I would suggest that what we call an accident is the opposite of what we call a necessity. So the more fundamental dichotomy is chance and necessity. Or what in the systems view is the top down constraints and the bottom up degrees of freedom. — apokrisis

In that simplistic dichotomy, where is the "logical efficacy" of the OP? Is it in the "top-down constraints" or the "bottom-up degrees of freedom". Is it the top-down logical or intentional efficacy that the OP was arguing against? :smile:

My claim is that there are only a limited number of situations where it has Collingwood’s logical efficacy. — T Clark

Causation without Intent is what we call Accident. — Gnomon
That may be what YOU call it. I just call it causation. You can choose to believe there is intent involved in all causation, but you cannot possibly show that causation requires it. — Relativist

I choose to believe that, for the calculations of Physics, intention may be irrelevant. But for the purposes of Philosophy, intention is essential. For example, a pool table with neatly stacked balls is static & causeless, until the intentional act (first cause) of the shooter inputs both Energy (causation) and Direction (intention) into the frozen tableau*1. All subsequent causation -- bouncing balls -- is indeed mechanical & purposeless . But physical causation is of little interest to a philosopher*2, whose focus is on logical causation*3. :smile:


*1. Tableau :
a group of models or motionless figures representing a scene from a story or from history; a tableau vivant.
___Oxford Dictionary

*2. Etiology is the study of the causes, origins, or reasons behind the way that things are, or the way they function, or it can refer to the causes themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology

*3. Logical causation :
refers to the idea that a logical relationship can imply a cause-and-effect relationship, as seen in formal logic or causal logic models used to structure knowledge. It involves using logic to explain or predict events by identifying the underlying causes, often through mechanisms like counterfactual reasoning or formal argument structures, though it's distinct from physical causation, which involves the transfer of force and temporal relationships.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=logical+causation


NO CAUSATION WITHOUT INTENTION
Ignore the First Cause (intentional actor) off the table

Yes, the whole distinction between events that are intentional versus those that are not seems to complicate all of the discussions I’ve looked at. As I noted earlier, that’s why I avoided the whole subject of human causation. That doesn’t mean none of the issues discussed in this thread is relevant. — T Clark

Yes, Causation without Intent is what we call Accident. And the distinction is crucial in philosophy & science, but typically taken for granted. Unfortunately, Quantum Physics*1 has undermined the simple Certainty of Newton's physics/metaphysics, in which all events were intentionally caused by God. When you take God or Logos (reason ; intent) out of the equation things quickly get messy : like a half-alive cat in a box*2.

In philosophical discussions, Logical (directional) Causation in macro space-time seems to be implicit (intuitive) for "humans" in the word "cause". If not, an alternative meaning should be clearly indicated. Otherwise, the thread would quickly come unspooled . . . . as it so often does. :wink:


PS___ In college, we did an exercise called Design by Accident. Participants typically saw logical order (Form) in patterns that resulted from intentional randomness, such as spilling ink or pick-up-sticks. We seem to be designed by evolution to conceive order even in perceived disorder, and to infer causation even in the absence of evidence of intention.


*1. Quantum Causality :
In essence, quantum causality is about exploring what happens to cause and effect when we apply the principles of quantum mechanics to the very fabric of spacetime, leading to a more flexible and potentially counterintuitive view of causal relationships
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=quantum+causation

*2. IS THE CAT DEAD OR ALIVE OR BOTH?
Superposition or reposed position

From the fundamental definition of a system, it is possible to identify seven fundamental classes of systems:

Class 1 - with foundational existence
Class 2 - capable of decision-making
Class 3 - capable of survival
Class 4 - capable of communicating
Class 5 - capable of reasoning
Class 6 - capable of creating
Class 7 - capable of abstraction — Pieter R van Wyk

As I mentioned above, taken together, these characteristics of systems seem to add-up to a Creator God as the System-of-all-systems. Hence our space-time world is a sub-system of the Set-of-all-sets. In the abstract, this list could apply to A> the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, or B> Hindu Brahman, or C> Spinoza's deus sive natura. Was that your intention? :smile:

1, Fundamental, non-temporal, non-contingent, self-existent
2. Election : ability to choose from alternatives
3. Eternal existence
4. Divine revelation, manifestation
5. Logos, rational Form
6. Creative & Causal
7. Generalizing universals from specifics : Ideas from Reals and vice-versa?
#. And the System rested on the seventh class . . . . .

OK. Now we have narrowed-down the kind of Systems this thread is about. — Gnomon
I am not sure what you are trying to say here:
When you refer to "kind of systems", are you referring to my, defined, classes of systems or something else?
I do not know what you mean, exactly, by a "sub-system"?
It just might be interesting to view the full canvas. — Pieter R van Wyk

A. By "kind of system" I mean an organization*1 with a particular logical-or-physical, structure-or-function-or-purpose, that can be distinguished from an ordered pattern with a different structure or purpose.
B. All I know about your "defined classes of systems" is that it sounds like a definition of God, or G*D as I like to spell it.
C. By "sub-system" I mean an organization or structure that is a part, or sub-set, of a larger or more comprehensive system of a similar type or kind : e.g. solar system is a sub-system of cosmos.

By "narrowed-down" I meant, that you have finally given me enough information to begin to understand what you mean by "system". But I'm still not sure how you interpret & apply that notion to a philosophical worldview. I won't take the time to "view the full canvas" until I'm convinced it will be worth the time invested. Meanwhile, we tip-toe around the margins of Systems as a universal concept.

For my own philosophical purposes, my current understanding of world Systems is amenable to Jan Smuts' concept of Holism*2. It's simple, but universal. He applied it specifically to biological Evolution. But it has since been used to explain a variety of scientific & philosophical questions : complexity, causation, organization, information, computation, communication, organism, ideology, theology, etc. :smile:

*1. Organization :
In a scientific context, organization refers to the structured and hierarchical arrangement of components within systems, particularly living organisms, where parts are organized into increasingly complex levels (e.g., atoms to molecules to cells) to perform specific functions essential for life. This arrangement is a fundamental characteristic of life and is studied in various scientific fields, including biology, where it describes the hierarchy of life from molecules to ecosystems, and organizational science, which examines the structures, processes, and behaviors of groups and entities
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=science+organization+definition

*2. Holism is the interdisciplinary idea that systems possess properties as wholes apart from the properties of their component parts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holism

↪Gnomon
In Western metaphysics, ‘creation’ has a specific status, reserved for the Creator (‘creature’ meaning ‘created being’). It is of course used more broadly nowadays, for all manner of creative work, but it still retains some overtones, in the philosophical context. But I’m not going to retroactively update it. Besides, ‘mind-constructed world’ just doesn’t have a ring to it. — Wayfarer

Speaking of the distinction between a Created vs Constructed world, Dan Brown's new mystery/thriller, Secret of Secrets --- I'm almost to the halfway point --- hinges on the competition between Materialistic and Noetic worldviews.

The noetic scientist is publishing a non-fiction non-popular book, asserting that Consciousness is not "created" by the brain, but is a signal received from some external Mind Field. Hence the physical "real" world is actually a model constructed from bits of data transmitted from the noumenal World Mind, and beamed into the brain. For some as-yet-unstated reason, the evildoers seem existentially threatened by an abstruse philosophical theory.

Or, at least that's my personal construct from superficial knowledge of Noetic theory. How does the notion of brain-as-reciever-instead-of-sender fit with the creator/creation topic of this thread? If you think it's off-topic, I may start a new thread. Or you can, if you are more familiar with Noetics. :smile:

all systems are physical systems, but there exist systems with the capability of abstraction.
Moreover, this classification provides a theory of evolution sans any tautologies. — Pieter R van Wyk

OK. Now we have narrowed-down the kind of Systems this thread is about. As far as we know, only physical biological beings*1 are capable of abstracting Ideas from concrete Reality. And only one of those physical sub-Systems has the capability to communicate their intangible ideas in the form of meaningful symbols : e.g. auditory or visual Words. The jury is still out on parrots & dolphins, which apparently can produce two-way communication to some degree. Even dogs can understand a few words of spoken language, but can't reciprocate except via body language, including barking and button-pushing .

Given that the ability to abstract ideas has evolved on at least one planet, what does that fact imply about Evolution in general? Were living & thinking & abstracting entities inevitable, perhaps because that was the Purpose of the evolutionary System from its Big Bang beginning? Was the System programmed or designed to produce Thinking Beings?

