Take me down to the river
Take away all the anxiety — Olivier5

But I disagree with this statement as far too simple of a view:

"Moreover, there is no such thing as philosophical Daoism. — Valentinus

This argument that excludes the "philosophical" by default is a construct of its own in so far as it assumes the western tradition has succeeded in separating that activity from the religious. I am tired of all the babies getting thrown out with the bathwater. — Valentinus

one finds repeated admonitions to refrain from behavior patterns that dissipate one’s foundational vitality. — Valentinus

It isn’t about their own intentions, but about the flow of energy - the distribution of attention and effort as far as their awareness of it extends into the world. Perhaps it isn’t that their intentions are hidden, but that they comprise only one facet of this more complex flow of energy. — Possibility

Barrett talks in her book about the ‘body-budgeting’ system, which manages the flow of energy for the organism - including energy flowing to and from the people and situations around us - and how affect plays a role. — Possibility

As a matter of philosophy, the text appeared amongst other views regarding "naming" and language. Contrasts between Mohist and Confucius are commonly drawn. But the matter is complicated by circumstances. The period when these texts appeared was followed by a dark age of the Qin Dynasty who expressed their distaste for scholars of any stripe through erasure.
We only know of these works at all because of various "enlightenments" who had their own agendas long afterwards.
As in the western tradition, the act of preservation is not completely separable from the ends of the one who saves. — Valentinus

From that point of convergence, the line between the practical and the intellectual is not only a type of self awareness but an understanding of what is around you and the capacity to act effectively as a result.
[emphasis added]

A lot of scholars resist reading this perspective as the intention of Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi but the many traditions that used those maps for their own purposes are important voices to be heard. — Valentinus

Handbooks for Daoist Practice (Xiudao shouce 修道手冊) consists of ten
“handbooks.” These include handbooks two through ten (the nine booklets
that are the Daoist translation series proper). These are translations of nine
important, representative, and praxis-orientated Daoist texts. The first (or
tenth) handbook is an introduction to the series as a whole. — Trans. Louis Komjathy

This is why I pretended to say — javi2541997

the conclusion that without philosophy a society can be in decay.
After 6 or 7 years I see it now. We are in decay... — javi2541997

I had a good teacher in school — javi2541997

Hopefully, I finally found a good website like this after years of searching. — javi2541997

I think not at all because Taoism tend to be ideal. I respect and like the poems but somehow I only believe if I live it. I guess this is why I always like empiricism. — javi2541997

I guess it is better than mine. I wanted to translate it with my own vocabulary or brief use of dictionary because Google translate doesn’t translate it properly I think... — javi2541997

I guess (just my interpretation) that Tao is developing here the principle of omnipresence. When the poem says “advances when he turns back” I think it is referring to either Principle itself or our knowledge. — javi2541997

I think there is something worthy in framing the "solution" as a history of relation to the Tao, even if people disagree about what relationships are being brought into view. That element is good way to investigate the intention of the text but also how to see what came from framing reality this way. The "natural" is presented as a result of beings being created through opposites related to other opposites — Valentinus

..Hold fast to the Way of old, in order to control what is here today.
The ability to know the ancient beginnings, this is called the thread of the Way.
— Ivanhoe

Notes:
32. Returning to an ideal past state is a common theme in the text.
For other examples see chapters 16, 25, 28, 30 and 52. — Amity

This just gives you an idea of my process... — Possibility

Three-quarters of that time was spent in an oppressive haze of confusion. — TheMadFool

Yes - I think this verse is the beginning of a new tack. First of all, these are aspects of reality that elude us in some way. Perhaps we can look at them this way: — Possibility

What he did see was that, unable to examine these aspects closely as such, we tend to confuse them all as one. This doesn’t help...
Lao Tzu’s solution seems to be to examine our history of relation to the Tao, and the very next verse begins with a description of the old masters. — Possibility

Looked for but not seen, its name is ''minute''.
Listened for but not heard, its name is ''rarified''.
Grabbed for but not gotten, its name is ''subtle''.
These three cannot be perfectly explained, and so are confused and regarded as one...

...Trailing off without end, it cannot be named.
It returns to its home, back before there were things. ( note 32)

...Hold fast to the Way of old, in order to control what is here today.
The ability to know the ancient beginnings, this is called the thread of the Way. — Ivanhoe

Further careful thought and reflection required.
— Amity

How might I do that? Any ideas? — TheMadFool

that's just me and nothing to do with what Laozi really wanted to share regarding reality and our place in it. — TheMadFool

I suppose my approach to the Tao Te Ching is heavily influenced by my fascination with detective fictions like Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot - I look at everything, at least try to, as a mystery that needs a solving. — TheMadFool

This is where I sign off...
Good luck! — TheMadFool

I think it's more than that. It looks like your quote comes from Verse 45, so we'll get back to it. We could skip directly to that verse, but some don't like my habit of jumping around.
— T Clark
:up: — TheMadFool

The way we are discussing the TTC is quite disjointed...
Having said that, it has proven to be fascinating and illuminating.
Perhaps a meandering path is just right for us... — Amity

I've been happy with how well we have stayed on the path I envisioned when I started this thread. It doesn't feel disjointed to me at all. — T Clark

In my next post, I will start with the first verse. After that, if people want to bring in their own favorites, that will be ok. I would like to work our way through it more or less in order. I will skip many verses just because I feel like it.

