That was an awesome explanation of our responsibility. May I ask where and when you got your education? Are there any books you recommend?

I have a copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference explaining the teachers' role in making good citizens, patriotic citizens, and the Democracy Series of grade school text books written when we began mobilizing for the second world war. Before education for technology the priority purpose of education was defending democracy in the classroom, so the students could make us a strong democracy, as Thomas Jefferson said education must do, and as you explained our need to be educated and responsible.

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America. — Vera Mont

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America. — Vera Mont

Where is the break in my explanation that is a problem? I did not mention how Plato and Aristotle and Greek dualism, in general, influenced the church. Should I start back there or is it okay to start with Scholasticism which was built on Plato and Aristotle? Do you think Europe getting access to the Chinese technology of making paper and printing affected the general consciousness of who has authority and what makes authority legitimate? I don't know how to respond because I don't know where you see a problem in the sequence of events.

Nothing. No European nation in the 15th to 17th century had any qualms about subjugating peoples who were less well armed than they were.
It's not about Reason. It's about profit vs. conscience.
The Quakers saw this quite clearly... I wonder why all those sophisticated, educated, bewigged and worldly gentlemen did not. — Vera Mont

The Age of Enlightenment is about very different reasoning. How good is your knowledge of history? The Age of Enlightenment follows Scholasticism. The change happened very slowly and you need this information for your arguments. If you can, imagine yourself as a serf with no education except maybe to learn a trade and of course learn some of what the Bible says about demons and angels and obeying God and then think through what is to follow. All you know about the world is what you have seen in your lifetime and it is unlikely you got more than ten miles from where you began life. You as a serf are not part of this change but it is beginning to happen.

Scholasticism was a medieval school of philosophy that employed a critical organic method of philosophical analysis predicated upon the Aristotelian 10 Categories. Christian scholasticism emerged within the monastic schools that translated scholastic Judeo—Islamic philosophies, and thereby "rediscovered" the collected works of Aristotle. Endeavoring to harmonize his metaphysics and its account of a prime mover with the Latin Catholic dogmatic trinitarian theology, these monastic schools became the basis of the earliest European medieval universities, and scholasticism dominated education in Europe from about 1100 to 1700.[1] The rise of scholasticism was closely associated with these schools that flourished in Italy, France, Portugal, Spain and England.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism — Wikipedia

Now OMG!:gasp: The whole world is turned upside down! No longer is the church the only authority! No longer is everything controlled by a God! And those Quakers you mentioned were led by men who read the classics and communicate with each other across national boundaries. This is not so for all Protestant denominations but thanks to the Muslim trade routes Europe has paper and Gutenberg's printing press makes Bibles and Greek and Roman classics accessible. Now the individual can read and determine for one's self what to believe. This is a completely different life than serfs had before the Age of Discovery opened the world.

Bacon, born in 1561 really heats up the debates with inductive reasoning and there is a backlash against the church, scholasticism, and Aristotle (deductive reasoning).

Bacon has been called the father of empiricism.[7] He argued for the possibility of scientific knowledge based only upon inductive reasoning and careful observation of events in nature. He believed that science could be achieved by the use of a sceptical and methodical approach whereby scientists aim to avoid misleading themselves. Although his most specific proposals about such a method, the Baconian method, did not have long-lasting influence, the general idea of the importance and possibility of a sceptical methodology makes Bacon one of the later founders of the scientific method. — Wikipedia

Individuality and individual self-will, and deductive and inductive reasoning, and empiricism, are a whole different world. You flee to the city where you may gain your freedom if you are there long enough, and this is not God's will but your own will. :up:

And, as to the complexity of the slave issue....? — Vera Mont

Good question. In ancient times slavery did not have the same moral characteristics it has today. In the past, a slave was simply someone who lost a war. Slavery was an improvement over killing everyone. Also the conditions of slavery make an important difference. Unfortunately, light-skinned people did not see dark-skinned people as humans just like themselves, and this led to different rules of slavery than they had when they were enslaving their own kind.

The Bible was used to justify slavery and the Bible was used to argue against slavery. I am blown away by the fact that Christians in the West do not know the passages regarding slavery. I don't know if you want to get into this but in the US we might want to know more about the Bible and slavery. Darwinism also played a role in justifying slavery. I have a modern (less the 20 years old) book about education that says people with dark skin are biologically different from people with light skin. :gasp: The author of that book needs to learn more about genetics. I was shocked that today someone could publish such a racist book. When someone takes a position of authority, such as an author, that person needs to be held to a higher standard.

Bottom line the right or wrong of slavery is a matter of conscience. Ignorant people are blind to their errors in thinking. We have evolved our higher conscience thanks to having a constitution that was formed with thinking from the age of Enlightenment and the notion that individuals have rights. That was not exactly so in the time of Athens. Athens did not have the concept of individuality that we have today. Ancient Greeks were still more like tribes with a tribal identity, not an individual identity.

In Athens, people could argue just about anything in a court, but as they fought for their rights, it wasn't exactly their individual rights, but a matter of justice. Socrates argued what is justice and that is, how, do we as a people, survive and avoid the punishment of the gods? We still live with the remnants of this thinking. We may fear God will punish us if the people in the town are sinful, and tolerating homosexuality will bring on the wrath of God. We like to believe we survive hurricanes because God favors us and protected us. Whatever, I am trying to say, slavery is not wrong when you have a different set of beliefs than what those who believe in human rights hold as true and important. And some slaves had better lives than industrial workers in the north who were exploited and then dumbed when they were no longer useful. Today it is hard to comprehend such thinking.

