It never was, though its spokesmen have loudly proclaimed the very pinnacle of the democratic ideal. At the moment, nobody believes it. Indeed, a number of far-right commentators have declared that "too much democracy" is detrimental to democracy.
But that's not what universeness was talking about. Not everybody is preoccupied with the USA, and he especially has a global, rather than national, vision:

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were.
— Athena

don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done?
— Athena

Very simply by every vote having exactly the same value as every other. That way, when everyone votes for their own self-interest, the majority decision is always in favour of what's best for the majority - in policy, law-enforcement, services, infrastructure, economic disparity, production and distribution. That's exactly why any efforts at cleaning up the electoral system is invariably followed by a right-wing backlash: functional democracy tends inevitably toward permissive secular socialism. — Vera Mont

Thank you for calling my attention to the fact I omitted a word in that post. I have corrected that.

I hate the argument over if the US is a democracy or not but we have fought every war for nothing if we do not believe we are a democracy.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." General Report of the Seminar on "What is democracy" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

Our form of government is a republic. This relationship of social order and political order is sometimes called a democratic republic. Germany had a much more authoritarian republic especially after Hitler took over. All along the Prussians had been consolidating their power controlling Germany and applying Prussian military bureaucratic order to the government and economic order. You know the Industrial Military Complex of Germany and later became the Industrial Military Complex of the US.

Sorry, I have to run...

I think humanity as a whole has been serving the machinery of the masters of war for too long.
One day that will stop (and we won’t even need to throw out most of the machines). — 0 thru 9

Thank you. The USA defended its democracy against a nation that was also a republic but became very authoritarian and became a mechanical society that crushed individual liberty and power as it prepared to rule the world, or at least all of Western civilization. Following the Second World War, the US adopted the bureaucratic order we stood against, and adopted the German model of education for technology for Industrial and Military purposes. As centralized government gains more and more power of authority over everything, we too are becoming a mechanical society, with businesses and institutions operating in fear of that central power.

I don't think we understand what technology has done to power and our liberty. In the past, everyone was prepared for self-government, and to be civic and Industrial leaders. That made our system of elections and representatives workable. That is no longer true. The real power of government today is policies that take care of our every need as Tocqueville warned in 1830. Policies are made by government committees and all we have to do is obey. No longer do we need to be prepared for good judgment and independent action. That is a bureaucratic technology change. We left moral training to the church in 1958.

I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

How is that done?

Why should it need to? In a functioning democracy, if the majority desires freedom of self-expression and respect for the individual, diversity is automatically provided-for. If the majority desires equality before the law and of opportunity, class malleability is assured. I don't see the problem with a democratic system being able to maintain a basic standard of living and autonomy for every citizen. — Vera Mont

I do not know about other democracies but in the US a significant number of people insist the US is not a democracy. Some churches, the military, and Industry in the US follow England's autocratic order. The autocratic order is a hierarchy of authority, not shared power. If the US replaced autocratic Industry with a democratic model, it would have a much stronger democracy, and better economy, and much better family lives. It would be such a strong and united nation that the words of Roosevelt would ring true. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

The Jews must be admired because no matter what happens to them, they remain Jews. Unfortunately, that is not true of our democracy.

I am not convinced of freedom of self-expression being a good thing. That could include loading up with weapons and killing everyone in sight. We are not condoning that, but neither are we closing that possibility as we could with a culture that was firmly against such behavior. Right now we are cheering on power as the ultimate goal and the Republican party may or may not learn how destructive that is. We live in perilous times. We have come to believe freedom of speech means saying or doing anything we want with absolutely no concept of what morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.

Freedom to reason needs to be protected with education for good moral judgment. Freedom to do or say anything we want without good moral judgment is barbaric, not civilized.

Living together successfully based on a foundation of lies and fables is not my idea of wisdom. — universeness

Ah, ah, ah what is wrong with fables! :confused: Fables are excellent for teaching virtues and passing on culture. They serve a purpose and are not considered the word of God. Whereas believing a God promised His chosen people land and that they were to kill every man, woman, and child already inhabiting the land, is very problematic! This little false story could suck us all into a world war that could be global and far more destructive than any previous war because of all those who believe they are doing the will of this imagined God.

I don't understand this. What three 'models' of humans? How does a universal standard of living, rights, freedoms and opportunity not allow for gender diversity? — Vera Mont

Right, a democracy encourages diversity but not necessarily gender diversity. Some people insist the US is not a democracy but a republic. I think those people tend to be conservative Republicans and a threat to democracy. It seems they base their opinions on the Bible which is about a kingdom with slaves and for sure gender restrictions.

The three stereotypes of the upper, middle, and lower class are another way to hold expectations of each other, and social pressures do tend to affect everything, especially when there is no understanding of democracy being an idealogy that organizes our way of life. Reverses how kingdoms organize a way of life.

Many theists present their faith that god exists, as fact that god exists.
The burden of proof therefore lies with them.
If their response to a question such as 'do you know for a fact that a god exists?' or 'do you believe with a 100% confidence level that a god exists?' is yes, then they have the burden of proof.
I have watched theists who try to deflect this in debate after debate, many many times with atheists on-line, and they have been trounced, every time they try to reject the burden of proof.
So much so, that I rarely now hear the theist side, reject that onus. They now try to bolster and rehash the poor evidence they think they have, such as Kalam arguments about the universe must have a cause and god is the only one that makes sense or they point to scriptural evidence or personal experience / god encounters or even worse evidence such as NDE's. — universeness

I have found everyday Christians find the existence of God be a fact. That is because every time something good happens, they thank God for that. I think in their minds there can not be goodness without a God providing it. This can go as far as believing without God, their savior, we can not be good. There are so many false beliefs that go with Christianity I avoid debating if there is a God and take on the other false beliefs.

I was blown away when the woman I was playing Scrabble with announced she thought she was wrong when she was a child and told her parents we should not kill. She went on to mention the Hebrews fight for the promised land that justifies all wars of us against them. And she justifies this by saying, that when the Bible says we are not to kill, the word "murder" should have been used not the word "kill". Wars fought in the name of God are wars we should fight, and with this logic goes unquestioned assurance that Muslims are wrong when they fight for Allah. The debate over whether a God exist is futile because of how a Christian sees proof of God every day, but perhaps debating other false ideas can get good results. Just not in a senior center where are supposed to be civil with each other.

As long as the place does not remind anyone of the Berghof :scream: and I can get there without adding to the problems of climate change :scream:
Do you think we humans could create a guidance book that became as popular or more popular than the bible or the quran, but provided well-chosen 'what if,' scenarios and gave sound, robust, advice on what to do next. Would such a book be too big? Would a knowledge-based electronic hand-held computer system be better? Could a 'ziggy' type device be created to help humans deal with all situations they might face in life :chin: :grin: :lol: — universeness

That is what we are working on here. Religions work because they make people feel good and give them rules for living together successfully. More than one book was written for that purpose and those books served people well for centuries. The problem for Western civilization is being literate in Democracy means being literate in a library full of books and this is not manageable as the Bible and the Quoran are managable. However, if we can get past our tribalism we might acknowledge all religious books work for the same reasons. They all teach the same basic things and perhaps a more scientific approach to these books can become one book that works well for everyone.