Keep in mind - I'm not going to be talking about what the TTC means. I will be talking about what it means to me. — T Clark

Well, I must've read a cheap knockoff version of the Tao Te Ching then. Sorry. But for what it's worth a few verses that prove my point that the Tao Te Ching is about paradoxes: — TheMadFool

paradoxes serve the important function of forcing us to think about reality itself. — TheMadFool

Definition of Paradox
A paradox is a statement that appears at first to be contradictory, but upon reflection then makes sense. This literary device is commonly used to engage a reader to discover an underlying logic in a seemingly self-contradictory statement or phrase. As a result, paradox allows readers to understand concepts in a different and even non-traditional way...

As a literary device, paradox functions as a means of setting up a situation, idea, or concept that appears on the surface to be contradictory or impossible. However, with further thought, understanding, or reflection, the conflict is resolved due to the discovery of an underlying level of reason or logic. This is effective in that a paradox creates interest and a need for resolution on the part of the reader for understanding. This allows the reader to invest in a literary work as a means of deciphering the meaning of the paradox.

A method to resolve paradoxes is to play with words — TheMadFool

I tinkered around with the semantics which I already informed you is reality as it is. This technique of resolving contradictions is a cheap trick, yes, but only if resolving paradoxical contradictions were the aim; the paradoxes in the Tao Te Ching are not meant to be resolved at all. Au contraire, they're meant to put pressure on the mind to look past the words and go into semantics which, as I explained earlier, is reality itself, beyond words. — TheMadFool

Fear is not an illusion, anymore than money or countries are illusions. — Possibility

Using Oxford dictionary could be: a whole is greater than the sum of its parts — javi2541997

Sometimes is difficult because philosophy has a complex vocabulary. — javi2541997

I think it is more worthy just put the images (if you do not mind) because it is short the dialogue between Lao-Tzu and Tu-Fu... Sorry is in Spanish (casitilian by the way :joke: ) — javi2541997

It remembers me about Democritus when he explained philosophically the course of the water.
Mirror should be the representation of ourselves, then the water of how the life is going through it. Changing when the years are passing. Probably this is why Lao said Tao Te King is a book that is with us during the life journey... — javi2541997

Taoist paradoxes can be resolved by redefining words like I did with the word "up" in the preceding paragraph.
— TheMadFool

How do you do this with regard to the TTC ? — Amity

The Tao is not about words, it's about what Kant calls "ding an sich" understood in the broadest sense possible. — TheMadFool

Beautiful poem from Lao-Tzu to Tu-Fu. The path of virtue
Water and mirror are the key to enter in Taoism thought. — javi2541997

Anyway, the "...one very important aspect of language" I'm talking about is...from where I stand...it's Olympic gymnast level flexibility which I suppose translates to arbitrariness. — TheMadFool

In semiotics, the general theory of signs, sign systems, and sign processes, Saussure introduced the notion of arbitrariness according to which there is no necessary connection between the material sign (or signifier), and the entity it refers to or denotes as its meaning (or signified) as a mental concept or real object.

The principle of semiotic arbitrariness refers to the idea that social convention is what imbues meaning to a given semiosis (any activity, conduct, or process that involves signs, including the production of meaning) or sign.[5]

What about how arbitrary words and the meanings assigned to them are? — TheMadFool

Taoist paradoxes can be resolved by redefining words like I did with the word "up" in the preceding paragraph. — TheMadFool

What's intriguing about this rather devious technique of resolving Laozi paradoxes is that it forces us to think about semantics/meanings and what is semantics/meanings but reality itself, that which words are aimed at capturing. In a way then, Laozi paradoxes are designed to make us confront, come face to face with, reality directly by arranging rendezvous with semantics/meanings. — TheMadFool

I’ve looked through several verses looking for instances of “heaven” and “earth.” — T Clark

The second section deals with “Te,” sometimes translated as “virtue.” I don’t know if that is significant or not. — T Clark

The way I see it, all humans, perhaps all sentient beings for that matter, come with a constellation of limits to (their) understanding imposed by physical or mental factors (sorry I can't be more specific than that) and we, humans, try our very best to fit reality, the universe, within a construct so constrained. In short, we are the cage and reality is the bird we want encage i.e. grasp on our own terms. — TheMadFool

I don't really have anything to say about these texts. I just wanted to put them down so I can soak in them for a while. — T Clark

Are you saying that you are Saige? If so, the fact that you speak with two different voices is confusing. — T Clark

Flat out wrong = I don't understand what you're saying. — T Clark

Even if you see through an illusion, you still need the body and mind to enable this.
— Amity
Are you saying I need the illusion to see through the illusion? — T Clark

Addis and Lombardo say "The self embodies distress. No self, No distress." Illusion is my word. — T Clark

I'll take a look and see if anything interesting pops out. — T Clark

... second guessing other translators with our limited understanding will just increase the cacophony of meanings. — T Clark

Ivanhoe's influence on themes such as the virtues, ethical cultivation and human nature reflects the influence of Yearley's view that Confucianism may be understood as a form of virtue ethics. Ivanhoe has co-edited a number of anthologies of secondary essays on Chinese thought, and has published a large number of essays and articles in reference works on Confucianism, Mohism and Daoism.

