When they say “I am a man” they are not saying anything about their biology — Michael

What are they saying?

What are they saying? — Malcolm Parry

That their gender identity is male. Gender identity is psychological/social/cultural, not biological.

That their gender identity is male. Gender identity is psychological/social/cultural, not biological. — Michael

But what does that mean?

Biological men and biological women tend to have a different kind of psychology. The way they think and feel and behave is different. These differences are separate from any biological differences like chromosomes and genitals (even if they most often correlate), and these psychological differences factor into how society and culture is structured.

Sometimes someone who is biologically female develops the kind of psychology typically associated with biological men, and so they identify as a man in that psychological sense, and wish to be treated as a man. “Being treated as a man” is a social and cultural thing, not a biological thing, and doesn’t mean the same thing as “being treated as having XY chromosomes and a penis”.

And this is the problem with anti-trans policies. They don’t care about people as people; they don’t care about how people think and feel. They just think of people as being biological machines, and say that everyone with one set of chromosomes/genitals should be treated one way and everyone with another set of chromosomes/genitals should be treated another way. It’s dehumanising.

And this is the problem with anti-trans policies [...] It’s dehumanising. — Michael

:100:

Biological men and biological women tend to have a different kind of psychology. The way they think and feel and behave is different — Michael

I am aware that there are differences on average between the sexes but it is not clear cut at all. Men on average are more aggressive but not significantly and there are plenty of non aggressive men.
What kind of differences constitute a male v female?

Sometimes someone who is biologically female develops the kind of psychology typically associated with biological men, and so they identify as men in that psychological sense, and wish to be treated as a man. — Michael

Surely that is a woman who wished to be treated as a man. Not a man. I treat everyone as I see fit and how my subconscious dictates. If I see a transman then I will interact as I see fit. What does treated like a man entail? It can be different for everyone. I tailor my conversation etc to who I'm speaking to.

Surely that is a woman who wished to be treated as a man. Not a man. — Malcolm Parry

It’s a biological woman who is psychologically male, and wishes to be treated how society and culture usually treats those who are psychologically male.

I am aware that there are differences on average between the sexes but it is not clear cut at all. Men on average are more aggressive but not significantly and there are plenty of non aggressive men.
What kind of differences constitute a male v female? — Malcolm Parry

You could start with sex differences in psychology.

It’s a biological woman who is psychologically male, and wishes to be treated how society and culture usually treats those who are psychologically male. — Michael

We can go around and around in circles. We all have a few wishes we would like to be granted but why do people need to grant these wishes? Also, I treat people how I see fit. I have some female friends who are treated like one of the blokes. I also, have male friends who are treated with a little more decorum.
How does society and culture treat a male?

You could start with sex differences in psychology. — Michael

Wikipedia? You can do better than that, surely?

I have some female friends who are treated like one of the blokes.

…

How does society and culture treat a male? — Malcolm Parry

You’ve kind of answered your own question.

You’ve kind of answered your own question. — Michael

I don't think society and culture treats people like I treat my mates. There would be a lot of upset people.

I don't think society and culture treats people like I treat my mates. There would be a lot of upset people. — Malcolm Parry

The point I am making is that you clearly understand that in many cases someone’s sex determines the way that they are treated, but that this treatment has nothing really to do with their sex at all - hence when you treat your female friends “like one of the blokes” you are not treating them as “having a penis”.

Obviously the wider society and culture is not identical to your friendship group, but the same principle is at play.

The point I am making is that you clearly understand that in many cases someone’s sex determines the way that they are treated, and that this treatment has nothing really to do with their sex at all - hence when you treat your female friends “like one of the blokes” you are not treating them as “having a penis”.

Obviously the wider society and culture is not identical to your friendship group, but the same principle is at play. — Michael

The point I'm making is that in 2025 people can be whatever they like. No sexist tropes are needed to define a person. So in sports and women's exclusive spaces biology trumps feelings. Everything else, people can be what they want. Like ladies being treated for who they are not what they are.

Would you ask a transwoman out on a date?

I don’t ask anyone out on a date.

I don’t ask anyone out on a date. — Michael

How do you get laid?

