I spent a lot of my life doing that. At one time, I believed improvement was not merely possible, but that it would continue on beyond me. What I have seen instead is the erosion of much of the social progress my generation brought about. I no longer believe human are capable of sustained progress. I'm not even sure enough of us want it. — Vera Mont

We are in a period of transition and this is not the first time civilizations have been through periods of transition, however, I am very worried about our future and that makes this thread about logical thinking very important.

I am very concerned about what our education for a technological society with unknown values is coming to. I think our faith in what technology will do for us has as many negative effects as religion. I am worried about the family. I think humans need family and the homemaker. Just as doctor's offices and businesses need the receptionist. Technology has disrupted the family order that ordered the whole of society. Eliminating the receptionist is another break in social order that has negative effects. :lol: The receptionist is kind of like a comma in a sentence. It helps make sense of everything.

Bottom line, things are getting better and they are getting worse. Hopefully, as we continue forward, things will be more better than more worse. :lol:

This is a goof question but why do you call it ethical? it has to do what with ethics? It has to do with practicality, with usefulness, with power, with economic reality, but what does it have to do with ethics?

It''s the second thread I see you've started with "is it ethical" and neither one has to do anything with ethics.

Why the obsession with ethics? — god must be atheist

I like the challenge of trying to answer your question.

I begin with a definition of ethics "moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity."

A moral principle of democracy is equality and while at first technology greatly increased our equality, at the stage it is now, it is making us unequal and increasingly marginalizing people who can not keep up with the technology. For this reason, different levels of government have worked to provide low-income people with the ability to use the internet. The disparity between the advantaged and disadvantaged became obvious during the pandemic and the need to home-school. And it is so much more than this!

Not everyone has a college-level IQ and Head Start programs have not been the equalizer we hoped they would be. The 1958 National Defense Education Act lead to focusing education on those who are headed for college, and those not headed for college have been cheated out of the education that would benefit them. And worse, increasingly employment requires those very high degrees and there are fewer jobs for those with just an average IQ. A society that supports those with a high IQ and ignores those with just an average IQ is not ethical. Marginalizing a mass of people tends to lead to rebellion. A moral being cause and effect makes disenfranchising and marginalizing people immoral and unethical, right?

Then there are the elderly who are being closed out by technology. I love technology and believe it is vital to the New Age but I hate the use of technology that makes many older people dependent on someone helping them make a doctor's appointment, or complete appointments because of the blankety-blank technology that has replaced receptionists.

Now I can move on to the possibility that everything is breaking down because of reliance on technology that is not working for us. Tools should remain useful to us. Tools should not be taking over our control of the moment and order our behavior.

This has too much personal depth in it for me to accurately unpackage. I can run it around in my head, but I am sure that whatever interpretations I come up with will not match your intent closely enough.
You would need to explain your logic and the emotional drivers behind the imagery you invoke.
If you simply mean you now feel you are too old to be an effective warrior in your quest for a better world, then you would be better having a PM exchange with Athena on that stuff as you could probably both be a support for each other imo. I am 58, I don't know how I will feel about fighting the good fight, when I am a lot older. That's if I ever reach 'a lot older.' — universeness

I studied gerontology at the U of O and as I age, I have a better understanding of what I suppose to learn. From both angles (book learning and experience) I would say as we age our focus is increasingly on the young. Of course, that is not true of everyone, :lol: pain can greatly narrow our vision, or some never did much thinking as they went through life. However, those who thought their way through life, are even more valuable in their later years.

There was fear that a growing older population would be selfish and use their political power to benefit themselves. That is not what I have seen because the closest we can get to immortality is what we leave for the young. The greatest heartache of the people I know is the young not listening to their words of experience and they are struggling to hold their tongues. However, we can become politically active. We can testify at public hearings on all levels of government. We can join organizations that are doing the work we want to be done.

10 Most Popular Fraternal Club Organizations https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/10-most-popular-fraternal-club-organizations-saulino-cpcu-rplu

The Older Americans Act is all about keeping us socially connected and involved. That Act entitles us to decent housing, transportation, and continuing education and gave us nutrition sites and senior centers. :lol: Because of the fear of what we will do with our united power, we can't use our senior centers for political purposes. But I must stress our entitlements are to maintain us as contributing members of society.

It's certainly true there is still a great deal of work to do before we achieve a better global human society.
I think today's youth are up to the task and I agree they will still need all the help they can get.
I don't concur with all of the reasons you cite for why we are where we are now but that's not as important as the fact that you do your best to be part of the solutions and that's about as much as anyone can ask of any individual. — universeness

About having a ways to go before achieving a better global society. That is such a big subject and I believe technology is a big part of that. The "New Age" is a time of high tech, peace, and the end of tranny. Certainly, the internet is a big part of change around the world.

I am also thinking of John Kennedy's Peace Core program.

Volunteers work with youth in communities to promote engagement and active citizenship, including gender awareness, employability, health and HIV/AIDS education, environmental awareness, sports and fitness programs, and information technology.

What Volunteers Do - Peace Corps — Peace Corps

That explanation missed a big one, help with farming. Actually, we have big farm corporations because of research on how to help farmers in poor countries. Unfortunately, that research led to destroying small farmers because the best way to feed the masses is lots of fertilizer and huge farms. In a country like India where many owned small farms the change was devastating. It appears the focus of the Peace Core has changed a lot since the beginning. The new focus is social engineering which was not in the original program.

That social engineering is part of education in the US and this should not happen without a lot of social discussion which brings us to the benefit of the internet.

Hum, what should the family look like in the New Age?

And if such words were the Bible, I would read it. I can not praise the people in this enough. I find the posts superior to what can be found in other forums that arouse emotions but do not stimulate the mind.

I am rushing and want to drop another way of looking at language and communication.

Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind; the third on the proof, provided by the words of the speech itself.
https://www.wix.com/wordsmatter/blog/2020/12/ethos-pathos-logos/ — Wix

Recognition of animal reasoning does not promote human devolution. — ucarr

The issue for me is education. Reasoning and logical thinking are not the same. If it is not understood that learning math and grammar are important to learning how to think logically, the necessary lessons will not be taught and the student will not become a logical thinker. The student will remain like an animal basing decisions on feelings instead of on logic. Then we will have young males gunning down people and other social problems because the masses are not getting the disciplined thinking of education.

Let's see, what was the chemical Trump told people to use to avoid getting covid. You know, the chemical that killed a woman's husband. "Trump says he's taking hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID". "Arizona man dies after attempting to take Trump coronavirus cure". That is reasoning. The information science and doctors use is based on logic and we have a religious mass that rejects science.

You know all those people who refused to use masks and said the government is trying to control us and the attack on the Capitol Building and the man who bashed in Pelois's husband's head. That is all reasoning, not logic.

