:chin: Can birds read each other's minds and communicate with the dead and spirit world? Around the world and throughout history birds represent many things and they are also messengers from God. Let's see if they spell the power of the word. Spell a sound with supernatural power. The spoken word and creation. How far in this direction do we want to go?

The following is a link.... https://worldbirds.com/bird-symbolism/
Bird Native American Symbolism
Native American mythology and folklore speak profoundly of different kinds and species of birds serving as a connection between the human world and the spirit one. The divinities charge these winged creatures with duties like delivering messages from the Creator to us. Although the messages and the methods of delivering these messages are neutral; however, the nature of the message casts birds in different roles. This explains how some bird meanings in Native American folklore vary from villainy and jealous competitors to heroes and wise advisors.


Different Native American tribes also designate birds as their clan animal. While some clans decide to relate themselves to a specific type of bird, like the raven clan or the eagle clan, others choose to follow a more generalized approach. These clans include the following:

The Fusualgi clan or fuswvlke bird clan also known as the bird clan of the creek
The anijisqua bird clan or antisiskwa clan also known as the bird clan of the Cherokees
The feather clan of the Mi’kmaq tribe
In addition to the tribes solely dedicating themselves to these creatures as their clan animal, we can also see various bird spirit animal and bird totem crests in most northwest coast tribes. To this day, the bird totem poles proudly display artistically, creatively, and culturally significant carvings of birds like eagles, thunderbirds, and ravens, among many others.


The descendants of many Native American tribes and clan members also recall enchanting tales, legends, and stories about different species of birds. Almost all tales end with a moral conclusion to teach the value of life to their young members.

Bird Christianity Symbolism
Tribal recognition of bird symbolism is the living embodiment of what many religious scripts and leaders tell us. In other words, birds are so much more than hollow bones and feathers; they are living representations and symbols of hope and strength. Even throughout the bible, the significance of these creatures is incredibly dominating. They appear again and again, from the start till the end, sometimes as nothing but an exemplary reference while other times they play a vital role in the formation of history.

The question comes down to, what do birds symbolize in the bible?

Birds symbolize mercy, hope, and divine intervention, among other things. It is a bird that carries the Israelites to safety on her wings. It is also a bird that brings back the olive branch to Noah, signifying the end of the legendary flood. A bird also accompanied Jesus on his first temple visit. They bring bread to the prophets when they are hungry, hope when they feel defeated or alone, and relief when they feel anxious.

irds being engineered by evolution sounds remarkably teleological. Were feathers engineered by evolution for flight, or did animals having feathers discover they could fly. As Aristotle said: “…Natural things either invariably or normally come about in a given way; but of not one of the results of spontaneity or chance is this true …it follows that they must be for an end…” — RussellA

Too bad the Hebrews and then the Christians gave us a different understanding of creation and the Christians went on to kill and exterminate the pagans and heathens and destroyed the pagan temples which were places of learning, throwing us into the dark ages. But then Zeus did fear that mankind would learn all the technologies and turn their backs on the gods. For this reason, he gave Pandora a box full of mercies to slow man's progress and delay the inevitable. Christianity sure did slow our progress and I am not sure we would have recovered if old documents did not lead to the renascence and the church had not used Plato and Aristotle to justify its power and authority.

No other animal creates its reality around such notions, nor kills its own species with the notion they are doing the will of God. Bird sounds and language are not the same thing.

If we suppose a human individual sustains damage to the brain's logical component, might we suppose such person could still make grammatical utterances? However, speaking this way would now be powered by rote memory without comprehension in the manner of a parrot? — ucarr

Perfect! And that reminds me of DANIEL KAHNEMAN's explanation of fast and slow thinking. Actually thinking requires huge amounts of energy and most of the time we are running on automatic to conserve energy. That is running on memory and reacting, not in-the-moment intentional thinking. And even if we are trying to intentionally think through something, we are not very good at it unless we have learned the higher-order thinking skills. Add to that, without life experience our understanding of life is not enough for a good understanding of most things. That is why children must learn to diagram sentences and the rest of the rules of grammar and math, If you are interested there are videos and books explaining all these things and why we are prone to making bad decisions, even if we know the skills and have life experience.

Campaign ads and commercials come from years of research and experience in how to hook our attention and influence our thoughts and sense of desire.

If we suppose the opposite, namely, that a human individual sustains damage to the brain's language component, might we suppose such person could still think logically and thus form grammatical utterances in the mind's ear? However, thinking in this way would now be lopped off from the ability to voice aloud these utterances, thus requiring the person to write their communications? — ucarr

Now you are too focused on language. Every second of the day our brains with flooded with information from all sense receptors and memories, many memories that are also associated with feelings.
As you said grammar is about connections so is logical thinking. The cortex orchestrates these connections, and in the left and right brain battle for dominance, the cortex suppresses this thought or that one, so rational will dominate over desires and urges. I think at times we have all thought "I would like to beat him to a bloody pulp" but immediately that thought is followed by a stern warning that that is not acceptable behavior and will have bad consequences. :rofl: The baboon does not have the intelligence of a chimp because it has poor memory and acts on impulses like the Three Stooges.

The baboon does not have the self-control chimps have. Neither does a person with right frontal brain damage have the self-control of a normal person. PTS and a bad childhood can also exaggerate reptilian responses to life, meaning the right brain and emotions are dominant, not the left brain and logic. For this reason, and because learning the rules of grammar and math strengthen the left brain functions and can make it dominant, SCHOOLS MUST FOCUS ON THE CHILDREN LEARNING GRAMMER AND MATH, AND STOP PASS THEM TO HIGHER GRADES UNTIL THEY DROP OUT OF SCHOOL , LABELED WITH BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS AND UNWORTHY OF THE TEACHER'S TIME.

If we're looking at a permanent triad of interlinked co-functions, then it feels reasonable to conclude language permeates the entire animal kingdom. — ucarr

I have zero understanding of why you say that. Language has nothing to do with the animal world. They do not think of God and go about life as though a god will take care of them and help them win wars. Neither do they have romantic notions of love and live as though love will resolve all problems in a relationship if only s/he would be the perfect lover. With language, we imagine what should be and then take action to make things as they should be. Animals don't do this. They do not live by language as humans do.

Can you provide a definition of "hyohamous"? — ucarr

There is no such word. I was making a point about the importance of words to our thinking. When we do not have a word for our thought we can't think that thought, we can not communicate that thought to ourselves or others. Or if we have a word but not a definition which is also words, we have no understanding of the word. The point is animals are capable of human logic because they do not have the necessary words. We can not discuss quantum physics without the vocabulary.

Animals do not have the brain structure nor the vocal structure for language and surely not for logic. But they have what comes before our large cortex and ability to speak a language. The human difference has evolved but perhaps today more and more humans are being pushed out of mainstream society because they do not have the IQ's for advanced education and high-tech jobs? I am also concerned that education for technology is not adequate for all humans because we must learn how to be good citizens and we can not rely on religion for moral training because religions are not compatible with science and logical thinking.

Let me try this again. Reacting to the environment is not logical thinking. What we need here is a better understanding of what logic is and what makes the human brain different from a reptilian brain or a baboon's brain.

The logical side of the left hemisphere includes:

Logic;
Facts;
Details;
Patterns;
Strategies;
Words;
Language;
Order;
Perception;
Past & Present;
Practicality;
Safety;
Comprehension;
Logical Thinking Is Not an Inborn Talent, But Something You Can Learn and Practice
Enhancing logical reasoning is simply learning to pay a closer attention to details. Therefore, there are a few easy techniques to help you overcome thinking obstacles and really focus.