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe
— Athena

Sounds nice. What does it mean in daily life? — Vera Mont

First, it means maturing and being okay with knowing individuals do not know that much. It is being old enough and experienced enough to begin to understand the meaning of all the facts. Knowing facts is not equal to knowing their meaning. This also goes with learning to ask questions. Part of learning good reasoning is learning logic (math) but logic alone does not equal wisdom.

Education is essential to developing wisdom. That can be informal life lessons. Traveling and experiencing other cultures is very helpful. Reading with the goal of expanding one's conscience is important. Studying philosophy and debating it with others is very helpful.

Keeping in harmony with the universe means observing nature and how it works. It means knowing logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and good manners. In the past gods represented the forces of nature and today our sciences help us understand the universal laws.

As in influencing policy? Seriously, which farm-hand, miner or railway porter ever got within sniffing distance of active leadership? — Vera Mont

I took action that resulted in changing a city law and another period of action created a law that gives Grandparents rights totally changed the department of children's services policy. I was also an advocate for the homeless and a lot has happened since I got that ball rolling. That is very much what our democracy is about. Anyone one of us can write letters to the editor, write letters to a representative, and might even meet with them. We can take action on the city, county, and state levels. We can organize groups for different things and public support. We can even run for the presidency.

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. — Athena


When it coalesces, yes. I don't think yours did.

Democracy is a complex concept. — Athena


Not really. Every citizen has a right to choose leaders and influence policy.

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson — Athena


Bullshit, Tom! You wanted to keep your slaves, including your own bastard children.
Hypocrisy we have always with us - past and present.

Also corruption, will to power and dominance, deception, avarice, aggression, resentment, jealousy, arrogance and rage, mental illness, religious delusion, addiction, bigotry and plain old everyday disagreement.
America has never closely resembled its own image of itself or the image it presents to the world. But then, neither does any other country. Some are just more opaque than others; some have been luckier; some are more demographically diverse. Some nations, like individual persons, have a self-image that's less distorted than others'. — Vera Mont

Ouch, democracy is far more than choosing leaders. It is also about being one of them. Democracy is o about producing leaders and those leaders must have willing followers or they can not lead. Democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people.

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe and education is essential to that task. Democracy is about the whole not separate and divided individuals. Of course this is not understood without literacy in Greek and Roman classics. The importance of morals to democracy is no longer understood and our amoral democracy seems on the verge of self destruction.

Thomas Jefferson wrote a law to free the slaves. https://www.monticello.org/slavery/paradox-of-liberty/thomas-jefferson-liberty-slavery/ The slavery issue was a complex one and judging people and what happened without understanding the complexity is not wisdom. Not everyone in Jefferson's day was well educated and therefore not everyone was influenced by the reasoning of the Enlightenment. Jefferson was influenced by the reasoning the enlightenment and I think it is important to hold a better understanding of his struggle and what the enlightenment has to do with opposition to slavery. We can not directly experience the enlightenment but we can learn about it in books.

One of my problems with the ontological existence of patterns in a mind-independent world, and the relations between their parts, is where exactly do they exist.

When looking at the image, we know that A and B are part of one pattern and D and E are part of a different pattern.

But within the mind-independent world, where is the information within A that it is part of the same pattern as B but not the same pattern as D. If there is no such information, then within the mind-independent world, patterns, and the relations between their parts, cannot have an ontological existence.

One could say that patterns and relations have an abstract existence, in that they exist but outside of time and space. This leaves the problem of how do we know about something that exists outside of time and space. I could say that I believe that unicorns exist in the world but outside of time and space, but as I have no knowledge of anything outside of time and space, my belief would be completely unjustifiable.

One could say that the force experienced by A due to B is sufficient to argue that as A and B are related by a force, this is sufficient to show that A and B are part of the same pattern. However, even though A may experience a force, there is no information within the force that can determine the source of the force, whether originating from B or D. This means that there is no information within the force experienced by A that can determine one pattern from another.

Question: Sentient beings observe patterns in a mind-independent world, but for patterns to ontologically exist in a mind-independent world, there must be information within A that relates it to B but not D. Where is this information? — RussellA

Clearly you speak of Plato's forms and also Aristotle's declaration that only matter is real.

Your picture shows the movement of water and the movement of land but the pattern is a result of temperature not just the movement of water and land. The picture does not tell the whole story but leaves out the most important part. Rapid expansion and rapid contraction that changes the form of land.

I am not sure that matter contains ontological information? I think information is what our minds do when we observe something. This is a little tricky. If we see a fossil in the dirt, we take measurements and determine what the animal was and perhaps even when it died, but are those facts information? Do the rings of a tree give us information or just facts and from there it takes an intelligence to make the facts meaningful information.

Not in the least. In fact, you seem to have thrown a lot of ideas into a big pot, but, like America, they refused to melt into an alloy. — Vera Mont

I replied to you 4 days ago, but didn't quote you so I have copied and pasted my reply with the hope you will reply.

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. Democracy is a complex concept.