The US is in a crisis because of bad reasoning and I am arguing we can use math and grammar to improve the reasoning of the masses. And yes, thinking animals and humans reason and confusing that with learning and using logic, has brought us down to the level of animals with half the nation believing Trump, who demonstrates all the characteristics of a tyrant, is a good father to our nation, put in the position of president by the power of God so obviously the election that put Biden in power was corrupted! Great reasoning, huh?

Fantastic, hopeful, encouraging words that our next generation so badly need to hear as they can make it happen. — universeness

They can not make it happen without better information. How many people here know about autocracy versus democracy, instead of left and right, and that democracy is a social order? Autocracy is also a social order. There are social, economic, and political ramifications of replacing education for good citizenship, with education that is preparing our young to be products for industry. How many of our young have a good understanding of democracy and leadership?

We destroyed our heroes in the US and stopped transmitting the culture we had. We educated for a technological society with unknown values. Now may the biggest liar win and if that fails, pull out the weapons of destruction and call yourself an angel of death doing the work of God. So much for dropping education for good moral judgment and leaving moral education to the church.

↪Bret Bernhoft The problem isn't software. Software and machinery have no agency. They are tools. Whether the tools are deployed for collective benefit, or very individual benefit makes the difference. In the present world, collective benefit seems to be more accidental than intended. Mostly enterprise is directed toward corporate profit.

An axiom of Marxism is "labor creates all wealth". If substituting software and machinery for labor also creates wealth, we could -- if we so wished -- distribute the wealth created by machines among the laborers who lost their jobs.

Labor is an essential part of us; in a myriad ways, the work we do defines us -- positively as well as negatively. I have performed tedious detail work that I would have given to a machine in a flash, had one been nearby. On the other hand, creative work I have performed (not "art") was immensely fulfilling.

In a phrase: People over profit. — Bitter Crank

""we could -- if we so wished -- distribute the wealth created by machines among the laborers who lost their jobs. Yes, that is what I said, and will add to that, replacing the autocratic model of industry with a democratic model and preparing our young for reality, not superstitious myths. Never a God nor technology is going to save us.

It is not just industry working for profit, but all our bureaucracies are working for the power of the bureaucracy, and this crushes individual liberty and power. We used to laugh at communist Russia because their paperwork clogged the system making it hard to get anything done and leaving a train filled with food to rot on the tracks because no one had the required authority to move it. Now, this is a US problem with things that took 5 minutes to resolve, not getting resolved for several months.

I am trying to help a gentleman who has severe brain damage in part because of a stroke and in part because of being a victim of a crime. In over two months he still does not have a social worker, and now proving his social security number is his social security has set us back for at least another month, meaning someone who needs help could freeze to death this winter. In the past, this would have been resolved in a couple of days at the most.

I have started talking about the beast. It is a great analogy. What has changed is our bureaucratic and business organization. Now we have shortages that we never had before, and a huge homeless problem while at the same time employers can not find workers? It is like Covid turned our world upside down and dropped us causing everything to break down. Our faith in technology and failure to value our human potential and trust each other, is a huge mistake!

But does it have to be employment in the old sense of working for a boss who takes half or more of the value of your work as profit and does whatever he wants with the product? Might 'work' not be re-imagined so that independent people spend part of their time pursuing their creative endeavours, part of their time in co-operative efforts that benefit the whole community and its environment, part of it in games, social activities and entertainment, and part in solitary contemplation? — Vera Mont

I am glad you gave how we might use our time, some thought. If that is what we want then we have to change two things.

I believe capitalism is best for some things but not Laizefair capitalism built on the autocratic model. We can retain capitalism and replace the autocratic model of industry with the democratic model. I am confident the democratic model would strengthen families and reduce all social tensions because it is about being cooperative to achieve shared goals. Also, it prepares everyone for advancement increasing equality.

The second change would be replacing education for technology with the Athenian model of education that we once used. The focus of this education is good citizenship and lifelong learning. Its goal is well-rounded individual growth.

Before 1958 we used the Athenian model for education. There are two ways to have social order, authority over the people or culture. Our choice for democracy also meant liberty that was protected by education for good citizenship. In 1958 the US replaced that with education for technology and left moral training to the church. The US is now in very serious trouble!

Education for good citizenship was also education for good moral judgment. We could do that without the Bible by using literature exactly as the church uses the Bible for making good Christians, but secular literature does not depend on religious superstition. As Athens did, we created American mythology with American heroes and we destroyed those heroes and that culture when we replaced the past education with education for technology that prepares the young to be products for technology and consumers and makes them dependent on "authority and the experts". We stopped transmitting the culture that made our liberty possible. Now Christians think they created democracy! They have no understanding of democracy.

I must defend that last statement. Knowing the characteristics of democracy does not equal understanding democracy as rule by reason and what science has to do with good moral judgment. Democracy is about knowing truth and that requires education for logical thinking, not reading the Bible, and being ignorant of everything else including the transmission of a deadly virus.

Marc Andreessen can be quoted as saying, "...software is eating the world...". Another way of stating this is to say that automation is downsizing jobs across the planet. This is obviously a problem for a lot of people, especially those who become and remain unemployed because of software, Artificial Intelligence and automation more generally.

With that said, is it ethical for technological automation top be stunted, in order to preserve jobs (or a healthy job marketplace)?

This is, in my humble opinion, one of the more important dialogues that our modern society needs to be having. In some ways, we already are having this dialogue; not just here, but throughout our cultures. Technology is advancing, and people are beginning to push back. This is a tough one.
Is it ethical for technological automation to be stunted, in order to preserve jobs? — Bret Bernhoft

That depends on taxation and government spending. Our potential is to let people die in poverty or provide public assistance so everyone has a decent standard of living. Of course, if government subsidizes its population it needs revenue. If people are not working, they can not pay taxes, so now where does the government get revenue?

In the past, revenue was taken from people who had income-producing property. Income taxes came very late in the game of civilization. The computers and robots are all property. That could mean a return to taxing property simply by redefining what that means.

When the 1958 National Defense Education Act was implemented, a high school teacher explained to the class that we should plan for a future when people did not work 4-hour jobs because automation would replace the workers. Well, here we are in the automated brave new world and we are no more ready for it than we were in 1959.

Some may argue, we must not tax automation because that would retard our growth. To that, I will say industry is supported by the government. If we are not working together for the good of all, things will get very ugly, and allowing that to happen may be the best use of human intelligence.

On the other hand, employment is extremely important to ordering our lives and I am not advocating leaving people unemployed! In my later years I am experiencing the shortage of people willing to help the elderly stay in their homes. I also see a lot of environmental work that can be done and the arts could absorb a huge working force. We need new ideas for a new reality and it is very exciting to think about the civilization we could have, verses the human suffering and cruelty of our past.

I disagree that "formal logic" and "Fortran" are similarly related to language in that both represent specific uses of the language.