Stop Viewing Things from Your Own Perspective Only
To advance logical thinking process, it is crucial to differentiate established facts from personal observations.Concentrating on the environment and your senses is just individual perception, which mustn’t be confused with logic. — Vladimir Zivanovic

.

However, if that is not the case, I cannot understand the mechanism that originated human language, etc totally independently from any pre-existing non-human animal ability. — RussellA

Let us look at different animal brains. The following link has pictures and explanations.

Moreover, the size of the cerebral cortex is also a difference between humans' and animals' brain. Humans' brain has a disproportionately large cerebral cortex, accounting for more than 80% of the total brain mass, while the cerebral cortex of the animals' brain is comparatively small.May 7, 2019

What is the Difference Between Humans and Animals Brain — Lakna

We must understand humans do not think alike, most of our thinking is learned and few humans have developed logic skills. That is why this thread is so important! We can not understand what democracy is without learning the principles and reasoning of democracy, any more than a person could be a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist without learning and being indoctrinated.

All social animals also do a lot of learning and have the ability to transmit information, so it is not just one chimp who washes the sand off the food but the whole troop will learn to do so. We can see the logic of doing that, but imitating others is not a function of logic. To repeat the first link..
.Concentrating on the environment and your senses is just individual perception, which mustn’t be confused with logic.

The Egyptians were experts at measuring and math, however, they were not exactly logical. We make a big deal out of the Greeks because they took math further to proving what a triangle is and this moved them from superstition to science. Greek thinking was unique. They brought us to rule by reason rather than a god authority over the people. However, I can not think of math without also thinking of India and the zero. Interestingly India's math stayed superstitious believing such knowledge was given by a god, instead of holding a secular understanding of proves and logic. Believing a god gives us language or math and made humans from mud is not exactly logical thinking.

Are you suggesting, with the above, that negative effect on reasoning can sometimes occur without negative effect on language? — ucarr

Several areas of the brain are involved with the ability to use language. However, right frontal lobe brain damage really messes up a person's ability to reason, and I don't think this necessarily means a loss of language. It is more along the line of connections between different parts of the brain and it is the frontal cortex that separates us from animals. Animals can make sounds that communicate alarm, a call for a mother, sexual attraction, excite calling everyone to come and eat. That is not conceptual thinking nor equal to human reasoning which is a matter of making associations, what happens in the cortex. This is what makes your statement "Grammar introduces all speakers to logic." so true.

Frontal Lobe Syndrome - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelfhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › books › NBK532981
by L Pirau · 2021 · Cited by 21 — Frontal lobe syndrome is a broad term used to describe the damage of higher functioning processes of the brain such as motivation, planning, ...
‎History And Physical · ‎Differential Diagnosis · ‎Enhancing Healthcare Team... — Letitia Pirau

The importance of a healthy brain able to connect signals from different areas compliments what you said about the importance of the connections made with grammar and knowing how a word fits into a sentence.

IE, pre-language, the crow has the necessary concepts required for language. — RussellA

Hypotheticals — RussellA

Reacting to our environment is not equal to logical thinking. Reacting to a warning cry is not equal to thinking, as we can observe in dogs that bark at every sound regardless of how much it is punished for this behavior. Some dogs do not distinguish between a thief and a mailperson. They are not thinking, only reacting.

Perhaps some experiments will help in understanding thinking. If you have some time try thinking about hyohamous and tell me the meaning and value of it. Do you understand hyohamous as well as you understand Hypotheticals, or is your ability to under one and the other different? Now grab an electric wire and ten minutes later grab the wire again. Was the experience the same both times? What changed? An alligator will endure an electric shock once its teeth get hold of meat but if it does not have the taste of meat, it will pull away from the shock. It can take several shocks before the alligator stops its attempts to get the meat. What concepts does the alligator understand?

We're told humans have dominion over animals. Maybe pets receive God's presence through humans? When a pet takes instruction from human to do a good deed, or when a pet, on its own initiative, does a good deed, such as save an endangered human, is that not a pet_God connection? — ucarr

That depends on one's definition of God. I really hope this thread stays focused on scientific facts and logic. The only thing that clearly separates humans from other mammals and social animals is the ability to come up with a concept such as the concept of gods, and behave as though this intangible reality is a tangible reality. No other animal would do that.

So now, if you be cognitive individual, you practice motion + intent. Speaking in the vernacular, we call this finding food, shelter & fire. Following closely upon the tail of the basic three come the secondary three: finding love, family & community. The lotus in the garden of the magic seven is, finally, finding cosmos, which means, colloquially, practicing unselfish love for others. — ucarr

Yes, all animals including humans are preprogrammed for those things, however, there are some differences between reptiles and mammals. Mammals have more parenting instincts than reptiles and among the mammals, some are better programmed for social behavior than others. Bonobos are more like humans than chimps and chimps have a better memory than baboons, leading to chimps having better social instincts than baboons.

Being a human with cognitive abilities does not necessarily mean thinking conceptionally and only that ability separates humans from the rest of the animals. I work with cognitively challenged people so I am seeing language is not enough for conceptual thinking and you begin with an argument about reasoning. Our ability to reason is very low when we are children and improves with age. However, brain damage can also prevent us from having the ability to reason, so reasoning is more than having language. If we can not grasp complex concepts, we can not reason well. This is certainly true for those with right frontal brain damage and those suffering from dementia.

IE, human language is not of a different kind to animal communication, but rather, human language has built on what already pre-existed. — RussellA

Sure everything about being human is built on what already existed. But not all humans can reason, as I explained. Being able to reason through complex concepts is unique to humans, and there are humans who function at the level of animals, incapable of reasoning.

Grammar introduces all speakers to logic. This is my central claim. — ucarr

Yes, Grammar introduces logic. And if people do not learn grammar they do not learn good logic. Math is also an important path to logical thinking. Children should learn the rules of grammar and math if we want them to grow up with the skills for logic. Teaching grammar and logic to the masses was not possible before the twentieth century. Since mass education, humans have been on a different path than the religiously controlled path they were on, because now they hold many different concepts as true and important.

I consider your OP to be one of the most important subjects for us to discuss. Nothing is more important than education and education for technology is not giving us the education we need to be civil and logical human beings.

It seems that the crow is using cognition. If the crow has no language, then it is using cognition outside of language. — RussellA

The crow will never explain the universe nor construct a society dependent on technology. Animals can not know logos because they do not have the complex language as humans have complex languages that can express reasoning. Animals can communicate but that is not the same as conceptualizing and reasoning which are dependent on language. Now if they can teach each other sign language or evolve to have language such as humans have, then they be able to conceptualize as humans do. That ability is dependent on language, and our ancestors may not have had language.

Our problem here is language. Does logic mean the ability to respond correctly to stimulus or does in it me the ability to conceptualize and communicate concepts to others?

Animals do not have gods and neither did early man because a god is a concept, and is not manifested in nature. We need terminology that distinguishes the difference between figuring out how to get food or evade a predator, and figuring out how to create and use technology. Language is essential to the conceptual reality we have created for ourselves.

Not all languages can lead to manifesting the technology we have, but suspect they can all manifest a concept of god. Sumerians could never have the technology we have today because they did not have the necessary concepts and words for classifying trees are different from bushes and something living is different from being inanimate.

By adding to the solutions, by reducing the problems, sticking your finger in the hole in the sea wall, if you can help stop the flood or help clean up afterwards.
By each of us feeling/taking the responsibility and having the empathy to do what you can when you can, just like you exemplify every day.
Out of little acorns, big Oak tree's grow. The only help I think the folks on TPF can offer you is textual/human support unless they stay near you. Perhaps even some financial support, if you can get involved in some kind of crowdfunding/fund raising efforts which would directly support the local help initiatives you are trying to participate in.
I was watching a show about Chile recently and a woman was trying to feed 70 local kids every day using mostly her own limited pay she gets as a nurse and some local charity she was getting a little help and money from. Again, the likes of she, you and the schoolgirls in Iran are what helps convince me that there is great hope for the future of the human race. — universeness

I immediately flashed back to a time when I felt like an infected boil on the face of the earth. To clarify what I said, I don't think I could have felt any lower. I had no self-esteem and no sense of power and I unintentionally hurt a young woman who felt just as low as I did. When I learned I had hurt her I was shocked, because I didn't think I had the power to do that.

