The situation in Lebanon is still very, very dangerous. It will be difficult to show restraint if both sides keep shooting rockets at each other.

Nicely put. :up:

I'm sure Hamas expected retaliation. But starving the whole of Gaza? That's genocidal.

The people of Gaza are fucked no matter what they do. Do nothing, keep getting land stolen, people killed, prisoners taken, no job prospects, can't even escape by land or sea.

If they fight back, they are called terrorists.

The first time that Hamas initiates combat, it's called an "unprovoked attack" - which, again, if this is unprovoked, I do not know how provocation looks like.

100% agree that killing civilians is wrong. This reply from Israel is utterly disgusting.

Let's hope it doesn't escalate to include other countries.

Very well put, this whole extremely important context is badly missing, and explains a whole lot.

From Al-Jazeera:

Three Hezbollah fighters killed in Lebanon

Three Hezbollah fighters have been killed in Israeli shelling of the Lebanese group’s positions along the Lebanon-Israel border.

Hezbollah’s Al-Manar TV channel named the men killed as Ali Raed Ftouni, Mohammed Ibrahim and Ali Hassan Hodroj.

Earlier on Monday members of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad group had launched a cross border attack against Israel from Lebanon amid the raging war in Gaza. Israeli shelling set off intense fires on the Lebanese side of the border.

Al Jazeera’s Ali Hashem said the killing of Hezbollah fighters represents a “real escalation” at the Lebanese border, noting that the group often retaliates for the killing of its members.

“This would mean that they could launch another attack in the coming hours,” he said. Hezbollah and Israel have not seen a major confrontation since the 2006 war.

Israel has referred to the use of its nuclear arsenal as 'the Samson option' - if you understand the symbology you will understand that relying on this would certainly worry the Israelis. — Tzeentch

Correct.

If they do go that route, it will be because they've determined that they literally will be in a position where they are being destroyed, so they take down everyone with them.

I think the crucial issue now is what the heck is Hezbollah going to do. That's what may prove to be the key aspect in making this a massive war.

Ah, took long enough to hear about the human shields argument.

I mean, given how big Gaza is, Hamas is particularly responsible for Israel shooting down hospitals or schools.

It would be better for the whole group to isolate in one of the biggest areas of the massive Gaza so they can be easily killed by the IDF.

The whole of Gaza is a human shield.

Stikes will continue even if captives are hurt. :yikes:

This is wild.

transcendental theory, as epistemologically grounded as it is, makes explicit there are not two separate things, the real and the representation of the real, a seemingly ontological consideration to be sure, insofar as the representation is not a thing in the same sense as the thing which appears, is — Mww

Kant touch this.

:cool:

Great post, I agree. It's definitely true the Palestinian issue is a thorn in the side of most Arab governments, in large part because they don't have any value for them in terms of resources. The national issue of the Palestinian people, as you point out, is not a unifying theme for them, though for some segments of the population, not a trivial amount, it is still a fiercely felt problem.

I had more in mind, obviously doing armchair psychology, that Hamas felt that all they were getting was humiliation after humiliation, so this attack is a bit of a point of pride. That issue with the Defense Minister walking on the Temple Mount was extremely gross and pathetic.

Granted, Hamas is far from immune from very harsh criticism - then again, at least when I turn of the news, that's all that is talked about, the whole "unprovoked attack" angle, which is just blatantly false. Unprovoked? Jeez. I'd like to see what a provocation looks like.

But I do agree that killing civilians is not good, it's immoral. And I also don't see what Hamas' long term goal is, getting thousands of civilians killed for some prisoners doesn't look like a price worth paying. Then again, I'm not living in Gaza.



Yes, this is what they are indicating they will do, occupy Gaza, maybe get rid of Hamas for good. Maybe they'll get rid of Hamas, and as tend to happens in these things, something much worse will fill the power vacuum.

The issue which is being pointed out is that, if they do carry out a land invasion, they will lose plenty of soldiers and I'm not sure if Israeli society will tolerate a high number of deaths. They will have initial support, but I think such an operation is time sensitive.