I see formal logic as the semantical component of language, which does not represent a structure , but a meaning, whereas Fortran is a specific syntactical language form used to convey a semantical meaning. Under any language (Fortran, French, English), you will need to adhere to a logical based semantics for coherence, but the form can vary among types of languages. That is, logic is not a language, but a component of language, whereas Fortran is a type of language.

Language is a human extension of perceptual interaction with the world, and is continuous with perception , which is already conceptual and cognitive prior to the learning of a language. Our embodied perceptual-motor interaction with the world plays a large role in the origin of the structure of linguistic grammar. Animal cognition already implies a spatial-temporal ‘grammar’.
— Joshs

This references a specific type of non-linguistic thought, specifically "how to" thought. That is, a chicken knows how to jump on the perch and likely engages in some form of non-linguistic reasoning when plotting her course from the ground, into the coop, up the ramp, and onto the perch. That is akin to much higher human non-linguistic "how to" knowledge, as when we can disassemble, repair, and reassemble an automobile transmission without putting a single action into language before acting.

Living my life with dogs, cats, goats, and chickens, I am very sympathetic to the view that animals have much higher levels of thought than people wish to give them credit for, but I don't think your reference to "perceptual-motor interaction" touches on those higher levels of animal intelligence. That is to say, I agree with you to the extent you suggest that there are all types of thought without language, but I believe your example of "how to" language points to the least controversial one that is generally conceded by the staunchest of deniers of meaningful thought without language. — Hanover

This thread needs more arguments about what language has to do with logic. What is beautiful about math is it crosses all language barriers. 2+2=4 is a universal truth, regardless of what language is spoken. Science is also about universal truths and this path of thinking appears to have begone with some Greeks and leads to the notion that humans can know truth and live by reason, instead of being ignorant and living by authority over the people.

Our understanding of logic includes our understanding of morality and the human potential. Arguing animals are logical degrades democracy and justifies autocracy. I really think equating human logic with animal logic is harmful to democracy as that throws us back to living like animals and power struggles instead of having education for the higher order thinking skills.

No processing, thus no logical processing — ucarr

Let me begin by saying I am not sure of my arguement but like you, I am trying to figure this out.

You may be on to something. Let us test it. When I was a child I wanted to fly and I had no idea why that was not possible so I kept jumping off high things hoping to fly. Is that logical thinking? Or how about if we are dying of a terrible plague? We know God is punishing us, so we appease this god by 1. sacrificing a human being. 2. Appease the god by going from town to town whipping ourselves. 3. Appease the god by killing the Jews who are an offense to Him or attack the Muslims and take back Rome, or Isreal. Is that logical thinking? Is believing in angels and demons logical thinking? Where do we draw the line between logical thinking and illogical thinking? Now if an animal runs from a fire is that logical thinking because it hopefully gets a good result? Where would be if we had always run from fire?

All logic is action/reaction; in parallel, all cognitive processing is, likewise, action/reaction. — ucarr

:chin: What is the action and reaction to a mathematical possibility that reality is multidimensional? We work with numbers and grasp quantum physics why? We understand photons and the center of the universe because we are reacting to our experiences? Right now we have a mass of people who believe the Bible is God's truth and science is not about truth so we can ignore it even when a virus is killing people. That is logical thinking? Covid and Trump has made the argument about logic a very serious one and I am so glad you are continuing this debate about logic.

Our reflexes aren't always correct? Are they ever irrational? — ucarr

:chin: What did you think when I offered ways of appeasing a god? Are those ideas rational or irrational? The video explains why they are irrational. How about Trump and how we handled a virus? Do you think everyone is behaving rationally? Or do you think the government is trying to control us and God sent Trump and is now giving us angels of death who are killing the evil politicians? Is it logical to jump off high things with the hope of flying? I think giving up on flying might be a logical choice, but those did not give up the idea, figued how to fly.

I, RusselA, Janus, Alkis Piskas and others don't disagree with you. We never have. None of us claims animal reasoning is equal to human reasoning. We're just saying the divide between animal/human isn't no-reason versus reason. Instead, we're saying the divide is between low-res reason versus high- res reason. — ucarr

I wish all those folks were still here arguing. How about, reasoning and logic are two different things? Of course the Bible is God's truth and God gave us Trump as he promises in the Bible to send us kings. And does that reasoning support democracy and rule by reason, instead of rule by authority above us? You started with learning grammar is learning logic. Is studying the Bible learning logic?

nteresting question. What I've worked out for myself, so far, is that logic, basically, is continuity parsed. Whole into parts via analysis and, in reverse, parts reconnected according to strict rules of valid continuity back to whole.

Are the instincts of humans and animals logical? I hope so. If I have survival instincts (and I do) I certainly hope they're viable and thus logical. The difference, as I say, lies between low res(olution) cognition i.e., instinct and high res(olution) cognition i.e., rationation.

We humans want to learn logic to better plan for the achievement of our sincere goals, and thus for our happiness and fulfillment. — ucarr

Do you think animalslearn logic? What does it mean to learn logic?

I so wish everyone would watch this videoIt explains why most of our thinking is not logical but reactionary like an animal perceiving and reacting.

Our understanding of animals was incorrect. The notion that animals communicate is new. The notion of animals having feelings and feelings involving hormones was non-existant. We held the belief that humans were a special creation of a god, and not like animals. As we learn more we have to resolve a lot of conflicts between old and new thinking. But I don't think we should take this so far as thinking animals are as logical as humans, in complete deinial about how the cortex makes human thinking different.

On the other hand, dogs have a sense of smell far superior to the human sense of smell, and through smell, they access a lot of information that is outside of our awareness. Insects can be superior to humans in specific ways and different animals can be superior to humans in their way. But none of them will use math and science to learn more about reality. They will not concern themselves with learning the rules of grammar.

— RussellA

That cartoon is excellent!

Even if a school caters to low-income students, it can empower such students to success with rigorous grammar lessons because logically thinking students of low income, no less than logically thinking students of high income, can successfully compete in the job market. — ucarr

I think our problem is our definition of logic and I wish others were here to discuss what is logic and do animals have logical thinking? I think you and I have agreement that humans need to learn logic. That means logic is something that is different from instinct, right? To perceive danger and react is instinctive.
Mammals instinctively care for their young. Instincts are hard-wired into the brain and this is passed on from generation to generation. Some birds learn to speak, but is it logic? I think not. Imitating another is not using logic. Exactly what is logic?

log·ic
/ˈläjik/
Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:
All
Technology
Philosophy
noun
1.
reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
"experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"
Similar:
science of reasoning
science of deduction
science of thought
dialectics
argumentation
ratiocination
2.
a system or set of principles underlying the arrangements of elements in a computer or electronic device so as to perform a specified task. — Oxford Dictionary

It might be beneficial to follow all those similar subjects. When we get to the computer explanation we are talking about programming. When we say an animal behaves in a certain way because it is hard-wired to do so, we are speaking of programming. Now we might consider is programming equal to logical thinking? I think not, AI can not think as a human thinks. And when it comes to humans, memorizing a lot of facts is not equal to logical thinking. Memorizing facts is perceiving and reacting, like a computer. If this, then that. What makes a human different is the ability to question if this and that is the only possibility. Now we have logic. There is a degree of imagination in logic.