At another time also during the 1970 recession. I had begun hoarding and was not eating or heating my home. I lost so much weight, I had to cheat the scales when I sold plasma by wearing very heavy clothing. My daughter questioned my behavior and it shocked me. I slumped to the floor in front of the cold wood stove and realized I had forgotten how to think middle class. I was afraid if I used what we had there would be no more, like the crazy people we heard of from the Great Depression.

I think my point is, I was not always as self-confident as I am today. The girls in Iran are caught up in the history of their time, as I was when I thought I was a hippie, but during the recession when people were losing their homes and businesses, we were not united in an effort to improve things. We were alone as we slowly sank to the bottom.

Shit, I don't know what I am trying to say but you have made me think.

Wow, I love you guys and the thinking you make me do. :heart:

Why should we create people that must be united in the first place. What right do we have to create new people? Legitimate question. Go back to the root. First principles. Why we make others work, go through the treadmill of life. What right we have to make others do this. All people have in this forum as a response to these questions is snark and sarcasm..the refuge of those without a rational response. — schopenhauer1

One of my favorite professors was a sociologist and he gave us a textbook explaining we live by social agreements. Instinctively we desire to be accepted and it is nice if we are also valued. We can neither if we do not understand the social rules and comply with them. We sure can not have liberty without a willingness to know and follow social rules. Even chimpanzees require following social rules. Social animals depend on each other and they have social rules. If a chimp refuses to obey the rules, the chimp is pushed to the outer circle where it is more likely to be eaten by a predatory, or the misbehaving chimp may be driven away and forced to seek a new group it if survives long enough to do that.

Tribes share a mythology and Joseph Campbell said the purpose of a mythology is to prepare the young to be adult members of the tribe. This is vital to our mental health and it is devastating when we invade an aboriginal territory and destroy their way of life.

Please question what I have said and I will try again to give you a rational response.

The problems started as a residue from our time in the wilds. The process and means by which the first nefarious few were allowed to become an established malignant infestation, is simply the story of how the first nefarious King/Queen/Messiah/chief/community leader came to be, and allowing such to become established and prosper, was the greatest mistake in human history. — universeness

I blame patriarchy for the division of those who have power and those who do not. It is my understanding matriarchies have a family order but not the hierarchy of power and authority that men seem to prefer. I have often been surprised by the male concern of ownership. A few things are special to me but when I live with others almost everything is ours.

You mention a residue from our time in the wilds. I assume you accept evolution. How about male and female differences? I think we all agree other animals are ruled by their hormones. How about people? Do you think they are also ruled by their hormones?

The establishment of nefarious group leaders is a bit of a fascination to me. Greeks did not conquer the world as the Romans did. We seem to think the Romans were superior, but really? Intellectually at least Athens was superior. I have read the Greeks and those living in Celtic territory got along just fine, but the Romans enslaved everyone.

Certain philosophers from Socrates to Nietzsche explained the gross deficienies of democracy, while the more collectivist philosophers like Hegel and Marx portrayed it as the salvation of mankind. — Merkwurdichliebe

Yes and let us have a symposium to talk about these different philosophies! Hum, this forum has repeatedly made me want to go to the coast and invite the public to discuss philosophy. In the inland city, people are too busy for symposiums but in the coastal city, life is slower and there are many retired people. This time, I am seeing perhaps a more viable to do a symposium. There is a community center at the coastal city nearest to me. I have time to visit there before the snow storms come and crossing the mountains is a bad idea.

I love your grouping of the two sides to the issue.

Man, when I was young and full of energy, I was also ignorant and bored out of my mind. Now my head is so full and I can get the meaning of what the people here are saying, and I am so excited about what is possible, but I don't have the courage nor the energy to act on what is possible. :sad:

It is important to think about how the various people, especially those who have 'cognitive' problems are affected by changes which are occurring. At times, when I struggle with online communication and forms I begin to doubt my own cognitive abilities, so what must it be like for people who are really unable to read and write. Some have support and some don't.

Whether it is due to cognitive or other difficulties, it may be that an underclass is developing, of people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream. It is probably not an entirely new development but as life gets more digitalised and 'faster' there may be greater exclusion of those who find it hard to compete in the fight for resources. In the case of the most downtrodden, they may be less able to argue for their rights and be cast outside of agendas for arguing for their rights, and be a silent minority on the periphery or edge of society. — Jack Cummins

And those who do have support are nicely dressed and well-mannered and can do simple jobs. Oh dear, I am feeling emotional about this as I struggle with my present circumstance of trying a help a man with brain damage. It is obvious he comes from a good family and does not identify with the common street person who is unlikely to have a supportive family. With his sister and cousin who live far away, we trying to provide a support system but here I am again needing to talk to people in person and no one is in the office. Our systems are running against giving these people the support they need.

Yes, you are on to something, because those who have cognitive and emotional problems are "people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream". Most likely they never had a supportive family and know only poverty, do not how to think middle class. I worked for an organization that educates and trains cognitively challenged people and also the homeless in general and there is a huge difference between those who had supportive families and those who did not. Those who had supportive families have all the benefits society can give these people. They usually have government support in the form of monthly checks. They are often put in foster homes for adults. They get all the training and social actives that help them fit into society. This is a point I really need to make when I address the Oregon legislature. Thank you for how you worded the problem, the words I bolded.

I have said this before, your thinking is so valuable to the whole of society, and I hope you find your niche. Perhaps working for a politician who wants to solve the problems. You have the insight and wording they need to understand the problem. You are a bridge between those who have only a mainstream awareness and those who don't.

I am a socialist, a humanist, and I damn the nefarious rich and powerful to destruction.
I want economic parity for all humans, from cradle to grave. — universeness

I do not agree with hating the rich because that is like hating someone because of their color. However, I think we all could be improved with knowledge of how to play the economic power game. How does it work? I wonder if we do not teach high school youths about economics because those in control really do not want the masses to know. Or maybe it is because most high school students are nowhere near ready to comprehend economics and struggle just to have some awareness of personal finances. Or maybe no knows enough to make economics a part of the high school curriculum?

Some high schools gave students a little knowledge of how to start a business and we have volunteers that provide information to people wanting to start a business such as the Small Business Bureau and Junior Chamber of Commerce.

The rich have provided jobs and built the economy of cities and I am very glad we have these people. Maybe the whole game is not fair but we are darn lucky to have people who do start industries and run them.

In 1917 teachers were proud to teach democracy and about uniting to get things done. That would be fraternities, granges, and unions. For me, everything comes back to education. How should we prepare our young for citizenship?

It's not easy, that's all! I dunno how we can show the fly the way out of the bottle. Maybe that's precisely what we shouldn't be do, oui mon chéri? — Agent Smith

That means liberty, doesn't it? But I am watching a show about a man who works with the homeless and it is so discouraging because the homeless in this show have lost all hope and trust in others. However, he rescues them and sends them home to family. My sister has done that too. I got a man I helping in touch with his family.

I think we are putting our faith in technology instead of family and that leaves people dependent on the state and that is not working as these people get so lost and become like feral cats. So liberty can lead to bad things. I am struggling with these thoughts. Can you help me? How can we bring out the best in people and reduce social problems?

