Once again, words matter. — christian2017

Correct, and you opined on issues that Jesus did not oppose without naming them.

There are also issues he did oppose, like the Christian/Jewish no divorce for women and that really vile substitutional punishment policies.

See how it's done?

Words matter, a term you use, while ignoring to put words worthy of thought and impossible to rebut.

Regards
DL

I disagree. — christian2017

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. I did not criticize Maher.

Regards
DL

How is that possible if we are talking about the same god? — Nobeernolife

Mohammad listened to what angel who he said dictated the Quran?

That angel was first mention as being Yahweh's. Right?

Regards
DL

So when Christians are absolutely sure from experience that prays, charms, sacrificing animals, works, yes, it works. — Athena

Yet god never cures amputees, indicating limits to this "works".

Speaking of religion and law, our Christian based correction system is a horror! — Athena

I agree with this and have no argument against the rest of what you put.
You can think prayers work if you like, but please, if you get ill, go to a doctor and not a church.

I do recognized the power of positive thinking and bio feedback but that is it.

Regards
DL

Your claim that both are the same simply shows your ignorance on the issue. — Nobeernolife

Your claim that both are not the same simply shows your ignorance on the issue.

We are done here as you are applying a double standard.

Regards
DL

and infinitely more aggressive. — Nobeernolife

Tell that B.S. to all the victims of their inquisitions.

Regards
DL

Allah hates the followers of Yahweh. If Allah was Yaweh, that would mean he hates his own followers. Clearer now? — Nobeernolife

Not so. He just thinks Christians and Jews should pay an extra tax for their poor thinking.

Allah is just a title like god is. They have a nameless god iand that is why they say Allah is Yahweh.

Clearer now?

Regards
DL

God himself, of course, is omnibenevolent. — TheMadFool

God himself is omnificticious. Prove me wrong.

His genocide and killing when he can just as easily cure, the way Jesus said he came to do is much more benevolent. Right?

We create the gods to serve us, not kill us. Right?

Regards
DL

I actually know alot about Islam. In terms of sexual morality, Mohomad has alot of similarities to the modern Roman Catholic Church. Mohomad had extremely strange sexual practices.

Islam is highly questionable.

Did you see Bill Maher's video about the relationship between christianity and islam? Another user posted it earlier. — christian2017

Christianity and Islam share the same DNA so it should not surprise anyone that they are close in ideology. They are both fascist.

I question both religions on moral issue and all I see are moral cowards who fear judging their gods justly. Cowards can never be moral.

I did look a that video but think I was given the wrong role by Nobeernolife.

I am more like Maher except I get a bit more vulgar when it comes to the genocidal prick Christians worship.

Regards
DL

Do you have an article — christian2017

This link is a video but has the statistical information that would have any half way moral person reject Islam and Sharia law as a decent moral ideology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VidBFG9_QnU

If you cannot watch it, please see the Pew research site for their survey of Islam's major moral tenets. You will find little morality in them.

Regards
DL

The interviewer seems to be a good representation of you: — Nobeernolife

??

I would associate myself more with the guest than the interviewer.

He was correct on every point, I think. He, like me, does not think highly of Christianity and thinks as I do that the Muslin ideology is the epitome of evil ideologies.

What error did you pick up in his presentation?

Regards
DL.

What Jesus does or not do when "he returns" is of no concern for me or any other living person. — Nobeernolife

I agree, but we are talking and comparing ideologies, not realities.

I debate to lose, but point to me buddy.

Regards
DL

Christianity is an integral part of Western civilizations, — Nobeernolife

Not in the case of the laws our secular systems follow.

In Christianity, their penalties are, like secular law, supposed to be close to an eye for an eye.

Need I go get all the penalties of stoning that exceed that intelligent and just penalty.

Christianity is a consolidation of many religious thinking systems. There is nothing original except for Jesus' so called sacrifice. The West and our law has rejected most of it as barbaric and overkill.

Here are facts that refute your view, even though many call our systems Judeo Christian systems.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

Regards
DL

Again: the claim that Yaweh and Allah describe the same deity would logically mean that this deity is schizophrenic.. — Nobeernolife

Why? One fascist god looks about the same as all fascist gods.

