Comments

  • Culture is critical
    Just for the record, the art of mass manipulation was brought to modern form by Edward Bernays (November 22, 1891 − March 9, 1995) considered a pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, and referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations".

    [ ... ]

    Walter Lippman was Bernays' unacknowledged American mentor and Lippman's work The Phantom Public greatly influenced the ideas expressed in Propaganda a year later.
    BC
    :100: :fire:

    If you were to watch old TV shows you might notice cultural differences between the 1950's and the present. The original Star Trek TV shows contrasted with the Next Generation Star Trek TV shows is an excellent example of what the change in education did to our culture. Captain Kirk is the John Wayne of outer space and Picard is the "Group Think" generation.Athena
    :clap: :sweat: As an original Trekkie myself, I can't argue with you there, Athena. LLAP (n o t MAGA :mask:)
  • Culture is critical
    Without irony I say - I think it's simpler here in the US - the Republicans did it.T Clark
    :up: Mostly, yeah, especially since the 1980s.

    And this is made possible by adopting the German model of bureaucracy. Before Hoover and Roosevelt worked together to give us Big Government, the US government was relatively weak.Athena
    To my mind, 'the administrative state' beginning in the 1930s had postponed for almost cenrury this US collapse we're currently living through. During the last 80-odd years, women and minorities have been substantively enfranchised, business cycles have been extended and flattened due to effective regulations the public-private synergy of which has produced both unprecedented national prosperity and fewer boom & bust crises than before the 1929 Crash, far more and effective social welfare policies have been enacted, etc etc. The problem was not, IMO, the "German model of bureaucracy" itself but rather the postwar (i.e. "Cold War military industrial complex") use of "the German model" to perpetuate the American (internally contradictory) model of political democracy and economic anti-democracy – a laissez-faire settlers' slave republic – that had been established by anti-monarchal plutocrats in 1789.

    Are you saying it is not values that lead to shoddy construction, prolonged disrepair, and entropy?
    Not at all. I'm suggesting that it's not the merely symptomatic 'degradation of values' in our lifetimes but instead it's the congenital defect of the decadent values of the Founding generation – patriarchal plutocratic slavers – of the late-18th century America who'd been the architects of 'this house' which have contributed more than any other factor to the current, status quo collapse (and populist reactions to it).

    I remember the older people who all about honesty and human dignity.
    Well, I'm not nearly as nostalgiac as you seem to be, Athena, for a past 'Golden Era' which history ubiquitously demonstrates never was and, I suspect as long as civilization is scarcity-driven, never will be.

    :100:
  • Mysterianism
    I just wanted feedback on my objection to mysterianism.RogueAI
    In a sentence or two, what's your objection?

    You've lost me ...
  • Culture is critical
    [W]e are destroying our democracy as all our institutions are failing.Athena
    Regarding the US, our political democracy without economic democracy is a democracy-in-name-only (DINO) which, from periodic national crisis to crisis, has been dismantling itself brick by brick since 1789 by disproportionately serving Capital at the expense of Labor and Nature (both of which are in revolt: reactionary populisms and global warming, respectively). A house doesn't collapse because of its occupants' "values" but mostly from a combination of shoddy construction, prolonged disrepair and entropy. Likewise, "our institutions are failing" because the macro structural imbalances, of which they are functions, are imploding as the ramifications of those imbalances accelerate.

    So traditional "verities" have become hypocrites' punchlines; commerce über alles has fragmented communities into barrios, barracks & bunkers inhabited by increasingly alienated, hedonic treadmill junkies (zombies); and 'the American system' freezes out most of the people and with every passing generation more and more people desire to burn it all down in order to warm their freezing children in its 'purifying bonfires'. It's just so much easier for most people to imagine The Apocalypse :pray: than to struggle for a viable, radical alternative to this acutely alienating, neoliberal status quo. Maybe it is already too late to postpone "American Carnage" ... :eyes:

    I worry for my children. We know from history the world sometimes does go to hell.T Clark
    :100:
  • Adventures in Metaphysics 1: Graham Harman's Object-Oriented Ontology
    NB: I have thoroughly read Meillassoux & Brassier but immediately lose interest whenever I start reading Harman.