As for the ship, I do see it as a potential deterrent for Iran. But I do not see how this deters Hezbollah, if they are forced to fight. Hezbollah does not want to get involved in a fight, Lebanon would be destroyed again, but if things get out of hand, they will fight back. The US could help Israel here, but having the US and Israel pulverize Lebanon would be sick.

Such a scenario is not likely, but as you say, also not impossible.



Agreed. The number of troops is insane. Put it like that, Hezbollah could be pressured to react. It's a big mess. This whole complete blockade of Gaza is ghastly. Wow.

Look, I understand the reaction to being embarrassed, I do. Starving millions of people is not a good reply in any situation.

There’s more to it, but yes. Thank you. My OP point being that I am a self only if, but also when, we are “acting and engaging” in relation with or against the social contract, the ordinary criteria for things; thus that the self does not “exist” as a constant, and for the purpose philosophy wants. — Antony Nickles

This takes us back to the topic of needing others to create some kind of reference to one's self. To this extent, I agree. I don't find it intelligible to suppose a person would develop a concept of selfhood, nor language nor many aspects of being human absent other people.

I think this stops rather short of concluding what you are saying, that the self doesn't exist as a constant and for what the philosophers are looking for. I don't take these things to be mutually exclusive, granted we need others to develop a feeling of selfhood, but once developed, there may be something there.

It all fails because there is nothing that meets classic philosophy’s predefined standard for certainty, i.e. that there MUST be an understanding of “I”, the “world”, “reality”, “experience” that “binds everything together”. To require that outcome is not misleading; it is a delusional fantasy that not only twists our vision of how things are, but blinds us to our part in the world. The danger is its desire to altogether remove the need for us (each “me” defined against us all), even in reducing us to “perception”, “consciousness”, “intention”. So, yes, everything can fall apart, but knowledge is not our only relation to the world, as everything is judged differently, as with the self and the moral realm. — Antony Nickles

Yes, knowledge is but a small part, one could even say fraction, of our relationship with the world - there is a tremendous amount that goes beyond it, or above it or does not apply.

As for this being a delusional fantasy, that's putting it way too strongly. I mean, if you apply it to say, Descartes methodology, you can argue that he is asking for something he cannot attain, which is certainty, we can't meet this standard. We are fallible.

If you have Hume in mind, then his observations are quite sober.

But, as you observe, there is much more to the self that trying to find "it" - as it may not exist. Again, I think we lack sufficient evidence to be too confident one way or the other.

Yeah- I gave it a brief try, but you are correct. Thanks.

I mean, if I see further, it's because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, is all I'm saying.

:snicker:

Man, I mean I think some mystical stuff is pretty cool, like Wittgenstein's stuff in the last parts of Tractatus. It's when it becomes New Agey or "Divine Wisdom" that I find it annoying, like, all of a sudden this person has an experience and thinks they're being insightful. :roll:

Depends on how it is formulated.

But even Kant - whatever you think of him - put strict limits on what could be said about it, which turns out to be extremely little.

And the little he does day does not go beyond all possible experience.

This last claim is fashionable in some mystic circles and whatnot. It's whatever, but, it's been a bit too popular recently, often without taking into account what is being said.

Hegel is a bit of a mess, imo. Others disagree.

From Haaretz:

Reports estimate Israel will launch ground attack in Gaza within 48 hours
Sources in the Biden administration estimate that Israel will launch a ground attack on the Gaza Strip within the next two days, according to The Washington Post.

A spokesperson for the Israeli embassy in the U.S. did not respond to this claim, citing that the embassy does not deal with military issues.

I can't share more, don't want to get into trouble with sharing and all that of paywalled material but, this is important.

What's with this sudden concern of things beyond all possible experience or cognition? You do realize that it's literally beyond experience and cognition, so we can't say anything about it...