↪Athena All models are wrong to the extent that every rule has exceptions. — Agent Smith

Okay, go on. You are being very tantalizing.

Years ago I became aware of a bureaucratic effort to get staff to do more independent thinking and problem-solving after a long period of control from the top, making workers afraid of doing independent thinking. This is a home issue.

What is the best way to Utopia? Liberty and power of the individual or autocratic direction from the top?
Industry, Christianity, and the military are autocratic. What is left to manifest liberty and power of the individual?

We used to laugh at Russia for its failures resulting from too much red tape and now, in the US, nothing can be done without the red tape. We have achieved this power of government and everything is breaking down.

So are the poor sods they are supposed to be helping! Perhaps they are not overwhelmed with heavy workloads but overwhelmed by their unfair circumstances. I absolutely agree, that there are many good people working in the social care system but there are many f***wits as well! There is no question that they are over worked, under paid and way under-resourced and the real culprits are the politicians in power. The pressure must come from the people who must move 'en masse' to pressure those in power and demand significant improvement to the social care system, on threat of removal from power. — universeness

Like I just said to Jack Cummins, how did things get so bad! I swear before the pandemic, I could call my Senior and Disability Services case worker and she answered her phone and in 5 minutes the problem would be resolved. Now no one answers the phone and calls are not returned in a timely manner. When I studied public policy and administration at the U of O it was said when someone is having a problem keeping up with the demands of a job, hire another person. Now the focus has shifted from getting the job done to cutting costs.

We were lucky and got a great doctor who has a great social worker and she is aware of the phone problem and will use her position of being inside the system to get the Senior and Disability Services to do what should have been done two weeks ago. In the meantime we are taking steps to add the gentleman to my renter's contract and the division of housing assistance has okayed him staying in my home so I am no longer in danger of losing my own housing, However, this may be turning into more of a commitment than I wanted to make. I thought this was going to be a temporary situation. My apartment is too small for me and it sure is not enough space for two people over a long period of time.

What can I say but this has been a learning experience and EVERYONE is helping me think through what I will say to the state legislature when there will be a public hearing after the beginning of the next year. The only thing I feel sure about is these people should not be left on the streets to fend for themselves!!! We must not allow the neglect of our children and challenged people and the elderly. Yes, we have many services and assistance programs but they are overwhelmed and the needs are not being met. On the good side, I have been allowed to help him without fear of eviction and in the beginning, I didn't think that was possible.

Now my concern has shifted from fear of eviction to a question of how long will this last. He likes Fox News and the 700 Club and I can't stand those shows. My computer is right next to the TV and he sleeps on the floor in the living room. I am trying to think of a way of rearranging my home so I can stay in my bedroom and he can do his thing in the living room. I hate waking him in the morning by getting on my computer and then he turns on the TV and talks to me and I can't focus on the forum. Perhaps I am spoiled because of having a home all to myself. Around the world, people live with so much less and perhaps I should work on being the person I want to be instead of being discontent with a situation I made happen.

A socialist? I advocated for the homeless in the 80's to get homeless people out of my home and here I am again.

Similar to words I typed previously, one set of hands, held out, opened and pushed forwards can do little to protect individuals from a cold blowing wind but if many other hands joined you then things can get better. It's very old but it's still very true..... UNITED, WE STAND! DIVIDED, WE FALL! — universeness

Yes, together we can do more and we can create a better reality and that is what democracy is about. Hum, what philosophers might I read to have a better understanding of working together?

↪Athena
I am so sorry to hear that you are possibly facing eviction and I am danger of being evicted too. The circumstances of my own is that the landlord where I am has left the country. I didn't know that he was subletting from an agency, and he had not been paying the rent to them recently. The real owner wishes to have the house back and, originally we were all meant to move in August but are still there paying rent. I am looking for accommodation on a daily basis and it is so hard to find anything apart from shabby overpriced tiny rooms from rogue landlords, who don't even give proper tenancy contracts. At the beginning I was confident about finding somewhere but have been panicking more in the last couple of weeks.

It is rather ironic that both of us who were writing about your concern about a man at the beginning of the thread are fearing eviction and potential homelessness. My general feeling is that life has become much harder in the last few years and, increasingly, people care less about others. So many people are struggling, the gulf between the rich and the poor is increasing and, often, people are being treated as mere numbers.

Anyway, I am trying to keep my inner strength and I hope that you keep strong. I hope that you don't get evicted and I will continue looking for somewhere because I think that the owner and agency will give myself and the others here a certain amount of time to find somewhere. — Jack Cummins

So true and you have experience with people who have cognitive problems! If you and I find the system is going against us, how much worse it must be for people with cognitive problems? You know what to do but people like the person I am helping, do not. We think of those people as the problem, but when we experience the problem ourselves we realize something has gone very wrong. I thought it would be easy to get this man into a rented bedroom because he has an income, but to my horror, bedrooms are hundreds of dollars more than the last time I checked.

It isn't just that we have a housing crisis but dealing with bureaucrats has become much harder. It is like since the pandemic everything has gotten worse.

You keep me aware that this is not just in the US. Did our faith in technology lead us into these problems? Or is the problem overpopulation and real shortages of land and timber to build homes? I think many of us are in shock. Our quality of life seems seriously threatened. What you said about those in control of the rentals is frightening. On top of everything else is worry about being scammed and taken advantage of. We have something called Craigslist and people are claiming to have rentals and are taking people's money for fees when they have no rental but are just cheating people. I swear we did not have this problem before. The shortage of housing has led to people being victimized because they hurry up and pay those fees afraid someone else will get the rental before they do. They are paying without meeting the scammer or seeing the rental.

↪Athena It's as I used to say, messy. All models are wrong. — Agent Smith

I would really like to know what you mean about all models being wrong. Time and again, I am realizing things are the same and not the same. For example, we all want to think we are caring people and for some, that means being socialist and for others, socialism is the great evil. But what are we talking about when we use labels? Many things appear to be different shades of the same thing but we are under the illusion that we have no agreement.

The Greeks didn't have all these labels and they argued about values and truths. Have we created a communication problem that might be resolved?

I have no doubt about that and believe the above quote to be quite accurate. You seem a tour de force.
I just wish others with power and determination would rally to you. Look at the women of Iran right now!
They have had enough of backwards misogynistic shit from religious antiques, and they are protesting and burning their hijabs. When you look at the protesting crowds, there are as many men out supporting the women as there are women. 6 people killed so far but this has not stopped the people. I so hope this grows into a serious challenge to the horrible regime in Iran. — universeness

For sure I hope the women win the fight for their rights. We burned our bras and I am so thankful the danger to us was not as it is for the women of backward countries.

An irresistible movement for serious and permanent change can also grow exponentially as well if people have had enough of injustices such as homeless in a land of plenty such as the USA. People get tired of lining the pockets of greedy landlords whilst their tenants live under rules which the landlords don't live under. The few can only steal the cream for so long. If you give people few reasons to live, then their fear reduces more and more, especially their fear of retribution if they revolt. They have little to lose but the controlling few have a great deal to lose. — universeness

This subject is very frightening because I think the US government has overextended itself. We are reaching our debt limit when war and problems caused by global warming threaten us. At the same time, our economy appears to be spinning out of control. This could be a different subject. For bloody sure, the increase in the minimum wage has not helped anyone as inflation keeps them down. We used to laugh at Russia because we heard many people jam into a home but here we are with people living together in their struggle to survive. As I said above the rules have changed allowing unrelated people to share housing. We must do more for people who need help but I don't know how we can. Things are out of control.