    1) Can objects be understood without reference to human subjectivity?schopenhauer1
    Clarify what you mean by "understood".

    2) Is it even wise to try to overlook the human aspect to all knowledge?
    "The human aspect" can be deflated (e.g. mathematics, natural sciences).

    Is this not only a fool's errand but somehow anti-human or is this just trying to take out a pernicious anthropomorphism that might lead to a more open field of exploration?
    Speculative Realists seem to be attempting a more complete and consistent application of the Mediocrity Principle (i.e. anthropo-decentricity) – neither a 'view from being there' nor a 'view from nowhere', but a view from everywhere – in ontology.
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    The NYS civil trial begins October 2nd; it's a black & white "documents case" that should last no more than two months with a verdict just in time for Xmas or sooner. Loser-1 will not offer a defense just like in the E. Jean Carroll lawsuit and the Trump Organization was convicted of 17 felonies last fall which are also at the heart of the state's civil case. It's wishful thinking at best on your part, Mikie, to believe this lawsuit won't reach a verdict against Loser-1 by the end of this year.

    Rubert Murdoch has already abandoned him. I suspect other far less well-known to the public mega-donors already have as well (which is why Loser-1 has veen grifting so hard since his failed coup attempt).

    Senators Mo Brooks & Mitt Romney released separate statements today declaring Loser-1 is unfit to be president. More to come, Mikie. Let the avalanche begin ...

    Keep in mind, the voters only matter – get a say – once 'the establishment' (mega-donors, party leaders, politicians & pundits) has signed-off on the candidates. Loser-1, while still the front runner today, is hemorraging the establishment support he needs so that his MAGA maniacs can get a chance to vote for him in the primaries. Yeah, I get it, they don't care about his past or pending civil, criminal & financial troubles but, all indications are, the GOP establishment cares about winning / regaining power in Washington DC and Loser-1 looks more and more to them like an obstacle to power. MAGA morons be damned, there aren't enough of them –'without Never Trumpers, suburban GOP women, under 35 years olds and most Independents – for Loser-1 to win a general election. This has been obvious and confirmed since 2018 and confirmed again in 2020 & 2022 (remember the Trumpy "red ripple"?) :smirk:

    Lastly, Desantis is sabotaging himself even as he throws red meat at MAGAts. Also, between getting punk'd by Mickey Mouse and being Loser-1's first and easiest rival to attack, Desantis has offered himself up as a tag-team practice dummy.

    Also, when you say it won’t be Joe Biden as the nominee — care to bet on that too?Mikie
    Like taking candy from a baby. :yum: :up:
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    If Sexual Predator-1 is on the ballot in the fall of 2024 he will be running as an Independent / Third Party candidate and not as the GOP nominee. Why?

    (1) by the end of 2023, the jury in NYS civil lawsuit will find him responsible for over a decade of state tax fraud, putting him and his children on the hook for damages $500million – $1billion and effectively shutting down the Trump Organization, etc by preventing the family from doing business in NYS – SP-1 will be so broke that campaign mega-donors will completely abandon him (as his buddy Rupert Murdoch already has) as well as Russian Oligarchs & the Saudis ...

    (2) by the end of 2023, SP-1 will be indicted for dozens of RICO felonies in Fulton County, Georgia, with a trial set to begin in the summer/fall of 2024 – Senate Minoriry Leader "Moscow Mitch", in order to protect the GOP's slim chances of winning back the US Senate in 2024, will lead GOP senators to begin to openly withdraw their support during the GOP primaries and even openly criticize SP-1 as a serial electoral "LOSER" just as former GOP governor Chris Christie is already doing ...