If we can not bring back my grandmother's way of teaching, our democracy is doomed. Thomas Jefferson and teachers understood that. Since you do not like my efforts to explain what the Age of Enlightenment has to do with education and democracy, I will quote Kucinich and Thomas Jefferson. Right now most voters seem to lack the principles that are important to democracy and that is a problem.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
Thomas Jefferson

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." Thomas Jefferson

"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both."
Thomas Jefferson

"To all of which is added a selection from the elementary schools of subjects of the most promising genius, whose parents are too poor to give them further education, to be carried at the public expense through the college and university. The object is to bring into action that mass of talents which lies buried in poverty in every country, for want of the means of development, and thus give activity to a mass of mind, which, in proportion to our population, shall be double or treble of what it is in most countries."
Thomas Jefferson

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

"To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens...this brings us to the point at which are to commence the higher branches of education . . . . To develop the reasoning faculties of our youth, enlarge their minds, cultivate their morals, and instill into them the precepts of virtue and order."
Thomas Jefferson

"The objects of this primary education . . . would be . . . to form the statesmen, legislators and judges, on whom public prosperity and individual happiness are so much to depend." Thomas Jefferson

Agent Smith
8.2k
↪Athena
I see. So, if I may ask, what's the German model? Are we talking about the bureaucracy or education here? Did you know America is #1 in tertiary education? — Agent Smith

Of course I want people to ask questions and think about what I am saying. As for they US being #1 in tertiary education, that has nothing to do with democracy and not much to do with culture even though universities teach art and music, because what the elite learn is not important to the masses. In a democracy citizens must be well educated to be good voters and that is not happening.

“God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Cicero


“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

Cicero was a Roman Statesmen educated in Athens before Christianity. To have "right reasoning" is be knowledgeable of the philosophy that put us on the path to science. It is to know logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. By eighth grade a student better know virtues and principles and be prepared for life long learning and taking responsibility for the whole country. If this does not happen the democracy will self destruct.

The Prussian model for bureaucracy is a handful of people set policy and even if all the generals are killed things move forward as the policy dictates. The identify every job that needs to be done and define exactly how it will be done. This produces a mechanical society where individuals know their job and nothing more. They are to do exactly what they are told to do and nothing more. They are specialized and are glueless about what everyone else is doing.

But our forefathers were generalists and didn't have a concept of merit hiring and IQ testing and controlling all the details. Their focus was on a person's character. The character was everything. Reasonably intelligent people can learn anything but a person with a bad character is not likely to change and becomes like a rotten apple in the barrel. We learned an American mythology and we learned about our national heroes, because we are supposed to become like them. We are supposed to be virtuous and act on principles, and we are supposed to give service to our country. We do not have one book for teaching us this, like the Christians have the Bible, but the education is essential to our liberty and not fearing we could be shot down if we go to a mall for Christmas shopping.

In the old stupid days, people did a job based on their interest and talents and when someone died and had to be replaced, the new person would do the job differently and everyone would have to adjust. That could throw a large organization into total chaos! When Lincoln was killed the nation went into chaos. I know you are thinking we change presidents regularly and this thought needs to be followed by how everyone following policy means the train of events keeps moving and turning things around takes time.

It is the difference between these bureaucratic models that makes the change in education dramatically different. We are no longer generalizing and repairing everyone to be civic and industrial leaders so where are leaders coming from? Look at Trump and his family. The leaders are coming from those in power. Or the children of immigrants who were inspired by the American ideals much more so than those who take our democracy for granted and now expect the government to take care of them. Our focus on merit and is not giving us the leadership and supporters of that leadership that a democracy must have. With the present bureaucratic model, people just need to follow policy and it is best if that is all they think about. That is the opposite of the ideal citizen in our past.

So, I'm not sure who you have a beef with - the bureaucracy or politicians? The question Hannah Arendt asked is critical to the plot of course.

I'd say we need ta dig a little deeper and try some role swapping along the way. "Are we worthy to be saved, o lord?" muttered the kneeling pries — Agent Smith

Bureaucratic order is everything.

It is really important to understand what bureaucratic form has to do with the power of government to control or influence our lives. I have repeatedly said the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and with the German model of education this gets what we defended our democracy against. Unfortunately I am not understanding why my words are meaningless to everyone and what I can do about that. If people got what I am saying, the discussion would be very interesting to me.

Yes, what we see as patterns have emerged through natural processes in nature millions of years before there was any sentient being to observe them.

I would say that we discover patterns in nature rather than create them in our minds, as it is in the nature of sentient beings to discover patterns in the world around them.

However, any discussion is complicated by the metaphorical nature of language, in that the words "emerge", "natural", "nature", "create", "processes", "discover" and "mind" are metaphorical rather than literal terms. Trying to describe literal truths in a mind-independent world using language that is inherently metaphorical is like trying to square the circle. — RussellA

I love that explanation. :heart: It fits perfectly with what I was thinking. Life is constant change but our language focuses on material manifestations, things. We have lost all the animism from our understanding of life. So a form is no longer Plato's understanding of form being manifest from an external force. But animation is a cartoon we create. :chin: Sometimes poetry seems better for understanding than our Romanized language of things. If I knew I had 300 years to live, I would study Chinese so I could think of everything as that language explains life.

One of my problems with the ontological existence of patterns in a mind-independent world, and the relations between their parts, is where exactly do they exist. — RussellA

That is an exciting thought.

When we discover a pattern or a relation, we are discovering an inherent part of human nature, not something that ontologically exists in a mind-independent world. — RussellA

Those geometric patterns emerge through natural processes. :wink:
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/11/why-is-irelands-giants-causeway-shaped-like-that/

You speak of patterns being created by our mind but this seems to miss what nature has to do with patterns.

I don't know much about education. I don't have the relevant qualification. I remember, rather vaguely, attending classes in high school and then a few lecture halls back in my college days but alas these do not add up to an appropriate credential
to comment any further than I already have which, as you would've noticed, is an example of someone talking out his/her bung hole, er, I mean hat!