Couldn't agree more, once you get past all the trained monkeys, and the strange sounds and movements they make to distract you from the organ grinder, you reach the truth of the matter and can then clearly reveal how unfair and unfit for purpose the system is. Then you and your supporters can demand change, on threat of political deselection/destruction/removal of those currently in power. — universeness

Okay, I tried to communicate to the council on aging that reliance on technology is locking people out of medical care and services. The man I am trying to help is locked out because he can not use a cell phone. I struggle to use a cell phone and with forms and conversations based on specialized jargon. I am having trouble getting blood work done because talking to a robot over the phone is too frustrating! I throw up my hands and think so what if I drop dead? At least then I don't have to deal with the barriers to getting services. I am old. I think this reliance on technology is just rude. It sure makes me feel powerless. The problem is not the technology. I am walking because of medical technology. I love technology but how it is being used can be a problem.

As I typed, the distracting monkeys are well trained. They are perfectly aware that their system is front loaded with as much BS info as possible and as many 'up the hill and down again and around and around we go' pathways, to compel most applicants to go away and stop bothering them for help.

They know EXACTLY how to help each person but many local authorities would much rather spend their budget on maintaining the surrounding and services they provide for the 'well off,' people, not the challenged, needy people they consider a drain on their resources. The only hope for such challenged people is people like you! — universeness

I would not say their intention is to lock people out, but that is the result. Well, my sister was a bureaucrat and she does not hold a high opinion of government workers who can not relate to those they serve and intentionally ignore phone calls while they socialize with each other. But I think many of them are overwhelmed with heavy workloads. When the bureaucrat I had to speak with finally called back she sounded like a very nice person. We have communication problems that is for sure!!!

Agent Smith — Agent Smith

Deus — Deus

Deus — Deus

I found out things are not exactly as I thought they were. I don't know what to think now but some young people seem to be better than those they are replacing. There is a greater liberalness. When I was finally able to make phone contact with the important people they approved of me adding the gentleman I am helping to my housing. It appears the rules have changed along with people having a more liberal attitude. I would like to know how to research this. Like when did the rules change and what motivated the change? Was it our housing crisis and being overwhelmed with homeless people that lead to rules being changed?

Is the generation that is now taking the jobs more liberal than those before them and are my moral concerns unfounded fear of change? I would love to talk with the ancient Greek philosophers about my moral concerns. But that could be a little contentious. Plato's republic is the model of Utopias that failed, real and fictional ones. I am not the only one suspicious of government having too much power. In the 1830's Tocqueville wrote of Christian democracies becoming despots. There is Orwell and Huxley. And news talks about the popular distrust of government.

But the last couple of days have calmed me down. I am getting what I asked for and I am not sure I want it. :lol: I think I will be meek for a while and consider I may not know enough to be too sure of myself. And thanks for the replies. I wanted to know what the reaction would be because I was not sure of my thinking being good logic. My ego likes the idea of dying for a good cause but that does not make it a good thing to do.

Today I am facing the reality of possibly being evicted. and I am sacred. I am not sure things have come to that, but neighbors have warned me management was investigating. A decision to evict me can be made by people who do not know me and have not spoken with me. Not that long ago we knew each other and we could discuss the rules and if exceptions can be made. This made a huge difference in our moral decisions because we were aware of how we affected each other's lives and we felt for each other. Today feelings have been taken out of the equation. The decisions are totally impersonal. That difference has everything to do with our liberty and morality. Total strangers making decisions that affect our lives as much as an eviction affects a person's life, with no communication and no feelings could be thought of as the biblical beast. I am not Christian, but that the beast is a pretty good analogy of the power over us and how our liberty and personal power are being crushed.

Under that beast, family can not help family because of government-controlled privacy laws. The gentleman I am trying to help has a sister and a cousin who want to help, but privacy law prevents them from speaking for their brother and learning from the bureaucrats if there is any way to help him. We have made laws that destroy the family and make everyone dependent on the government. This is what we defended our democracy against in WWII and then we adopted Germany's model of bureaucracy and education for technology. We are now the mechanical society we defended our democracy against.

So what if people are dying on the streets because they have trouble functioning in today's world.
How is this different from rounding up the Jews and citizens not daring to resist the dictates of the government? I want to stress this is about our relationship with our government, our humanity, and morality and liberty.

I am considering suicide might make my life meaningful if it gets attention to the problem we have created. When I think of all the people who lost their lives defending our democracy and what things have come too, and how their sacfrice means nothing if we do not turn around and reestablish individiual liberty and power.

It is my opinion that hormones and hormone receptors do matter. However, with what we know today our sexuality is not as simple as being this or that. We now think of terms of a spectrum.

Also, some babies are born with atypical genitalia due to a difference in sex development.

This type of difference was once called a “disorder of sex development,” but this term is problematic. In a 2015 surveyTrusted Source, most respondents perceived the term negatively. A further review found that many people do not use it at all, and instead use “intersex.”

Being intersex can mean different things. For example, a person might have genitals or internal sex organs that fall outside of typical binary categories. Or, a person might have a different combination of chromosomes. Some people do not know that they are intersex until they reach puberty.

Biologists have started to discussTrusted Source the idea that sex may be a spectrum. This is not a new concept but one that has taken time to come into the public consciousness. For example, the idea of sex as a spectrum was discussed in a 1993 article published by the New York Academy of Sciences. — Medically reviewed by Emelia Arquilla, DO — By Tim Newman on May 11, 2021

I will back off Athena. I don't want it to seem like I am trying to manipulate your heartstrings to compel you to keep doing what you have always done. You have battled in support of those which our current society ignores and discards, you have done enough, regardless of what you decide to do next. — universeness

Oh please, I have found you validating and motivating. And this is not like the past. In the past, everything seemed manageable but now the problems have exploded. My community has done so much to resolve homelessness and the problem keeps getting bigger. However, you put me on a good path, of researching and believing I can do some good by testifying at the Oregon Legislature after the first of the year. I am really excited about what I might do.

I am reminded of a geology professor's explanation of exponential growth. That last doubling of the population makes manageable problems unmanageable and no one saw it coming because it seems to happen all at once. If we didn't have such a severe housing shortage we wouldn't have such a serious problem with homelessness. If the person I am trying to help could rent a bedroom for $400 there would be no problem. Many homeless people have a monthly income. It just isn't enough to pay the high rents. We don't have the land for more houses and the cost of building is extremely high. :lol: I don't know if a math lesson would help the legislature understand the problem. That is not the emotional story that motivates people to take action.

I also may have found a way to help the gentleman. Well, we have made a lot of progress, and doing this has been a learning experience. A huge barrier is communication! Every organization has its own terminology and acronyms and they just assume they are making sense when us outsiders don't have a clue what they are talking about. That is a problem that can be fixed without spending any money. Just stop using that insider talk when speaking with someone who is not an insider. And like a miracle, people are finally giving us written information that is useful.

I need to ponder if I can do that written information more effectively so every agency has all of it and a person asking for help can have that information from day one. For sure the 2 pages of rentals from 2 years ago, are not useful today and a person has to question if the bureaucrats have a good understanding of reality when they pass out useless information. :lol: You begin by saying the person is homeless and they ask for the person's address. You explain the person has brain damage and they want a phone number. They will gladly send information to a person's email and s/he can print it. Like they seem to have no clue of what it means to be homeless and brain damaged and without resources.

To my reckoning forced to be immoral is a contradictio in terminis. Coercion negates free will and where there is no freedom, there can be no morality.

Even so, we could bemoan such circumstances - it's stressful to say the least. Any system that puts people in such dilemmas needs to be put under the microscope because the problem won't go away by itself. schopenhauer1 might have a thing or two to say about this from an antinatalist point of view: being forced to play the game of life full of dilemmas/trilemmas/n-lemmas like the one the OP is in is immoral and I'm being as positive as possible when I say that. — Agent Smith

I so much appreciate your posts and I will address the state legislature about the moral dilemma, especially when a mother is evicted for helping an adult child. When our laws go against family values, they are wrong.