The Greeks appear to have gotten this secular ball rolling with the notion of logos and our human potential to be heroes and logical and capable of self-government. Their equivalent bible is Homer's books, The Iliad and the Odyssey.

Homer's epic poems shaped aspects of ancient Greek culture and education, fostering ideals of heroism, glory, and honor.[7] To Plato, Homer was simply the one who "has taught Greece" (τὴν Ἑλλάδα πεπαίδευκεν, tēn Helláda pepaídeuken).[8][9] In Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, Virgil refers to Homer as "Poet sovereign", king of all poets;[10] in the preface to his translation of the Iliad, Alexander Pope acknowledges that Homer has always been considered the "greatest of poets".[11] From antiquity to the present day, Homeric epics have inspired many famous works of literature, music, art, and film.[12] — Wikipedia

Our books need to be books we carry with us and hold in our hands and require no technology because we need to prepare for a possible collapse of our high-tech society.

I cry as well because everyone seems desperately unhappy, stressed, and pressured.
Lucky are those who have some temporary peace and sanity. (I say temporary because ‘the shit can hit the fan’ at any moment).
Not just adults… even little children.

So if we are starting life under a constant thunderous barrage, education and wisdom have trouble even being heard, let alone being followed. — 0 thru 9

:rofl: My sister and I are dealing with old age problems. And we are nearing Thanksgiving and dealing with the reality of pretty serious family problems. It is hard to know which problems are the most urgent and demanding of my attention. I am reading as much as I can about dealing with personal and international problems and so far the best advice I have come across is to focus on the facts. However, I am also paying attention to how I feel and acting on the importance of having good feelings. What we think about everything, to a large degree, depends on how we feel.

At this time in my life, I am so aware of how our feelings affect our judgment and fortunately, I am a whole lot better at staying calm and happy. What if we helped children discover ways to be happy and ways to do good in the world? I have a problem with a previous post about education for technology. Sure we need that technology to make it possible for so many people around the world to survive, but we might even be coming to an end of what this technology can do for us. No matter what, perhaps the most important thing for us to know is how to be happy and share that happiness with others.

If the world considered the golden rule of doing unto others as we would have them do to us, might we resolve our problems peacefully? I think we should hold anyone who does not follow the golden rule accountable. Israel was not treating Palestinians as they themselves want to be treated. The United Nations knew that and did nothing about it. If you have to use weapons to get control of land, something is wrong and it is not the defenders of the land. :heart: And while I write this I am thinking of ways to achieve peace and harmony in my family. That may not be any easier than stopping the escalation of wars. But darn it anyway, I think we could improve education so everyone has a better approach to dealing with life. That needs to trump education for technology. We live a long time, so there is plenty of time to learn technology after we learn how to enjoy life.

Do you think our species needs such a foundational model, to be able to obtain a broad global standard of being, for all humans? — universeness

That would not be fun. Having 3 models for humans or only one just doesn't work for me. It does not go with you can be anything you want to be and right now that includes sexual differences beyond what I thought the choices were.

I volunteered at the annual Holiday Bazaar in the used book room and bought way too many books. One of them is "Quantum, Shift in the Global Brain How the New Scientific Reality Can Change Us and Our World" by Ervin Laszlo. I really want to know what has to say because today is nothing like the past and this changing is going to continue. If you want you can join me in a mountain retreat and we can share books and give some thought to your question.

I love Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D.'s books about the gods in every man and goddesses in every woman. These are archetypes and she provides a brilliant explanation of these archetypes that are set when we are children and evolve in different set ways.

Out of time :groan: I want to refer back to my grandmother's 3 rules and learning virtues. I think one book could be enough but it would have to include the new social order called democracy. :heart: I love you all and I have to run.

Well for me, they just clearly show how ridiculous and stupid, soooooo much of what we think are essential cultural differences between us, are. Such are really, historically, self-imposed utter nonsense and false moral standards. The most offensive and disappointing for me, is those who I politically care about most, and empathise with most, who will say and think stuff, such as 'I know my place,' 'I am a smelly serf.' I am further annoyed by the audience laughter (piped or live) caused by a comment such as 'I have 8 kids but I'm not married.' — universeness

I loved those stereotypes and I think we have a lot to gain by being aware of them. During the Great Recession when OPEC embargoed oil to the US, I forgot how to think middle class. I came to see those who make the laws and enforce them as the enemy of the people. This was not just an emotional thing, but I actually went to the library at the local university and went through the abstracts looking for information. I found we have laws to protect the middle class, and if this means the have-nots and people on the margin of society have less of a chance, too bad. I advocated for the homeless when Reagan was in office and learned our representatives have a middle-class mentality and think a public golf course was more in line with what the voters wanted than shelter for the homeless. That has since changed and my community is doing a lot for the homeless. Darnit there is too much to say.

When the recession ended I went back to college and I felt like a Black person. My God, I realized how middle-class college education can be. I was even reported to the dean for asking inappropriate questions because the head of the department and also professor of several classes, was a real ass and I kept calling him on that. I do not mean to demean people of color but I want to say how totally and disgustingly horrible a college education can be for the same reason that back in the day, our city council members thought the voters wanted a golf course. As human beings, our awareness of others is very poor!

Our prejudices and stereotypes are survival tools. Please have mercy on us. Our brains absolutely can not handle all the information that is essential so our brains take shortcuts. Now can we speak of culture? I say too much so I will stop at repeating my school teacher's 3 rules.

1. We respect everyone because we are respectful people. That one rule could have given us a totally different history.
2. We protect the dignity of others, including our own dignity.
3. We do everything with intrigue.

The most important thing children have to learn is the virtues and if we do not learn the virtuals we will not manifest a good democracy. Ignorant people should not have the power of the vote and a democracy must have universal education to prevent social, economic, environmental, and political problems. However, it is very problematic to restrict who votes, but we can educate the people and this does not mean specializing them as doctors, physicists, engineers, etc.. It means learning concepts essential to a healthy nation.

Thanks very much! :pray: :smile:

I wonder what would happen if either democracy or Christianity were ever actually and truly manifested?

Democracy’s brand name is wearing thin.

I can at least dimly imagine a possible Christianity that is not power-mad and judgmental and very Old Testament driven, with a tendency towards random Bible verse dogma and hypocrisy. — 0 thru 9

Thank you :cry: I cry because I have such a different understanding of democracy and it seems futile to convey my different way of thinking about it. Can we begin with Socrates and his concern that if we are not mature and self-aware and focused on morality things will not go well? Democracy is rule by reason and if we are not prepared for that, we can not manifest that.