Before the book starts, there is a brief story about how supposedly Tao was written. I going to explain it to you: — javi2541997

The guardian and the wiser. Lao-Tzu and Tu-Fu.

Lao-Tzu didn’t want to speak but Tu-Fu was asking many question to him. — javi2541997

Often when someone references a source, I go look it up on the web. I tried that but didn't find anything, so I wondered if this was someone you could give me a link to. — T Clark

There is only one world. All philosophers are describing the same thing. — T Clark

My body and my self are both things I call "me," but they are really different. It means something different to say "See your body as the world" rather than "See your self as the world." Except, in some way, apparently, it's not different. — T Clark

Not necessarily. I can also have no body when I have seen through the illusion that my body is my self. — T Clark

So where Amity mentions that “without a body I am dead”, I don’t think we can overlook this reality. My existence depends on substance, and as much as I can think of the self as immaterial, it’s actually inseparable from this substance: a living existence that suffers greatly and then dies. This is a startling reality for some of us to face, a frightening one for others. But it’s undeniable, all the same. — Possibility

I do like Ivanhoe's take on this verse, although I don't see the significance of apprehension/reverence. — T Clark

Classical Chinese is an isolating language, meaning that each graph stands alone at all times, in isolation, without affixes of any kind, and unmarked for case, number, gender, or tense. The third-person pronoun ta can be he, him, her, she, it; they, them. And so can the graph qi, 其. qu, 去, retains exactly that form for go, going, gone, and went. What follows is that most Chinese characters can serve equally as both nouns and verbs, and modifiers too (adjectives and adverbs); apart from context no graph has a unique grammatical function. Word order is supposedly fixed, being Subject-Verb-Object, but so-called nouns regularly default to verbs (e.g., “running is a strenuous exercise”). Style also made the topic subject of the sentence difficult to ascertain, as when the head noun or object was omitted whenever context made it even slightly clear who or what it was. — SEP article by Henry Rosemount Jr.

At times semantic concerns can reduce the number of interpretive possibilities of a sentence or section, but unfortunately at other times the semantic content of the characters can increase them. This is a major reason why the Daodejing, to take a famous example, is impenetrable to a few, enigmatic to many more, and highly allusive for everyone, and has been the subject of well over 150 translations of it in English alone, as noted earlier. — As above

道 可 道 非 常 道
Dao ke dao fei chang dao.

道
(in first, third, and sixth positions here) means “path”, “way”, “the way”, “to follow”, “to go down a path”. It also means “to speak”, “doctrines”.
可
functions like English modal “can”.
非
a sign of negation; usually in the sense of “not the same as”.
常
“unvarying”, “constant”, “enduring”, “unchanging”.
Literally, then, we have something like “dao can dao not the same as unchanging dao”. — As above

Sporadic sessions were held in Abbey Road during October, during the first of which Dick Parry, an old friend of the band’s from Cambridge, overdubbed sax solos to Money and Us And Them.

Later in the month a quartet of female session vocalists – Doris Troy, Lesley Duncan, Liza Strike and Barry St John – were brought in to embellish Us And Them, Brain Damage and Eclipse.

"They weren’t very friendly," said Duncan looking back. "They were cold, rather clinical. They didn’t emanate any kind of warmth… They just said what they wanted and we did it… There were no smiles. We were all quite relieved to get out."

Is this a friend of yours? — T Clark

So, you're saying she smells nice? — T Clark

I read the works as centrally concerned with how to navigate the real world.
There are elements of the mysterious that are important not to exclude. The different translators express different opinions on this dimension. Talking about those matters seems to be the biggest divide in traditions.
So, with that in mind, The Enchiridion or Handbook of Epictetus matches a lot of the imperative quality of the speech even if what the problem is said to be starts from such different beginnings. — Valentinus

The Tao is not a thing, it is an experience. Lao Tzu is leading us to experience the Tao. Maybe the path will be different for different people. — T Clark

According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness, or blessedness) is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or by the fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly. — wiki

What does it mean to see the world as yourself? What does it mean to treasure your body as the world? To see your self as part of the whole, as unified with the Tao? And your body? Again, the use of "self" vs. "body" seems to make a big difference in the meaning. — T Clark

just to hear what I'd missed that evening way back in the crowd blissfully stoned with a girl. — 180 Proof