    (3) lastly, also by the end of 2023, a Federal Grand Jury and the DoJ will indict SP-1 for Seditious Conspiracy & Insurrection, among several other charges, and this will trigger legal challenges in State & Federal courts to remove SP-1 from ballots for president (or any federal office) pursuant to the prohibitions specified in the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3 of the US Constitution – without GOP big money or his own financing, without the support of GOP senators and live wall-to-wall 24/7 media chatter about legal challenges to officially disqualify Seditionist-1 from any federal office including the presidency, the GOP will abandon him next spring (or sooner) in order to begin saving itself as a viable party for the 2026 midterms abd 2028 general election.

    Out of spite and malignant narcissistic dementia, Seditionist-1 will run as a third party spoiler to punish the GOP for abandoning him siphoning off enough voters to guarantee a Democrat wins the presidency (not Biden) as well as violence by MAGA terrorists leading up to and around the election next fall. And all this in the political context of the collapse of FOX Noise (re: Smartmatic & shareholders' lawsuits plus Tucker Carlson's retaliation) and demise of the right-wing SCOTUS (re: Thomas & wife, et al) as well.

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/781991

    So I'll be happy to take your money, Mikie. :wink: :up:
  • Mysterianism
    In fact, I think idealism is the obvious solution.RogueAI
    Any idea how "idealism" can be used to solve "the hard problem"? Do share, Rogue.
  • Philosophy is for questioning religion
    What is nihilism? It is variously expressed as the idea that nothing is real, or that nothing has any real meaning.Wayfarer
    By 'nihilism' I understand the belief that nothing human (i.e. mortal, finite, caused, contingent, imperfect) is meaningful or significant or real. Thus, I interpret 'supernatural religions' (e.g. Abrahamic, Vedic, pantheonic, shamanic, animist, ancestral, divine rightist, paranormal, ... cults) as manifest 'nihilisms' which, as Freddy points out, devalue this worldly life by projecing – idealizing (i.e. idolizing, disembodying) – 'infinite meaning, significance & reality' as originating with and/or only belonging to some purported 'eternal otherworldly life'. :sparkle: :eyes: :roll:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/805551
  • Philosophy is for questioning religion
    Does theism as a philosophical position, act as a valid support for religious doctrine?universeness
    Sure, at best, but not sound.
  • Mysterianism
    What argument?
  • Philosophy is for questioning religion
    "Theism" is a philosophical position (just as theology – along with ontology & cosmology – constitutes classical metaphysics).
  • Mysterianism
    You must have missed my concluding sentence:
    Btw, I'm in no way a 'mysterian'.180 Proof
  • Philosophy is for questioning religion
    Read any religious philosopher's (auto)biography and note how subtly, even ingeniously, the juxtapositioning inconsistency of reflective reason with devout faith is rationalized (e.g. Augustine, Maimonides, Aquinas, Leibniz, Kant, Buber, Marcel, Tillich, Levinas, Simone Weil, Abraham Heschel, Jean Luc Marion, Cornel West).

    :chin:
  • Mysterianism
    Does mysterianism entail that all brains in the universe cannot understand consciousness, or just us?RogueAI
    No, "just us"; specifically: only human brains cannot scientifically explain human consciousness. IMO, ChatGPT is a toy compared to the AGI that's coming, which I suspect will be exceedingly capable of comprehending human consciousness far in excess of however much we can or cannot comprehend ourselves. Perhaps AGI will even explain us to us in a way we can understand. Btw, I'm in no way a 'mysterian'.
  • Philosophy is for questioning religion
    So, is a persons claim that they are a religious philosopher, the inevitable beginning of losing/rationalising away, their [own] religion?universeness
    Maybe. I think it's more likely, however, that a "religious philosopher" is an apologetic critic of naturalism, irreligion and/or religions (or sects) other than her own.
  • Philosophy is for questioning religion
    "I do not know how to teach philosophy without becoming a disturber of established religion."
    ~Benedictus de Spinoza

    Against the common view that philosophy is a two-thousand-year-old failing enterprise, a body of thought that has produced no knowledge, couldn’t we say that philosophy has in fact done pretty well in bringing dominant beliefs into question, revealing their incoherence or baselessness, or just submitting them to rational enquiry?Jamal
    :up: Yes, of course, beginning with internal critiques of 'mythologies, theologies & ideologies' – including and especially one's own (re: "Gnothi seauton").