God points though. You seem to be aware of the flaws in our system, but as I reported in the climate change thread, something really weird is going on. — Agent Smith

I have had a super great morning so far. I unexpectedly found something in my files about the WWII war crime trials that is perfect for my arguments. Now I just need to figure out how to do a new thread that will attract more people who can help me think things through.

The 1958 change in education in the US has produced people who can not reason independently, leading to reactionary politics and other problems. Education for technology is not education for independent thinking and is intentionally education for "group think". One would think education for "group think" would be ideal for democracy but- group thinkers are dependent followers, not independent thinkers. And there are social, economic, and political ramifications to this change.

The US adaptation of the German model of bureaucracy seems a logical improvement over the extremely efficient bureaucracy we had. Seriously we could not be a world power without that adjustment. Please ask questions. I am dying here trying to figure out how to say things so they are understood. This is a control issue. How has authority and power? Let me try this...

The Nazi were not evil people but people controlled by bureaucracy and educated to be like parts that serve the Borg.

https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil

Can one do evil without being evil? This was the puzzling question that the philosopher Hannah Arendt grappled with when she reported for The New Yorker in 1961 on the war crimes trial of Adolph Eichmann, the Nazi operative responsible for organizing the transportation of millions of Jews and others to various concentration camps in support of the Nazi’s Final Solution.

I must leave the man I am trying to help on the streets in freezing weather, or I could lose my housing and he would not be able to get the help he needs to get the appropriate independent housing. That is bureaucratic control of our lives. It is immoral because there is no human connection with people on the streets like in Germany there was no connection with the Jews. People are just doing what they have to do for their own benefit. Failure to submit to the bureaucrat control can mean serious sacrifices such as losing housing or a job. Excuse my pagan aphorism but damnit why is it so hard for everyone to see what has happened and what increasing technology is going to do to our liberty and freedom? Technology will give some people excellent jobs with excellent pay and benefits, while it will marginalize all those who are not absorbed into the system. The masses will get public assistance and they will also be very controlled by fear of losing these benefits if they do not submit to the bureaucracy.

While Christians like to believe they get the credit for our liberty and democracy, the belief that we are born into sin can lead to a very controlling bureaucracy over the people. The US left moral training to the church and the church is not the best for liberty. Believing we are born in sin and need to be saved is very different from believing education can bring out the best in humanity.

is it ethical for technological automation top be stunted, in order to preserve jobs (or a healthy job marketplace — Bret Bernhoft

If the purpose of education is about preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values, what happens to the nation?

The education system is not an issue then - if it has been, as you say, reworked. I'm not complaining, being myself a beneficiary of the US education system in both direct and indirect ways. I don't think I would be where I am (not exactly a happy place and yet better in many ways). — Agent Smith

The good and the bad of our education does not stop with individuals doing well in life. How well individuals do depends greatly on how well their family has done. A nation not united with culture is not united. Few disadvantaged children are doing well because they do not know of life outside of the tiny experience of it. Education centered on those who will go to college cheats all those who will not go to college out of the education that serves them best. But more important is why education is important to democracy and liberty.

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

That is what we need to understand about the trouble we are having today. Automatic weapons are selling much better than the classics or books about philosophy. We think we defend our democracy with weapons of war and are clueless of the importance of the classics and philosophy. That is not how to manifest a democracy and liberty.

If the citizens of the US wanted lifelong education as much as they want weapons to defend themselves, the state of our union would be much better. Voting ignorance destroys democracy. I refer you to Socrates and Plato. I will repeat the quote from Kucinich.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. Democracy is a complex concept.

If we can bring back my grandmother's way of teaching, our democracy is doomed. Thomas Jefferson and teachers understood that. Since you do not like my efforts to explain what the Age of Enlightenment has to do with education and democracy, I will quote Kucinich and Thomas Jefferson. Right now most voters seem to lack the principles that are important to democracy and that is a problem.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
Thomas Jefferson

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." Thomas Jefferson

"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both."
Thomas Jefferson

"To all of which is added a selection from the elementary schools of subjects of the most promising genius, whose parents are too poor to give them further education, to be carried at the public expense through the college and university. The object is to bring into action that mass of talents which lies buried in poverty in every country, for want of the means of development, and thus give activity to a mass of mind, which, in proportion to our population, shall be double or treble of what it is in most countries."
Thomas Jefferson

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

"To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens...this brings us to the point at which are to commence the higher branches of education . . . . To develop the reasoning faculties of our youth, enlarge their minds, cultivate their morals, and instill into them the precepts of virtue and order."
Thomas Jefferson

"The objects of this primary education . . . would be . . . to form the statesmen, legislators and judges, on whom public prosperity and individual happiness are so much to depend." Thomas Jefferson

Because "the old country" is immediate and real to the grandparents; a nebulous memory to the parents, irrelevant to the children. Because their children's world is different from their own. Because the future is different from the past. Because things change. You can't bring back your grandmother's kind of teaching. It belongs in the past. You can't reconstitute an ideal America that never was. It is what it is and will become what it will become. — Vera Mont

Did you learn that in school? I believe you did and it is why I keep hammering away at what is wrong with education for technology and blaming those who gave us this education for ripping children away from their families.

Our ideal democracy has always been in the making and we are realizing successes that were not possible in the past. In the past, our education system was very limited and many students dropped out by grade 8. That is too young to learn more complex thoughts such as the thinking skills needed for philosophy and science. Jobs did not require a lot of education and we needed all the working hands we could get. Hopefully, they learned to be good citizens and hopefully, they continued learning for the rest of their lives as this is essential to democracy.

That would have to include: — Vera Mont

You missed something that is vitally important about our identity.