Are you implying that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is based on Tautologies or Axioms? For example "survival of the fittest" is a generalized definition from limited observations. And it only specifies reproductive success, not technological prowess, such as that of the world's most successful species of idea abstractors : homo sapiens. Do you have a non-tautological Theory of Evolution, that might explain how & why immaterial Abstract Ideas could emerge from a physical thermodynamic system? Is homo technologicus the acme of abstract evolution, or just an incomplete intermediate solution to the ultimate purpose of the cosmic developmental System? :smile:


*1. Abstract Thinkers :
Animals such as primates (including chimpanzees and baboons), dolphins, pigs, dogs, crows, and even ducklings and chicks have shown evidence of abstract thought.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=animals+capable+of+abstract+thinking

A system consist of components (things that are) and the interactions between these components (things that happen) contributing to a single unique purpose. p27, p135 — Pieter R van Wyk

Now we're getting somewhere : a definition of "System" that may be relevant to the covert purpose of this thread. Example : A System is a collection of things designed for a specific purpose or function*1. Question : designed (created?) by Accident or Intention? Or, in the case of universals*2, not designed, nor contingent, but eternal & self-existent, like Plato's Form. But is the Purpose/Function top-down intentional, or bottom-up inferred, or both? :chin:

Note --- I've learned a new mathematical or logical symbol ":=" for the purposes of this work, the word to the left is stipulated to mean the description on the right.

There is one, and only one, system that is not a component of any other system. Named the Universal system — Pieter R van Wyk

Traditionally, "The Universal System" has been labeled God, or some variation like Brahman (ultimate, unchanging, and infinite reality) . But is that unique set-of-all-things Real (tangible) or Ideal (conceptual) ; Quanta or Qualia ; Immanent or Transcendent? Spinoza and Smuts*3 identified the "one and only one" System with the immanent Universe or Nature. But the Big Bang theory has raised the question of some prior or higher Set or System. Alas, Multiverse & Many Worlds systems seem to water-down the notion of uniqueness. :smile:


*1. A "whole system" refers to an entire, self-contained entity consisting of numerous interconnected components and their relationships, working together to achieve a specific purpose or function. It emphasizes the totality of the system, including its structure, behavior, interactions, and the environment in which it operates. The concept is central to systems thinking and highlights that changes to one part of the system can have cascading effects on all other parts.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=definition+of+whole+system

*2. In philosophy, universals are repeatable characteristics or qualities that can be shared by many different particular things, such as the "greenness" of two green apples or the "humanity" shared by all people. The philosophical problem of universals questions whether these abstract universals actually exist in reality, and if so, how they exist and relate to the particular objects that embody them. Key positions include realism (universals exist independently), nominalism (universals are just names or concepts), and conceptualism (universals are concepts in the mind).
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=philosophy+universals

*3. Holism is the philosophical idea, coined by Jan Smuts in his 1926 book Holism and Evolution, that the universe has a fundamental tendency to form wholes that are more than the sum of their parts through a process of creative evolution. This concept describes an inherent, unifying, and organizing activity in nature that drives the emergence of increasingly complex structures, from molecules to minds, in a progressive series of "wholes".
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=smuts+holism+def

In the OP and subsequent posts, I think I’ve made it reasonably clear what I’m talking about when I say “causality.” — T Clark

Unfortunately, what you are talking about may be clear in your own mind, but it's not clear to my simple mind. That's why I asked categorical questions in my previous post. Philosophical dialogues typically begin with controversial assertions, and followed with definitions & examples to support some generalization that is not generally accepted.

I'm trying to see if you are simply denying absolute Determinism, or denying God, or making the more radical assertion of a completely In-Determinate wandering-in-state-space universe. The link below*1 may offer a clue to your position, that I didn't find in the OP. :smile:


*1. Causality is an illogical (illusory) concept within a rigorously deterministic universe.
Sean Carroll:
"The idea that'cause and effect' isn’t fundamental to the workings of the universe hasn’t spread as widely as it should have, despite the efforts of smart people such as Bertrand Russell. In this first section of the book, I sketch how we moved from a picture of the universe animated by causes and reasons to one that obeys patterns, without the need for anything to cause it or sustain it."
https://www.reddit.com/r/freewill/comments/1huxxlr/causality_is_an_illogical_illusory_concept_within/
Note --- What's the difference between a universe that obeys Logical Laws, and one that "obeys Patterns"? Who or what determined the predictable patterns that Newton deduced, and mathematized, from his observations of the solar system? Another word for Pattern is "Design".

This will depend on a possible purpose, not so? In my younger days I did some mountaineering, we used stacked rocks (like your picture) to mark a road, thus it was part of a navigation system. Your picture though, looks like a piece of art (A deliberate transformation of the feelings and emotions of the artist [the life form making the art], into a physical form. p96) — Pieter R van Wyk

So, you agree that the seemingly haphazard stack of irregularly shaped rocks is a "system", in the sense that it was produced, not by Nature, nor by mountain goats, but by a sentient agent with a future purpose in mind : navigation aid or abstract art???

Hence, a "System" can be defined as the deliberately organized result of imagination or intention? That would imply some ultimate intent, not an accident, that arranged a collection of rocky & gassy planets into a life-bearing arrangement of factors necessary for animation to emerge. Yes? :smile:

PS___ Astrobiologists have produced theories of necessities for extra-solar life to emerge. But, for most, divine or design Intention is not one of the essential requirements for a Living habitat or System to coalesce from random patterns of stars & planets .

OK, how would you describe "changes in energy", while avoiding the notion of Causation? — Gnomon
In the OP I've given specific examples of situations where changes take place but it is not useful to use the term "causality." Many people here have disagreed with my characterization. — T Clark

As with many, if not most, disagreements on this forum, the controversy hinges on the definition of key terms. For example, Aristotle's Four Causes include A> mechanistic sequences that show no local signs of intention (Material cause), and B> before/after relationships that are attributed, by scientists, to inputs of energy (Efficient cause), plus C> what exists/happens by definition (Formal cause) : it just is what it is. But perhaps the most contentious, although common, kind of Cause is D> the result of some agent's Intention/Reason (Final cause). Are you denying all of those kinds of Causation, or just one or two?

I can agree that Mechanical progressions may seem to be "uncaused", in that the next step merely follows the prior, with no apparent reason. Unless you zoom-out to look for the First or Final Cause of the system as a whole. In the case of a mechanical clock, the First Cause is the design of the spring & gear mechanism, and the Final is the desire or intention to keep track of the passage of Time.

However, as far as we know, almost all physical Changes result from Energy inputs or outputs. Some energetic transformations cannot be traced to any agent, other than Nature. So I suppose you could call that event/happening Change Without Cause*1. But scientists & philosophers tend to assume Universal Causation as an axiom, despite the rare exceptions.

The best known case of physical Change without any knowable prior Cause or Determination occurs on the quantum scale of reality*2. Which suggests that Reality may be fundamentally Random. And yet, few scientists or philosophers accept that Chance or Fate, makes rational understanding impossible. They just admit that some outlier Causes, on the periphery of perception, are not inferable due to the incompleteness or ambiguity of the evidence.

Since I can't refute the indeterminate events involving quantum "wave/particles", I must admit that our world seems to have an undercurrent of Randomness. But that is the exception, not the rule. Is your argument "against Cause" limited to events on the margins of human cognizance, or is it generalizable to "against God" (the First Cause)? :smile:


*1. A "change without cause" philosophy explores whether effects can exist without causes, a concept challenged by the principle of universal causation but also suggested by phenomena like radioactive decay and certain quantum events. While classical philosophy upholds strict causality, modern science and philosophy acknowledge the possibility of uncaused events, influencing views on free will and the nature of randomness. Philosophers like Zhuangzi have also described spontaneous, non-coercive change that aligns with this idea by respecting the inherent nature and context of things rather than imposing a cause
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=change+without+cause+philosophy


*2. "Acausal Quantum event " refers to quantum phenomena or theories where events lack a conventional, predictable cause, challenging the classical understanding of cause-and-effect. This doesn't mean there's no reason for an event, but rather that the cause isn't known or doesn't exist, as in the random timing of radioactive decay. More recently, "quantum acausal" also describes experiments that show events can occur in an indefinite causal order, where the sequence of cause and effect is uncertain, as if both "A causes B" and "B causes A" are happening simultaneously
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=quantum+acausal

We speak of the solar system.
We {you} cannot agree on what, exactly, is a system.
We {?} make the absurd postulate that one planet could be removed from the solar system.
This could tell us whether the solar system is in fact a system. — Pieter R van Wyk

Perhaps, to retain an air of mystery, you have avoided defining the key term in your thread*1. But you seem to have in mind a simplistic concept of a system : like the game Jenga, where players try to avoid removing the essential part of a stack of static wooden blocks. That's a simple gravitation system.

The solar system though is a complex and dynamic system of bodies moving in space, within a larger system of galaxies. It's not likely to fall apart if one planet was destroyed by an extra-solar asteroid. Who has ever made such an "absurd postulate"? Various theories have attempted to explain the asteroid belt as the debris from a collision that "removed one planet from the system". But nobody postulated that the Sol-dominated system itself would fall apart and fly off into space. There is a mysterious organizing force that holds the system together.