I have a 1940 Oregon Family Law book. Back in the day, we held family responsible for family. The responsibility did not end when someone became 18. The responsibility included the extended family and when people did not do the responsible thing of caring for family, the person could be fined. In the past, it was family I had to put on the streets. It is not homosexuals ruining family values, but industry, landlords, and government.

Attempt some crowdfunding and perhaps you could post the details here and perhaps some TPF members would contribute to a support fund. I would.
If I lived in Oregon I could help more, but I live in Scotland, so I do what I can when I can here and from here. — universeness

Thank you. I started to do that but on second thought that may not be a good solution unless we first created a nonprofit organization and had a clear plan about what we want and how much it would cost.

My granddaughter is rather annoyed with me for acting as though the person I am trying to help is the most important person, and she has a point. She works at the shelter and deals with the homeless every day. We are experiencing a housing and human crisis. Disabled people get an income of less than $900 a month and just to rent a bedroom is $600 to $700 dollars. That is why they are on the street and there is a lot of them! The man I am trying to help is more physically capable than those who are in wheelchairs. I assume many of the street people also have mental problems. I was not wanting to help everyone, but how just is it for me to try to get my person to the head of the line, in front of everyone else?

It has been almost two weeks and that is the limit most property managers set on having a guest. This is where I stop allowing him to spend the night unless the property manager says it is okay for him to stay longer. He was pretty depressed when he left this morning because he knows he can not depend on me as he depended on a woman who passed away. If he could find another woman who could use some help and has an extra bedroom that would be wonderful. He is limited but he does try to be helpful and he expresses concern for the other person and a lot of appreciation. He is ideal for the right woman.

And this is why I pulled away from working with the homeless. There are just some people I can not stand to leave on the streets, and the only thing I can do is pretend they do not exist. My granddaughter is right. He is just the person who got through my wall of protection by being at the Senior Center and looking like one of "us" not one of "them". It he looked and acted like the other homeless people, I would have avoided him. He got through my wall of denial that what is happening is a real horror of unmet human needs.

Agent Smith

nailed in on the head. To cope with some things we must be able to block out the pain.

You did not create the circumstances that some people live in. You REALLY have to remind yourself that you are not responsible, WE ALL ARE. You are trying to hold your hands up to try to deflect some of the blows that are being rained down on some people. YOU ARE AT LEAST DOING THAT. Most people do less than you, a lot less than you, especially amongst those who DO have the power, position and wealth to make a significant difference. I fully agree that you should continue to try to get as much help as you can from ANY other group/organisation/network/individual you can, to try to alleviate some of the pressure on you. Even something as enigmatic as crowdfunding may be a source of help for you.

15,000 CHILDREN UNDER 5 years of age die EVERY DAY from preventable conditions such as hunger, curable/preventable disease etc. That's a Jewish holocaust EVERY YEAR! (15000x365=5475000).
Innocent children! We can't act like theists and say things like 'god works in mysterious ways.' But in truth, I think that only satisfies very few people. Probably only quite self-absorbed, narcissistic people.
We must try to do what people like you do and add our hands to your hands where and when we can.
It's very hard when we are trying to deflect waves coming towards people with our hands, but many hands make light work. You are a tiny row boat in an ocean of need, yet you will still try to pull one or two people out of the water, even risking yourself, falling into the water.
If there is a god and folks like you don't get into the heaven you imagine, then the vast majority of all who call themselves Christian or Moslem etc, etc ad nauseum, won't get in either, including most kings, queens, popes, priests, nuns, ministers, imams, guru's etc etc. — universeness

Your point is made and now I have to act on it. I have emailed two local programs for people with brain damage. This looks like a good starting point.

I am a little excited because the homeless problem is so complex and huge, that I couldn't find a good resource for homeless people in general, but when this was reworded as a brain problem, there are places to turn. So if I begin with them, perhaps more could be done for those who are homeless because of mental issues. They need extra help because they don't have the cognitive ability to access the help that they are qualified to have.

My sister helps these people in another city. Her people are dying on the streets and we finally have a law to record deaths resulting from homelessness. We are not doing a good job of resolving the problems because we do not have a good understanding of them. There is so much to do. I wish I were thirty and had the energy to do more.

An extraordinary level of delusion is needed to assert this.

But too far off thread. — Banno

Well, I do have thoughts along that line. I could just pray for everyone and make myself feel good without risking anything. Or I could argue why that doesn't work real well. And that IS behind why I started this thread and used the word "moral". It would be great if I could say a prayer and go on my way feeling that I have done all that needs to be done.

In a democracy, our laws and institutions, are based on what we believe and I believe what some people believe is part of the problem. God did not build Noah's ark and maybe He doesn't take care of everything, so we may need to identify problems and hopefully come to a consensus on how to resolve them.

Is it moral to leave disabled people on the streets to die?

Athena: ‘I am sure your concern about the rules surely comes down to human values.’

Really?

Athena: ‘You put the rules first…

No. I put you first by providing information I thought may prevent you from becoming homeless.

Human values? Ha! No, I don’t think much about human values at all. These are the values that allow people, even very ill people to live in the streets.

Think about the 10 Commandments outside of their connection to religion. If everyone lived by only these 10 “rules” no one would be living in the streets. — ArielAssante

I like my grandmother's 3 rules better.

1. We respect everyone. It makes no difference if the other is a bum or the mayor because it is about our character. We are respectful people or we are not.

2. We protect the dignity of others.

3. We do everything with integrity

I just pulled a virtue card. Out of 52 virtues I pulled Generosity.

"Generosity is giving and sharing. It is giving freely because you want to, not with the idea of receiving a reward or a gift in return. Generosity is a quality of the spirit. It is an awareness that there is plenty for everyone. It is seeing an opportunity to share what you have and then giving just for the oy of giving. Generosity is one of the best ways to show love.

Signs of Success

I am practicing generosity when I...

Am thoughtful about the needs of others.
Notice when someone needs help.
Give freely without holding back.
Am willing to make sacrifices for others.
Use wisdom about sharing treasured belongings."

Ah ha, That last one could mean it is not wise for me to have someone in my home when that could lead to a problem for me.

Not that I'm a psychologist, but methinks the brain blocks out the pain & evil in the world, locks it all up in a special place, deep in our subconscious in order to stay sane. I have used antivirus software and there's this feature called quarantine which is kinda like a prison where malware are isolated so that they can't do damage to the computer. Same applies to dangerous memes and our brains - imagine if we were ever to feel all the pain & evil extant in our world; it would overwhelm us completely. It would be a chain reaction of suffering, no one would be happy and that's the worst-case scenario, oui? That outta the way, I'd say there's no pleasure that ain't in some way guilty and we're all culpable if it were a crime to turn a blind eye to the suffering of other people. Confiteor, mea culpa. — Agent Smith

You are onto something. We must not blame the bureaucrats for not doing their job because their jobs involve so much pain they can not survive them without the ability to turn off awareness of the pain. People become social workers thinking they want to help others, which means they feel the pain day after day until one day, it is gone. I knew a man who gave up being a police officer when he was called into one more child abuse case. He felt nothing and he did not want to be someone who could deal with child abuse and feel nothing, so he stopped being a police officer.

I have a 94-year-old Senior Companion cleint who was a case worker. She was given the most difficult mental cases. For the first year she could not sleep because she could not feel at peace with the reality of people's struggles. She considered quitting but finally, she did what you describe. She learned to put it in a box. I have to put the challenge of helping the man I am helping in a box so each day I am there 100% for my Senior Companion clients.