Those who fought for democracy were literate in Greek and Roman classics and no one saw democracy in the bible until enough people were literate in the classics to have a concept of democracy. A hugh problem comes with "how do we make people civilized"? We did not have free public schools nor the budget for them. But we had churches and if we could keep these Christians from killing each other, we could leave moral training to the church. Eventually... we made it law that communities must provide education and children could not work during the school hours.

We finally got our heads around the importance of education, but really? What should children learn? Who is the best person to decide that? How is this information to be taught? What does all this have to do with being self-governing? What is democracy and how is it manifested?

Yes, that's why it's taught in grades of increasingly specialized complexity and application. But if you start early showing students how to use numbers, measurement, proportions and ratios in their own areas of interest, and they are confident in mastery of the concepts, they (especially the girls) will be less averse to math in higher grades. The scientifically or mathematically gifted will discover their ability early on, while the others come to understand the reliability of exact knowledge, (such as climatologists and epidemiologists demonstrate, rather than the wild 'estimates' politicians throw out at random) If they see the purpose and usefulness of numeracy they'll be far less easily duped by stratagems like $ .99 pricing and government boondoggles. — Vera Mont

The book you recommend looks interesting and because of this discussion with you, I bought a copy of "A History of Women in America" by Janet L. Coryell and Nora Faires". That one starts with a story of a Native American woman who ruled over much of North America and the barbaric Spanish led by Hernando de Soto. For me, this is a story about the importance of culture and the ugliness of being barbaric. And it is not technology that makes humans civilized. A child who learns to build bombs and kills his parents and then shoots up teachers and his peers in a high school is not a desired addition to society and this is very much a result of the change in education and change in our understanding of freedom of speech and what it means to be civilized. However, telling a more exact history, a history that includes our wrongs is a good thing, or learning of cultures that did well until we arrived is a good thing.

For the math, just yesterday my daughter was talking about the impossible challenge of parents trying to help their young learn math. I think this math turn has important social consciences and is as great a failure as the "see and say" method of teaching reading. In fact, the new math failed so badly it is being replaced with another new math. New math left many mathematically illiterate just as the "see and say" method of teaching reading left many illiterate and hating reading because they failed so badly.

What is exact knowledge? I believe those who think they can know absolute truth are absolutely dangerous, and that this mentality is bringing us down. For sure this mentality can not possibly give us a better society. I have an excellent book on the seriousness of math illiteracy and I could be wrong but I think sticking to old math, art, and music and building on this triad foundation can correct the problem of math illiteracy and make everyone's lives richer in a pleasurable way that also unites us.

There is practical math that is applied to life and math for technology that leaves most mathematically ignorant but is great for the few who go on to college educations that is about having a high tech job. I am out of time or I post a link that explains this better than I can.

That's because of your mind-set, instilled by a culture in which men were alienated from their families, very much to the detriment of men, families and the culture. — Vera Mont

Oh my, you excite me so much! We need a good book about what Industrialization and war have done to our values and relationships. I worry that concepts such as exploiting workers, servants and slaves and admiration for those who get rich doing so are not so clear to everyone.

When the US entered WWI Industry argued in favor of closing schools as many countries at war had done. Industry argued it was not getting its money's worth from education because it still had to train new employees. Teachers argue it was our nation's very best who understood why democracy must be defended, who were the first to sign up to defend our democracy and even if we won the war we would be devastated if education did not replace these men.

Yes, it was common to man our factories with very young people who were cheap and if we closed our schools, that would end the child labor laws that took children out of factories during school hours. Vocational training was added to education at this time and this greatly increased the number of parents who sent their children to school so they could get better jobs, and it greatly increased the middle class as education led to better jobs, better working conditions, and better wages. The history of child labor in England is even worse because of greater poverty and there was no western frontier for the poor to escape into.

Yipes too much to say- Industry and war did alienate men from their families and modeling our Industry with Britain's automatic model is bad for families. In a democracy, people need Industry to use the democratic model. This would help families more than the Bible.

Young women, still eager to socialize, to dance and laugh with their friends, are confined in some dull dwelling-place with one or more needy, pre-verbal creatures, all day, every day, doing drudge-work, with no outlet for creativity or intelligence, no prospects and no status. The man brings a battered ego home every night to a wife who feels trapped and resentful.
Happy nuclear families! — Vera Mont

With the democratic model of Industry, fewer men and women would come home with battered egos because with the democratic model is constant learning and opportunity for advancement and respect for the workers' perspective that can be a big help to the overall operation. "Insubordination" is a word that does not belong in a democracy and resentful citizens are poison to a civilization. The reason for having a democracy is not only to fulfill our human potential but also to avoid the poisons of envy, resentment, ect..

As for the woman trapped at home and isolated- been there done that! It would have been so much easier if we had the Internet back then. I can survive anything as long as I can communicate with people who are like the people here. Without this, I was very close to insanity after many years of isolation and psychological abuse. However, I was able to channel my creative energy in constructive ways and loved the hippie movement that encouraged creativity. When both children were in school I volunteered a lot and sat on many committees like the tallest man's wife in the video. I was glad I had the time to educate myself and to feel important on committees. That is not always true for working people. I had my years of doing manual labor to support my family as a single woman. Talk about workers feeling resentment! I was horrified by some working conditions. I hate hearing "They just don't want to work". Why not? After years of isolation and earning for a job and better social connections I wanted to work, but the conditions of some jobs were intolerable and that gave me some sympathy for men who endure that and use alcohol to endure their lives.

Those videos are most enjoyable. For sure you stirred a lot of thinking in my head. I notice my reaction is very judgmental with feelings of disgust hampering my ability to be logical. To me, it is horrifying that a human being would be ruled by his/her feelings rather than reason. But I think many of us have a romantic notion of nature, and on the other hand, a very old eugenics book argues in favor of teaching birth control, so women will stop sending their husbands to prostitutes so the women can avoid sex and being pregnant again and again.

So much of my thinking today is influenced by an understanding of hormones and behavior. Addiction is a result of biological changes and our DNA which may make us more or less likely to become addicted. Without this scientific understanding of addiction, I thought addictions were a matter of weakness of character. Also, our sexual behavior is very much about hormones and relationships. Should a wife understand she should always please her husband, even though her hormonal balance means she is less interested in sex? :rofl: Surely everyone thinks of all these things after watching the comedy videos.

What might we want a child to know so the child can make the best possible decisions? How important is the math for today's technology? compared to knowing ourselves through knowledge of hormones? I surely do not want to start a family with a man ruled by his feelings at the moment and a need for alcohol, but when I was 18 I knew nothing about such things. :rofl: Even in my old age, those Roman soldiers in short leather uniforms tend to momentarily stop me from thinking of anything else. I wonder if at age 18 I could have learned in school the things life has taught me. Knowing facts does not equal knowing the meaning of the facts and when we are young our hormones are all about reproduction!