Our identity is tied to feelings of belonging or feelings of alienation. Our identity can also be tied to feelings of pride or feelings of shame. This is a very important factor when considering a child's education. We now see it as wrong to educate native American children in such a way as to intentionally break all ties to their tribe. The well-intended missionary schools that tore children from their families and punished them for speaking their native language are seen as a terrible thing today. On the other hand, the Scandinavians who settled in the area where I live, have an annual festival celebrating the heritage. Asian Americans who live here have two annual celebrations educating us about their culture.

Am I making my point clear? When it comes to education, one size does not fit all. However, American citizens should share a set of American values (national values) and know our history. Immigrants must prove they know our values and history before they can be citizens. However, today the average high school student may not be able to pass the test for citizenship.

Your blindness to cultural differences is as disrespectful of all people as the missionaries and is as dangerous as driving blind. However, our education for a technological society seems to put universal knowledge first and ignore our differences as though they don't matter. I think I have given examples of why our differences do matter. It is painful to be anonymous in the crowd and possibly disenfranchised.
Those who stormed our Capital Building most likely suffer from feeling anonymous and disenfranchised.

I don't know what you-all, collectively, want. I only know you can't seem to agree. — Vera Mont

That is a problem. You seem to lack an understanding of what culture is and why it is important.

↪Athena The education system is not an issue then - if it has been, as you say, reworked. I'm not complaining, being myself a beneficiary of the US education system in both direct and indirect ways. I don't think I would be where I am (not exactly a happy place and yet better in many ways). — Agent Smith

In the 1970's we announced a national youth crisis. My son and daughter were part of that and I take the change in education very seriously. I was in school when the 1958 National Defense Education was enacted and I remember my teachers walking around in a state of shock. It was frightening because at that time when were also very afraid of a nuclear attack from Russia and doing drills of ducking under our desk. :rofl: As though that would do any good in a nuclear war. Finally in the afternoon a male teacher explained the purpose of education had been changed and it was now about preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values. We could not get any further from the value-laden education we had.

That change in education lead to women's liberation and increased the strength of people of color gaining equality and finally to the Lesbian, bisexual and gay movement. It has also weakened family values. That is the meaning of unknown values, anything goes. Problem is like civilizations before us we ripping apart. We have a technological society with unknown values and we are not prepared to get a consensus on what our values should be. I do not mean the change in education is the only thing that lead to change, and I want to clarify some of that change is a good thing.

What I mean is those in power did not understand the importance of culture and what education has to do with it in a secular society. We still do not get, that culture does not have to be a Christian culture or a Muslim Culture to have social order and liberty. That culture can be based on Greek and Roman classics and a liberal education. For me, the ignorance of what I am saying is our national crisis. We do not have the knowledge that is essential to having social order without authority over the people.

Education for technology ripped our children from us. In the past education contributed to respecting our elders, and wanting to be adults with responsibility, human dignity, and liberty.

Does this mean following Trump and attempting to take over the Capital Building with force and threatening people like election workers and members of congress?
— Athena

I'm afraid it does include that, too. That very large, noisy disaffected minority is not an accidental byproduct of education-for-technology: it's the product of crappy political and economic organization. — Vera Mont

Your reply is the problem we have today! That is the result of education no longer transmitting the culture that was transmitted before the 1958 National Defense Education Act ended that education. The very reason we have free public education was to prevent those problems. Teachers were proud of their efforts to support unions, granges, fraternities, in general the need to work together to achieve a shared goal. There is so much to talk about!

Christians and Muslims and Hindus teach their children what is important about being one of them
— Athena

and a lot more besides. People do try to teach their American children all of those things, and they more or less fail. — Vera Mont

Why do they fail? Who is the child following if not the parents?

It is not culture unless it is what a society holds as valuable and this is why I keep hammering away at the importance of education transmitting a culture. Here is a definition of culture... the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. Cultures around the world vary and they are learned.

Show me one! Mathematical realities are average income, average intelligence, average height, average vocal range, average running speed. What number is "average personhood"? — Vera Mont

Awe technology! We live in an information reality different from anything in the past. Thanks to computers and the internet we can gather and store huge volumes of information. We can pick any factor of being human and use information in the Cloud to know where the average person falls in a spectrum of differences.

We can learn about average people with surveys. We can know how many people in our area identify with being Christian and assume some things about them. Then we need to do social research, a test of some kind to know if the assumption is true. Can you think of something that would define an average that we can not figure out an average for? Keeping in mind an average does not negate differences.

That's a lot like saying Captain Picard is a fictional reality. Have you seen any mathematical realities running around the playgrounds or climbing scaffolds? — Vera Mont

Absolutely yes. That play yard is constructed with knowledge of averages. The school policies and class planning is built on knowledge of averages. But this does not mean a fourth grader from Peru is not struggling with the language used in his new US school. The boy from Peru may not score high on the IQ test because of language and cultural barriers.

I said nothing about priorities or 'should's'. I agreed that what was lacking was lacking and will continue to be lacking, because nobody has a good enough understanding of culture to fix indelibly into a whole federally mandated curriculum. Especially as culture keeps changing.

Every generation prepares its young for the world they themselves inhabit - not the world in which in the children will live when they grow up. Every generation, every faction, every denomination and nationality tries to impart its own beliefs, mores and values to its children - and the children invariably disappoint their parents: they change. The best that can be done is to let 'em at knowledge and let 'em go.

Greek and Roman cultures are interesting to study. So are plankton and whales. So are solar flares and meteor showers. So are poetry and music, math and pottery.
30 minutes ago — Vera Mont

Can we imagine we are native Iroquois and talk about what is important about being one of them? Do we want our children to know what is important about being Iroquois?