I am so aware of turning a blind eye to the suffering of others. I do feel guilty when I pretend someone
in need is not there. We have many beggars on our streets so this happens daily. To survive I just have to limit the people I engage with. That is why I become politically active from time to time. There is so much unmet human need out there that charitable organizations are not enough. Only the government is large enough organization to manage the problem, and the problem is increasing daily like global warming. This is overpopulation and I so regret religions that argue against the things we can do for birth control.

The network of folk with disabilities in which I'm involved has grown over the last few years to include folk from outside Australia. One of the things that has shocked and disgusted me is the realisation of how disjointed and inadequate the support given folk with disabilities in the United States is.

It's no use to anyone if you are evicted. At some point you may have to ask your guest to leave, so that you can continue to support him. That is not an immoral act on your part, nor an act of expediency, but simply the best thing to do. You are in a better position to provide help if you maintain your own circumstances.

A strategy that has proven useful here is to be open about one's circumstances, to the point of informing local, state and federal services and politicians, and lobby groups. The absurdity of your situation can serve to draw out the best in service providers, but also making sure that they are aware they are being watched and evaluated and that their responses will be known tends to focus them on their duties.

For better or worse you are an advocate for folk with acquired brain injuries, and for folk with disabilities in general. Get in touch with other advocates, find out what they have done in the past and what has worked and what hasn't.

Basically you need to network. — Banno

I am soo thankful for your understanding and help. What is happening is not what I expected. All the simple fixes are not working. I thought I could immediately get him into the shelter program, then I remembered they put people on the floor and he can not get up and down without a chair to lean on and chairs are not allowed. He is a nice person but to my surprise a nice person with a brain injury worse than a stroke. This very nice, well-dressed, social person can flip out in two seconds. That is, his good behavior is dependent on his environment and that means he will not do well standing in a line of homeless people with no social skills and who do not fit his idea of what a person should be. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. The problem is much worse than I thought it was. Because of the brain damage, his good behavior in the Senior Center, is very different from when he saw a man made up like a woman at a fast food place. A line of troubled people such as the ones where he might get help, make him flee like a person running out of a burning building. He does not see himself as one of them and can not tolerate being in the same space with them. I stress, we are talking about brain damage here. He can not be rational but reacts without thinking.

He becomes very tired in the afternoon and falls asleep, and there is no place where he can do this, unless we get him into a place for special needs people. This is not about willfulness. The stroke leads to a fatigue problem that is different from being tired and able to push through the feeling of tiredness. All of this means the shelters for most of the homeless will not work for him. I have volunteered in the winter shelters and they are horrifying. I have watched people struggle in wheelchairs, and people walk out into the snow with open sandals, trench foot is a common problem and can lead to amputations. My sister and I have seen terrible things and it takes very special people who can deal with it. I can not. I thought the man I am helping was an easy case.

If he could use a cell phone he never would have been in my home because then I could contact him for appointments. As we try to work through the system, we are using my cell phone and a helping agency for his mailing address. Can you believe this, you say someone is homeless and they ask for his phone number and address!

We most certainly have an organizational problem! To my horror, yesterday's interview was not the last stop to getting help. I don't know why but we are waiting for a second phone interview. I work and the chances of him and I being together when they call is very small. The young woman who interviewed us did not seem to know enough to help us. And it took a week of phone calls and finally going into the office to get that interview.

How are things organized where you are? We are not organized and we don't even seem to have a good understanding of what homeless means. I don't think most know how frustrating this is. It is so wrong to expect the people who seriously need help to get through the system. Even with experience and college education, trying to get through the system is extremely difficult. I would give up if I was doing this for myself.

As to the personal dilemma. This is a matter which can only be solved in your own heart. No external principle or moral law will be sufficient. Being honest with yourself is key. People with strong impulses to help others are often fulfilling something inside themselves that is totally unrelated to the people they and others think are being helped. And going to extremes can be a symptom of it. Not suggesting this is true for you. Only you could know. — ArielAssante

I hear what you are saying. However, as I learn more, I wish my path had not crossed with his. I thought this was going to be a quick fix. As I just explained to Pantagruel, this is not going to be a quick fix. On the other hand, it is a darn good thing I did step in because important steps have been taken that could not have happened if I had not stepped in.

However now I think I have to take things to the political level. I don't know how we can do it but we seriously need safe shelters for disabled people. Homelessness kills many people every year and the elderly are especially at risk. We have people in wheelchairs and people with cancer and people brain issues living and dying on the streets. It is not just bums and druggies out of there. What kind of civilization ignores the needy?

When the Nasis started taking away the Jews citizens ignored what was happening. We are ignoring what is happening too. I am sure your concern about the rules surely comes down to human values. You put the rules first and I think we should put human values first. How might I better bridge with those who put the rules first?

I would hope to have the courage to continue to offer my support (in your place) and achieve the best outcome before suffering personal setback, but I can't honestly say I would do. I am glad there are people like you in the world, it is undoubtedly a better place because. If I were the person deciding to evict you I certainly wouldn't do that, even if that meant problems for me. Could you dialog with your housing agency to try and pre-empt that problem? — Pantagruel

I am pushing it and figure when two weeks is up I will have to speak with the property manager. I can now prove my intentions and progress. We have his case transferred to the local Senior and Disabled Services and had an interview and now we are waiting for another interview that might get him closer to housing.

Let me tell you I think I bit off more than I can chew. Dealing with someone who has the brain damage he has is challenging. In the beginning, I thought it was just a stroke but I spoke with his sister in another state and learned the dent in his forehead is the result of a blow to his head that damaged his right frontal lobe. That means a lack of self-control and behavior problems. We went into a fast food place and the person at the counter was a little bizarre and he totally flipped out! He said the person was a man dressed as a woman and went on about the bible. I got him out of there as fast as possible. Now I see directing him to the White Bird and the Service Station is not going to work because if people are different he flips out and has to flea. Both the places where he can help have many strange people hanging around.

The night shelter puts people on the floor and he can not get off the floor without a chair and chairs are not allowed in the room. The stroke has caused him post-stroke fatigue which means he falls asleep in the afternoon and the group sleep places have strict rules about when people can enter and when they can sleep.

Our only hope is to get him into a special program for disabled people and that could take months. We could have killer freezing nights before that happens. And leaving on his own reduces his ability to function. On the other hand, I might kill him first. Only kidding, but his religious and political ideas are the total opposite of mine. I let him watch whatever TV shows he wants to watch, like letting a kid watch cartoons so the child can be ignored, and I have to leave the room because I can not tolerate the 700 Club and Fox channel. God is preparing me for sainthood with this person. My reaction to what he thinks, and likes, is as bad as his reactions to what he does not like, only I can hold my tongue and leave the room.

I am torn but I am kind of glad a property manager can say he has to go. I just wish he had a good place to go to.

If this new age actually comes to pass, let's not fool ourselves, it will supply just as much brutality as the old age, only the justification for it will change. Mark my words. — Merkwurdichliebe

Why do you say that? I am concerned that running everything from the top down is leading to a Nazi-type organization. But on the other hand, I am amazed by the amount of concern for homeless people today. In my community, we used the police to drive the homeless away. At first, the change was gradual but in 2008 we hit a tipping point and today candidates try to win our vote by saying they will resolve the homeless problem. I think there is more tolerance for people who are different but that seems to have increased violence as individuals try to right what they see as wrong with violence.

Just like rushing into a burning home to save someone is a super-moral act, it is not immoral to refuse to do so. — Hanover

I like your reasoning.