Presumably it's a message to Israel's other enemies to not be getting ideas. — Echarmion

It can be interpreted that way. On the other hand it could commit the US military to another war. The aid they get through the US, plus the weapons and the ammunition, more than suffices. Also, if the situation in Lebanon becomes too unstable, Hezbollah may be forced to act. I don't think a ship would be able to stop that.

As a message to Iran though, there, it could be a signal. I don't know. But you have a point.

I doubt the latter, there doesn't seem to be much of a realistic chance to defeat Israel even in an all out effort, and the US has already send a carrier as noted above.

Maybe the Hamas hopes to fatally weaken the IDF in Gaza. It makes at least theoretical sense, but it seems very unlikely to work out.

Of course it could be a sort of 3D chess where Israel occupies Gaza and all the long term costs - materially and politically - are meant to cripple it. But that seems a bit fanciful. — Echarmion

It's a mixture of several factors, including the Temple Mount provocation, creating diplomatic relations with Qatar and Saudi Arabia and trying to negotiate with Israel to free Palestinian prisoners.

If you look at the Israeli press, say Haaretz, they're calling it a disaster for Israel. Of course, if Hezbollah avoids getting dragged in, then Israel will eventually pulverize Gaza again.

Even if Hezbollah gets involved, it doesn't mean Israel will lose, far from it. They can flatten Lebanon quite quickly, the issue would be that Israel does not tolerate high civilian loses and in that respect, it could become much worse.

I doubt Hamas believes it can defeat the IDF. It is more a point of principle, of not being allowed to be insulted by the government and of telling other Arab countries outside Iran that they still exist.

The hostages right now are a key point. But if things remains as they are, Israel will win, as is to be expected.

We will see to what extent this US ship does anything. It's still quite surreal to see, despite the point you made, which is a good one.

US to send aircraft carrier to Mediterranean to support Israel. Who do they think they are fighting, China? This is the world's largest prison. It would be comical if it were not absolutely tragic and disgusting.



Well, that's the issue. From a military perspective alone, the initial stages of this attack were very successful for Hamas. But if this is all they have that is, if they already played all the cards they have, then the only thing they have to negotiate or pressure anything are the hostages. I heard the BBC claim they have around 30 of them.

If Hezbollah does get involved fully, as in a full-scale war, Israel would still win, but the cost would have been extremely high.

We have to see what Egypt will do and Jordan and Turkey. Most scenarios still look bad for Hamas, unless they have something else.

This-is-me” in the sense of: making myself answerable for what will matter to me, what I will be the measure of, what I take as mine, as founding, constituting me in this situation. — Antony Nickles

So, the self as an accountable agent for moral decisions and broader social and contextual circumstances, a bit like becoming who you are by acting or engaging is such a way as to be responsible for who you are.

Yeah, that is another approach to the topic, I believe Kierkegaard talks about this to some extent.

. So I guess I just don’t know what sets what I am saying apart from trying to “articulate (through reason) what this phenomenon is”. What do we want, or need, to explain that we don’t think we can? — Antony Nickles

That's person-dependent, when it comes to specific details. As I understand it, philosophers are trying to elucidate, or find in experience the I, that binds everything together, not only objects in the world, but, as you mention, moral choices too.

But all have failed, to some extent or other. I think it's weakness of understanding, you seem to take a view that it is a misleading or incomplete or potentially risky way to deal with the topic, because there is so much else to consider.

As for legal matters, I do think we have differing pictures of the mind.

It's a kind of experimental state, in that the US sends cutting edge military technology which can be used on a civilian population and have no repercussions, because the Palestinians have nothing to offer (oil, technology, etc.) but their lives. Yeah, once in a while the US can be embarrassed by Israeli actions, but nothing they can't handle.

I wonder, however, have they planned for a wider war? No doubt Tehran & Moscow want one (though Beijing & Brussels certainly don't due to the coming price shocks in global oil markets and winter just a couple months away). — 180 Proof

That's a good question. I am waiting for the obligatory commentary on this topic by Norman Finkelstein, he'll have the best information on the topic.