The higher-class gentleman impresses me as someone more likely to order his life with reason than spontaneously act on his feelings. Would this be helpful for children to learn? Does preparation for scientific thinking train the brain to use reason rather than acting on urges? Can we all be rich in knowledge and do we want to encourage this in a democracy?

I think I see what you are saying here, but I might make a small but important distinction between ‘civilization’ and ‘socialization’. — 0 thru 9

That is pure genius comparing the meaning of those two words and I think your statement of us having a civilization but not good socialization is perfect. I need to write what you said and put it on my board that has things I want to remember. I think over time when what you said has time to take root in my brain, your thought will improve my explanation of education and culture.

All of us White folk come from kingdoms and all those kingdoms used the Bible as the center of the justification of their civilizations. What they did to "those people" and the earth might be scornful. I am sorry if some of you are Christian because I am asking everyone to consider what Christian civilizations have done and to contemplate what our democracy would be if the immigrants to the New Land had respected the aboriginal people and adopted the culture of the Cherokees. What if we grew up thinking those born to a land belong to the land instead of the land belongs to those who can take it by force or who buy the land?

What does it mean to be civilized?

We were not successful in every endeavour, but at least some progress was made. In the workplace, considerable progress. In law and politics, two steps forward to one step back. In marital relations and parenting, immeasurable - because in some segments of society, the change is producing much better relationships and healthier children, while in others, very little has changed. — Vera Mont

My biggest impression of what you said is that people interested in philosophy tend to be more civil than those who have no interest in philosophy. I think in general we are respectful of different life experiences and different points of view. I agree with us making progress when it comes to employment, but I also see serious problems coming with this progress.

Who takes care of the children? Maybe in another 100 years, men will be instinctively nurturing but right now the idea of leaving a very young child in the care of a man for more than a couple of hours, unnerves me. I think men can do better than women when it comes to working with older children. A girl who has a father who is like a mentor to her is most fortunate! But I just don't think the average man does as well with babies and toddlers as the average woman and I think this difference is physical and especially hormonal. For me, this thinking goes with believing in evolution and what hormones have to do with our behavior.

Who takes care of the children is very much an economic question. I don't think it makes sense to expect single parents to both care for children and support them. In the past, a single working parent often had a mother or sister willing to care for the children. That is not as likely to be true today. In the US we have been totally reliant on women staying home to care for the family and now she has to work there is no one to care for children unless she can pay someone to care for her children and in some places even if she can afford childcare, there is none. This is a crisis situation for the single parent. His/her very best is not good enough unless s/he earns over $100,000 a year. That is not a minimum-wage job and we are very resistant to the government providing childcare or any form of assistance. We want to hold parents responsible for their children but we also have agreed marriage is no longer required and divorces are better than enduring the unhappiness of a bad marriage.

I would find all that less harmful if Industry used the democratic model instead of the autocratic model. We could include childcare in the place of employment or subsidized housing. We are having a hard time wrapping our heads around communal living and shared responsibility.

It has not been that long since we subdued the wilderness. When I first moved to Oregon there were fishing, farming, and timber jobs, and not many machines to do the heavy work. It was a different world not that long ago. And with that is the woman being every industry a family needs, she made the soap, all the clothes, and everything else the family needed. She planted the garden and preserved the produce and cut the wood to be put in the stove she used to cook the food. Now here are some problems! Her parents married her off when she was 14 and this had nothing to do with love. It was survival and it was common for men to get what they wanted from a woman by being abusive. Your mention of the Bible is evidence of what is wrong with patriarchy. And there is little an abused woman with children could do to have a better life. Our whole economic structure was keeping her ignorant and dependent on the income only a man could earn.

I am not sure we fully appreciate how much things have changed and I am out of time for today.

So should every boy along with every girl. I resented the hell out of not being allowed to take shop. Men need to budget, clothe and nourish themselves, just as women need to do minor home repairs. Whether they're married or not - besides, who says they'll marry each other? impractical to have two partners who can make pineapple upside-down cake but neither can put up a level shelf.

Women's lib didn't do that - patriarchy did. Women who had no independent income were at the mercy of their husbands in more ways than just financially - more so if they had children.

I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture.
— Athena
It brought its own young in line with the new world order your country had a major role in creating in the wake of WWII. Round individuals had been pretty rare before the war. Now, more scientific and industrial skills were needed, and a couple of other countries were already more advanced in those areas. The US had two choices: catch up and pull ahead or fall behind and lose its position as a world power. — Vera Mont

:rofl: When my X left so did the tools. Do you know how hard it is to make repairs with kitchen equipment?

I also resented the division of labor that was very divided by the Girl's Club and Boy's Club of my childhood in Hollywood, California. The clubs were a block apart and gender separated. But at the same time, I totally bought into the Dick and Jane family values. I believed I had to have children to fulfill myself as a woman and during the Hippie period, I loved associating with the Mother Goddess and being all things to my family, making everything from food to clothing with raw resources. I guess all that makes me a romantic.

Are you sure it was not women's liberation that destroyed the value of being a woman? I have been most viciously attacked by women when I speak in favor of traditional values. Rarely have men prevented me from doing something I wanted to do, but you make me think about this and now I remember occasionally men did draw the line but they have not attacked me as women have when I argue in favor of traditional values. Mostly I remember my college education and my shock at realizing my domestic language was not adequate for college-level work and a professional life. You have noticed this thread is in the lounge because it does not have the form that is the male standard. I was never able to give up the notion that we are meant to interact personally.

However, :nerd: excitement! I know my divorced, school teacher grandmother preferred the Alice and Jerry books to Dick and Jane books. That is hugely important because in the Alice and Jerry books a woman could be single and independent and those books were about learning phonics. While Dick and Jane books were for the sight-and-say method of teaching reading and the federal government's effort to stop the rising divorce rate following WWII. These differences have huge cultural consequences. About 20 years ago, a teacher was thrilled to show me the new computer and a story of the bully on the block being a female. The bully being a female is not something I consider socially desirable.

I am amazed you are aware of why the 1958 National Defense Education is important to our education and national changes! I remember the day it was enacted because the teachers were in a state of shock. I knew something big happened but had no idea what unless they knew we were about to enter a nuclear war with Russia. Fortunately, a male teacher told the class we were now going to be educated for a technological society with unknown values! Unknown values?! How can we protect our civilization and democracy if our values are unknown?

What are we protecting if the only value we share is the value of money?

Good, glad to hear that! :grin: It’s a liberating feeling.
We’ve all been lied to, even repeated the lies that we ingested.
Now’s an excellent to to stop, beginning with what we tell ourselves in the quiet of our minds. — 0 thru 9

Oh yes! I see this so much as I deal with terrible family relationships spinning off of the individual stories each child and grandchild has created to explain his or her life. My sister and I have very different life stories even though we grew up together. Not until her later years has she been open to my love and this seems to be fairly common. My oldest granddaughter is carrying a story about her life that makes loving relationships seem impossible. Daughters are frequently estranged. This seems a process of the daughters forming their independent identity and this personal stuff makes public education for good relationships even more important. Joseph Campbell said we need a shared mythology and our lack of a shared mythology leads to us creating our own mythology creating our family and associates as the monsters we must defend ourselves against.