One problem with the solar system example is "where do you draw the line" : the boundary between planetary system and inter-stellar space? The other issue is "what makes a bunch of blobs arrayed around a medium yellow star into a system worthy of a name"? Why not include all the rest of the Milky Way galaxy in your system? What is the "function" of our local system that makes it unique for Earth-bound observers? Could it be that the "purpose" of a planet in the habitable zone is to provide a habitat for humans? If not Earth, perhaps an extra-solar planetoid could serve the purpose. In modern evolutionary theory, the solar system as-a-whole functions as a life-friendly gravitational system, allowing biological stuff to emerge.

Systems are like logical Sets*2 : there are sets within sets within sets : a nested set hierarchy. But the set is simply a definition . . . created by a human mind. So you can include as many elements (parts) as you like. If you remove one keystone element, that set may vanish and become a member of a larger set.

So, you are correct that there is no such thing as a System. It's just an idea, not an object : a definition, not a ding an sich ; an organization, not a mess.. :smile:

*1. Philosophical Systems :
To determine what is part of a system, you must first define its purpose and boundaries, and then identify the interacting elements, interconnections, and the system's environment that together produce a unified whole. The process involves a self-determined definition of the system's scope, focusing on the parts essential for fulfilling its function rather than the entire universe of possibilities.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+to+determine+what+is+a+part+of+a+system

*2. Logical Sets :
In logic and mathematics, a set is a well-defined collection of distinct objects (called elements or members) that are thought of as a whole. Set logic refers to the use of logical operations within set theory, where basic logical connectives like "and" correspond to set operations such as intersection, while the study of sets itself is a foundational branch of mathematics for precise definitions.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=set+logic+definition

IS THIS AN ORGANIZED SYSTEM OR A DISORGANIZED CHAOS?
What is the purpose of stacked rocks?

the primary Cause for physical science is Energy. — Gnomon
That doesn’t make sense to me.All there is is energy. Matter is energy. It’s changes in energy that need a causal description. — T Clark

OK, how would you describe "changes in energy", while avoiding the notion of Causation? Einstein noted that Energy can be mathematically transformed into Mass/Matter (E=MC^2). But what is the Cause of that form-change? Is it just random fluctuations of Quantum Fields? Hence acausal? Or is it scientists just playing around : smashing atoms with a Cyclotron, to see what pops out?

If "all there is is energy", then what causes the hypothetical universal Quantum Field to fluctuate, to change, to evolve? Why not just be? If "energy is all there is", does that mean the god-like power to cause positive (non-random) change (evolution) is eternal, existing prior to the Big Bang? Could that eternal field of Energy be forever creating new worlds, as in the Multiverse hypothesis?

Scientists don't seem to know the details of how the Energy transformations*1 occur. But energy transformations are essential to the concept of Causation*2 in physical change. In this thread though, I'm talking about Causation as a philosophical concept. If you want to explore that, we can get into it. But I warn you, it involves Metaphysics. If you don't like the AI summaries below, just click on the link and you can go to the human-authored sources of information. :smile:


*1. Energy Transformation :
Through all of these transformation chains, the potential energy stored at the time of the Big Bang is later released by intermediate events, sometimes being stored in several different ways for long periods between releases, as more active energy. All of these events involve the conversion of one kind of energy into others, including heat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_transformation
Note --- Potential Energy has no physical properties, because it's an ideal concept, not a real thing.

*2. Energy causation :
describes how one event causes another by the transfer or transformation of energy, where the initial energy is the source of the effect.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=energy+causation
Note --- If you trace the transformations of energy back far enough, you will bump into the "Initial Energy" that Aristotle called "First Cause".

*3. The Metaphysics of Causation :
Metaphysical causality concerns the fundamental nature of the causal relationship itself, investigating what causes and effects are, what the causal relation is, and how it works, rather than simply identifying cause-and-effect pairs. It explores different ways of understanding this link, such as through regularities between events, counterfactual dependence (if not for the cause, the effect wouldn't occur), causal powers, mechanisms, or interventions. Philosophers also distinguish between metaphysical causation, where the connection doesn't rely on natural laws, and nomological causation, where it does.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=the+metaphysics+of+causation
Note --- Causation is a relationship, not an object. Nomological Causation is a philosophical notion, not a physical thing. Nomological : "principles, such as laws of nature, that are neither logically necessary nor theoretically explicable, but are simply taken as true." ___Oxford Dictionary

My conclusion - identifying one element as the cause of another depends on where you look. — T Clark

Yes. intermediate causes*4 are arbitrary & subjective. That's why Aristotle coined the term First Cause, which is a logical necessity, like the final number on the number line, not a physical object. The Big Bang is one kind of First Cause, but it didn't put to rest philosophical conjectures about prior causes. Divine Creation is another kind of Cause. So, Causation is a useful concept for Science and Philosophy, but as you noted, it is unavoidable, metaphysical, and non-empirical. So, we can debate til the cows come home. :joke:


*4. What is the Ultimate Cause? :
The idea that "energy is causal" can be understood in two primary ways: as a philosophical concept suggesting causation is the flow or transfer of energy, and in a more practical sense where energy consumption has a measurable causal impact on economic growth and other systems, though the direction and nature of this causality can be complex and context-dependent.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=energy+is+causal
Note --- Exchanges of Energy are merely intermediate causes. So, in order to understand Causation philosophically, you need to go back to the origin of the causal chain of events*5. Unfortunately, the Big Bang begs the question of where the Causal Force & Natural Laws --- that explain the subsequent evolution of the world, from simplicity to complexity --- originated.

*5. An ultimate cause is a deep, underlying reason or a historical, evolutionary factor that explains why something exists or occurs, answering the "why" question in terms of its adaptive significance and long-term origins.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=ultimate+cause+definition

Argh! My last word was a mistake. I meant to say:
Are you saying actual information is information that is being processed? If it is not being processed, it is potential information? — Patterner

Yes. For example, if a message-in-a-bottle is sent but never read, the information remains potential, not actual. This works just like Energy. If a bullet is fired, but never hits its target, the Kinetic energy is "stored" in the form of Momentum. So the energy remains in limbo as Potential, in the sense that it is never Actualized as impact transfer of energy to a target. Of course, this is an imperfect analogy, since a bullet in motion almost always hits some object to which it transfers its inertial energy, causing material change . . . . except perhaps in outer space. :wink:

So information that had to be created (as opposed to the information in a book) is never even interpreted. — Patterner

Like the bullet in outer space, un-interpreted Information remains in its Potential state, in the form of "raw data". You can think of data as meaningless mathematical information, until someone interprets the code into human meaning. :smile:

PS___ Energy can be temporarily stored in matter, like a battery, as Potential Energy. In which case, you could say that the Energy/Information exists as a "Substance". More properly though, as ratios between positive & negative ions.


"Uninterpreted" Information is raw data or primary source material that has not yet been analyzed, explained, or given meaning; it remains in its original, unaltered form before any analysis, commentary, or added understanding has been applied. Examples include eyewitness testimony, original documents like letters and manuscripts, raw research data, and direct quotes before a researcher or person explains them
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=information+uninterpreted

As I've often said here, "causality" is a metaphysical concept, by which I mean it represents a point of view, a perspective, not a fact. — T Clark

Yes. That's why we debate various kinds of Causes on this forum. For example, the primary Cause for physical science is Energy. Which can be defined tautologically (it is what it does), but can't be defined physically or materially (what it's made of). A Cause is some invisible force that has a knowable Effect.

So, the OP is true : Cause is not a thing in itself ; It's a relationship between before & after some physical or metaphysical (mental) change. Causation is doing, not being. It's a verb, not a noun. :smile:

↪Gnomon
Are you saying actual information is information that is being processed? If it is not being processed, it is potential energy? — Patterner

Something like that. When Shannon produced his definition of Information as computer Data, I assume he had no idea that his novel equation of Information and math (1s & 0s ; relations ; ratios) or Information and Entropy (active ; passive) would eventually lead scientists to view Energy from a similar perspective. They are not the same thing*1, but different forms of a more fundamental causal force that I call EnFormAction*2.

So, I would rephrase to say, when information of a system is not being actively processed, its form or state is Potential instead of Actual. For example, there is lots of information in your brain, that you are not currently aware of or thinking of. But it's available to activate, when needed. How it's stored is not completely understood.

I see a lot of Philosophical Potential in this novel notion of Information. But some on this forum think I'm talking about ghosts & spirits & spooky stuff. This new concept of Information is not a material substance (hyle ; wood), but more like Aristotle's essential substance (morph ; form ; pattern). :smile:


*1. No, energy and information are not the same thing, though they are deeply connected. Information requires energy to be stored in a physical system, and the process of changing information requires energy and increases entropy, according to the Landauer limit. While information cannot exist without energy to form a physical medium, energy itself can exist without any information.
Energy is Physical, Information is Abstract:
Energy is a physical quantity that represents the capacity to do work. Information, on the other hand, is an abstract concept representing data or concepts transmitted through a medium.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=energy+and+information
Note --- Energy is still the power to cause physical change. But information is the power to cause metaphysical change : to convey ideas from one mind to another.