How about being Jew? What is important about being a Jew? Do Jews and Christians and Muslims and Hindus teach their children what is important about being one of them?

Now what about being an American and what it means to be a good citizen in the US? Does this mean following Trump and attempting to take over the Capital Building with force and threatening people like election workers and members of congress? Our Capital Building was open to tourist and we could visit it whenever we wanted. Trump supporters ruined our liberty to do so. Some of these changes came with 9/11. Some of us believe our democracy is going in the wrong direction. Do we want to continue ignoring our lack of culture that did give us a lot of liberty?

Two things about that: NONA and There is no such animals as an average person — Vera Mont

Average people are mathematical reality. That does not negate the reality of variety.

You're right of course - education would need to be overhauled in order to meet the challenges & capitalize on the opportunities of emerging realities, among which is (some say) rapid technological advancement. How do you suppose we should do this? — Agent Smith

I am confused about who is arguing what. Education was overhauled by the 1958 National Defense Education Act that ended education for citizenship and the transmission of a culture based on Greek and Roman classics and put in its place education for a technological society with unknown values and left moral training to the church. It was the beginning of a federal takeover of education and judging children with IQ tests and gradually the federal government increased its control of education. Everyone here might remember the No Child Left Behind Act put through by Bush Jr. and hated by teachers. The joke of that Act is that it required schools to give military recruiters children's names and addresses. A play on the meaning of no child left behind.

What was lacking is a good understanding of what culture has to do with high human potential, liberty, and justice, and what education has to do with culture.
— Athena

Always! You won't change that. — Vera Mont

What? You believe the priority of education should be transmitting a culture based on what was best of the Greeks and Romans? Then we do not have a disagreement.

In the past, we associated virtues with strength, and our honor or reputation was very important along with our dignity.
— Athena

I don't know which past or which "we" that refers to, but it doesn't leave much trace in the history books. Maybe it's just in the elementary school readers and the inscription of statues. Symbolic. — Vera Mont

That would have been the educated people who learned the culture promoted by educated people.

The central doctrines of the Enlightenment were individual liberty and religious tolerance, in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Church. The principles of sociability and utility also played an important role in circulating knowledge useful to the improvement of society at large.

Age of Enlightenment - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Age_of_Enlightenment — Wikipedia

What's the point of a democracy where the properly educated citizens are powerless against an elected government's decision to change their good education system for a bad one? — Vera Mont

My grandmother wasted no time but opened opportunities to thousands of young people and successfully defended the US democracy in the classroom. The success of teachers includes winning two world wars and also preparing our young to advance our nation in every way, and those who continued their education and got college degrees were almost guaranteed upward economic opportunity. Nothing has done more for individuals and our nation than education.

Who knew the change would lead to serious problems? In 1917 and again in1958 there was a lot of fear and immediate action seemed necessary. At the same time, we were flying high on our successes in technology and medical advancements and had what some may say was an unrealistic faith in technology. And a very big determiner of events was, and is, the influence of Christianity.

From the beginning of the US, secular people were pitted against the religious people. The majority believe humans are born in sin and bound to do wrong unless they are saved by a spiritual force. Only a small handful of people were literate in the classics and understood what education, other than reading the Bible, has to do with democracy and lifting the human potential. Only the Age of Enlightenment, secular people, believed science and democracy would manifest a New Age, a time of high tech, peace, and the end of tranny. While religious people wait for a God and the last days. Everyone's intentions were good. What was lacking is a good understanding of what culture has to do with high human potential, liberty, and justice, and what education has to do with culture.

Let me make this clear, religious people expect a God to take care of us, and they are not enlightened. Science tells us masks, distancing, washing our hands, and vaccinations are essential to stopping the spread of disease, and ministers were telling their flocks to ignore science and they stirred paranoid fear of our government being evil, setting the stage for a violent attempt to take control of the National Capitol Building and overturn the election. This is what is wrong with education for technology and leaving moral training to the church and you can bet Christians and their ministers do not see themselves as part of the problem. They oppose public education for good moral judgment and do not understand their fight to be the authority of what is moral, and for what they believe, is part of the problem.

Our relationship with Christianity is kind of like our relationship with slavery. We have kept both for the benefits while denying the problems.

↪Athena Education is important and by education I mean a wholesome one. Statistics should aid you and Vera Mont decide who's right even if only partially. Who is a better human being? The average American, the average Chinese, the average Indian, ...? Why? Education!

:coffee: — Agent Smith

Wow who is the better person and why? I am afraid I can not give a good answer. You caused me to doubt my firm position on education because you made me aware it is very culturally biased. If we live with each other, education for democracy is essential but that is not so everywhere. There are areas of the earth that provide adequate diets and resources for small groups of people who are very happy people. They live in Eden and maybe we should not destroy that. I am hesitant to say our more technologically dependent society is better. But for a large society, we may be doing better than in China and for sure we are doing better than Aghanistan or Hatti.

Why? Climate is one reason, the environment is another, and knowledge of science is important. The size of the population is very important. We become impersonal and instinctively more dependent on discrimination and formal laws when we live in large populations.

Culture is another serious matter. Culture is taught and used for social control. Now I think we get into climate and environmental factors. People are more liberal and less fearful in mild climates and their culture would build on the climate and environment they experience. Life in Siberia is going to be different than on a tropical island. I would not be so pompous to run around the world and say everyone should have the education that the US needs.