The human difference- why is experience a better guide to this than deductive logic? What makes the human experience different from other animals and computers?

By the way, humans are not programmed for logical thinking. They only have the potential and might I say the dark ages were dark because the pagan temples that taught the rules of logic were destroyed and religion replaced logical thinking, leaving humans with instincts but not reason. At least the US is slipping into a dark age and perhaps the rest of the world as well.

Before Christianity there was Zoroastrianism. The Jews were not dualistic but saw good and evil as a continuum, more or less good or evil. Cyrus the Great was a Zoroastrian and his troops rescued the Jews from Babylon and returned them to Isreal. Then he ordered that Persia would pay to have the Jewish temple rebuilt. He saw enough sameness between Judaism and Zoroastrianism for the religions to be compatible.

A problem with Zoroastrianism is the mass filled it full of superstitious notions that ruined the original wisdom of the religion and the same happens to Christianity. The religion is all broken up with different interpretations. It is a problem that caused Constantnoble to fall because they weakened themselves by dividing and making war on each other. One side promoting superstition and the other side taking a stand against religious icons that promote superstition.

Personally, I think the best way to understand Christianity is to study all religions and mythologies that influenced Christianity. Here is a link to Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism was a dualist faith that originated in Persia, and over the years it has influenced a number of other faiths. Even though we may not recognize it today, it has been an influence on a number of world religions, especially on Christianity and Islam. Zoroastrianism is a belief system that stresses how we as human beings were meant to strive for our full potential. A primary tenet of the faith is that righteous and upstanding people will participate in the rewards of paradise, while the evil-doers will undergo punishments in hell. — Jezel Luna

Is life a continuum of good and evil or is it dualistic? I don't know if we should use the word "bad" or "evil" because the word evil implies a supernatural force. The idea that Christianity is opposed to superstitions is nuts! In the past, people feared Satan and demons as well as the jealous, revengeful, and punishing God. Today most Christians seem to be in complete denial of the evil forces, other than a quilt trip for being less than perfect and believing we need to be saved by a supernatural force.

In measurements of IQ, Asians are scoring higher than the US. Not only are they scoring higher but China's population is much larger than the US so around 2050 China will have 8 high IQ people to every 1 in the US. I think I will bet on China surpassing the US.

But what are the goals? What should we measure when we are considering success?

Here are IQ statistics https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country

In summary, both non-human animals and humans communicate using language. Non-human animal language is non-verbal, human language is both non-verbal and verbal. — RussellA

And what does that have to do with learning grammar as a path to learning higher-order logic thinking skills? I could be wrong but I think the discussion has confused language with logical thinking. Our disagreement is not about the communication skills of animals, including the human species. Our disagreement seems to be about what logic has to do with thinking foolishly or logically. Man, oh man, humans can do some really stupid things because they hold false beliefs and tend to be more emotional than logical.

I am stressing this because it has such important educational and cultural consequences. The US democracy could fall if we do not get this right.

Out of interest who says crows don't have language? Firstly they're very vocal birds and we don't understand what the purpose of such crowing and cawking means as we don't speak "crow." secondly there's non-verbal communication which interspecially is even harder to discern.

But we know ourselves that we have non verbal communication in abundance as humans:. Smiling, crying, dancing, thumbs up, high fives and the middle finger. We use our body to communicate as we do our voice.

Simply walking with an upright straight posture and chin up suggested confidence and authority while being stooped over, small with shoulders shrugged in and chin down suggests submission and lack of confidence.

I think it's prudent to assume other animals communicate in similar formats — Benj96

Excellent addition to the discussion. We can push what you said further by discussing the democratic behavior of animals. Making group decisions involves communication. However, they are not making logical arguments to persuade others to vote but physically influence the decision. I enjoyed this link

Queen bees and alpha chimps aren't voted into office, but that doesn't mean they're despots. Scientists have begun to view many animal species as de facto democracies, where majority rule ensures survival more than tyranny can. Our own species's democratic tendencies date back at least to our prehuman ancestors.

Group decision-making is a hallmark of evolutionary survival that helps maintain stable social bonds among animals. Like with humans, smaller groups of animals can often better achieve a decision-making consensus. While most species don't belabor politics like humans do, our democratic roots can be seen across the animal kingdom — which, in many cases, is more like an animal republic. — Russell McLendon

We can imagine two Tyrannosaurus rex competing for a kill and physically telling each other they are the biggest and meanest and the other one better back away. We hardly think of this creature as being logical. The OP is about grammar and its role in logic. I am not sure the communication skills of animals are the same subject as what learning the rules of grammar has to do with learning to be logical thinkers. This matters because our schools are not preparing our young to be logical thinkers. We are assuming all humans are working with logic and that just is not true. Most of the time we are reacting with as little thought to our behavior as a horse gives to his behavior. We need to be real about this and not confuse animal communication with human logical thinking.

:chin: Can birds read each other's minds and communicate with the dead and spirit world? Around the world and throughout history birds represent many things and they are also messengers from God. Let's see if they spell the power of the word. Spell a sound with supernatural power. The spoken word and creation. How far in this direction do we want to go?

The following is a link.... https://worldbirds.com/bird-symbolism/
Bird Native American Symbolism
Native American mythology and folklore speak profoundly of different kinds and species of birds serving as a connection between the human world and the spirit one. The divinities charge these winged creatures with duties like delivering messages from the Creator to us. Although the messages and the methods of delivering these messages are neutral; however, the nature of the message casts birds in different roles. This explains how some bird meanings in Native American folklore vary from villainy and jealous competitors to heroes and wise advisors.


Different Native American tribes also designate birds as their clan animal. While some clans decide to relate themselves to a specific type of bird, like the raven clan or the eagle clan, others choose to follow a more generalized approach. These clans include the following:

The Fusualgi clan or fuswvlke bird clan also known as the bird clan of the creek
The anijisqua bird clan or antisiskwa clan also known as the bird clan of the Cherokees
The feather clan of the Mi’kmaq tribe
In addition to the tribes solely dedicating themselves to these creatures as their clan animal, we can also see various bird spirit animal and bird totem crests in most northwest coast tribes. To this day, the bird totem poles proudly display artistically, creatively, and culturally significant carvings of birds like eagles, thunderbirds, and ravens, among many others.


The descendants of many Native American tribes and clan members also recall enchanting tales, legends, and stories about different species of birds. Almost all tales end with a moral conclusion to teach the value of life to their young members.