There are reports of a few minutes ago claiming that Israel and Lebanon have exchanged fire. I know that Hamas has asked Hezbollah to get involved, I don't think they want to, but if an accident happens, they could go in and then all bets are off.



Yes, plenty of times actually, there's lots of examples here, much of it covered in The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim.

As for your question, does it help them? We don't know what will be the long-term consequences of this war, but at the moment, Gaza is going to be destroyed, with overwhelming civilian deaths.

If I were them, I do no know how I would react. The options on the table are all horrendous.

I think for Hamas the idea may be the same: by launching this attack, they note to their people and to the World that they exist. Now for them it's only the part of enduring the Israeli counterattack. Because ending the open prison of Gaza for Bibi will be a very costly thing, hence likely they will make this retaliatory operation and possible free or get freed the prisoners. — ssu

I think this is right. It's a high price to pay in terms of lives, but it's a desperate situation. Ironically, I do believe that if the blockade on Gaza was lifted and the people there had a decent life, violence would go way down. Collective punishment just leads to retaliation.



Yes, these threats are not existential. Few of them are actually, despite Israel's constant fear. The one big scare they had was the 1973 war, the other ones weren't particularly existential for them, though of course, things could have gone differently.

If Hezbollah gets involved, it's impossible to guess how this will turn out. I tend to think that the fact that Israel has moved so far to the right, makes compromises or deals more difficult and costly.

I don't believe that killing civilians has justification, nor celebrating death. All I am saying is that the situation in Gaza particularly, is quite desperate. And if you take that into account with the provocations, land theft and the walk on the Temple Mount, it was a matter of time.

You can't keep humiliating and beating people to death, over and over, and expect nothing.

I thought I had a general idea of what you had in mind, this last post leaves me unsure:

As I understand it, one of the things you are trying to say, maybe the most important one is that philosophers often fall into a trap of trying to force or impose on the self a kind of structure - a "this-is-me" moment, which may not happen, because we are forcing certain demands made by our knowledge onto something which either fails to meet these demands or because we overlook all those other situations in which reason cannot attain what it seeks, the demand of finding this moment of "this is my self" being one way, among many, in which such an issue can arise and be discussed:

"And so, the criteria and circumstances of the life of the self (which may not, or not continually, happen), work and are measured in totally different ways..."

If I am anywhere near what you are trying to say, then yeah, the issue of self arises in many circumstances, most of these circumstances being quite foreign to the usual philosophical obsession with trying to articulate what this phenomenon is, through reason.

What's the problem then?

Sure, such language is excessive, and war is horrible. Nevertheless, one can imagine living in Gaza under some of the worst conditions in the world, if you stay long enough in that situation, I know I would do nearly anything, however morally reprehensible my acts may be.

It feels as if, had they not done something like this, they would simply remained ignored as Israel gets peace treaty after peace treaty with traditional enemies. It's no justification mind you, it's context.

Likewise, if I were going to go to work, or having fun with some friends in a club, if they get kidnapped or worse - it's quite likely I'd want my country to do something, damn the consequences.

It would be ideal if only active military personal were targeted by combatants. That's impossible. Made much more difficult by the situation on the ground. Will it pay off in the long run for Hamas? Or will it only be another, much bloodier war, like the one's we see popping up every 4 years or so?

It's just a tragedy. And again, Israel hurts itself and massacres the worlds largest prison, not helped by the fact that, Israel has the most right wing government in its history.

How Hamas will end up, we do not know. Nor if Hezbollah will be dragged in. But we know the people in Gaza are screwed, as are more Israeli civilians than usual.

To a small extent. As far as I can recall - it's been several years since I read up on this topic in depth - Iran offers more direct help to Hezbollah, but some of it probably ends up in Hamas' hands.

But yeah, it's one of the few remaining states in which the leadership clearly voices support for Palestine, which is why Israel hates Iran so much and even wanted the US to get out of the Iran deal, which Trump did to spite Obama.