How about you? I find Eastern thinking liberating. As I near death I am comforted by the notion that I am one with the universe, but also distressed about being one with the universe and no "I". If "I" do not exist does anything matter? But is it not that need for "I" that separates us from the oneness? I have an awful lot of thinking to do.

A fusion of tribal thinking with Greek and Stoic philosophy could be amazing.
I think the Tao Te Ching is in the neighborhood of that in some ways, and is a deep well of wisdom. — 0 thru 9

]\
As soon as I lied down I thought of Sumer and the story of a wild man living in the wilderness being tamed by a woman in the city. The point being we are not naturally good and caring beings who live well in communities. We learn how to be civilized. Children who are not nurtured well early in life may lose the ability to love.

Reactive attachment disorder (RAD) is a condition where a child doesn’t form healthy emotional bonds with their caretakers (parental figures), often because of emotional neglect or abuse at an early age. Children with RAD have trouble managing their emotions. They struggle to form meaningful connections with other people. Children with RAD rarely seek or show signs of comfort and may seem fearful of or anxious around their caretakers, even in situations where their caretakers are quite loving and caring.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17904-reactive-attachment-disorder

Our Justice and correction systems are on the verge of dramatic change as we move away from thinking of people as being good or evil, to understanding why some of us succeed and some of us fail miserably.

Without this information about our humanness, Ishmael's explanation is like the story of Eden. We would all live in paradise if we didn't do evil. Totally innocent people destroy their environment such as the people living on Easter Island who deforested their island to the point they could no longer make fishing boats, so they ate all the land animals and finally became cannibals. Today we can estimate how many people live in a valley given in the resources of the valley but instead of learning to live within our limits, we rely on technology to meet all our needs. So like Israel when the population is greater than the available space humans start pushing "those people" out. This is more the mentality of an animal than a well-educated human being who chooses not to have 6 children.

You mentioned "Tao Te Ching" so I pulled out my copy of "Great Thinkers of the Eastern World" and Eastern philosophers have made stronger arguments for intentionally civilizing each other. This Chinese Buddhist philosophy goes with quantum physics and the possibility of multiple dimensions.

(1) All phenomena are mutually related and give rise to one another simultaneously. (2) The broad and the narrow are mutually inclusive without impediment; and one action, however small, includes all actions. (3) The many are included in the one and the one in the many, without losing their respective characteristics as “one” and “many.” (4) All phenomena are interpenetrated in their essence; one is equal to all and all is equal to one. (5) The hidden and the manifest complement each other and together form one entity. (6) Things that are inconceivably minute also obey the principle of many in one and one in many. (7) All phenomena ceaselessly permeate and reflect one another, like the reflections in the jewels of Indra’s net (a net said to hang on a wall in the palace of the god Indra, or Shakra; at each link of the net is a reflective jewel that mirrors the adjacent jewels and the multiple images reflected in them). (8) All phenomena manifest the truth, and the truth is to be found in all phenomena; anything can serve as an example of the truth of the interdependence of all things. (9) The three periods of past, present, and future each have past, present, and future within themselves. This defines nine periods, which together form one period, making ten in all. These ten periods are distinct yet mutually pervasive. This mystery expresses the “one is all, all is one” principle of the Flower Garland school in terms of time. (10) At any time, one phenomenon acts as principal and many phenomena as secondary, thus completing the whole. https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/60

That is different from thinking in terms of God's manifestation and good and evil like Zoroastrianism or the God of Abraham religions. Once the concepts of good and evil blend with our thoughts is it possible for us to think without good and evil judgments? How does it feel to think of the 10 mysteries?

Okay I read the whole quote. Now I am going to back to bed to ponder it. Immediately I know, I like the notion that I belong to the world, better than the notion I am wrongfully alienated from a jealous, revengeful, fearsome God and that our lives were made miserable by Adam and Eve eating the wrong plant and God had to kill his son to save our souls. What an awful story that is. We are alienated from god and Earth and desperate to find acceptance, and in our despondency, we might find it necessary to kill everything and everyone around us.

Well, I did try to highlight examples of fantastic citizenship and community spirit, that I know for a fact exists in the small Scottish town I live in. Surely that and the fact that such is alive and kicking in 2023, should offer you some contentment that we have not all surrendered to tock yet. — universeness

That is a hopeful statement. I say that because I don't have a sense of it being true where I live. In a democracy, we all have responsibilities for our families, community, and then nation. We did handle everything without government when in 1830 Tocqueville wrote of democracy in America. That is no longer true. Even if we wanted to do something government policy restricts what we can do. I have heard office managers talk to a dentist or doctor as though these people work on an assembly line. Absolutely no respect for them as well-educated human beings with the liberty to do as they see fit. Teachers are so controlled by the government and the need to do paperwork it is amazing they continue to teach. We are coming on Christmas and people want to exchange gifts but if I exchanged gifts with a client, my supervisor would fear the whole program would be shut down in our area and she would get rid of me in a heartbeat. How we experience life today is not how we experienced life before 1958.

I think in rural areas people might have a greater sense of freedom, but they feel threatened and in the US we all seem to see government as our worst enemy. It does seem to be trying too hard to control everything. Our politics are now very reactionary and we are dangerously divided. I think this problem is connected to mass murders and failed marriages. On the good side, we are seeing problems and this leads to trying to resolve them.

All this was part of my 1957-1965 routine public school education in Toronto. Plus domestic skills, health and hygiene, math, grammar, literature, history, geography and science, access to the library and extracurricular activities. A lot of the arts and after-school programs were cut dues to financial constraints. A friend who came from the US and later went back told me that her daughter who wanted to study geography at post-secondary level could not find a school in Chicago that offered it. — Vera Mont

Hold on to that memory because that is what I am talking about! I studied home economics and I did not question that I should find a husband, get married, and have children. I wanted to be a teacher like my grandmother but my father felt strongly about the woman staying home to care for the family and that I should continue with home economics education.

It was a shock to me that women's lib would destroy that value system and turn us into "just housewives" as though that is almost the lowest thing a woman can be. Just one step above a prostitute. Then I learned of matriarchy and some Native American tribes where women have value and are highly respected. I am asking people to look at what the 1958 National Defense Education Act did to education and our culture. How did the development of well-rounded individual growth become too expensive and focus us on education for military and industrial needs?

Are people who will never go to college being cheated out of the education they need, turning them into throw-away human beings, as we focus on those going to college and education for technology, not for humans? Do you realize, when we die there will be no one who remembers life as we experienced it? Such as living with a feeling of safety and not fearing someone will flip out and start gunning down everyone in sight, or children being gone all day and not fearing they will be abducted, or thinking we need strong men to run our nations because everything is falling apart.

