020 purely for his perceived electability and now in an election where he seems to be losing that by being down against a convicted felon the Dems have largely soured on him. I mean they'll still vote for him to stop Trump but they have no support for Biden himself.

I'm on record that the Dems are not going to dislodge him as long as Jill and Hunter want him in. The Dems do not have the stones to impeach him or invoke he 25th amendment. My bet's a long shot, I'll give you that. Joe looks like toast. But what are the Dems really going to do if he refuses to step down? — fishfry

What are they gonna do if he stays in? It seems at this point he's dragging the entire party down for his own selfish goals. At this point they might as well try to make it untenable for him and hope he isn't gonna stubbornly let his own party collapse under his hubris.

Like I noted, prominent Dems are also stepping up to support him. They realize that panicking right now could well come out worse than just getting behind Biden. — fishfry

It's kind of a mixed bag at this point. Alot of them have "concerns" as well. May be a civil war situation but who knows, some of the supporters may believe deep down that Biden isn't the right guy for the job. Reportedly you have folks like Don Beyer saying in private that Biden should resign and let Harris be president while openly supporting him for instance.

Not so. The tide began to turn today (Monday evening US time as I write). Lot of Dems came out for Biden, even some who'd been against him just a day or two ago. — fishfry

Like I said, I'll wait until Tuesday to see if Biden has weathered the storm. The critics have been silent until they meet and gather. Here's a Politico article from Monday evening suggesting that things aren't necessarily over.

Of course Biden is incapable of doing any of that. But we started seeing it in 2019! They hid the guy all during the 2020 campaign. People have been talking about Biden's tragic age-related cognitive impairment for years. Media types have admitted they covered it up so as not to help Trump. — fishfry

Yeah I was one of the people who noticed it back then too (comparing it unfavorably to his 2012 debate performance), but it's way worse now. He could at least debate and do a forceful interview in 2020.

Agreed, of course. But again: Who is going to dislodge him? The parallel's been made with Nixon, when his advisors came to see him and told him it was all over. But he was facing certain impeachment and conviction. What leverage to the Dems have over Biden? A strongly worded letter? They have nothing. Let's see if they'll start impeachment or 25A proceedings. Of course they will not do it. — fishfry

Yeah I understand that ultimately it really is on Biden to step aside unless the Dems are brave enough to take stronger measures. The hope I guess is to make the situation as untenable to Biden as possible because clearly he is out of touch with the reality of the situation, and also hope that the supposed good man in Joe will make him realize how destructive his political ambitions are to a party and country that's lost faith in him. Who knows, maybe he will let the party crumble before he steps aside, but even he should realize that he can't win an election if even his team lacks any confidence in him.

With Trump out there, there’s a very good chance Biden wins. — Mikie

Fear of a second Trump term and Project 2025 is the only thing keeping the Dems alive at this point. Would've been nice if they just ran some generic 50 year old or somebody that didn't massively turn off voters nationwide.

Biden's rolling the dice. If he wins, even by a narrow margin, the GOP will suffer the worst trouncing a political party has ever had in American politics. How could anyone lose to this guy??? The GOP would immediately go into circular firing squad mode. — RogueAI

Then they'll re-nominate the same guy who lost again 4 years later.

Do you mean Whitmer for veep or prez? Kamala has a constituency within the party. — fishfry

Yeah a Harris/Whitmer ticket would be more realistic. That being said Harris will more likely go for Shapiro because he's a white man.

That does seem like an out. I thought the delegates were firmly bound, but evidently not. — fishfry

Yep, and the delegates are not very eager to nominate him right now. We'll see if it snowballs into something.

In fact Joe has stated that he's in it to win it, and he has Jill and now Hunter on his side. And he's President of the United States. There's a lot of power in that. — fishfry

Sure, but everybody adamantly says they're in it until they aren't. I think it's too late for Biden to stop the dam from breaking within his own party. Too many different groups from the donors to the representatives to the senators are already saying he should step aside and likely this week (as congress reconvenes) this will lead to a large number of public statements for Joe to step aside. At some point such a situation becomes untenable.

But who knows how he'll react. Is Joe selfish enough to stay in anyways even if it means the total collapse of his party? Perhaps but it's clear his attempts to quiet any dissent through a mix of stubbornness and finally getting out there have been completely unsuccessful so far. A normal politician would've taken drastic action immediately after that debate, doing numerous interviews, town halls, and unscripted events in order to assure people that they can do this. Biden instead went back to hiding for a week and later did a 20 minute interview where he still sounded rambling and delusional, and well we can sort of guess why. I think the video I linked to where he said he will be content with losing to Trump and ending democracy because all that matters to him is his reelection attempt will turn his critics off more.

Not a good year for Shapiros in the Dem party as long as Michigan's in play. — fishfry

Michigan is in play in large part because Biden is the nominee and pissing off Arabs with what he's doing in Gaza. That's why I think Whitmer is an ideal candidate since she can take any stance on Israel and win Michigan easily but apart from his age, Biden's foreign policy is a big drag on the ticket.

Are Democrats ready to either impeach him or invoke the 25th Amendment? If not, how are you going to dislodge him? — fishfry

I've heard there's also a "good conscience" rule the DNC can add for delegates to not vote for Biden, but right now the Dems are trying to convince grandpa that he is perhaps not the best driver in the world and relinquish his car keys voluntarily. Next week will probably see the dam breaking.

If Harris is the nominee I imagine Shapiro would be a top pick for VP, at least if she were smart.

US democracy's last line of defense everyone:

They have no one to blame but themselves. — Mikie

Really you can blame Jim Clyburn for that. He stepped in to save Biden's campaign in the South Carolina primary because he feared Bernie winning the nomination and then insisted on a black woman diversity pick for Biden's running mate, giving us Harris. He essentially gave us the ticket we see today.

That being said it's probably better for the Dems to go with Harris at this point and have her pick an actually talented running mate. Biden's campaign is about as dead as he is but at least with Harris you can see some potential room for improvement and a restart.

If they happen to pull it off, it’ll be only because Trump is that bad — which he is. — Mikie

Indeed. A generic candidate who is neither Trump nor Biden would win in a landslide against either of these people.

Too bad the Democrats couldn't put up a candidate that isn't as unpopular as Trump. Shouldn't be a low bar to pass but yeah let's just run the 80 year old man who the majority of the country didn't want to run again.

At this point literally everyone in the party wants him out because they think he'll lose them the House and Senate and will probably speak up in the coming days, the donors are revolting, and the media is unanimously calling for Biden to step down on a daily basis. I don't see him coming back from this but who knows, he's incredibly stubborn.

Maybe but I doubt they'd want to force gramps out when he's kicking and screaming. The Dems crave unity above all else so it's unlikely there will be an independent open revolt or attempt to replace Biden unless he says he is okay with it. Of course, that unity is ironically a great reason why the worries about the chaos of a replacement are unfounded IMO. They'll fall in line behind a new guy if they're allowed to. After all if the consesus was that questioning an octogenarian candidate's capability months ago when they had ample opportunity to pivot was considered "helping Trump", then I don't see anyone complaining about a Whitmer candidacy post convention, even Kamala and her dozen or so diehard supporters.

The news media have been floating names. Pretty much a bunch of governor names like Newsom and Whitmer. Also, unfortunately, Kamala Harris.

Doesn't really matter though if Biden doesn't want to step aside. If he does, then things will probably move quickly.

I think you should distinguish the Democrat voters with whoever's running the DNC. The Democrats by and large didn't want Biden to run in 2024 and the DNC as usual didn't listen.

You should probably listen to what the guy has to say first, instead of parroting slogans peddled by political rivals. — Tzeentch

Look at this point I just want somebody who's not insane, not a criminal, and below the expected retirement age. Is that too much to ask?

Bobby Jr! Another long shot idea. — fishfry

The 70 year old anti-vax conspiracy theorist who has dealt with literal brain worms... we really have a great slate of candidates this year.

Both sets of exams can be independently verified by a third party (audit) if Biden's campaigb is serious about getting the maximum effect (no matter how marginal). — 180 Proof

Doesn't really matter in this post-truth world. We live in an age where Trump can shoot someone on fifth avenue, claim he didn't, and alot of his supporters would take his word.

If not, if the "perception" is so irreparable", then he needs to step aside like Lyndon Johnson did in 1968 – of course, VP Harris might also lose (after a brutally divisive convention floor fight) like VP Humphrey lost to Nixon. :brow: — 180 Proof

That's my solution honestly, for Biden to step aside like he should've months ago.

I actually don't think the convention floor fight would be as divisive as some may fear. The Democrats have proven they are capable of unifying very quickly when necessary. That's actually how Biden became the nominee in 2020 after all, where in the span of 3 days they managed to get all the moderate candidates to drop out and endorse Biden before Super Tuesday in a desperate attempt to block Bernie Sanders from the nomination.

I feel like if they are gonna go through with a new convention all the leaders should simply agree beforehand to fall in line behind whoever the candidate is given the urgency of the situation. That's where I suspect any potential divisions could come from. As for the voters themselves... honestly I'd imagine most would just be happy that they don't have to vote for either Trump or Biden.

I think Biden should have complete physical and cognitive exams which witll then be released in document form (minimally redacted only for national security) and summarized by his physicians in a public press conference asap. — 180 Proof

Doesn't matter since the public perception is that Biden is too old to run. If it's a good report his opponents will claim they falsified it and if it's not then they will run with it.

This is of course putting aside the fact that Trump when he was president released an incredibly dubious health report from his physician, who at the time claimed he could "live to be 200 years old". I don't know where that physician is now, but rumor has it that he is serving in the US congress as a Republican.

Regrettably, Trump seemed vigorous and not affected by age in that debate. — Wayfarer

He's also fat and eats a bunch of junk food which goes great with being 78. If he gets a heart attack or chokes on a BIg Mac that wouldn't surprise me.

I'm now rather hoping that he is found medically ineligible to continue in the very near future. — Wayfarer

Same goes for the other guy. I mean both are really old after all.

Well right now the biggest obstacle to them changing leaders is Biden himself. It wasn't that long ago where we got this exchange, which I still look back at every now and then as I wonder why the race is as it is. If he ends up losing and dying the next day, we'll have to deal with the consequences of his stubbornness.

Who is forcing the poor old guy to do this? — Lionino

Mostly Joe himself because he's the only person on the planet insisting he's the "best person to beat Trump".

DNC: Yes the planet got destroyed but for a beautiful moment in time we stood by and did nothing as an 82 year old man selfishly tried to seek a second term against the wishes of his constituents.

Well maybe they can convince him now that's he crashed the car. Or maybe we really are screwed.

The one bit of good news is that this debate was really early (perhaps intentionally) and now that we see that Biden can't do it, there is enough time for a change in leadership. Literally anybody else would be better and likely win given how Trump is intensely disliked.

Well I think Biden is the one who's ultimately making this gamble wanting to spend his final years as a two-term president even if he may not live through it, but the people around him seem content in not putting too much pressure on him either.

People have been trying to convince him for several months but he's too stubborn to get out. The Democrats would easily win if they just ran another generic candidate, but they chose to stick with someone who's arguably just as unpopular as Trump is. I mean maybe this debate would convince him to step aside, that's the one upside I see, but if not then we're really taking a huge gamble on all of our futures for the sake of one really old man's desire for a second term.

Not sure about Markey but Sanders is stubbornly anti-nuclear which is one part of his energy policy I recall disagreeing with back in 2020. Part of me suspects it is because he's an old fashioned environmentalist.

Congress Just Passed The Biggest Clean-Energy Bill Since Biden's Climate Law

Some good news on nuclear power. And the best news is that since it's bipartisan then it should be immune to partisan politics (assuming that Trump doesn't arbitrarily dismantle it like the Iran Nuclear Deal or the oil lobbyists change their tune once they start seeing nuclear power as a legitimate short-term threat to their business).

The power of the US-Israel lobby makes it the United States' problem as well. — Tzeentch

That's like saying that the power of the oil lobby makes the green energy transition a problem for the US. The fact that there are lobby groups pushing an agenda in US politics doesn't make it our problem. That's just corruption.

A deal right now would mean "Hamas won", Netanyahu would be chased out of office and probably jailed. Israel will have to live with its stained reputation for the foreseeable future and it will have nothing to show for it. — Tzeentch

That's more Israel's problem, more specifically Netanyahu's. That being said it's reputation is already largely stained since they can't keep themselves from conducting this war inhumanely. I mean they probably could've learned from the lessons of the US after 9/11 but why be rational?

The US doesn't care about peace. The only thing it cares about is whether unconditional support for Israel blows back on Biden and ruins his chances at re-election. — Tzeentch

I'd say fears about a blowback are the reason why they're so eager for a deal. That and the possibility of this war escalating to a wider conflict as well like when Israel almost dragged everyone into a war with Iran.

It pretends to broker a peace deal in order to placate US progressives, only to subsequently come up with excuses, to placate Israel and the US-Israel lobby. — Tzeentch

Why would the US pretend here? Out of all the parties involved it seems like the US is the only one that seriously wants a deal done, with Israel and Hamas holding up any deal for their own interests. If Hamas didn't propose anything new or problematic in their response and simply said yes then the US would for sure announce it immediately.

I must say, nothing in this thread has impressed me about the assembled philosophers. Is it the Lounge, or just the Trump effect? Logic, reason and reading comprehension are in short supply. — fishfry

It's called politics. You'd be wise to stay away from it.

Don’t try to reason— just enjoy the show. — Mikie

I'd enjoy it if the stakes weren't so high.

Hear the fucking tape. Is it wrong or is it not? I don't care about whatever else you bring up with Biden. It shouldn't be that hard to see a crime as a crime when the facts call for it.

Trump hasn’t committed any crimes, nor could you name where he did. All I get is emojis. — NOS4A2

Here's another "emoji" for you: Trump heard on tape discussing 'highly confidential, secret' documents

Modern politics is a giant clown car any way. — Tzeentch

Agreed which is why it's hard for me to take people's concerns about how unprecedented this latest ruling is seriously. I agree with some that this is certainly the weakest case that Trump had to face, but the stronger and more serious cases (like the documents and election interference cases) were intentionally delayed by Trump and his hand-picked judges to happen after the election, which may not happen at all if he wins and pardons himself before hand. In a day and age where people are casually talking about that this grand plan to avoid legal consequences as if it's a totally cool and normal thing for one to do, then concerns about breaking precedent doesn't seem to ring as strongly as it used to 10 years ago. It seems like precedent is being broken every single week as Trump tests our system of checks and balances in a way nobody else has.

Honestly it seems like that precedent was crossed long ago when the Republicans did their witch hunt of Bill Clinton for an affair back in the 90s. I've no doubt they'll try something like this again if they get into power (Trump especially).

Of course there's always the risk of going too far in trying to prosecute someone that it backfires politically on the other side, which is probably the only safeguard we have left in today's hyperpolarized society. The impeachment of Clinton blew up in the Republican's faces 25 years ago and this conviction of Trump may blow up in the Democrat's faces too though personally I doubt it. Most polling seems to suggest that the public sees Trump as an obvious criminal and they seem to support the conviction on that basis. So much as people see Trump as a victim it seems to be largely coming from Trump's core base of support. Whatever bump Trump could have gotten from them has already manifested when he was indicted in the first place, which allowed him to win the primary. The general election is another matter entirely.

Feeling's mutual.

I'm amazed at your ability to make 5 different completely insane statements in less than 20 words.