    My 2 drachmas ...

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/461359

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/614799

    ... also, a personal appraisal from an old thread "Philpsophy begins in ...":
    Btw, philosophizing began for me in encounters with (raw) stupidity of other teens and adults, then authority figures and institutions, finally profound failures and missed opportunities I'd discovered throughout the histories I'd studied. Recognizing stupidity as endemic to the human condition was my initial existential crisis (i.e. despair) at 16/17 from which, over four decades later, I've still not recovered.180 Proof
    "Ecrasez l'infâme!" ~Voltaire
  • From nothing to something or someone and back.
    Reality is a donut-hole, or nothing out of something. — Thus Spoke 180 Proof
  • On love and madness. Losing ones mind, to find ones heart.
    Marriage [Love] is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage [love again] is the triumph of hope over experience. — Oscar Wilde
    Love is divine only and difficult always. If you think it is easy you are a fool. If you think it is natural you are blind. — Toni Morrison
    If you have reasons to love someone, you don’t love them.

    Love feels like a great misfortune, a monstrous parasite, a permanent state of emergency that ruins all small pleasures.
    — Slavoj Žižek
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    I regard him as a philosopher. He is a practioner of philosophy – Donald Trump; and he is a philosopher of fuckyouism. — Steve Schmidt, former GOP senior campaign advisor, from discussion with former Senator Al Franken (D-MN), podcast 7 May 2023
  • The ideal and the real, perfection and it's untenability
    You're using "ideal" in a colloquial sense as synonymous with aspirational and I replied to it in a philosophical sense as epistemological. Nevermind. Disregard my remarks.
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    However how then is there an "opposite to science".Benj96
    Not "opposite TO" (i.e. opposition) but opposite OF is what I wrote. Opposite of science ... of knowledge ... of explanation ... of truth-telling ... If not 'pseudoscience', then what is the opposite OF science? :chin:

    For me its not "science or .." but rather "science and..." 
    I also don't exclude other intellectual or cultural endeavors e.g. history, music, poetry, philosophy, comparative studies, mathematics, sports, politics, etc.

    For me the term "pseudoscience" is a fancy way of disregarding/dismissing or making inferior or supposedly obsolete all other pursuits outside the realm of science, philosophy ofc being one of them.
    The term means 'false science' or making explanatory claims which fail to – cannot – explain anything. I'm not using the term in a polemical fashion or for rhetorical effect, though it can be used that way as you point out.
  • The ideal and the real, perfection and it's untenability
    How would it make you feel?Benj96
    Like a grown-up kid. :wink:

    Ideals exist for a reason.
    Re: simplifications, abstractions, information compressions ...

    Realism[Reals] also exists for a reason.
    Re: limits, constraints, complexifications ...

    How do approach them?
    "Ideals" can be used to make maps ("ideals") of the territory of "reals".

    Usually as daydreams, occasionally as standards and only infrequently as plans.

    How do you think we ought navigate such a dynamic?
    Deflate "ideals" and do without them as much as we can in order not to occlude "reals" (i.e. not to mistake maps (universals, generalities) for the territory (individuals, particulars) or not to reify abstractions).

    Like nature, refrain from allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good (enough).
  • Emergence
    Fortunately, "no created system" requires – is functionally enabled by – any "aspects of human consciousness" (i.e. a metacognitive processing bottleneck ... à la D. Kahneman's slooooow 'brain system 2'). Sapience sans (beyond) sentience. Butterfly sans (free from constraints-defects of) chrysalis/caterpillar.
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    Where does ethics fall into this?Benj96
    Ethics is a reflective practice (which I mentioned previously) with normative implications similiar to aesthetics. Non-propositional (often suppositional) and pragmatic.