Bird Christianity Symbolism
Tribal recognition of bird symbolism is the living embodiment of what many religious scripts and leaders tell us. In other words, birds are so much more than hollow bones and feathers; they are living representations and symbols of hope and strength. Even throughout the bible, the significance of these creatures is incredibly dominating. They appear again and again, from the start till the end, sometimes as nothing but an exemplary reference while other times they play a vital role in the formation of history.

The question comes down to, what do birds symbolize in the bible?

Birds symbolize mercy, hope, and divine intervention, among other things. It is a bird that carries the Israelites to safety on her wings. It is also a bird that brings back the olive branch to Noah, signifying the end of the legendary flood. A bird also accompanied Jesus on his first temple visit. They bring bread to the prophets when they are hungry, hope when they feel defeated or alone, and relief when they feel anxious.

irds being engineered by evolution sounds remarkably teleological. Were feathers engineered by evolution for flight, or did animals having feathers discover they could fly. As Aristotle said: “…Natural things either invariably or normally come about in a given way; but of not one of the results of spontaneity or chance is this true …it follows that they must be for an end…” — RussellA

Too bad the Hebrews and then the Christians gave us a different understanding of creation and the Christians went on to kill and exterminate the pagans and heathens and destroyed the pagan temples which were places of learning, throwing us into the dark ages. But then Zeus did fear that mankind would learn all the technologies and turn their backs on the gods. For this reason, he gave Pandora a box full of mercies to slow man's progress and delay the inevitable. Christianity sure did slow our progress and I am not sure we would have recovered if old documents did not lead to the renascence and the church had not used Plato and Aristotle to justify its power and authority.

No other animal creates its reality around such notions, nor kills its own species with the notion they are doing the will of God. Bird sounds and language are not the same thing.

If we suppose a human individual sustains damage to the brain's logical component, might we suppose such person could still make grammatical utterances? However, speaking this way would now be powered by rote memory without comprehension in the manner of a parrot? — ucarr

Perfect! And that reminds me of DANIEL KAHNEMAN's explanation of fast and slow thinking. Actually thinking requires huge amounts of energy and most of the time we are running on automatic to conserve energy. That is running on memory and reacting, not in-the-moment intentional thinking. And even if we are trying to intentionally think through something, we are not very good at it unless we have learned the higher-order thinking skills. Add to that, without life experience our understanding of life is not enough for a good understanding of most things. That is why children must learn to diagram sentences and the rest of the rules of grammar and math, If you are interested there are videos and books explaining all these things and why we are prone to making bad decisions, even if we know the skills and have life experience.

Campaign ads and commercials come from years of research and experience in how to hook our attention and influence our thoughts and sense of desire.

If we suppose the opposite, namely, that a human individual sustains damage to the brain's language component, might we suppose such person could still think logically and thus form grammatical utterances in the mind's ear? However, thinking in this way would now be lopped off from the ability to voice aloud these utterances, thus requiring the person to write their communications? — ucarr

Now you are too focused on language. Every second of the day our brains with flooded with information from all sense receptors and memories, many memories that are also associated with feelings.
As you said grammar is about connections so is logical thinking. The cortex orchestrates these connections, and in the left and right brain battle for dominance, the cortex suppresses this thought or that one, so rational will dominate over desires and urges. I think at times we have all thought "I would like to beat him to a bloody pulp" but immediately that thought is followed by a stern warning that that is not acceptable behavior and will have bad consequences. :rofl: The baboon does not have the intelligence of a chimp because it has poor memory and acts on impulses like the Three Stooges.

The baboon does not have the self-control chimps have. Neither does a person with right frontal brain damage have the self-control of a normal person. PTS and a bad childhood can also exaggerate reptilian responses to life, meaning the right brain and emotions are dominant, not the left brain and logic. For this reason, and because learning the rules of grammar and math strengthen the left brain functions and can make it dominant, SCHOOLS MUST FOCUS ON THE CHILDREN LEARNING GRAMMER AND MATH, AND STOP PASS THEM TO HIGHER GRADES UNTIL THEY DROP OUT OF SCHOOL , LABELED WITH BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS AND UNWORTHY OF THE TEACHER'S TIME.

If we're looking at a permanent triad of interlinked co-functions, then it feels reasonable to conclude language permeates the entire animal kingdom. — ucarr

I have zero understanding of why you say that. Language has nothing to do with the animal world. They do not think of God and go about life as though a god will take care of them and help them win wars. Neither do they have romantic notions of love and live as though love will resolve all problems in a relationship if only s/he would be the perfect lover. With language, we imagine what should be and then take action to make things as they should be. Animals don't do this. They do not live by language as humans do.

Can you provide a definition of "hyohamous"? — ucarr

There is no such word. I was making a point about the importance of words to our thinking. When we do not have a word for our thought we can't think that thought, we can not communicate that thought to ourselves or others. Or if we have a word but not a definition which is also words, we have no understanding of the word. The point is animals are capable of human logic because they do not have the necessary words. We can not discuss quantum physics without the vocabulary.

Animals do not have the brain structure nor the vocal structure for language and surely not for logic. But they have what comes before our large cortex and ability to speak a language. The human difference has evolved but perhaps today more and more humans are being pushed out of mainstream society because they do not have the IQ's for advanced education and high-tech jobs? I am also concerned that education for technology is not adequate for all humans because we must learn how to be good citizens and we can not rely on religion for moral training because religions are not compatible with science and logical thinking.

Let me try this again. Reacting to the environment is not logical thinking. What we need here is a better understanding of what logic is and what makes the human brain different from a reptilian brain or a baboon's brain.

The logical side of the left hemisphere includes:

Logic;
Facts;
Details;
Patterns;
Strategies;
Words;
Language;
Order;
Perception;
Past & Present;
Practicality;
Safety;
Comprehension;
Logical Thinking Is Not an Inborn Talent, But Something You Can Learn and Practice
Enhancing logical reasoning is simply learning to pay a closer attention to details. Therefore, there are a few easy techniques to help you overcome thinking obstacles and really focus.

Stop Viewing Things from Your Own Perspective Only
To advance logical thinking process, it is crucial to differentiate established facts from personal observations.Concentrating on the environment and your senses is just individual perception, which mustn’t be confused with logic. — Vladimir Zivanovic

.

However, if that is not the case, I cannot understand the mechanism that originated human language, etc totally independently from any pre-existing non-human animal ability. — RussellA

Let us look at different animal brains. The following link has pictures and explanations.

Moreover, the size of the cerebral cortex is also a difference between humans' and animals' brain. Humans' brain has a disproportionately large cerebral cortex, accounting for more than 80% of the total brain mass, while the cerebral cortex of the animals' brain is comparatively small.May 7, 2019

What is the Difference Between Humans and Animals Brain — Lakna

We must understand humans do not think alike, most of our thinking is learned and few humans have developed logic skills. That is why this thread is so important! We can not understand what democracy is without learning the principles and reasoning of democracy, any more than a person could be a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist without learning and being indoctrinated.