So, where did all of those properly educated citizens - which should be ever American who went to school - go? What happened in 1958 to disappear any effect they might have had? Why didn't they stop the steal? — Vera Mont

Why didn't they stop the steal? Number one all those people knew no more about education than you do. Nor do Americans know any more about philosophy and the Age of Enlightenment and what both have to do with democracy and education than you do. OR if they did know about education for democracy and good citizenship as my grandmother did, they were powerless because unlike you all the people who do not know what it is so important to know, they just don't care and they don't argue or ask questions, they just ignore the subject. Do you see many people engaging in the argument?

I don't know which past or which "we" that refers to, but it doesn't leave much trace in the history books. Maybe it's just in the elementary school readers and the inscription of statues. Symbolic. — Vera Mont

My grandmother walked away from the schools that made the change because the school interfered with classroom discipline. She went on to a private school that did not interfere with her classroom. And then she became a Vista Volunteer and worked with immigrant children and taught their mothers how to play the piano in the evening. When she could no longer reenlist in Vista she went home and volunteered at another school. And our local newspaper was staffed with people of her generation and they were as well-mannered and virtuous as she was I am sorry younger people can never experience the reality we had because now all these older people are dead and every generation we get further from them, the worse things get. If you knew those old people, we would not be arguing.


Have you seen Eisenhower's explanation of the change? Can you try this? Think about this thread and the question about technology when you watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY

That warning goes with Billy Graham working with Eisenhower to create fear of those godless people of the USSR, and bonded our pledge of allegiance with the Christian God. And it goes with schoolchildren being drilled to duck under their desks and cover their heads with their hands, and selling those who could afford them, private bomb shelters. Following WWII was a period of paranoia made all the worse by a behind the scene grab of our country, and industry increasing their contracts with government during a time of peace. Before this, the Roosevelt administration, with the help of Hoover designed the bureaucratic structure that is essential to increasing the power of government bureaucratically. Eisenhower added to it, a new relationship between government and research for military purposes and a new relationship with media.

If you find what I said unbelievable, please ask questions that require more information or validation. I am well impressed by your tenacity in continuing your arguments and asking questions. I wish our arguing would catch the attention of others who may remember the people who are now dead. It is a challenge to find a find a written record of their existence but I can think of one more video that may help you see for yourself we have a different past. And I kind of like the challenge you have given me. :grin:

https://www.google.com/search?q=video+of+walter+cronkite&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=Video+Walter+Cronki&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30l2.11208j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1d287e8c,vid:G5tdqojA26E

You keep talking about this wonderful education you used to have. I find no historical trace of it, and no resemblance to the Athens that also didn't live up to your ideal representation. And I still can't see any relevance of either to the thread topic. — Vera Mont

Come to my home and I will show gladly show you the evidence. Or you can start your own search for the American values every child was taught. That is how I came to the information I have. I wanted to prove a commentator wrong when he said teachers should not have to waste their time on poor students. Back in my grandmother's day, teachers thought it was their purpose to teach good citizenship and prepare the young for adulthood, and also to help each child discover his/her own talents and interest. Let me be very clear about this, the education was for the individual child's benefit and the dream is those so benefited will be enabled to give the country their very best. Democracy through education lifts the human potential.

My grandmother felt so strongly about her purpose in life that she continue teaching long after she was forced to retire because of her age. She did this with love for our democracy which liberates the individual and aims at justice for all. Athena is represented as the Statue of Liberty, The Lady of Justice, and the Spirit of America as she is portrayed in the mural of gods at the Capital Building. All of them have the Sword of Justice. Liberty holds a book representing knowledge that sets us free. The Lady of Justice holds a scale as justice is a balance. As the Spirit of America, she brandishes a sword that defends liberty and justice and she stands for morale, that good feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing. In the past, we associated virtues with strength, and our honor or reputation was very important along with our dignity.

Think thread begins with a moral question of right and wrong. Giving up the education that made us great to focus on education for technology was a huge mistake. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and we are not doing that. Our present amoral society does not reflect the values that made us great. That same thing happened to Athens, leading to Socrates finding fault with democracy.

It isn't, you know, any more important than all the literature that's been written in the last 2000 years. You seem to make a direct link between the golden age of Athens (less than 20 years, and even in that short time, some questionable situations arose) and some kind of golden moment, or maybe distilled essence
of America. There is no such link: everything in between happened. All the awful and hopeful, shameful and triumphant stuff happened. The moving erases nothing, forgets nothing. — Vera Mont

Yes, it is more important than the large volumes of books printed since 2000 if the subject is democracy. Some good books about democracy have been written in modern times, but how popular are they? Which of them have you read?

You keep talking about this wonderful education you used to have. I find no historical trace of it, and no resemblance to the Athens that also didn't live up to your ideal representation. And I still can't see any relevance of either to the thread topic. — Vera Mont

Yes I am linking ancient Athens with the democracy of the US, before 1958.

Why do you keep arguing about something you know nothing about? What do you think separates the East from the West? Athens was the Mother of western culture and the Father of science and the parent of democracy. Athena taught men how to govern themselves. You know them not.

"You" must have been very wise to realize that all non-English speakers are too stupid to understand about democracy before they decide to make the huge sacrifice of leaving their kith, kin, worldly goods and homeland and take a chance on the new World. — Vera Mont

What I am saying is it requires education to understand and defend democracy. The issue is not a person's native tongue, but in the past immigrants did not have experience with democracy and they did not understand our institutions. Today that is true of most Americans thanks to education for technology replacing the education for citizens that we had. I also think Socrates is miss represented when people say he hated democracy. He hated ignorance, not democracy, and so do I.