That is the important part of the message of the Natives and tribal peoples.
Earth plus us is a marriage, a relationship, a friendship.
The current relationship to the Earth too often is ‘take, take, take!’… which ends up being very close to criminal activity like slavery, theft, and rape. — 0 thru 9

Years ago when women's liberation was changing everything and my marriage was grinding to an end I sought counseling. I had a sense that the problem was a spiritual one and counseling was not addressing this. Christianity was no help to me because of its tie with Satan and demons and the idea that Satan could possess a person definitely was not helpful!

I was born in Seattle, Washington and my WWII vet father walked with me in the forest. This is the kind of spirituality I desire but back in the day, it was next to impossible to get any information about it. And I want to thank you all for participating in this thread and all the thinking your replies stir in me. At the moment I am questioning my reliance on Athens that continues to exclude the Native American spirituality which I still hunger for. A PBS show about Chaco Canyon has me thinking heavily about these people's spiritual point of view. Animism is a belief about the entire universe being alive and some of the science I have come across is saying the same thing.

Are there things from Native American culture that should be included in our education? What kind of person do we want our young to become?

Helping out locally, via volunteer work, is I think one of the best uses of a person's time you can ever take part in. The wee town I live in, has so many wee community help groups, and they are all fantastic. — universeness

:rofl: I know retired who are shocked by how busy they are!

May I say, when women were expected to be full-time homemakers that came with taking care of everyone in the community. Of course not all women could get involved with volunteer work, especially if they were working on a farm where the whole family works, but she was to help all family members in need of help and by law could be fined if she did not. I have a 1941 Family Law book. Back in the day, there were charities but not government assistance and laws actually spelled out how family is responsible for family. It find it hard to believe how we have gotten so far from the meaning of family that every civilization had. This "I" come first and my happiness is more important than the family, so a horror to me and I am not sure civilization can continue like this.

The Old American Act entitles older people to decent housing, transportation, free education, and more but what goes with that is the idea that this enables them to continue to be valuable contributing members of society. It was never meant to support the notion, "me first". It was to support a democracy where we work together for the good of all.

Do others have notions about what it means to be a citizen in a democracy? In a kingdom, everyone expects to rely on the king, but in a democracy, every citizen has a part to play. This gives us a kind of immortality because our lives are bigger than just ourselves, and we carry the purpose of giving our best to the future and our nation. Everyone has a part to play.

Thanks for your wonderful post!
:flower: :smile: :up: — 0 thru 9

I watched a show about Native Americans and have been attempting to see the world from the point of view of people who were here long before Europeans and the technology that came with them and continues to drive our modern way of life. I want to feel connected with Mother Earth and live with the purpose of caring for nature.

I am not sure if all matriarchies are better suited for democracy than patriarchies. I have read of many matriarchies and sports events they created to manage aggression so that it did not become harmful to the community. I think music and dancing maybe important to having social harmony. My my grandmother's day it was common to start a class with a song. Such as....

Good morning to you
good morning to you
We are all in our places
with smiles on our faces
and this is the way to
start and good day.

Are there any opinions about the psychological factor in music, song, dance, sports, and possibly art? All this would be part of a liberal education.

I’d put a similar thought in this way: a culture of people can either be a ‘dominator culture’ or not.
These days the word ‘dominant’ is seen as superior, but being a ‘D-Cult’ its strength is superficial and stolen… and extremely toxic.
It’s like a person growing rich by embezzlement; it may go on for years, but it is ultimately unsustainable.

We are living in a dominator culture (as you probably agree).

As a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with.
It is difficult to argue with because it is the logic of absolute power, the persuasion of guns behind all the complex and scholarly reasoning.

And to defy the Empire that rules the world, an empire that is now beyond any one particular nation, is a paradox.

It is a paradox because it is suicidal to oppose complete power, yet it is genocidal to go along with it.

This is why the people around us (and perhaps ourselves) are struggling to keep from slipping into insanity. — 0 thru 9

Oh yeah, I agree with you! If I were a millionaire I would rent rooms in a hotel with a conference room and pay everyone's way to our conference. Seriously, :broken: my knowledge comes from old books, and the only way we will the essential agreements to take action is to share those books. Not that long ago what the children read was considered as important as their ability to read. We did not fill school libraries with trash books because that is what the children will read. Today what is in school libraries is as bad as the junk food US schools feed their children because that is what they will eat.

If you read the old grade textbooks I have, you would see they are about teaching children how to behave and how to think. Again and again, the textbooks are about cooperating and sharing, and good manners. Not the aggressive and socially inappropriate books that are in children's libraries today. The word "civilize" means to make like us and our liberty depends on education that transmits a culture, that is education advances a civilization and how we do that was radically changed in 1958 because those put in control of education were those who are about military defense and industrial needs. Education was controlled by the people in town, not the federal government.

:broken: Yes, what you said "a culture bent on turning the Earth into wealth, and absorbing (stealing) everything and everyone else on the planet, we have a certain logic and rationale that is difficult to argue with." is absolutely true and do you realize how this is tied up with banking, and cities getting loans or not? This is not what the US stood for. :cry: I think we can turn things around. Our whole economy may completely collapse before everyone is ready to turn things around, however, if that point in time comes, if no one is prepared for democracy we will not recover. That you and the others here care gives me great hope we can turn things around because we are not the only ones working on the problems. We can unite and we can join with others and we can spread the word. Remember there was a time when no one heard of Jesus, and then just about everyone in the world knows the Bible story. Spreading the word and turning things around is possible. It is just a different story that needs to be told.

I will use your post to explain education for good reasoning. I think just about everyone takes good reasoning for granted.

Hear is a very simple explanation of why we should not take good reasoning for granted.



It is not easy being human and the classics help us better understand how to be a good human being. A few prisons have used education in the classics to actually correct the prisoner's social problems. Socrates and Cicero and Jefferson and others saw character development as the most important need for education. Here as an explanation being human and is helpful in being a better human.



Education for democracy teaches us the rules for logical thinking and rules for good communication skills. There are many explanations for logical thinking. I like this one best because in it we can see how the Greeks came to scientific thinking.

https://medium.com/illumination/5-logical-rules-that-will-improve-your-reasoning-skills-instantly-b60b7bc64246

I totally agree that you can better help others, when you yourself can take the basic means of survival for granted. That's why I fight for food, water, shelter etc as basic human rights, and not something anyone should have to 'work for.' I was merely pointing out that sooooooo many people are willing to, and are in fact compelled to, help make things better for everyone. As long as it is true, that good people will not just stand by and watch horror and terror happen to others, then we do earn the right to continue to exist imo. Many still do nothing, and they do merely watch as evil grows and thrives but, as Gandhi pointed out, we always, eventually, bring such evils down, we destroy them. The nefarious rise again or hide and come out again, and the fight continues. But general progress on behalf of more and more 'have nots' is made. As I said before, most people have more ability to affect the nefarious than they have ever had before. A billionaire can be brought down almost overnight today, as can a government, if the people decide to act en-masse. — universeness

Please, I am stretched so thin right now I want to pick up the argument in favor of minding our own business and not trying to save the rest of the world. Note, I am skipping the pool this morning so I can join you in the effort to save the world. The fellow I take shopping on Saturday is in the hospital again and that leaves me to care for his dog. I had to ignore you all for another day or give up swimming for the day. My point is, that our lives can get very busy and just getting ourselves through the day can seem like a huge feat, so how do things work for us to do more?

At the mandatory meeting yesterday we were given CDs and DVDs regarding our physical and mental health. It is a wonderful gift but who paid for it? I asked the question but did not get a good answer. My point is, how do we organize to meet the many, many needs of people and how does this get paid for? Right now it all is potluck!

Someone where you live may be providing what you need and maybe not. We are also at that time of year when insurance companies are vying to be our medical insurer. I hate this process because if we do not get well informed or have an unexpected medical problem, we could end up with insurance that does not meet our needs. From my position in life, it is horrifying to be aware of the huge difference in what homeless people get, compared to what housed people get. Homeless people do not qualify for so much because services depend on having a home. A crippled person with a home can get a lot of assistance that makes his/her life comfortable, but not an old crippled person without a home. You might qualify for a home nurse when you are released from the hospital, but if you don't have a home, you don't get a home nurse. If you are insulin-dependent and don't have a home, you can not refrigerate the insulin. Like we can't even figure out how to shelter vulnerable people, who should get housing, let alone provide for young healthy people who may become like feral cats if left on the streets too long.

Before I mentioned my concern of people being so dependent they are not motivated to be contributing members of society. I am afraid just providing for everyone will make the problems much worse. Unless a person is mentally or physically disabled, this person needs a way of feeling like a useful and valued member of society, and all of us need things in our lives that schedule our lives even the handicapped can do much better, be happier people, with a job to do. I am speaking from my experience with foster homes and the social/work-related opportunities for them. I love to see their pride when they can report what they did during the day. It makes them one of us.

Oh my love, how do we organize that perfect world? Should we rely on thousands of individual efforts as we do in the US or should government be the organizing force? And if government, how do we avoid this being authoritarian and too controlling and too impersonal? Thanks to HIPAA I don't know where the homeless man I help is. I assume he was moved back to the long-term care facility after being in the hospital again. I need to know by Friday so I can visit him. Everyone I deal with sympathizes with my frustration of him being moved and no one being able to tell me where he was taken, and all these people are intensely afraid of what will happen if they dare violate HIPAA policy. Do you hear me? Our government can create a nightmare with an insane need to control.

get this unsettling feeling that many people (10 thousand? 100 thousand?) in the USA are actively chomping at the bit to start another US civil war… or some bloody battles anyway.
They are pumped up with automatic weapons, anger, and enough ‘theory’ to be actual loose cannons… and they are proud of this.

Trump not only uses these people for votes and cash, but I seriously wonder if one of Trump’s multiple personalities actually wants to start a civil war.
Especially now that he probably feels persecuted; I fear he wants a bloodbath.

I dislike DeSantis and his stupid bigotry very much, but he is not the nuclear timebomb and stuff of nightmares that Trump is. I hope neither gets the nomination.
The status quo sucks, but some of the ‘alternatives’ are hell on earth. — 0 thru 9

:grin: Socrates would love your argument. That is the problem with learning the technology of rhetoric instead of being prepared for good moral judgment. That rhetoric can get people into wars they should avoid. Our sense of self-importance has gone crazy. We are as paranoid as Germany, suffering an extreme need to be superior and in control. That comes with education for technology. This is a culture change that came with the change in education.

Despite all the human faults of Athens, it was the beginning of science and democracy, rule by reason. — Athena

What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark

Much better-informed people than myself have debated why Athens was an intellectual leader. For sure part of that was their notion of gods, but Egypt and other civilizations also had many gods. Athens's break from the rest seems to come with the notion of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. That definitely tipped Athens toward science and away from supernatural beings.

I suspect Pythagoras did not discover the theorem he is credited with because it seems more logical to me that that discovery came from China and its use of metal bowls. This also points to another reason for Athens leaping ahead of the rest intellectually, its contact with people from around the world, especially after the Persian war and building the new temple for Athena and a university to attract people from around the world. The Persian war did for Athens what the world wars did for the US regarding economic and technological growth. Athens's navy turning into merchant ships put the growth of Athens on steroids and the intensional use of Athena's temple and a university was genius. However, problems came with these changes as well.

Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were focused on what made a human good, not the technologies, especially not the technology of making a good speech (rhetoric) which should bring to mind Jefferson and his concern for education for good moral judgment being essential to democracy. Liberal education being literate in the ancient philosophers who gave us the reasoning for democracy. Democracy does not begin with the story of Adam and Eve and our need to be saved from a curse we carry because of what Adam and Eve ate. No, Socrates demonstrated how the right questioning can result in a completely uneducated boy to correctly answering mathematical questions proving humans are capable of reasoning, of discovering logos. No one is born to be a king or a slave as Christians believed. Jews and the Greeks fought a war because Greeks did merit hiring and did not respect the Jewish system of our jobs depending on a person's inherited position in life. I am saying the belief system for democracy is not the same as the one Christianity gives us. Specifically the importance of universal, secular education for good moral judgment.

Bottom line The learned belief system for democracy with liberty is- democracy is rule by reason and all citizens need education for good reasoning.

Why should anyone make common cause for someone who feels contempt for them? — T Clark

Because it is the right thing to do.

What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark

I totally agree and that gives us immortality because it is not about each of us as mortal individuals, but all of us creating a future.

Critical thought is what is needed, but can critical thought even be learned? — Tzeentch

That is what a liberal education is about and many colleges are proud of their liberal education programs. My problem with this is not everyone goes to college and those who do may not get a liberal education. Education for democracy which is a liberal education, must begin with the first day of school.

"I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. no other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of freedom, and happiness."
(Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, August 13, 1786) — Jefferson

You have mainly talked about the whole nation - as if it were one country, rather than four or six. — Vera Mont

I speak of democracy. I am not a nationalist and I am troubled when speak as though the world would not know democracy without the US. Despite all the human faults of Athens, it was the beginning of science and democracy, rule by reason. It is the concept of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and our ability to discover logos, universal laws, and figure out how to live with those laws and improve our lives. For the first time in history, most of us are enjoying abundance and we dare to dream big dreams. We are not living with the fear of people we know starving to death in the long winter months. As in my reply to universeness, our abundance increases our potential. The thoughts that occurred in Athens got us here.

Next to full bellies, we need education, a liberal education that draws on the classics.

A liberal arts education will also help you develop a strong sense of social responsibility as well as strong and transferable intellectual and practical skills, such as communication, analytical, and problem-solving abilities, and a demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills in real-world settings.Nov 20, 2022

The Benefits of a Liberal Arts Education - Coalition for College

Coalition

for College
https://www.coalitionforcollegeaccess.org › the-benefits-...

Do you have anything to say about how military technology changed education and how bureaucratic technology increases the power of government to control our lives or what abundance and security has done to how we think?

The Peace Core was begun during the Kennedy administration. It has attracted millions of people willing to take risks to help people around the world. Soon after the Peace Core we got America Core, our domestic Peace Core also helping people but they do so within the US. Many churches send missionaries around the world and there are many organizations for helping people and millions more who support those doing the work by making donations. We evolved to cooperate and help others. This is what kept us alive since we first came down from the trees.

HOWEVER, all that good depends on having an abundance. If we have to fight for resources we will. In villages that are so poor children must fend for themselves by age 3. You will not find loving families where life is that severe. The Christian God was a God to fear for centuries before our bellies were full and He became a loving God.

Universeness, I think would like this book...

Abundance Book by Peter Diamandis

Peter Diamandis
https://www.diamandis.com › abundance
"This brilliant must-read book provides the key to the coming era of abundance replacing eons of scarcity. Abundance is a powerful antidote to today's malaise ...

What is the importance of abundance?
Why is having the abundance mindset important? Having an abundance mindset practically shifts our perspective of things. It builds healthy ways of thinking and allows us to attract the things we want in our life by taking action based on motivation rather than fear. — Peter Diamandis

I think when Trump was our president, we experienced the division that was felt during the Civil War. The way he handled Covid and went about other things, divided all of us and we turned our backs on our neighbors and friends who were no longer our friends because it was unbearable to associate with those we opposed. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was such a strong emotional thing it was closer to insanity than sanity, and I think that happens when people go to war.

Some of the best words ever written were written by

Here Thucydides, in one of his greatest passages [3:82; translation by Rex Warner from the Penguin Classics edition], describes the political and psychological consequences of this breakdown of civil society:

"To fit with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against the enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect. To plot successfully was a sign of intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching …

Family relations were a weaker tie than party membership, since party members were more ready to go to any extreme for any reason whatever. These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of established laws, but to acquire power by overthrowing the existing regime; and the members of these parties felt confidence in each other not because of any fellowship in a religious communion, but because they were partners in crime. If an opponent made a reasonable speech, the party in power, so far from giving it a generous reception, took every precaution to see that it had no practical effect." — Steven Pressfield

The words of the video could come from Thucydides and we know of Thucydides because he comes from classical literature, the source of our culture that is still with us even though we are no longer literate in the classics.

Be convinced that to be happy means to be free and that to be free means to be brave. Therefore do not take lightly the perils of war. Thucydides
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/thucydides-quotes — Thucydides

At our best, I think humans demonstrate far far more empathy, altruism, cooperation, good morality standards and an ability and fierce motivation to be a net positive towards our environment and everything in it, compared to both of them, especially when one of them does not exist.

Addition: Just to be clear, I fully accept that we are primates, but my point was from the position of being the best of them, and then being at OUR best. — universeness

That good is reliant on our abundance and that is very threatened right now. I believe our economy is very fragile right now and if it falls again, the violence will get worse. If the US defaults on its loans the economy will suffer. If we do not defend those we are committed to defending, the status and the economy or the US will take a big hit. The cost of our military and war could destroy us because our goodness is based on our abundance not our reasoning for things like universal health care and government-provided low-income housing, and that abundance may not last.

I still don't agree. According to what I've read, American education before that act, followed by the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965, finally made some semblance of an academically rounded education possible for the majority of students. (Except where nobbled by state law and disabled by religious segregation.) — Vera Mont

What have you read? This is a sincere question because when people disagree it is usually because their sources of information are different. Also because the south and north of the US were separated from the being, the region we are talking about could be important. I have Paul Monroe, PH.D's 1910 "A TEXT BOOK IN THE HISTORY OF EDUCATION" and James Mulhern's 1956 "A HISTORY OF EDUCATION- A SOCIAL INTERPRETATION" several books by John Dewey who was a leader in education, an 1883 Bancroft "Fifth Reader" and more. There is nothing I would rather do than spend my days with these books and the people in this forum. :heart: Seriously if we all could share these books I would pull away from my present commits and make you all the focus of my life.

Looking at the 1883 reader The focus on speaking skills is obvious. So is the cultural information obvious. There are samples of stories passed down the ages that are the foundation of our culture, and important people of the past and that time in history are mentioned along with passages about the constitution and liberty. Really education for technology was limited to reading, writing, and arithmetic. While just years later our national defense needed typists, mechanics, and engineers and we were scrambling to catch up with Germany which had education for technology of military and industrial needs.

At the Nation Education Association in 1917, this urgent need was the subject of many speeches, and J.A.B. "Sinclair, Surgeon, United States Navy, Portland Recruiting station, Portland, Ore. made the immediate need to change in education clear. "As sudden the act of an unknown youth whose leap exploded the European powder mine was the stroke of the German military machine.....Such a state of events were possible only thru the workings of the most highly organized and scientifically operated military machine the world has ever known and well it was for that machine's opponents that they too were in a measure organized after the same general scientific plan.....

One of the most salient features of the opposing military-naval establishment of the European nations at war today is the specialization of the one-time-citizen-now-soldier along scientific war-industrial-trade lines, and -since past and present events the best human forecast do not justify the human hope for early world peace- it behooves the citizens of our country, now adding its part to this well-nigh universal conflict, to train its young men to think and work in like scientific line to the end that mobilization of these resources may insure our nation against disaster."

I am running out of time- this is what Eisenhower was talking about. The Military Industrial Complex began with the Prussians who ruled Germany following the 30 Years War. The divisions between the military and industry were removed as government turned the whole nation into a Military Industrial Complex. This exists today and has been developed in all modern countries because this is about bureaucratic organization and the economy and the competition for decreasing resources while the demand for those resources is greatly increasing.

Note Germany specialized its citizens and they worshipped efficency. Democracy is not efficient and there is a serious problem for a democracy if the citizens are not generalists. The German people and the citizens of the US were not that different, but their bureaucratic organization and education were different. The US adopted both the German bureaucratic model and the education model and now it is what it defended its democracy against. Reactionary politics, and everywhere a growing brutality as we revert back to being as animals. Our abundance is counteracting this degradation of our humanity but if it ends, our civility will end.

She is convinced that, prior to that change, US education promoted Greek style values and good citizenship. — Vera Mont

Thank you Vera. We used the Athenian model of education for well-rounded individual growth. This prepared the young for life and self-government and was along the lines of liberal education. Since 1958 we are preparing the young to be products for industry, and a high-tech society with unknown values. It goes with the change in bureaucratic order that shifts liberty and power away from the individual to the state. That leads to increasing authority over the people and a police state. That is a very different culture than the one we had.