*2. Active Information, Meaning & Form :
Information is Physical and Metaphysical
"Elevate information to the level of a new physical concept, one that can be placed alongside Matter and Energy" . . . .
Peat says “I suggest that Information is the final element in a triad—information is that which gives form to energy”.

*3.Information is stored in the brain by changing and strengthening connections, or synapses, between neurons.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=information+in+brain+how+stored
Note --- Information is essentially patterns of relationships (interconnections) between loci

Ironically, that swampy quicksand logic allows people of Faith to claim that their metaphysical "reasons" & divine revelations are just as valid as a scientist's physical-empirical Facts & Faxioms. — Gnomon
I don't see how the kinds of issues I'm talking about have anything to do with religion. — T Clark

Please note that, in the last paragraph, I referred to metaphysical*1 (-isms), that are not necessarily religions. For example, on this forum, we often find contentious arguments about metaphysical beliefs, such as Realism vs Idealism, Materialism vs Spiritualism, or Scientism vs Philosophy.

Those are what I facetiously call "Faith communities" because their worldviews are based on non-empirical Axioms. As Hume noted, specific Evidence & formal Logic may support the general (universal) conclusions, but do not prove them. The degree of Faith may be measured in terms of Bayesian Belief*2. :smile:


*1. Yes, materialism is a metaphysical theory because it makes a fundamental claim about the nature of reality: that everything that exists is ultimately physical
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=materialism+is+metaphysical

*2. Bayesian belief refers to the degree of certainty about the truth of a proposition, treated as a probability that is updated by new evidence using Bayes' Theorem.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=bayesian+belief

Information in a dead organism has been transformed into Entropy (dissipated Energy). — Gnomon
Doesn't the fact that people have sequenced Neanderthal DNA, among other groups, say it is still information? — Patterner

Oh yes. Just like fossilized bones, ancient DNA can provide clues to modern forms. But the cavemen are still dead and dissipated. Whatever information remains is in the fossilized patterns of preserved tissues. For example, paleontologists can estimate the size & shape of an absent Neander brain, by measuring the empty skull. As I said before, Information, like languages, comes in many forms. But the meaning must be interpreted by a living functioning brain. :smile:

PS___ In Neander DNA, the actual information is long gone, but some potential information remains. Like information in a book, the source of enforming (author) is absent, but those who can read the inert squiggles are able to extract meaning from patterns of non-living ink on paper.
For example, a AAA battery on a shelf has Potential for electrical current, but until a circuit is provided there is no Actual current. However, a scientist could analyze the chemistry of the battery, and estimate how much voltage is possible for future use. And that is useful information, despite being only Potential.

I acnowledge that the word 'created' might be a poor choice of words in the context. — Wayfarer

Was that controversial key-word a Freudian slip, or intentional challenge, to keep this thread going in circles for 70 pages? :wink:

Reality vs Ideality : Divine Creation vs Human Construct vs Cosmic Accident

As I've often said here, "causality" is a metaphysical concept, by which I mean it represents a point of view, a perspective, not a fact. As R.G. Collingwood might say, the Principle of Sufficient Reason - everything must have a reason or a cause - is an absolute presupposition, not a proposition. — T Clark

Yes. For philosophers "causality" is a metaphysical notion, whereas for physicists it's a practical principle, to aid in understanding how & why things happen. Traditionally, human Logic assumes, as an unproven axiom*1, that every action or event had a prior causal influence, and that causal action in the universe is an unbroken chain (conjunction) of physical cause/effect events. Except of course, for those who believe in metaphysical causes, such as divine intervention or random accidents (disjunction).

The title of this tread seems to imply that our common logical assumption of Causation is unscientific & non-empirical, as argued by Hume's dissection of Induction, Reduction, and Deduction. Which leaves open-to-negation such logical postulates as Universal Causation, and First Cause. Hence, the never-ending inconclusive threads on this forum. Where we heap up individual facts or beliefs, and try to make sense of them by means of the reasoning that Hume & Collingwood undermined with skeptical analysis. Ironically, that swampy quicksand logic allows people of Faith to claim that their metaphysical "reasons" & divine revelations are just as valid as a scientist's physical-empirical Facts & Faxioms.

So, where does that leave us public reasoners on a non-empirical (metaphysical) philosophical forum? Are the conjunctions in our reasoning so weak that none of our arguments will hang-together under the universal solvent of skepticism? Are our fundamental (self-evident) axioms only valid within a single isolated-but-united Faith community (-isms)? :cool:

*1. Logical Axioms :
Yes, axioms can be considered a type of presupposition, as they are foundational statements accepted as true without proof to serve as the starting point for reasoning within a specific system. While all axioms function as presuppositions, a key distinction is that an axiom is a presupposition that is considered self-evident or unquestionable within its context, whereas not all presuppositions are necessarily self-evident or accepted without controversy.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=are+axioms+presuppositions

Yes, it's always Information, but it comes in different Forms. — Gnomon
What is the form of there information in the DNA of a dead organism? What is the form of there information in a book that is sitting in a box in the basement? — Patterner

Those are good questions, in that they indicate ignorance of what Information is, essentially*1. Which could be a learning opportunity. Prior to Shannon, the definition of Information referred to "knowledge" (meaning ; facts) in a mind. Information is always a reference to some thing or event : Aboutness*2.

But since the 20th century that term has acquired much broader significance for Philosophy and Science. For example, astrobiologist Caleb Scharf's 2021 book is entitled The Ascent of Information. He asks "whether information itself may be the fundamental currency of the universe". And he coined the term "dataome" (from genome) : "the dataome is all of the non-genetic data we carry externally and internally". A related term is : "extended mind".

Besides the meaning-in-a-mind kind of Information, we now use the term Data in certain contexts. Scharf says "in that sense data corresponds to pieces of information. But real information is that data organized and assembled, and structured to provide meaning and context". And that's what Minds do. I'll cut to the meat here, and reveal that conscious mental Information is a recent innovation of evolution. Prior to the advent of Life & Mind, the power to transform was mainly what we now call Energy.

With that piece of information in mind, I'll answer your questions : A> Information in a dead organism has been transformed into Entropy (dissipated Energy). B> Information in a book is equivalent to Potential energy in a battery. It requires a conscious mind to complete the circuit of Meaning. Plato's transcendent Forms, are manifested in the immanent world as various Forms of Energy. And human Consciousness is one of those innumerable Patterns (forms) of In-Form-Action. :smile:


*1. Information is an abstract concept that refers to something which has the power to inform.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information
Note --- The term "power" has taken on a new significance since Information has recently been associated with causal Energy. A broader sense of Information is "the power to transform", to cause change, in both matter and mind.

*2. In philosophy, aboutness refers to the feature of mental states, linguistic expressions, or other meaningful items to be on, of, or concerning some subject matter, event, or state of affairs. This property, often used interchangeably with intentionality, is fundamental to distinguishing the mental from the physical and is a core concept in the philosophy of mind and language.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=aboutness+meaning+in+philosophy

PS___ Just as Energy is found in various forms --- chemical, electrical, kinetic, potential, etc --- Information is manifested in many forms : books, databases, conceptual, procedural, etc.

I don't understand what you're saying. Particularly "the verbal Information". I don't know if you're answering my question. Is the order of the bases in the DNA of a dead body, or written in a book that is sitting in a box in the basement, information?

I think it's always information. I don't think it only becomes information when it is being processed, or being interpreted by a mind. — Patterner

Yes, it's always Information, but it comes in different Forms. Just as Energy manifests as Chemical, Electrical, Kinetic, Thermal, Potential, etc. The form of "Information" most familiar before Shannon was metaphysical Meaning in a Mind. But, he stripped away the meaning, leaving only abstract 1s & 0s, that can be mechanically represented by electric valences (+/-).

By calling it a "Verb"*1, I was making a distinction between Shannon's Noun Information (data) and Whitehead's Process Information. Most people are only familiar with Shannon's engineering definition, equating meaningless Information with Entropy. But in the subsequent century, meaningful Information has been equated with Energy (negentropy).