All social animals also do a lot of learning and have the ability to transmit information, so it is not just one chimp who washes the sand off the food but the whole troop will learn to do so. We can see the logic of doing that, but imitating others is not a function of logic. To repeat the first link..
.Concentrating on the environment and your senses is just individual perception, which mustn’t be confused with logic.

The Egyptians were experts at measuring and math, however, they were not exactly logical. We make a big deal out of the Greeks because they took math further to proving what a triangle is and this moved them from superstition to science. Greek thinking was unique. They brought us to rule by reason rather than a god authority over the people. However, I can not think of math without also thinking of India and the zero. Interestingly India's math stayed superstitious believing such knowledge was given by a god, instead of holding a secular understanding of proves and logic. Believing a god gives us language or math and made humans from mud is not exactly logical thinking.

Are you suggesting, with the above, that negative effect on reasoning can sometimes occur without negative effect on language? — ucarr

Several areas of the brain are involved with the ability to use language. However, right frontal lobe brain damage really messes up a person's ability to reason, and I don't think this necessarily means a loss of language. It is more along the line of connections between different parts of the brain and it is the frontal cortex that separates us from animals. Animals can make sounds that communicate alarm, a call for a mother, sexual attraction, excite calling everyone to come and eat. That is not conceptual thinking nor equal to human reasoning which is a matter of making associations, what happens in the cortex. This is what makes your statement "Grammar introduces all speakers to logic." so true.

Frontal Lobe Syndrome - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelfhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › books › NBK532981
by L Pirau · 2021 · Cited by 21 — Frontal lobe syndrome is a broad term used to describe the damage of higher functioning processes of the brain such as motivation, planning, ...
‎History And Physical · ‎Differential Diagnosis · ‎Enhancing Healthcare Team... — Letitia Pirau

The importance of a healthy brain able to connect signals from different areas compliments what you said about the importance of the connections made with grammar and knowing how a word fits into a sentence.

IE, pre-language, the crow has the necessary concepts required for language. — RussellA

Hypotheticals — RussellA

Reacting to our environment is not equal to logical thinking. Reacting to a warning cry is not equal to thinking, as we can observe in dogs that bark at every sound regardless of how much it is punished for this behavior. Some dogs do not distinguish between a thief and a mailperson. They are not thinking, only reacting.

Perhaps some experiments will help in understanding thinking. If you have some time try thinking about hyohamous and tell me the meaning and value of it. Do you understand hyohamous as well as you understand Hypotheticals, or is your ability to under one and the other different? Now grab an electric wire and ten minutes later grab the wire again. Was the experience the same both times? What changed? An alligator will endure an electric shock once its teeth get hold of meat but if it does not have the taste of meat, it will pull away from the shock. It can take several shocks before the alligator stops its attempts to get the meat. What concepts does the alligator understand?

We're told humans have dominion over animals. Maybe pets receive God's presence through humans? When a pet takes instruction from human to do a good deed, or when a pet, on its own initiative, does a good deed, such as save an endangered human, is that not a pet_God connection? — ucarr

That depends on one's definition of God. I really hope this thread stays focused on scientific facts and logic. The only thing that clearly separates humans from other mammals and social animals is the ability to come up with a concept such as the concept of gods, and behave as though this intangible reality is a tangible reality. No other animal would do that.

So now, if you be cognitive individual, you practice motion + intent. Speaking in the vernacular, we call this finding food, shelter & fire. Following closely upon the tail of the basic three come the secondary three: finding love, family & community. The lotus in the garden of the magic seven is, finally, finding cosmos, which means, colloquially, practicing unselfish love for others. — ucarr

Yes, all animals including humans are preprogrammed for those things, however, there are some differences between reptiles and mammals. Mammals have more parenting instincts than reptiles and among the mammals, some are better programmed for social behavior than others. Bonobos are more like humans than chimps and chimps have a better memory than baboons, leading to chimps having better social instincts than baboons.

Being a human with cognitive abilities does not necessarily mean thinking conceptionally and only that ability separates humans from the rest of the animals. I work with cognitively challenged people so I am seeing language is not enough for conceptual thinking and you begin with an argument about reasoning. Our ability to reason is very low when we are children and improves with age. However, brain damage can also prevent us from having the ability to reason, so reasoning is more than having language. If we can not grasp complex concepts, we can not reason well. This is certainly true for those with right frontal brain damage and those suffering from dementia.

IE, human language is not of a different kind to animal communication, but rather, human language has built on what already pre-existed. — RussellA

Sure everything about being human is built on what already existed. But not all humans can reason, as I explained. Being able to reason through complex concepts is unique to humans, and there are humans who function at the level of animals, incapable of reasoning.

Grammar introduces all speakers to logic. This is my central claim. — ucarr

Yes, Grammar introduces logic. And if people do not learn grammar they do not learn good logic. Math is also an important path to logical thinking. Children should learn the rules of grammar and math if we want them to grow up with the skills for logic. Teaching grammar and logic to the masses was not possible before the twentieth century. Since mass education, humans have been on a different path than the religiously controlled path they were on, because now they hold many different concepts as true and important.

I consider your OP to be one of the most important subjects for us to discuss. Nothing is more important than education and education for technology is not giving us the education we need to be civil and logical human beings.

It seems that the crow is using cognition. If the crow has no language, then it is using cognition outside of language. — RussellA

The crow will never explain the universe nor construct a society dependent on technology. Animals can not know logos because they do not have the complex language as humans have complex languages that can express reasoning. Animals can communicate but that is not the same as conceptualizing and reasoning which are dependent on language. Now if they can teach each other sign language or evolve to have language such as humans have, then they be able to conceptualize as humans do. That ability is dependent on language, and our ancestors may not have had language.

Our problem here is language. Does logic mean the ability to respond correctly to stimulus or does in it me the ability to conceptualize and communicate concepts to others?

Animals do not have gods and neither did early man because a god is a concept, and is not manifested in nature. We need terminology that distinguishes the difference between figuring out how to get food or evade a predator, and figuring out how to create and use technology. Language is essential to the conceptual reality we have created for ourselves.

Not all languages can lead to manifesting the technology we have, but suspect they can all manifest a concept of god. Sumerians could never have the technology we have today because they did not have the necessary concepts and words for classifying trees are different from bushes and something living is different from being inanimate.

By adding to the solutions, by reducing the problems, sticking your finger in the hole in the sea wall, if you can help stop the flood or help clean up afterwards.
By each of us feeling/taking the responsibility and having the empathy to do what you can when you can, just like you exemplify every day.
Out of little acorns, big Oak tree's grow. The only help I think the folks on TPF can offer you is textual/human support unless they stay near you. Perhaps even some financial support, if you can get involved in some kind of crowdfunding/fund raising efforts which would directly support the local help initiatives you are trying to participate in.
I was watching a show about Chile recently and a woman was trying to feed 70 local kids every day using mostly her own limited pay she gets as a nurse and some local charity she was getting a little help and money from. Again, the likes of she, you and the schoolgirls in Iran are what helps convince me that there is great hope for the future of the human race. — universeness

I immediately flashed back to a time when I felt like an infected boil on the face of the earth. To clarify what I said, I don't think I could have felt any lower. I had no self-esteem and no sense of power and I unintentionally hurt a young woman who felt just as low as I did. When I learned I had hurt her I was shocked, because I didn't think I had the power to do that.