No, he couldn't have cared less about us. He was concerned with the adolescents of his own time and place. His idea of virtue was probably a little different from the average American's, which is a little different from above and below average Americans'. — Vera Mont

If you think you know enough about Socrates to tell me about him, let us start a thread for that purpose.

Socrates > Quotes
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.” ...
“The unexamined life is not worth living.” ...
“I cannot teach anybody anything. ...
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” ...
“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” ...
“Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.”
More items...

Socrates Quotes (Author of Apología de Sócrates) - Goodreads
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/275648.Socrates

How do you teach the rules of logic to a three-year-old? By the time formal educators can teach him anything, he's already absorbed his society's values. They're not about logic; they're about what's cheered and what's booed. — Vera Mont

Yes, as I have been saying that is the problem with education for technology. The children are educated but left ignorant of what everyone good citizen should know. Seriously we did not depend on immigrant parents to prepare their children for democracy. We knew the parents would learn from their children.

That's what I keep telling you. It didn't. "People" as a concept may have been "valued" as a concept in the official documents, but on the ground, in the battlefields and cotton fields, mines, railroads and factories, the vast majority of people certainly never had been valued as anything but commodities. The "labor market" is not, and never has been, far removed from the stock market or the cattle market.
The purpose of education was always to turn out whatever kind of work-force the economy required. The requirements of the economy changed after the US dropped Fat Man and Little Boy, yes. It had to be directed more toward technology, more toward space race and world dominance, sure.
And education had to adjust. Again. Just as it had had to adjust in the early 20th century, when automation made a lot of illiterate unskilled labour unnecessary, and demanded more skilled and clerical workers. Just as it had in the west, when tractors and harvesters rendered many farm labourers redundant, and young people going to seek work in the city needed new skills. As it changed in the south, when white farmers became sharecroppers and needed all their kids to lend a hand, just so they could scrape out a living, but the landowners, bankers and war profiteers sent their kids to private schools in Europe. Education follows the economy. — Vera Mont

The definition of democracy is copied from the series of grade school textbooks call "Democracy in America".

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental morel and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.

Here are the characteristics that define the ideals and procedures of democracy. You can argue against them, but the point is this is an example of what was taught and I am proving what was taught.

1 Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.
2 Open opportunity for the individual.
3 Economic and social security.
4 The search for truth. (this is science)
5 Free discussion; freedom of speech, freedom of the press.
6 Universal education.
7 The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority, the honest ballot.
8 Justice for the common man, trial by jury, arbitration of disputes, orderly legal processes, freedom from search and seizure, right to petition.
9 Freedom of religion.
10 Respect for the rights of private property.
11 The practice of the fundamental social values.
12 The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

The original purpose of free public education in the US was to Americanize the flood of immigrates and prepare everyone for democracy as this was understood in Athens. We really need literacy in Greek and Roman classics to understand what democracy is about but even teachers today are illiterate of the necessary literature. That technological adjustment made in education is devastating for our democracy which is no longer understood and this very much is about good moral judgment because people with the power of voting or even becoming a member of our government devastate democracy and liberty and right now we are in fight to defend our democracy with zero understanding this needs to begin with education. This is a crisis and Trump made us aware of it as he and his followers actually thought they use violence to take control of our government.

We did not have vocational training until 1917 when we mobilized for the first world war against an enemy that had far better military technology than the US. No one knew what the new vocational training would do to our lives and economy but for the first time, the new technology and vocational training made dirt poor people interested in having their children educated instead of keeping them home to help with the farm. This education was the best thing that could have happened to our nation.
If you want to argue this, fine, just do so instead of thinking you can avoid an argument by saying this history does not matter because it is old information.

While vocational education was added to education, preparing our young to be good citizens remained the priority until 1958, because before the military technology of the second world war, our defense depended mostly on patriotism. Citizens had to make big sacrifices to fight those wars. Not like today when we can engage in war without disturbing our morning routine and carrying on our lives as though there was no war.

Probably not what you think it is. I believe good and bad moral judgment are not products of formal schooling, but the example children are shown, and the values they absorbs from their family, peers and culture. You can teach them that honesty is best policy all you want, but if their life experience shows that cheaters do prosper and the honest man is considered a sucker, most of them will cheat. — Vera Mont

Before one can have good moral judgment, one must learn the rules of logic. That requires education for learning logic and this begins with learning math and how to diagram a sentence. Scientific thinking improves logic.

Socrates was concerned with broadening our conscience, our knowledge, especially knowledge of virtues is important and the virtues must be learned before we can be aware of them. This is why classical literature is important. However, science is also very important to our conscience.

Also if education had not changed in 1938, 1910, 1895, 1803, 1662, 1412, 976 and 535 BCE. Also, if there had not been two world wars, a Bolshevik revolution, a US civil war, the Seven Years' war, the war of the roses, the French Revolution, the Crusades and the Peloponnesian War... That's right; everything past produces the present. Not one event; all events. — Vera Mont

Is that information also debunked and refutable or do you think history and cause and effect have something to do with our reality today? In the history forum there is a part set aside to discuss alternative histories based on changing the events of history.

This thread is about the advancement of technology and employment changes, and hopefully social changes. Education for a technological society with unknown values is important to our present reality.

All children getting college prep educations instead of more art and music and literature and vocational training, impacts our reality. In the past people with 8th grade educations had no problem getting jobs and some of them even began their own businesses. Today children are marginalized at a very young age and excessive population has pushed the cost of living beyond many people's means. We are scrambling to deal with these problems and don't have grandparents on farms where the young can find refuge from the poverty of cities. Now, this is getting more on-topic. How can those who are not college educated have desirable lives?