This is cutting-edge information, that is not generally known, except among specialists, such as the Complexity scientists at Santa Fe Institute. But it's the key to my philosophical Enformationism thesis. :nerd:

PS___ Oooops! The footnotes are back. :wink:

*1. Information is :
Claude Shannon quantified Information not as useful ideas, but as a mathematical ratio between meaningful order (1) and meaningless disorder (0); between knowledge (1) and ignorance (0). So, that meaningful mind-stuff exists in the limbo-land of statistics, producing effects on reality while having no sensory physical properties. We know it exists ideally, only by detecting its effects in the real world.
# For humans, Information has the semantic quality of aboutness , that we interpret as meaning. In computer science though, Information is treated as meaningless, which makes its mathematical value more certain. It becomes meaningful only when a sentient Self interprets it as such.
# When spelled with an “I”, Information is a noun, referring to data & things. When spelled with an “E”, Enformation is a verb, referring to energy and processes.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

*2. Alfred North Whitehead did not develop a distinct field called "information theory" as it is understood today, but his philosophy of organism, with its emphasis on process, prehension, and interrelationship, can be understood as an alternative model for understanding information. He viewed reality as dynamic processes rather than static objects and proposed that information gains meaning through subjective experience and context, particularly through the recursive process of prehension, or feeling the past into the present occasion. This fundamentally differs from current information theory, which often focuses on discrete bits of data.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=a.n.+whitehead+information+theory

*3. Information is Energy :
An objective, dynamic and physically justified concept of information is elaborated starting from Shannon's concept of entropy and applied to information technology, artificial intelligence (consciousness) and thermodynamics. The justification of an information conservation theorem acquires practical significance in information technology, especially as it moves into the quantum realm (photonics/quantum computing).
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-658-40862-6

First of all, I suspect you are a hacker, because I have never seen Gnomon post without footnotes. :rofl: — Patterner

Ha! I'm not that clever with computer technology, but I can copy & paste. :nerd:

I think I disagree. I believe DNA is information. — Patterner

DNA is chemistry, and it is inert until it is read & implemented by a biological system. The information is encoded in the patterns of interrelationships.

Yes, it's like a tree falling in a forest : it doesn't make a protein unless there's RNA to read it, and ATP to power the change, and amino acids as raw material. So, the verbal Information (EnFormAction) of DNA is not static chemicals, but the active process of reading & implementing the code. :smile:

PS___ Look ma, no footnotes. :joke:

Thus, AI is incapable to understand my work. I am still hoping to find an "astute reader", capable of abstract thought and who subscribe to Leonardo da Vinci's dictum, "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using memory." — Pieter R van Wyk

Is anyone on this forum capable of understanding your work? Have you found an "astute reader" elsewhere? If so, how do they answer your challenge : "what is a system?" Has anyone found a "fatal error" in your reasoning?

I don't consider Google's AI Overview to be an authority, but it is a good sifting filter for combing through complex verbiage, abstruse terminology, and esoteric discourse, in order to provide a capsule summary for non-experts. And it provides links to human-authored sources, where abstruse abstractions may be defined in common language.

Your cryptic descriptions in this thread seem to convey what your non-system is not, but leaves undefined (nebulous) what it is. Apparently, whatever-it-is is not General Systems Theory, as defined by Bertalanffy, to distinguish Holism from Reductionism, and to broaden science's focus on isolated parts & sub-systems.

This thread has devolved to a sideline debate on whether "rocks have beliefs". Could you give us a dumbed-down hint, for us non-astute readers, of your ingenious definition of a System, to get us back on track? :smile:


*1. General Systems Theory :
Systems theory is an interdisciplinary field of study that views the world as a complex network of interconnected and interdependent parts, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It emphasizes how these components interact and influence each other within a larger system, providing a holistic perspective that contrasts with reductionist approaches. Originating in biology with figures like Ludwig von Bertalanffy, it has been applied to diverse fields such as psychology, sociology, ecology, and engineering to understand and address complex problems.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=general+systems+theory

*2. How can you determine what is part of a system?
first define the system's purpose and boundary, then identify its interrelated components (elements, interconnections, function) that, when working together, produce a whole greater than the sum of its parts. An essential component is one whose removal prevents the system from achieving its goals.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+to+determine+what+is+a+part+of+a+system
Note --- If the universe/cosmos is a System, what component is essential to its purpose? If the system has no function or purpose, is it actually a System? Is that your point?

Further still: information is not transmitted. Since there is nothing contained anywhere that passes from an interpreted to an interpreter, and since what we have are transcription effects (i.e. con-formation in-formation) there is no entity, no substance called information. — JuanZu

True. Information is a verb, not a noun, a process, not an object. It's what I like to call EnFormAction : the power to transform from Potential to Actual. Shannon's abstract Data has potential, but no actual meaning, until it is interpreted by a Mind. :smile:

My purpose is clearly stated in my question, nothing more, nothing less. And, it would seem, I got me an answer. — Pieter R van Wyk

Yes, on the face of it, describing reality with a single system does seem to be far fetched, perhaps even absurd. But then, this would depend on one's understanding of reality - an ambiguous notion it would seem - as well as one's understanding of a system - which is exactly the question contemplated by this discussion - also, it would seem, an ambiguous notion. — Pieter R van Wyk

To describe cosmic reality with a "single system" might require omniscience. But that hasn't stopped ambitious philosophers from trying*1, including yours truly. I get the impression that System Building is offensive --- arrogant, absurd, ambiguous --- to those for whom everything is relative, or for whom the universe is random instead of systematic & logical.

Most major religions have diagnosed a broken System, and offer some approach to repairing the break. Many are faith-based, with solutions only available to blindfolded believers. Others are methodical, such as Buddhism, offering a psychological technology for mind control. But even the Buddha admitted that ego-snuffing Enlightenment is a rare achievement. And resurrection & reincarnation merely postpone a final solution to some indefinite future heaven or nirvana. Some religions & philosophies blame the victims for their suffering, due to inherent weaknesses of human nature. In that case, the broken System is blamed on physicality instead of spirituality, the duality of Soul & Body.

Apparently, the answer you were searching for is that Philosophy does not have an answer to "What is a System". Seems you prefer to avoid Systems Thinking in favor of Categorical Philosophy*2, such as Kant's Imperative, or your own "Logic of Existence"*3. Is your theory a complete system, a moral law, or just another "ambiguous notion"? Is the answer "that there is no logical answer" : that Faith is the only answer? :smile:


*1. Philosophical system building is the creation of a comprehensive and coherent worldview that provides answers to major philosophical questions about reality, knowledge, morality, and existence. This approach involves connecting diverse ideas into a unified structure, drawing inspiration from figures like Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, and Whitehead. Systems philosophy also represents a modern philosophical approach that applies systems concepts to construct worldviews, emphasizing interconnectedness and emergent properties.

*2. "Categorical philosophy" most commonly refers to Immanuel Kant's concept of the categorical imperative, a universal moral law stating that one should act only according to principles that could rationally be willed as a universal law for everyone, and always treat humanity as an end in itself, never merely as a means to an end. This means that moral actions are binding absolutely, regardless of personal desires or goals, making them universal and obligatory for all rational beings
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=categorical+philosophy

*3. "How I Understand Things: The Logic of Existence"is a book that questions traditional philosophical and logical frameworks to explore how we perceive and understand existence, challenging the notion that logic can fully capture the nature of being. The work critiques classic systems like rationalism and phenomenology, arguing that their separation of mind and body, or their overemphasis on conceptualization, fails to grasp the pervasive reality of existence itself. Instead, it proposes that existence is signified by the verb "to be" within a judgment, rather than residing in the subject or predicate, and invites readers to re-examine their perceptions of knowledge and reality.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=How+I+Understand+Things.+The+Logic+of+Existence
Note --- Heidegger's system, Dasein, is interwoven instead of isolated.

Does philosophy have a definition of a system? The second question, ... or better, a general systems theory; seemed to be a bit premature for philosophy. — Pieter R van Wyk

Apparently, you didn't get a definition that suited your purposes. Perhaps, you should specify a philosophical problem or application to which you want to apply Systems Thinking*1*2. For me, Jan Smuts' definition of Holism in Evolution*3 can also be applied to various philosophical questions. :smile:

PS___ You quoted Gnomon to say that a System has "properties". But it might be more accurate, for philosophical purposes, to say that an Integrated Whole System has non-physical Qualities, such as Life and Mind.


*1. Systems thinking is a holistic approach to problem-solving that views issues as part of a larger, interconnected system, focusing on relationships, feedback loops, and patterns rather than isolated components.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=systems+thinking

*2. The philosophy of systems thinking is a holistic approach that views phenomena as interconnected systems, moving beyond isolated problems to understand underlying structures, feedback loops, and long-term, systemic consequences. It emphasizes the whole being greater than the sum of its parts and is rooted in biology, cybernetics, and ecology, aiming to create more effective, adaptive, and sustainable solutions by considering the entire web of relationships within a complex situation.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=philosophy+of+systems+thinking

*3. Holism :
Unfortunately, Holism is still controversial in Philosophy. That is primarily due to the practical and commercial success of reductive methods in the physical sciences. Methodological Reductionism attempts to understand a composite system by breaking it down into its component parts. And that approach works well for mechanical devices, but not so well for living things.
https://bothandblog8.enformationism.info/page33.html

I began reading Dan Brown's new novel. — Gnomon
Wow! You're on the ball; it only came out about a week ago. Has much about consciousness coming in from the outside. — PoeticUniverse

I don't have to believe in animated-clay Golems or Paranormal Activity, or Parapsychology, in order to enjoy Dan Brown's fiction. I read fiction, in part, not to escape from reality, but merely to vicariously experience experiences that are different from our mundane existence. So, if I saw a clay-monster on the street, I'd assume it was a Comic-Con costume.