Remember the uproar when Rachel Dolezal, a white women, identified herself (or tried to) as black? That didn't sit well with a lot of people. There were accusations of cultural appropriation. To take it to the extreme, imagine Donald Trump identifying as black. Ludicrous, right? Even if lightning were to strike Trump, and he truly believed in his heart that he was black, he's still white. But how is that different than Bruce Jenner identifying as a woman? Why is that tolerated?

The point I'm making is that in 2025 people can be whatever they like. No sexist tropes are needed to define a person. — Malcolm Parry

Okay, but sex differences in psychology are still a real thing, and in a minority of cases someone can have the psychology typically associated with the opposite sex.

And for good or bad gender norms still exist in today’s society.

So in sports and women's exclusive spaces biology trumps feelings. — Malcolm Parry

Why?

How do you get laid? — frank

Usually just spending time with friends and it just happens one night.

Usually just spending time with friends and it just happens one night. — Michael

Could you see it just happening with a trans woman?

Could you see it just happening with a trans woman? — frank

If they’re attractive and have had bottom surgery, sure.

If they’re attractive and have had bottom surgery, sure. — Michael

I think you're probably rare.

I think you're probably rare. — frank

Okay, not really sure what the purpose of this line of questioning was supposed to be?

Okay, not really sure what the purpose of this line of questioning was supposed to be? — Michael

I was just thinking about what Malcolm said. I don't treat women differently than men for the most part. The only time it really shows up is in dating and intimacy. There's a huge difference between having sex with a woman and with a trans-woman, that being that the real woman can have an orgasm. With the transwoman, it's just me?

The point is that in the one way it really makes any difference, there's a huge difference.

Even as a heterosexual man I’m sure I wouldn’t be sexually interested in the majority of cisgender women.

So I still don’t really get the point being made. Regardless of who I have - or want to have - sex with, there is such a thing as psychological/social/cultural gender, and despite its common congruence with biological sex they are distinct things.

despite its common congruence with biological sex they are distinct things. — Michael

Sure. I don't have a problem with that. I don't see gender as being all that significant in the way I treat people though. Biology does make a big difference.

Okay, but sex differences in psychology are still a real thing, and in a minority of cases someone can have the psychology typically associated with the opposite sex. — Michael

What is the mechanism for someone to gave the opposite psychology to their sex? I’m intrigued.

Why? — Michael

Because men should be excluded from women’s sport because they have a competitive advantage. A huge competitive advantage. Shall we start there?

Because men should be excluded from women’s sport because they have a competitive advantage. A huge competitive advantage. Shall we start there? — Malcolm Parry

And on that we agree, as I’ve mentioned before.

But you also mentioned other “women exclusive spaces”, which I assume you mean to be spaces exclusive to biological women.

What such spaces are these, and why do they exist? Perhaps some of these spaces ought be spaces exclusive to gendered women rather than just to biological women.

What is the mechanism for someone to gave the opposite psychology to their sex? I’m intrigued. — Malcolm Parry

That’s an open question. As the Wikipedia article I referenced earlier explains, it’s not clear how much of our psychology - whether concerning gender or other things - is determined by nature and how much by nurture.

And of anything determined by nature it’s not clear what the biological determinants are. Hormones likely play a large part in how the brain develops, which would explain the strong correlation between one set of chromosomes and one broad type of psychology. But the existence of transgender people, non-binary people, and gender non-conforming people (including effeminate men and masculine women) shows that other factors are at play.

There’s likely no single thing. Biology and society are very complex, and so neurological and psychological development also complex.

And on that we agree, as I’ve mentioned before. — Michael

So for sport they aren’t women but they are women for other purposes?
So women already have exclusive places. Bathrooms, changing rooms and shelters for victims of male violence. Do you think men should be excluded from these places?

effeminate men and masculine women — Michael

Exactly and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

So for sport they aren’t women but they are women for other purposes? — Malcolm Parry

For sport we separate people according to biological sex, regardless of gender identity, but for some other things we separate people according to gender identity, regardless of biological sex.

Bathrooms, changing rooms and shelters for victims of male violence. Do you think men should be excluded from these places? — Malcolm Parry

I don’t think all biological men should be excluded from women’s bathrooms, changing rooms, or shelters. I think transgender women, especially those who have medically transitioned, should use the women’s bathrooms, changing rooms, and shelters, just as I think that transgender men, especially those who have medically transitioned, should be excluded from them.