Hopefully others here can tell you more details or correct my statement.

Oh sure, it's extremely expensive. And even then, it's not a guarantee against some of the most basic missiles which can be made.

But as long as the US keeps pouring in the foreign aid, why would they care about costs?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/7/from-hubris-to-humiliation-the-10-hours-that-shocked-israel

Interesting article. Makes some good points.

Those rockets look like they belong to Hezbollah to me. I don't doubt Hamas has some limited access to a few precision rockets, but not too much - Israel would usually spot more sophisticated rockets.

Yep, I should've added that they likely have more than one type of missile, but they tend to be rudimentary.

Israel is just on another level, though I've read that, when it comes to the Iron Dome, most of it is PR. That that system is not actually that good and you add that to the quality of Hamas' missiles, you'll get a relatively low missile launched to death caused by missiles ratio.

However, this time Hamas has killed 250 Israelis, that's not a trivial number compared to other Gaza massacres, on day 1, no less.

They're called "Qassam rocket" and the cost ranges from $300-800

https://jinsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Memo_Evaluating-the-Danger-from-Gazas-Weapons-Stockpile-1.pdf

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/defense/israels-push-to-repel-hamas-retaliatory-fire-incurs-heavy-cost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

Worth noting that: The introduction of the Qassam rocket was unexpected by Israeli politicians and military experts,[18] and reactions have been mixed.[19] In 2006, the Israeli Ministry of Defense viewed the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat."[20]

They aren't very effective, given they don't have access to sophisticated materials. But they can still kill, obviously.

Reminds me of some portions of Dhalgren sans the violence. It's difficult for a book to disturb me.

Sounds fine - will add it to my reading list. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, you are probably right. There's a recent quote by the Israeli defense minister, "We will change the face of reality in Gaza years from now."

This will be horrific. :(

see[ing] that each thing has its own criteria. So “degrees of confidence” is still an approach dictated by the desire to see the fallibility of the world as a problem which knowledge can answer (even if sorta), rather than as a truth that shows knowledge is not the only relation we have to the world, others, and ourselves. — Antony Nickles

Now we are in deep waters: what would you say does not count as knowledge, which plays a role in our attempting to deal with or accept or deal with the issue of the self?

I have not thought about this deeply at this moment, but spontaneously, nothing comes to mind.

These are not “natural phenomena”, as vision and awareness and focus are, nor are they our ordinary criteria for judging. — Antony Nickles

How is this not natural?

These are not individualized experiences or perceptions, but they may clash, though not as a matter of an internal something (even if not “perceived”). Our differences are be personal, matter to “me”, which may require me breaking with the judgments of our society, even reshaping the criteria or ordinary working of that judgment, but this is not a “‘fiction’ of convenience”. — Antony Nickles

I agree that in the example provided, we can do away with the case of fictions of convenience. What's less clear is why are these differences not internal? What to me needs water, to you looks beautiful yet, it is by virtue of something internal that we recognize what we end up paying attention to.

Yeah, 198 Palestinians killed. I wonder if having captured civilians will make Israel use some degree of restraint when bombing Gaza. It may.

Yes, ontological principle which makes us postulate "external objects".

It becomes very murky very quickly.

Surprised that the Mossad did not know about this at least 70 Israelis killed. Now Gaza will feel - for the umpteenth time - the hell of the Israeli military, probably going to be several thousand civilians killed in Gaza.

Appears to be a reaction to Israel's provocation of having that minister walking on the Temple Mount. I suppose that in retrospect one should've expected this reply.

I wonder if Saudi Arabia or Qatar will do anything to try and make this shorter than it would otherwise be. Another bloodbath and worst of all is the loss of civilians...

I might read it myself, sound intriguing.

Another massacre... Hamas has hostages this time, I've read.

And yes, as mentioned, exactly what the hardliners in Israel want.

Whatever is out there, strictly speaking, cannot be called "objects" - there no good neutral word for it that comes to mind, unfortunately.