Likewise, I don't have to believe in Consciousness as signals from outside the skull in order to consider the philosophical implications of such a state of affairs. The Bible, that I was raised to believe was the word of God, has stories of people receiving divine messages from Angels, Demons, and Deities. But I now consider those stories to be fictional, not actual.

Therefore, while I have given some thought to the notion of brains functioning as radio receivers of messages from God, or from a sentient cosmos ; all I can say at this point is that I remain skeptical. However, I am working on an alternative explanation for the Hard Problem, based on non-fiction Energy & Information*1. For now, I do not accept the currently popular theory of Panpsychism, but I have my own theory of Enformationism, that some might consider equally fringey. :wink:


*1. How Does the Brain Create Mind? :
The Mind is an imaginary model of brain functions
Kastrup’s alternative to ancient Materialism & Panpsychism is similar to the equally antiquated worldview of Idealism¹⁹. His updated version of the all-is-mind concept is labeled Analytic Idealism, which some have renamed Cosmopsychism.
https://bothandblog8.enformationism.info/page14.html

(See Dan Brown’s new book,
‘The Secret of Secrets’
For a similar investigation) — PoeticUniverse

I was reaching the end & epilogue of Glattfelder's book on Postmodern Paranormal Phenomena, when I began reading Dan Brown's new novel. To my surprise, he introduced the Golem of Prague, based on Jewish folktales, as a central character. And a major theme of the book seems to be Paranormal ESP, as investigated by a Noetic scientist. The real-world Institute for Noetic Sciences was founded by former astronaut Edgar Mitchell, to study Parapsychology, among other "fringe theories".

In his 2017 book, Origins, Brown also dealt with topics on the "fringe" between Philosophy and Science. The Futurist Ed Kirsch made a "discovery" that was said to challenge both Science and Religion : "If there is a divine force behind this universe, it is laughing hysterically at the religions we've created in an attempt to define it". But maybe that "force" would be sympathetic with the childish efforts of its own god-emulating upright-apes --- "poems being writ" --- to make sense our ever-changing world of contrasts & contradictions : of Angels & Demons.

Although some aspects of Kirsch's (Brown's) philosophy may not agree with my own Information-centric worldview, I found it generally compatible. For example, Robert Langdon was asked if he believed in God. He replied : " . . . . for me, the question of God lies in understanding the difference between codes and patterns. . . . . Codes, by definition, must carry information. They must do more than simply form a pattern --- codes must transmit data and convey meaning." :smile:


PS___ Regarding ultimate Origins, a sign on Langdon's Harvard classroom says :
"In my classroom, T > 0
For all inquiries where T = 0,
please visit the Religion Department."

If it's not likely that there's a separate realm of ideas. Or that the idea is exactly the same as the physical matter from which it arises. Then what is it's nature? — Jack2848

If a "separate realm" is a physical place in space, then of course that's not where Ideas abide. But our materialistic minds find it easier to imagine subjective objects of thought as-if they are material entities in space. For example, Plato describes Ideas as Patterns, which some may interpret as patterns of neuron connections in the brain : neural correlates of consciousness. Which raises the question about those interconnected nerve fibers : how do they know?

Anyway, I think the key to the Nature of Ideas is to view them as Abstractions from Concrete Reality, not in Reality. To abstract is to pull-out. But we're talking about extracting personal Meaning or Significance from arrangements of impersonal Matter. Instead, it may be helpful to think of the Patterns of information, that we call "Ideas", in terms of mathematical Relationships (ratios). But meaningful relationships are always About some real or ideal object of attention or intention.

Therefore, the nature of an Idea can be defined in terms of Patterns, Relationships, Abstractions, Aboutness*1, and so on. None of which exists as material objects in the Real world. So, an Idea is the opposite of a Real thing ; sort of like a mirror image. Our language is inherently materialistic though, so attempts to describe immaterial Abstractions, are necessarily negative : what it's not. :smile:


*1. Aboutness :
In philosophy, aboutness refers to the feature of mental states, linguistic expressions, or other meaningful items to be on, of, or concerning some subject matter, event, or state of affairs. This property, often used interchangeably with intentionality, is fundamental to distinguishing the mental from the physical and is a core concept in the philosophy of mind and language.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=aboutness+meaning+in+philosophy

But the most significant aspect was the awakening to the indescribable beauty of life itself, plants and trees seeming to possess a kind of luminous aliveness and perfection, and the sense that this sense of heightened awareness was reality itself. — Wayfarer

I get the impression that, compared to the "beauties" of the hallucinogenic*1 Psychedelic version of "reality itself", Glattfelder finds the sober view of human social Reality to be depressing. In the Epilogue to The Sapient Cosmos, he adds a "gloomy summary of the status quo". There, he lists a litany of what's wrong with the modern world ; not so much the natural world, but the un-natural un-spiritual environment created by the materialistic mind of technological humans.

He seems to weep for the loss of innocence of the babes in paradise (Genesis), after reaching the age of reason. As usual, that fall from grace is blamed on the serpent of Science, the "most cunning of all beasts". The snake-eyes of objectivity have given us wise apes mastery over the garden of nature, which we have raped & pillaged to gratify our own material desires.

Glattfelder seems to believe that humanity was better-off before science penetrated the "mystical veil" of reality. Before forces & energies replaced spirits & gods. Back when we were helpless animals kneeling before the mysterious powers of the non-self world. Back when we had to bend the knee to Nature, and to Nature's God.

His Syncretic Idealism seems to lean more toward Ontological Idealism (reality itself is mental) than to Epistemological Idealism (all knowledge is mental). But, although I find Idealism to be a good counterpoint to crass Realism, I've never been that romantically idealistic : more Pragmatic than Utopian. I was hopeful that the book would describe a sensible philosophy of Idealism to counter the crass Realism of Scientism. But if it requires dissociative drugs to open that door, I may have to remain benighted in Plato's cave for a while longer. :cool:


*1. Hallucinogenic drugs can cause hallucinations, which are sensations and images that seem real but aren't. People may hear, feel or see things that aren't really there. Some psychedelic drugs cause people to feel out of control or disconnected from their bodies and environment.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=on+and+off+psychedelic+drugs


LICK THE TOXIC TOAD TO FREE YOUR MIND
from its prison in mundane reality

As for the paranormal, I’m an open-minded sceptic. — Wayfarer

Me too! Glattfelder has a favorite term to describe the ambiguities & uncertainties of paranormal phenomena : Postmodern*1. He expresses some skepticism toward attempts to prove divine MIND by means of psychedelics and statistics*2. But he remains convinced that subjective Syncretic Idealism will soon be proven to be just as real, if not more, than the objective Reality of empirical Science*3*4.

Toward the end of the book, he quotes "philosophical entertainer" Alan Watts : "God also likes to play hide & seek, but because there is nothing outside God, it has no one but itself to play with."*5
I get the impression that Paranormal Research illuminates the dark corners of Consciousness with black light (statistical uncertainty), revealing formerly invisible things by re-emission of Bayesian belief. :smile:



*1. Trickster God? :
"In another display of postmodern mischief, reality appears to be teasing us by yet again hiding its true nature in a fog of inconclusiveness." {page 558}
Note --- After quoting a skeptical publication on telepathy, Glattfelder says "in this context, it is very hard to assess any claim for or against psi.

*2. "Yet again, psychedelics appear as a panacea for unorthodox knowledge access." {page 560}

*3. "It should be noted that the critics of syncretic idealism can only be taken seriously if they themselves have proficiency in modulating sentience."*4 {page 563}
Note --- Since he doesn't have much to say about Meditation, I suppose he means "modulating" brain functions by artificial means such as psychedelic drugs. Some paranormal researchers have indeed placed their bets on mind-soul-manifesting hallucinogenic substances (entheogens), to reveal the divinity hidden within the human entity.

*4. The phrase "modulating sentience" refers to the concept of influencing or altering the capacity to have subjective experiences, feelings, and sensations. This is a theoretical and speculative topic at the intersection of neuroscience, philosophy, and artificial intelligence (AI). While the total modulation of a biological organism's sentience remains beyond current capabilities, certain processes can alter the experience of consciousness.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=modulating+sentience

*5. "Quantum hide and seek" refers to both a metaphor for the elusive and uncertain behavior of quantum particles and a scientific concept used in steganography and quantum computing to hide information. Researchers use analogies of hide-and-seek to describe the nature of quantum systems, where particles can be in multiple places at once (superposition) until observed. /i]
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=quantum+hide+and+seek

Shanon's equations and the work following do not equate energy and information. — Banno

Shannon's work also does not equate Information with Meaning. He was a pragmatic engineer, not a philosopher or physicist. :smile:

More "veneer" for you to dig through.
Post-Shannon Information Theory
extends Claude Shannon's foundational work by addressing complex communication scenarios and information types that go beyond the classical framework. It focuses on goals like message identification, efficient use of shared resources such as common randomness, and the transmission of gestalt information. New theories are needed to understand information in diverse forms, including biological, social, and embodied contexts, which Shannon's theory was not designed to capture.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=post+shannon+information+theory

So your post was just made-up stuff. Ok. — Banno

Yes. Made-up by professional scientists, per the (obviously un-read) links in previous post. The technical details equating Information & Energy are over my head. But the general concept makes philosophical sense, in view of the Hard Problem of Consciousness : the otherwise unexplained emergence of Animation & Awareness. Perhaps, in a cosmos full of causal events, some natural force somehow transformed Energy & Matter into Life & Mind. Do you have a better theory for the advent of homo sapiens from eons of Thermodynamics? :joke:


Information as a basic property of the universe :
The second reason is that physicists invented accounting devices such as potential energy and entropy to explain the apparent disappearance of energy yet maintain the law of the conservation of energy. The proposed theory would consider that what is conserved is the sum of information and energy. The mathematical relationship between information and entropy is provided by the equation: I = (Io)e-S/k while the conversion of energy into information involves the relationship: 1 J/degree K = 10(23) bits (approximately) Acceptance of the theory would require paradigm shifts in a number of interrelated areas.
____T. Stonier, biotechnology, https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Thomas-Stonier-2
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8734520/
Note --- Physicists typically don't concern themselves with Life & Mind. Exception : Erwin Schrödinger's What is Life?