    My first post on this thread, p. 1 ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/803960

    Is it [ethics] pseudoscience? I
    No. It's philosophy.
  • Emergence
    Do you have evidence that the butterfly retains no knowledge of its time as a caterpillar?universeness
    Do we "retain knowledge" of our time as blastocysts? :roll:

    Might the butterfly maintain much of the 'mind' of the caterpillar?
    I imagine crawling is, at best, useless for flying. Maybe butterflies keep caterpillars around just to study them (e.g. "butterflygenesis") or for shitz-n-giggles (à la reality tv, stupid pet tricks, etc) or both? :smirk:
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    I suppose it's a process.
    A slow painful process of overcoming self doubt and learned helplessness.
    HarryHarry
    :up:

    "The opposite" of science is pseudoscience. As @Banno more bluntly alludes to ...
    The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go. — Galileo Galilei
    suggesting that 'dogma & bigotry' obstruct free inquiry (i.e. reflective practice).
  • Emergence
    :cool:

    My "hopes" are silver linings in the dark clouds rolling in. The butterfly, sir, is about to leave the caterpillar's "human" chrysalis (re: ).

    :point:
  • Emergence
    The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe. A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move toward higher levels. — Albert Einstein (1946)

    Our h. sapiens species has shown itself to be uniquely smart enough to create at least one problem for itself so intractably complex in scale and scope that we cannot solve it – climate change accelerated by anthropogenic global warming. Weirdly I'm hopeful that AGI —> ASI – assuming it bothers – will be capable of reframing the parameters of the problem so that it can be solved well enough to save a significant portion of Earth's habitable biosphere and thereby a sustainable fraction (1/2-1/20?) of the human population. I imagine the only significant "planetary terraforming" that will ever be undertaken will be an AGI —> ASI-driven project to terraform the Earth and eventually reverse / end the Anthropocene.


    We are the cure.
  • Will Science Eventually Replace Religion?
    :up:

    Nihilism seems moderately rare ...Tom Storm
    If by "nihilism" you mean 'not believing in anything' (i.e. believing all beliefs are false), then I agree with you, Tom. If, however, you mean 'belief in nothing', then I disagree because most people believe – place highest value – in fictions (e.g. gods, demons, ghosts, souls, miracles, horoscopes, ideology, ideals) either in lieu of or more than they believe – place highest value – in demonstrable something (e.g. nature, facts, uncertainty, cognitive biases / limits, other people, death, etc).
  • Name for a school of thought regarding religious diversity?
    Can you point to any religion that does not have some notion of transcendence as central?Janus
    Advaita Vedanta comes to mind first ... but I suppose it depends on what's meant by "transcendence".
  • Name for a school of thought regarding religious diversity?
    I always liked Ambrose Bierce's definition:

    “Religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.”
    Tom Storm
    :cool: :up:
  • Name for a school of thought regarding religious diversity?
    Would you say that they are all devoid to true content (in their claims)?Hallucinogen
    Yes, "religious claims" have never been publicly demonstrated to be true.

    But what about the claims of religions, are those incompatible, or are you unsure?
    Usually. No.
  • Name for a school of thought regarding religious diversity?
    Are you saying mythology itself holds this view or that the universe of each myth entails incompatability with all others?Hallucinogen
    Neither. I'm saying that "all religions" are myths and that they can be – most, especially dead religions, have been – studied as such. They have the same function (re: pacifying false fears with false hopes) even though their contents may be "incompatible" like e.g. 'styles of art' or 'varieties of medicines' or 'tribal/territorial identities' throughout history and across cultures. I suppose this implies the "doctrine" of religious skepticism.