In terms of why your community prohibits you from having guests of this sort I don't know, but it raises the question of why your home is so highly regulated and why your community would have such rules. — Hanover

It be just my area but I have Section 8 Housing and the is federal. Anyone who has anything to do with drugs is evicted, so a mother sheltering a son or daughter who uses, will be evicted. We might be able to change that because we changed how the state handles children when they are made wards of the state but wow that was a huge effort involving many people, organizing and getting media attention and all that may have been fertile but we had a new governor who wanted to change things so all our work enabled the governor to make changes. However, with the information Banno gave me, I am thinking maybe I should become more of an activist regarding brain-damaged people and the wrong of living them on the street without caseworkers and the help they need. My sister is a homeless activist and we are planning on testifying at the state level after the first of next year when the legislature will take up the problem of homelessness again.

Section 8 does not allow sharing homes. I am not sure about all of that. If I got married I could share a home but I sure don't want to do that! My rental agreement is for one person and all the rentals have been in have a two limit on visits. That is reasonable but it is not adequate for a brain-damaged person. I think we can all agree brain damaged people should not be alone on the streets unless that is their choice. My guest's ability to function has greatly improved this past week and we have essential progress on hooking him up with services and the medical community. We need shelters for these people complete with the ability to evaluate them and then help them get the right services and shelter and that just isn't economically possible right now. Before Reagan, we did have places for these people but Reagan closed them when he was president. Some of the places were hell holes because far, far more people needed help than communities could help. Some of the places were ideal with different levels of care. Oh dear, thank you for your questions, I have so much research to do. :cry: I am really way too small and limited to do what needs to be done and back to the moral thing, it is like Nazi Germany if I ignore the problem and do nothing. In a democracy, people are supposed to take responsibility for resolving problems. In Germany's Christian Republic the state controlled everything and the people were made powerless. I fear we are moving in that direction but I also see a lot of movement for the good. :worry: I am way too small and limited but does that excuse me?

Sorry at the moment I am feeling overwhelmed because there is so much more for me to do if I become more politically active. You made me aware of how much research I have to do. :lol: I don't know if all this is helpful but I will try to find it in me to learn more and organize my thinking. By the way, I have sleep apnea and would become totally dysfunctional if I became homeless and didn't have electricity for my CPAP. I would rather be dead than homeless but that is another thread labeled "life sucks".

On the upside, just as much good is happening as bad. I have heard the New Age is a total change of consciousness and those who come of age in the New Age will not be able to relate to our brutal past.

I LOVE YOU GUYS, ALL OF YOU. YOU ARE AN IMPORTANT PART OF CHANGE.

The moral principle is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
— Athena
Right. This is supposed to be said by Jesus, and so it has been persisted in time as a rule of conduct among Christians. However, Jesus also taught turning "the other cheek". Now, how many among the about 2 billion Christians apply it? I believe you know the almost inexistent percentage. So, I believe this principle has and utterly failed, as it was expected to, besides. This is what happens when the bar is raised too high. — Alkis Piskas

That comment about raising the bar too high is interesting, but the quote is also called the golden rule, and as you said it exists in all civilizations only worded slightly differently.

“Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you.” is a Confucius quote. Your explanation of why that is a better way of wording the thought is appreciated. I will agree with you.

I am not sure of what you said about taxes. Because I have been politically active, I know the majority of people vote for social programs but not the tax increases to fund them. For many years I was a political activist to get something done about homelessness, so I am very aware of the reality of people in favor of doing the right thing, but no one wants to pay more taxes. In the past, Oregon had few people and a lot of forests, and the government paid for everything with revenues from the forest. Texas paid for things with revenues from oil. Eventually, there are more people are fewer resources for revenue and then we end up paying taxes. That is an economic problem.

I think we have many economic problems and that we all could face economic collapse. That is another issue. This morning I picked up the latest information for low-income people who need shelter and I am wondering who is in touch with reality and who is not! Does the government bureaucracy that puts out this information realize how discouraging it is to read low-income houses is hundreds of more than what they have? I studied Public Policy and Administration at the university level and that was the most depressing time in my life. Government is not the answer, at least not the way we are going about things now. I heard a public statement encouraging people like me to help by renting a bedroom, but the rules of the game for low-income people prevents that. We have given too much power to the government and "land lords" to control everything and lost our individual liberty and power. That is in the US. I don't know how that is around the world.

Oh dear, we need to discuss economics and see if we can figure out better rules for the game. Another problem is we don't have enough land for families to have the nice-sized plots they once had and the cost of building a house is for too high to build low-income housing that is affordable for many of us who need low-income housing and as our population increases, these problems are going to get worse. My son's and daughter's generation will experience far more homeless old people than we have now because we are not building the public housing for them that they will need. People with small houses can't take in their aging parents, or their adult children. We just are not planning for meeting our shelter needs.

I got to the point where I stopped having these people into my room as I was worried that I would lose my accommodation and some people advised me that it was not safe for me to have such visitors. — Jack Cummins

Good someone with experience. Experience with people who need help and experience with the moral dilemma. It is absolutely best for me to avoid people who need help because I am so strongly compelled to help. As some would say, I don't have good boundaries.

I have been listening to college lectures about how ancient Athens argued about character and moral dilemmas of judging good and bad. It has always been my nature (a basic trait of character) to care for others, and even put their needs and desires before mine. Ignoring someone who needs help strongly goes against my nature. For me, in every cell in my body, it is a moral mandate that I help those who need help and want help. THIS IS NOT 100% RATIONAL. IT IS A STRONG FEELING.

On the other hand, for me, this is politically like Nazi Germany because it is a matter of who has the power to be the authority over us and how is that justified? Some may say God alone has authority over us and that comes up in preChristian Greek debates and against with Protestants and arguments for democracy. A king orders that a man be left to rot in the fields and his sister buriers him. The king is livid with her and she snaps back, even before the kings, sisters buried their bothers.

Antigone buried her brother out of devotion and loyalty to both the Gods and her family. Without one or the other, she would not have had the courage or thought of going against Creon’s law and putting her life out on the line. — ancient-literature

If we bow to authority as the Germans did, we destroy our liberty. We destroy the notion that we turn to a god to know right from wrong. This does not have to be the god of Abram, it is a matter of reverence. This matters because it is a matter of responsibility and personal power and our character, if we are moral and upstanding citizens or not. We fought two world wars to defend that point of view.

We all judge right and wrong with our feelings and if we take that out of the equation, may the gods have mercy on us. What does everyone think defined Nazi Germany if not a matter of power and authority? In the beginning, the Jews were just removed and if German citizens had united in a conviction of human rights, none of the rest would have followed. By the time enough people realized something was seriously wrong, individuals no longer had the power to make a difference without losing their jobs and maybe their lives.

Homelessness is torture and it is a death sentence.

If there are social services that can adequately take care of this man I don’t imagine it would take a lot of time to connect with them, but perhaps for some reason it does. — praxis

It is much much harder than I expected! I need information I don't have. Thank goodness I have gained the ability to talk with his sister who lives in a different state and I learned a lot. That dent in his forehead is the result of being mugged and robbed. The blow to his head caused right frontal lobe brain damage and that is why he has a disability income, meaning his income is less than $900 a month, and renting just a bedroom is over $700. He has a car so he has a bit of a life but that is a major expense. On top of that is untreated diabetes and he has repeatedly had strokes damaging his brain, even more. We have made huge progress in his ability to find his way from my home to the senior center and we have a medical appointment in a couple of weeks which opens the door to getting help.

His ability to think things through is very low so getting a cell phone is next to impossible! I got him to the store to look at cell phones but we could not complete the process of buying one. He threw away his last one away because he has trouble using them. I brought him home because I had no one of contacting him when he is lost on the streets.

Time for me to get back on task. The Senior and Disable Services is open in a few minutes. I have until 12:30 before I go to work today, so maybe we can get something done!

THANK YOU EVERYONE- I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ALL AS SOON AS CAN.