So, let's take the neutral "thing" or "stuff", whatever it out-there is, in part, responsible for how we take these objects to be, they stimulate us into reacting as-if, external objects existed.

But in principle, they are not necessary. But in practice they are.

only that the relation of that project to this issue in philosophy resulted from a pre-imposed requirement (for something certain) — Antony Nickles

I mean, if you have Descartes in mind, as you did in the OP, then sure, certainty can arise in this topic. In such cases of looking for certainty, it's a kind of trap. There is some evidence that suggests that Descartes was in part motivated to write what he did to offer a defeating argument to the reawakening of Pyrrhonian skepticism during his time. Popkin writes about this.

Descartes went as far as is possible into skepticism and we know his results. Today, I think that's putting too much weight into something which has no answer: skepticism cannot be refuted, heck, not even solipsism can be.

Degrees of confidence is a more sensible approach on most topics.

that there is no fact (in me) that ensures things won't fall apart; that we may not understand each other or agree (and not based on an inability to communicate the manufactured sense of "my" experience, perception). His attempt to "solve" this fact of our condition creates the requirement that it be certain, that I "exist", or something does, as "perfect", like math. — Antony Nickles

There is no discernable fact in me. "I" cannot perceive it.

Yet, this stops short of a different issue, whether it (the self, or me or I) exists or not.

It could be a "fiction" of convenience, or it could be a real natural phenomenon, which need not introduce dualism.

that the need or event of our differentiating ourselves from conformity is in response to particular needs of a situation or the interests that we are willing to stand up for, in contrast to philosophy's singular "need" (requirement) that this ongoing duty be relieved from us by knowledge of a fact in us (the metaphysical conception of "me") — Antony Nickles

Sure. Of course, there are situations in which everybody thinks about this topic, and people tend to think about it when a particular situation arises: say you are praised or blamed for some big event. That often leads to an assessment of "oneself."

Philosophy's "need"... for some of them - this is one of those topics which fascinates the philosophers.

Invariably we are going to bring in temporality into the discussion because, it's necessary, almost by definition. We can't speak of anything absent temporality.

But now, I have the feeling that either we are in agreement, or I fail to see the problem you see. Which, if is the case, is all well and good. And if not, that's good too.

What I’ve been doing in this thread is discussing a boring experience in a quite interesting way. It’s actually pretty easy, and everyone does it, e.g., ranting wittily about how boring a movie was. — Jamal

Yeah, and that's what's paradoxical. We usually don't tell boring experiences in the manner we felt them, few people would tell you: I got to work at 8, sat at the desk for 30 minutes, proceeds to detail those 30 minutes, then talks about having coffee, etc.

So, we say these things are boring in a manner that isn't boring, somewhat jumping around it. I'm not saying that we should be boring speaking about boredom as in using bland language and uninspired phrases. To then say nothing about what you are already saying the with the word you are trying to elucidate.

Boredom can be fascinating and funny, in retrospect. Maybe another way that boredom isn’t boring is when the boredomee is not him/herself boring; like Proust, they may have a rich inner life that means that even when they’re bored they’re never boring, if we get inside their mind. — Jamal

Yes, I think there is something to this. It's a type of experience which occurs privately, even though we can all be in boring meeting or a boring office or whatever. Yet what would be the point of even speaking about it if doing so would only produce boredom? Strange.

Then that is rare for me.

Actually, the first 240 pages of Gravity's Rainbow were close to being unreadable. One almost has no clue what is going on. But once it takes off, it's nuts.

The topic of boredom itself is hard to speak about in a profound manner. I think David Foster Wallace's last book, The Pale King, tried to speak about boredom - working in a tax office - while attempting not to be too boring. He never finished the book, due to his suicide.

But if you are dealing with dark themes, it may act as a kind of unconscious impulse to know what's going on. :chin:

Edit: na man, I can feel I'm not making any interesting comments. May try again later. :victory: