:gasp: I agree.

What video are you watching that has a cop in it? I saw a video of a cop choking a man with his knee. Do you mean you believe there was intent? And then there's the alleged citizen's arrest gone wrong in the case of Arbery but involving a former cop.

I'm just wondering because potentially this might be the first time we agree on something.

Yeah, because I was being totally serious. The fact you reacted seriously to it says a lot. :rofl:

A bullet?

I guess that was that for the Democratic protests in HK that garnered exactly no meaningful support from any Western government. Fuck the CCP and fuck the EU for being the pussies we all know they are.

racist nationalism — fdrake

You're behind the curve. It's the "protection of cultural values and norms" and therefore not racist. Or so they state it nowadays to avoid legal trouble.

You can now add that his advice to take chloroquine has caused more deaths as well : Lancet study

when compared with mortality in the control group (9·3%), hydroxychloroquine (18·0%; hazard ratio 1·335, 95% CI 1·223–1·457), hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (23·8%; 1·447, 1·368–1·531), chloroquine (16·4%; 1·365, 1·218–1·531), and chloroquine with a macrolide (22·2%; 1·368, 1·273–1·469) were each independently associated with an increased risk of in-hospital mortality.

Hmmmm... Lots of stuff my fellow Dutchmen aren't ready for yet. Land tax, death tax, higher corporate taxes, mandatory transfer of shares to employees over time to position our society to be resilient when robots and AI really take over most jobs, more on the environment, crushing the tax evasion schemes made available through the Netherlands, socialising critical infrastructure (cable networks, pipelines, electricity, trains, roads). I could go on...

For now I'm focusing on circular economies. We prove it works, the rest will follow and the planet is saved.

It was kind of hard. The cultural background of having a pluralistic political system makes it hard to get around voting for someone you think is total shit just so someone worse doesn't get into office. A few posts before I mentioned I never voted against someone. I have taken voting more seriously in years populism was rising but I still voted for what I wanted and not strategically.

Oh BTW, I would like to move to the Netherlands. How’s the immigration/refugee policy there for unskilled Americans who like to play loud heavy metal, and think masks are for the weak? — 0 thru 9

You're not obliged to wear a mask except in public transport and nobody cares about your hobbies. :yum:

Unskilled American? How about your English language skill? It's not in short supply here but tutoring could be a low entry job for most native speakers.

More ranting. It seems some people did get the question so it's clearly you being obstinate. Enjoy that. Alone.

It's quite easy to start a new political party and influence Dutch politics. It happens almost every election. Some parties last, others don't. In general we see other parties adapt to, what usually start as, one issue parties. Last time I voted for the party pushing doughnut economy.

Again, that is in no way, shape or form a sensible reaction to my original question and a silly proposition so removed from reality it's totally useless to entertain. If I could dictate everybody would be rich I'm sure I'd get a 99% approval rating.

Your whole post has rather little to do with my question does it? Or are you one of those never - Trumpers and that's the depth of your political positions? As far as I'm concerned never-Trumpets deserve Trump as much as the people actually voting for him.

And I don't know what I've said that makes you attribute a children's concept of politics to me where politicians do what I say. Bit of a strawman right there. I get you're old and you think I'm young but give me a break.

It's not about politicians doing what I want, it's about having decent representation on my behalf by those who I'd vote for. So that means a system with meaningful choices and not

Option a:
laissez-faire capitalism, minimum government, corporate interest and

Option b:
corporate capitalism, technocratic "let's not get any shit done because the status quo needs to be protected", corporate interest

as the only two available turd sandwiches.

I'm not looking forward to Trump or being told "crisis averted" when the crisis is staring me in the eye. — neonspectraltoast

This is true.



So, I think in the meantime I agree with it being better to vote for Biden next fall, but...

What then? I'm afraid that for too many Americans "not Trump" is the goal and once they have that everything is back to the corporate stranglehold on politics. What's the game plan in the long run? Aside from the obvious and just moving en masse to the Netherlands.

Aha. I guess that's where the disconnect is for me from a cultural background. I've never voted against anybody or anything in my life. With, on average, 15 political parties in parliament and coalition governments of at least 2 up to 6 parties, with an average of 4 since WWII, there's always a choice.

And voting third party isn't a waste either. We have a Partij voor de Dieren (Party for Animals) and when they started it was a single issue party. Once they got a seat, all of a sudden every mainstream party had something to say about animal rights. That single issue party evolved (green deals, circular economy etc.) and is still around.

Voting against someone just seems like such a fucking waste...

I think I got confused because of the agreement with Frank Apisa's posts. The above seems to suggest you'd vote for Biden is Georgia had a chance of turning democrat. So what's your reasoning for that? Is it verbatim what Frank said?

Solidarity is a socialist concept. Definitely an issue now but so is Southern Europe's repeated flaunting of various rules. The Dutch would be happy to help the Italians if they agree to adhere to other agreements already made in the past. Without those assurances I'm afraid the solidarity will not be there.

The one definition of Europe -- God's Continent as Phillip Jenkins called it -- has been treated with scorn by the people on this site. — Phil Devine

Of course, because it's regressive. Reducing EU cultural identity to Christianity is simplistic. Why not Greek philosophy, Enlightenment and humanism?

Say no to "memento mori".

So what's your reason to vote Biden over Trump and not abstain or vote third party?

From all your arguments to vote for Biden I personally only find the issues surrounding appointments of judges on the SCOTUS as relevant.

I don't believe there will be a meaningful difference between Biden and Trump in environmental issues.

With a bit of luck he now thinks he's safe and he actually gets it.

Well when Scotland leaves, at least I won't be stuck, I will be rejoining the EU. — Punshhh

How likely is that in the meantime? I haven't been paying much attention to that for awhile now.

2. One male and one female and about 18 years of waiting.

Looking forward to Pence that much? :razz:

Yawn. The EU wasn't started to give people a feeling of being European but to avoid wars. And Christianity certainly didn't provide an understanding of what it was to be European, pace every fucking war fought since 0 AD.

Talking about a shared European identity is as misplaced as talking about an Asian one. It's not interesting because it's a stupid idea currently gaining traction because it's easier to then go on and say, "oi, no Muslims wanted here because they're not like us".

Meanwhile, we have enjoyed the longest period of peace since written history thanks to the EU. It's the most successful peace initiative the world had known. Unsound my ass.

what needs replacing? I function spectacularly well without religion as do 60% of Dutch people. There will always be people that believe in fairy tales. Not a good reason to start to take them seriously.

Europe's shared Christian heritage -- the Eurosecularists scornfully reject. — Phil Devine

Yeah, maybe because we were done with the Christian lies and bullshit somewhere around the Enlightenment.

I also wasn't aware George Papadopoulos was Russian. It was his bragging to Alexander Downer together with the DNC hack that led to the FBI starting the investigation into Trump's team. Russian sourced indeed.

The article says that it is young black men. Race is only a third of the description. — Harry Hindu

This is to me a reworking of the discussion on positive and negative liberty. What good is the absence of interference (negative liberty, eg. minimal statists) if you have no choices to begin with?

The nasty one probably. I forget which one that is.

I don't really think you believe this. — Xtrix

I do. I'm not into these utilitarian calculi where the lesser evil vote results in me thinking I did the morally upright thing. Utilitarianism isn't my cup of tea. If you don't have agency and your fellow voters don't either, then you don't have a position to morally judge them. It's those that pursue the status quo that ought to be judged, those that pull the levers in the DNC, that have the connections to steer the media narrative, the Sanders campaign team for having learned fuck all from 2016. Blame them.

Compare them on healthcare. Compare them on climate change. Etc. — Xtrix

I have. Matters of degrees. Obama did fuck all for the environment, Trump is worse but the endgame is the same. Biden wants to have a committee, which is just another word for "doing nothing". What major overhaul has Trump affected for healthcare? Trump wants to build a wall? Who expulsed the most immigrants? Obama.

EDIT: I get utilitarianism works for a lot of people in many instances and it's fine as a moral compass in most situations - it's just that, as this thread shows, some people have different moral intuitions.

They don't see the full implications of another Trump term, or don't see Biden as any different. — Xtrix

It's not about Trump or Biden though, it's Republican and Democratic. I guess it takes a view from outside the USA to realise how marginal those differences are.

None indeed. Confronted with two choices that are not materially different because the system is rigged in such a way you'll never be offered a meaningful choice means you don't have actual agency. Voting for Trump, Biden or abstaining are all equally amoral because it's no longer a moral choice - the choice had already been made for you.

Our country will be a much better country with him at the helm. — Frank Apisa

Slightly less bad maybe. It seems you've lost all sense of decency and social justice. I suppose if you live in a sewer you'll eventually stop smelling shit.

Are you asking me to entertain whether racists are decent people?

So if the article had stated "black person" it would be a racist thing? Or if he was described as a black, fat, stuttering, shy, ugly, young man, we are to investigate whether there is a possibility they just didn't like shy people?

Funny guy!

- exempting student loans from bankruptcy. (Lenders run no risk on those loans! Lucrative shit!)
- opposed to Medicare for all despite a pandemic raging
- Mandatory minimum sentencing. When he declared "It doesn’t matter whether or not [accused criminals are] the victims of society. I don’t want to ask, ‘What made them do this?' They must be taken off the street." Well, fuck you too Joe.
- Biden "let's segregate students" https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/joe-biden-didn-t-just-compromise-segregationists-he-fought-their-n1021626
- He voted for every possible war: Iraq and Afghanistan, intervening in Kosovo
- an uncritical self-proclaimed zionist

I'm judging based on his statements and voting history not the latest scandal of which the facts aren't available.

Summary: "not Trump" therefore decent. As I said, very low expectations.

I get that you're at the point where voting for the lesser evil feels like a morally outstanding act (I disagree but we don't need to repeat that dance ad nauseum). But you're still voting for a sleazebag so let's not call Biden decent, shall we?

but he is a fine choice.

He is a decent man who has been pragmatic throughout his career. — Frank Apisa

You've got rather low expectations.