At another time also during the 1970 recession. I had begun hoarding and was not eating or heating my home. I lost so much weight, I had to cheat the scales when I sold plasma by wearing very heavy clothing. My daughter questioned my behavior and it shocked me. I slumped to the floor in front of the cold wood stove and realized I had forgotten how to think middle class. I was afraid if I used what we had there would be no more, like the crazy people we heard of from the Great Depression.

I think my point is, I was not always as self-confident as I am today. The girls in Iran are caught up in the history of their time, as I was when I thought I was a hippie, but during the recession when people were losing their homes and businesses, we were not united in an effort to improve things. We were alone as we slowly sank to the bottom.

Shit, I don't know what I am trying to say but you have made me think.

Wow, I love you guys and the thinking you make me do. :heart:

Why should we create people that must be united in the first place. What right do we have to create new people? Legitimate question. Go back to the root. First principles. Why we make others work, go through the treadmill of life. What right we have to make others do this. All people have in this forum as a response to these questions is snark and sarcasm..the refuge of those without a rational response. — schopenhauer1

One of my favorite professors was a sociologist and he gave us a textbook explaining we live by social agreements. Instinctively we desire to be accepted and it is nice if we are also valued. We can neither if we do not understand the social rules and comply with them. We sure can not have liberty without a willingness to know and follow social rules. Even chimpanzees require following social rules. Social animals depend on each other and they have social rules. If a chimp refuses to obey the rules, the chimp is pushed to the outer circle where it is more likely to be eaten by a predatory, or the misbehaving chimp may be driven away and forced to seek a new group it if survives long enough to do that.

Tribes share a mythology and Joseph Campbell said the purpose of a mythology is to prepare the young to be adult members of the tribe. This is vital to our mental health and it is devastating when we invade an aboriginal territory and destroy their way of life.

Please question what I have said and I will try again to give you a rational response.

The problems started as a residue from our time in the wilds. The process and means by which the first nefarious few were allowed to become an established malignant infestation, is simply the story of how the first nefarious King/Queen/Messiah/chief/community leader came to be, and allowing such to become established and prosper, was the greatest mistake in human history. — universeness

I blame patriarchy for the division of those who have power and those who do not. It is my understanding matriarchies have a family order but not the hierarchy of power and authority that men seem to prefer. I have often been surprised by the male concern of ownership. A few things are special to me but when I live with others almost everything is ours.

You mention a residue from our time in the wilds. I assume you accept evolution. How about male and female differences? I think we all agree other animals are ruled by their hormones. How about people? Do you think they are also ruled by their hormones?

The establishment of nefarious group leaders is a bit of a fascination to me. Greeks did not conquer the world as the Romans did. We seem to think the Romans were superior, but really? Intellectually at least Athens was superior. I have read the Greeks and those living in Celtic territory got along just fine, but the Romans enslaved everyone.

Certain philosophers from Socrates to Nietzsche explained the gross deficienies of democracy, while the more collectivist philosophers like Hegel and Marx portrayed it as the salvation of mankind. — Merkwurdichliebe

Yes and let us have a symposium to talk about these different philosophies! Hum, this forum has repeatedly made me want to go to the coast and invite the public to discuss philosophy. In the inland city, people are too busy for symposiums but in the coastal city, life is slower and there are many retired people. This time, I am seeing perhaps a more viable to do a symposium. There is a community center at the coastal city nearest to me. I have time to visit there before the snow storms come and crossing the mountains is a bad idea.

I love your grouping of the two sides to the issue.

Man, when I was young and full of energy, I was also ignorant and bored out of my mind. Now my head is so full and I can get the meaning of what the people here are saying, and I am so excited about what is possible, but I don't have the courage nor the energy to act on what is possible. :sad:

It is important to think about how the various people, especially those who have 'cognitive' problems are affected by changes which are occurring. At times, when I struggle with online communication and forms I begin to doubt my own cognitive abilities, so what must it be like for people who are really unable to read and write. Some have support and some don't.

Whether it is due to cognitive or other difficulties, it may be that an underclass is developing, of people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream. It is probably not an entirely new development but as life gets more digitalised and 'faster' there may be greater exclusion of those who find it hard to compete in the fight for resources. In the case of the most downtrodden, they may be less able to argue for their rights and be cast outside of agendas for arguing for their rights, and be a silent minority on the periphery or edge of society. — Jack Cummins

And those who do have support are nicely dressed and well-mannered and can do simple jobs. Oh dear, I am feeling emotional about this as I struggle with my present circumstance of trying a help a man with brain damage. It is obvious he comes from a good family and does not identify with the common street person who is unlikely to have a supportive family. With his sister and cousin who live far away, we trying to provide a support system but here I am again needing to talk to people in person and no one is in the office. Our systems are running against giving these people the support they need.

Yes, you are on to something, because those who have cognitive and emotional problems are "people who just are a bit outside the parameters of the mainstream". Most likely they never had a supportive family and know only poverty, do not how to think middle class. I worked for an organization that educates and trains cognitively challenged people and also the homeless in general and there is a huge difference between those who had supportive families and those who did not. Those who had supportive families have all the benefits society can give these people. They usually have government support in the form of monthly checks. They are often put in foster homes for adults. They get all the training and social actives that help them fit into society. This is a point I really need to make when I address the Oregon legislature. Thank you for how you worded the problem, the words I bolded.

I have said this before, your thinking is so valuable to the whole of society, and I hope you find your niche. Perhaps working for a politician who wants to solve the problems. You have the insight and wording they need to understand the problem. You are a bridge between those who have only a mainstream awareness and those who don't.

I am a socialist, a humanist, and I damn the nefarious rich and powerful to destruction.
I want economic parity for all humans, from cradle to grave. — universeness

I do not agree with hating the rich because that is like hating someone because of their color. However, I think we all could be improved with knowledge of how to play the economic power game. How does it work? I wonder if we do not teach high school youths about economics because those in control really do not want the masses to know. Or maybe it is because most high school students are nowhere near ready to comprehend economics and struggle just to have some awareness of personal finances. Or maybe no knows enough to make economics a part of the high school curriculum?

Some high schools gave students a little knowledge of how to start a business and we have volunteers that provide information to people wanting to start a business such as the Small Business Bureau and Junior Chamber of Commerce.

The rich have provided jobs and built the economy of cities and I am very glad we have these people. Maybe the whole game is not fair but we are darn lucky to have people who do start industries and run them.