Nor does science equate information with energy. Bits are not joules. — Banno

My equation of Information with Energy was philosophical, not physical. Of course, meaningful Information is not measured in abstract joules. But energy is manifested in various ways : thermal, nuclear, chemical, sound, electricity, gravitation, kinetic, and potential. What they all have in common is ratios & inter-relationships*1.

Besides, Shannon defined Information in terms of Entropy, which is the inverse of Energy. But Energy is just one of many forms of what I call Generic (causal) Information : the power to Transform. Form = structure ; configuration. To Enform = bring together parts or combine to create (something). Hence, causal. Bits of Energy = quanta. Bits of Information = 1 or 0. Per OP, Most notable Events are physical transformations that are informational to conscious observers.

The intrinsic relationship between Energy and Information is not commonly known. But that emerging knowledge is on the leading edge of Physical science and Information science. And the latter is typically of more interest to Philosophy. A 2023 German science textbook*2 makes the relationship explicit. So, cutting edge Science does equate Information with Energy. Yet again, my interest in the Information/Energy relationship is not scientific (joules), but philosophical (intention)*3. :smile:


*1. How is information related to energy in physics?
Energy is the relationship between information regimes. That is, energy is manifested, at any level, between structures, processes and systems of information in all of its forms, and all entities in this universe is composed of information.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/22084/how-is-information-related-to-energy-in-physics

*2. Information is Energy :
An objective, dynamic and physically justified concept of information is elaborated starting from Shannon's concept of entropy and applied to information technology, artificial intelligence (consciousness) and thermodynamics.
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-658-40862-6

*3. Active Information, Meaning & Form :
Information is Physical and Metaphysical
https://bothandblog8.enformationism.info/page29.html

While I wouldn’t ever advocate the consumption of illegal substances I have no doubt that this particular class of substances do indeed open the doors of perception (insights which are of course impossible to communicate or even really remember on a conscious level). — Wayfarer

If or when "recreational" Marijuana becomes legal in my area, I may give it a try, just to see what I'm missing. Most of the other "street drugs" seem to do more harm than good. So, I'm not inclined to open those particular doors. My naive question is this : do the psycho-drugs actually or metaphorically open your perception to exotic realities or to warped hallucinations?

Glattfelder lists a wide variety of psychic experiences that are "real" to psychonauts : Synchronicity, ESP, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Clairvoyance, Mediumship, Presentiment, Psychic abilities, etc, that he deems worthy of scientific investigation. To explain their marginalization, he accuses scientists of have closed minds ; instead of having good reasons to avoid wasting time on subjective, non-empirical beliefs. And yet, in the last century, academically-trained Paranormal scientists & ghost-hunters have attempted to use empirical methods to study most of those “realities”, but their results have been generally un-reproducible*1, and have led to no practical uses, other than spooky entertainment*2. Therefore, like religious beliefs, such phantom “realities” seem to be a matter of faith, rather than science*3.

He says, "Although the boundaries of physical reality remain solid most of the time, there is not a priori reason radical modulations of sentience should not be able to puncture them momentarily". Does that assertion fit your understanding of the Mind Created World? He goes on to say, "this --- presumably, the fleeting temporariness of glimpses into other worlds --- would explain the difficulty in measuring and replicating such subtle and delicate effects accessible to the human mind only in moments of extreme modes of sentience." Besides, most of the plant-derived drugs may be natural, but their natural function is to kill or deter pests. So, using them to open doors to parallel worlds is un-natural. Can meditation open psychedelic doors?

He goes on to say, "this --- presumably, the fleeting temporariness of glimpses into other worlds --- would explain the difficulty in measuring and replicating such subtle and delicate effects accessible to the human mind only in moments of extreme modes of sentience." Quantum experiments are also fleeting and subject to biased interpretation, but they are reproducible and mathematical. On the other hand, most of the plant-derived psycho-drugs may be natural, but their natural function is to kill or deter pests. So, using insecticides and neuro-toxins to open doors to parallel worlds is literally un-natural. Is Buddhist meditation a safer option for timid psychonauts?

Apparently, the necessity for "radical modulations" --- that may lead to compulsive behavior and addiction, not to mention liver & heart disease & poisoning deaths --- makes other-worldly psycho-adventures just as dangerous as jungle & mountain explorations in mundane reality. Historically, ethyl alcohol (a mild neurotoxin) has been the most common & popular Affect Modulator. But it also modulates unacceptable social behaviors, that provoked wise King Solomon to denounce : "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" Proverbs 20:1. Since I am not, by nature, an adventurer, I leave exploits in other-worlds to highly-motivated others. From the sentient safety of my armchair, I know the “secret knowledge” of Amazon Indians --- e.g. ethnobotany --- only by second-hand National Geographic reports. :nerd:


*1. No, paranormal activity has not been scientifically proven;it is considered a pseudoscience by most scientists and academics because there is no conclusive empirical evidence to support its existence. Many experiences attributed to the paranormal have scientific explanations, such as psychological factors (like pareidolia or sleep paralysis), environmental factors (like infrasound or electromagnetic fields), or even misinterpretations of mundane phenomena.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=history+of+paranormal+research
Note --- "no conclusive evidence" is not for lack of trying. After centuries of optimistic efforts, Paranormal research is not mainstream, not necessarily due to prejudice, but to lack of corroboration and practical applications.

*2. Paranormal research originated in the 19th century with the spiritualism movement and the founding of the Society for Psychical Research (SPR) in 1882 to scientifically investigate spirits.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=history+of+paranormal+research

*3. “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.” ____ Nikola Tesla,
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/139502-the-day-science-begins-to-study-non-physical-phenomena-it-will
Note --- Maybe Elon Musk will invest some of his Tesla profits into Mental, instead of Martial (Mars), exploration of other worlds.

The aim of this essay is to make the case for a type of philosophical idealism, which posits mind as foundational to the nature of existence. Idealism is usually distinguished from physicalism — the view that the physical is fundamental — and the related philosophical naturalism, the view that only natural laws and forces, as depicted in the natural sciences, account for the universe. — Wayfarer

I'm still reading the voluminous 2025 book by James Glattfelder : The Sapient Cosmos, What a modern-day synthesis of science and philosophy teaches us about the emergence of information, consciousness, and meaning. It's an encyclopedia of current concepts of the Idealistic worldview. The book has chapters on cutting-edge science, such as Relativity, Quantum physics, Information theory, and Complexity science. But it also has chapters on Buddhism, Shamanic traditions, and Psychedelic adventures. So, the label for his worldview is Syncretic Idealism, which some interpret as "scientific spirituality"*1.
Syncretic : a combination, or mish-mash, of various schools of thought.

My personal background is mainly in the scientific aspects of the Mind Created World. But yours is much deeper in traditional Philosophy, including Buddhist insights on mind. So, the Shamanic & Psychedelic explorations in the mental world are exotic territory for me. Glattfelder calls those who experiment with mind-altering drugs : "Psychonauts". And he seems convinced that they are directly experiencing parallel realms of reality (Ideality???). He also thinks Near-Death experiences are previews of the afterlife. But those ideas about Idealism are hard for me to accept.

Today, I just read a quote from Richard Tarnas, historian and astrologer, that sounded reminiscent of your Mind-Created World : "The mind is not the passive reflector of an external world and its intrinsic order, but is active and creative in the process of perception and cognition. Reality is in some sense constructed by the mind, not simply perceived by it, and many such constructions are possible, none necessarily sovereign."

To me, that statement makes sense, insofar as Cognition is a construct, and Worldviews are personal models of reality. But the notion of opening The Doors of Perception*2 to alternate realities, that can be explored by "poisoning" the brain with serotonin agonists, that stimulate "non-ordinary mental states", and that skeptics call "hallucinations", does not compute.

In my profession as an architect, we built imaginary models of potential or possible buildings that do not exist yet in the real world. Although you may imagine yourself walking thru the atrium, the model is not intended to be interpreted as a hyper-real structure that you can inhabit with your disembodied Self/Soul.

Personally, my worldview is both Realistic (physical senses) and Idealistic (mental images)*3. But I'd like to hear from you, as the resident expert on traditional Idealism, what you think of Syncretic Idealism, as a synthesis of Science and Spirituality. Have you ever explored alternate Realities with a mind "cleansed" by entheogens? :smile:



*1. Syncretic idealism is a term used to explain the concept of scientific spirituality.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNukwNH0htX/

*2. Aldous Huxley :
Huxley used the phrase to describe his experiences with psychedelic drugs, which he felt temporarily "cleansed the doors of perception," allowing for a greater awareness of the world and human consciousness
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=doors+of+perception+quote

*3. Both/And Principle :
My coinage for the holistic principle of Complementarity, as illustrated in the Yin/Yang symbol. Opposing or contrasting concepts are always part of a greater whole. Conflicts between parts can be reconciled or harmonized by putting them into the context of a whole system.
# The Enformationism worldview entails the principles of Complementarity, Reciprocity & Holism, which are necessary to offset the negative effects of Fragmentation, Isolation & Reductionism. Analysis into parts is necessary for knowledge of the mechanics of the world, but synthesis of those parts into a whole system is required for the wisdom to integrate the self into the larger system. In a philosophical sense, all opposites in this world (e.g. space/time, good/evil) are ultimately reconciled in Enfernity (eternity & infinity).
# Conceptually, the BothAnd principle is similar to Einstein's theory of Relativity, in that what you see ─ what’s true for you ─ depends on your perspective, and your frame of reference; for example, subjective or objective, religious or scientific, reductive or holistic, pragmatic or romantic, conservative or liberal, earthbound or cosmic. Ultimate or absolute reality (ideality) doesn't change, but your conception of reality does. Opposing views are not right or wrong, but more or less accurate for a particular purpose.
# This principle is also similar to the concept of Superposition in sub-atomic physics. In this ambiguous state a particle has no fixed identity until “observed” by an outside system. For example, in a Quantum Computer, a Qubit has a value of all possible fractions between 1 & 0. Therefore, you could say that it is both 1 and 0.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page10.html

The mental event/experience has no physical properties, so it cannot be detected nor affect reality. We, however, observe a fascinating relationship between mental events and the part of reality that we form them in; for example, I can type my thoughts. You cannot possibly explain this within physicalism or any form of monism, since you need two substances at least, the experiencer and the object of experience, to explain the experience. — MoK

Sounds like you are talking about Language as Materialized Thought*1. Meta-physical*2 ideas in an intellectual mind can be Realized by exporting Ideal thoughts into the Real world by means of physical sound waves (speech), or material ink on paper (writing), or digitized data (electronic signals). And the recipient (experiencer) can interpret those coded messages back into meta-physical Meanings, by means of physical-to-mental decoding events in the brain.

Hence, the communication process necessarily requires "two substances" : both Matter (object) & Mind (subject) ; concrete Physical & abstract Metaphysical. The Message has intermediate material effects, but the final effect (meaning) is Ideal, not Real. However, my thesis explains the whole cosmic system of Matter/Mind, Physical/Metaphysical, Real/Ideal, in terms of a hypothetical ultimate Monism : EnFormAction*3, the power to transform Potential to Ideal to Real, and vice versa. :smile:


*1. The phrase "language materialized thought" refers to the complex philosophical and linguistic concept that language is the physical manifestation of abstract thought. It is the process by which internal ideas, emotions, and concepts are given an external, tangible form, such as speech or writing, that can be perceived and shared by others.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=language+materialized+thought

*2. Meta-physical : theoretical, theoretic, abstract, conceptual, mental, spiritual, intellectual : i.e. non-physical.

*3. EnFormAction : similar to Schopenhauer's Will (power, force, energy) and Representation (mental experience, idea, Form, law, rule) combined into the directed causation process we call cosmic Evolution : one rule to rule them all. It's a Substance only in the sense of an Essence.

It seems, then, that before something is observed, everything exists—but only as possibility (superposition). 
We live in a vast field of potential outcomes that only become definite once we observe them — Jan

Philosophical Metaphors & Analogies :
Berkeley solved the observer problem by reference to an omniscient onlooker, who sees everything everywhere all the time. Hence, from the omnipotential superposition of all possible states (infinite Possibilities) --- the statistical state of Potential --- God selects what is Actual & Real, . But that is not an empirical scientific space-time model of reality. It's magic!

For us non-omnipotent observers, everything appears to be Real & Definite on the macro scale. But when scientists intrude on the micro-scale of quantum phenomena, everything turns to mush. The observers expect to see material Particles, but instead they see a fog of Superposition. And yet, the Act of observation seems to condense the fog into discrete drops*1. The mental Act seems to have physical impact.

How the probing mind could have physical effects is the Observation Problem. Schrodinger's equation (wavefunction) calculates the statistical probabilities of quantum particle paths. During superposition, the probability is near infinite (indefinite). After probing particles*2 are shot into the fog though, the probability collapses (condenses) from undefined to 100% (definite). But was it the energetic impact of the probing particle, or the extracted knowledge of position & velocity that "shocks the fog" into raindrops of reality?

Before & After states are not physical things, but mathematical concepts. In any case, the curiosity (desire) to know that "fog veiled" information seems be the proximate Cause of the transformation from Potential to Actual. No curiosity, no probe, no collapse. So, which is it : mind or matter that dispelled the statistical fog? I doubt that Idealists & Realists will ever agree on the relation between Ideal Consciousness and Real Events. :smile:


*1. "Fog shock condensation" refers to the formation of visible fog or a condensation cloud resulting from rapid pressure and temperature changes in a gas or liquid, often caused by a shock wave, and is a phenomenon seen in high-speed flight and other extreme conditions where super-saturated vapor cools and condenses into liquid droplets.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=fog+shock+condensation

*2. A "quantum observation probe"is a specialized tool or technique used to gather information about a quantum system. Unlike classical probes, which can measure a system without affecting its properties, a quantum probe must contend with the fundamental quantum observer effect, where the act of measurement inevitably disturbs the system being observed. Researchers are developing methods to minimize this disturbance and enable new applications in quantum technology.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=quantum+observation+probe

I think it is the problem of the model, namely, physicalism, which is a monist model. You have this strange phenomenon, so-called the experience, that you cannot explain its existence. You also cannot explain how the experience can be causally efficacious, as well, given the fact that the experience is a mental event and the physical substances are causally closed. — MoK

Yes. In the worldviews of Materialism and Physicalism, subjective experience is indeed "strange" because scientists can't track an experience (feeling, sensation, image) back to its source via physical cause & effect evidence. A particular sensation (ouch!) seems to just emerge unbidden in the midst of the "flow" of energy from one material substrate to another. There is an inexplicable break in the causal chain, which Chalmers called the "Hard Problem" for empirical science.

The chain of causation transfers electro-chemical Energy from material object (neuron) to material object (synapse) until, suddenly & inexplicably, a new effect occurs that is neither electrical nor chemical, but personal. That novel effect is "strange" because it is subjective or holistic or systemic or metaphysical instead of objective or analytic or particular or physical. It's personal & subjective because no one else can feel what you feel. Or what a bat experiences.

Materialism and Physicalism are monistic*1 models in the sense that they deny any Substance other than Matter or Energy. My worldview is also a monism in that it postulates a single substance that is responsible for all physical and mental effects in the world. But in order to actualize, the monistic Singular Substance (Plato's abstract Form) must transform into Dual intermediate concrete sub-forms : Energy & Matter.

For example, Aristotle defined Substance (hylomorph) as a duality of "Matter" (pure potentiality) and "Form" (actuality). Obviously, his concept of Matter is different from the modern usage in that it is not-yet-real, it is un-formed (amorphous). And his Form (Intent) is the enformer (actualizer) of Potential. Only when ideal Potential is realized by some Cause does it become the real stuff we now call Matter. Ari's Matter is like malleable clay : formless until molded by the design intent of a sculptor. Hence, the Actualizer*2 of the sculpture is an idea (intention, image) in the mind of a man.

The Physicalist model is "causally closed" to immaterial substances like Ideas, Concepts, and Intentions. An Idealist model is open to the existence of non-empirical essences that transform into material substances. Bats are real, but nobody knows the inner essence of batness. :smile:



*1. Monism is the philosophical view that everything is ultimately a single kind of substance or reality, while physicalism is a specific type of monism that asserts this single reality is physical. In essence, a physicalist believes that all existing phenomena, including mental states, can be explained in terms of physical processes and matter, making the physical the only fundamental substance in the universe.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=monism+physicalism

*2. AMORPHOUS CLAY PRIOR TO ACTUALIZATION
by input of mental intention and manual energy