In 1917 teachers were proud to teach democracy and about uniting to get things done. That would be fraternities, granges, and unions. For me, everything comes back to education. How should we prepare our young for citizenship?

It's not easy, that's all! I dunno how we can show the fly the way out of the bottle. Maybe that's precisely what we shouldn't be do, oui mon chéri? — Agent Smith

That means liberty, doesn't it? But I am watching a show about a man who works with the homeless and it is so discouraging because the homeless in this show have lost all hope and trust in others. However, he rescues them and sends them home to family. My sister has done that too. I got a man I helping in touch with his family.

I think we are putting our faith in technology instead of family and that leaves people dependent on the state and that is not working as these people get so lost and become like feral cats. So liberty can lead to bad things. I am struggling with these thoughts. Can you help me? How can we bring out the best in people and reduce social problems?

↪Athena All models are wrong to the extent that every rule has exceptions. — Agent Smith

Okay, go on. You are being very tantalizing.

Years ago I became aware of a bureaucratic effort to get staff to do more independent thinking and problem-solving after a long period of control from the top, making workers afraid of doing independent thinking. This is a home issue.

What is the best way to Utopia? Liberty and power of the individual or autocratic direction from the top?
Industry, Christianity, and the military are autocratic. What is left to manifest liberty and power of the individual?

We used to laugh at Russia for its failures resulting from too much red tape and now, in the US, nothing can be done without the red tape. We have achieved this power of government and everything is breaking down.

So are the poor sods they are supposed to be helping! Perhaps they are not overwhelmed with heavy workloads but overwhelmed by their unfair circumstances. I absolutely agree, that there are many good people working in the social care system but there are many f***wits as well! There is no question that they are over worked, under paid and way under-resourced and the real culprits are the politicians in power. The pressure must come from the people who must move 'en masse' to pressure those in power and demand significant improvement to the social care system, on threat of removal from power. — universeness

Like I just said to Jack Cummins, how did things get so bad! I swear before the pandemic, I could call my Senior and Disability Services case worker and she answered her phone and in 5 minutes the problem would be resolved. Now no one answers the phone and calls are not returned in a timely manner. When I studied public policy and administration at the U of O it was said when someone is having a problem keeping up with the demands of a job, hire another person. Now the focus has shifted from getting the job done to cutting costs.

We were lucky and got a great doctor who has a great social worker and she is aware of the phone problem and will use her position of being inside the system to get the Senior and Disability Services to do what should have been done two weeks ago. In the meantime we are taking steps to add the gentleman to my renter's contract and the division of housing assistance has okayed him staying in my home so I am no longer in danger of losing my own housing, However, this may be turning into more of a commitment than I wanted to make. I thought this was going to be a temporary situation. My apartment is too small for me and it sure is not enough space for two people over a long period of time.

What can I say but this has been a learning experience and EVERYONE is helping me think through what I will say to the state legislature when there will be a public hearing after the beginning of the next year. The only thing I feel sure about is these people should not be left on the streets to fend for themselves!!! We must not allow the neglect of our children and challenged people and the elderly. Yes, we have many services and assistance programs but they are overwhelmed and the needs are not being met. On the good side, I have been allowed to help him without fear of eviction and in the beginning, I didn't think that was possible.

Now my concern has shifted from fear of eviction to a question of how long will this last. He likes Fox News and the 700 Club and I can't stand those shows. My computer is right next to the TV and he sleeps on the floor in the living room. I am trying to think of a way of rearranging my home so I can stay in my bedroom and he can do his thing in the living room. I hate waking him in the morning by getting on my computer and then he turns on the TV and talks to me and I can't focus on the forum. Perhaps I am spoiled because of having a home all to myself. Around the world, people live with so much less and perhaps I should work on being the person I want to be instead of being discontent with a situation I made happen.

A socialist? I advocated for the homeless in the 80's to get homeless people out of my home and here I am again.

Similar to words I typed previously, one set of hands, held out, opened and pushed forwards can do little to protect individuals from a cold blowing wind but if many other hands joined you then things can get better. It's very old but it's still very true..... UNITED, WE STAND! DIVIDED, WE FALL! — universeness

Yes, together we can do more and we can create a better reality and that is what democracy is about. Hum, what philosophers might I read to have a better understanding of working together?

↪Athena
I am so sorry to hear that you are possibly facing eviction and I am danger of being evicted too. The circumstances of my own is that the landlord where I am has left the country. I didn't know that he was subletting from an agency, and he had not been paying the rent to them recently. The real owner wishes to have the house back and, originally we were all meant to move in August but are still there paying rent. I am looking for accommodation on a daily basis and it is so hard to find anything apart from shabby overpriced tiny rooms from rogue landlords, who don't even give proper tenancy contracts. At the beginning I was confident about finding somewhere but have been panicking more in the last couple of weeks.

It is rather ironic that both of us who were writing about your concern about a man at the beginning of the thread are fearing eviction and potential homelessness. My general feeling is that life has become much harder in the last few years and, increasingly, people care less about others. So many people are struggling, the gulf between the rich and the poor is increasing and, often, people are being treated as mere numbers.

Anyway, I am trying to keep my inner strength and I hope that you keep strong. I hope that you don't get evicted and I will continue looking for somewhere because I think that the owner and agency will give myself and the others here a certain amount of time to find somewhere. — Jack Cummins

So true and you have experience with people who have cognitive problems! If you and I find the system is going against us, how much worse it must be for people with cognitive problems? You know what to do but people like the person I am helping, do not. We think of those people as the problem, but when we experience the problem ourselves we realize something has gone very wrong. I thought it would be easy to get this man into a rented bedroom because he has an income, but to my horror, bedrooms are hundreds of dollars more than the last time I checked.

It isn't just that we have a housing crisis but dealing with bureaucrats has become much harder. It is like since the pandemic everything has gotten worse.

You keep me aware that this is not just in the US. Did our faith in technology lead us into these problems? Or is the problem overpopulation and real shortages of land and timber to build homes? I think many of us are in shock. Our quality of life seems seriously threatened. What you said about those in control of the rentals is frightening. On top of everything else is worry about being scammed and taken advantage of. We have something called Craigslist and people are claiming to have rentals and are taking people's money for fees when they have no rental but are just cheating people. I swear we did not have this problem before. The shortage of housing has led to people being victimized because they hurry up and pay those fees afraid someone else will get the rental before they do. They are paying without meeting the scammer or seeing the rental.

↪Athena It's as I used to say, messy. All models are wrong. — Agent Smith

I would really like to know what you mean about all models being wrong. Time and again, I am realizing things are the same and not the same. For example, we all want to think we are caring people and for some, that means being socialist and for others, socialism is the great evil. But what are we talking about when we use labels? Many things appear to be different shades of the same thing but we are under the illusion that we have no agreement.

The Greeks didn't have all these labels and they argued about values and truths. Have we created a communication problem that might be resolved?