Regards
DL

"good and evil" is a metaphor for everything. — TheMadFool

I can agree with this but not the omni levels.

Omni-whatever indicated a full and complete knowledge of an issue. Gnostic Christians never really admit to reaching such an ideal. We are perpetual seekers and even when we think we have reached or found the epitome of an issue, including the gods, we accept it but raise the bar of excellence and seek further. That is why we criticize who we think are poor gods.

If we did not, we would be no better than those who have decided to worship a genocidal god and think such a moral monster to be good.

Regards
DL

First question: why does the quote refer to [many] gods rather than [one] god? — TheMadFool

The Hebrews/Jews had many names for their gods and I don't think they were monotheists till much later. They even had Yahweh having a wife Ashera, If I recall her name correctly.

The first commandment also shows an insecure Yahweh who fears the other gods. God's in those days, were not defined as we do today.

Most have god as a supernatural entity and that stupid thinking is perhaps why the way more complicated thinking of the ancients has been lost to us.

We should restart before supernaturalstupid beliefs took hold, thanks to immoral creeds like Christianity and Islam..

Second question: why is knowledge of good and evil the exclusive purview of god? — TheMadFool

I guess, that given that there was almost no separation of church and state in those ancient days, it would be a given that the king who enforced laws would have free reign. That may be why religions in the day preached that the kings were kings because god had made it so and that they should be bowed to because of that.

Regards
DL

In general, I don't think we are thinking things through very well. That can bring even Rome down. — Athena

Absolutely no argument.

In some things I like to KIS. Keep It Simple.

If I was King for a day, to end the poverty that our tax systems create, I would KIS and have laws written to simply shift wealth from the fat cats on the extreme right of that graph to the left.

Did you note how little wealth we are really talking about? Stats have that basically happening in 30 years but we could enjoy the benefits of doing the moral thing today if we had the political will that the rich control.

Regards
DL

Genesis is saying that defiance of the will of God was the original sin. — frank

If that were true frank, then they would have pointed way back to Gen 1 where god told A & E to reproduce. That would have been the first infraction because they did not even attempt to do so till Gen 4.

Scriptures show that they had no real free will because they did not know good from evil as they had yet to educate themselves by consuming the knowledge of the choices they had.

Regards
DL

Does a chimp know the difference between good and evil? Do humans behave like chimps? Do chimps think like humans? We are as God made us and we were not made of mud. :lol: — Athena

Just as an aside.

In some ways, chimps think better than humans. Tests with chimps and children have shown that, while both species are almost perfect mimics, humans will not dither out and ignore steps in what they mimic that are not required to finish the task given, while chimps know enough/better to eliminate steps that are not required.

I think this oddity is due to the fact that humans are the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet and are not risk takers. Our instincts do not know that we have become the greatest apex predator on the planet.

Regards
DL

Out of all the cultural forms that existed alongside it thousands of years ago, the Hebrew form is the only one that survived. That tells you that the message: "Conform!" was not embraced out of fear, but out of a deep abiding love (probably for ancestors to some extent). — frank

You kind of have it backwards and do not seem to know that the Jews had the reverse moral to the Eden myth than what Christians put to it. Further, Christians are conflicted as they call Eden where man fell, while at the same time singing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan. Their apologists, and even I, used to be able to do a decent apologetics on this but I have not seen a decent apologist in 10-15 years and I refuse to educate Christians on their own foil religion.

These days I just make Christians run away by asking them if they would refrain from doing as Adam did and derail Yahweh's plan. Christianity wants simpletons for sheeple and that is what they mostly have.

The Jews did not have an Original Sin concept. They had and still have an Original Virtue concept. They have both Yahweh and man coming out of Eden as winners while Christians have Yahweh and man as failures. Jews are smarter in this than Christians.

Regards
DL

On the other hand, it seems this custom may be at least as prevalent today as it was one to five thousand years ago, so I'm not sure what historical point you're making. — Cabbage Farmer

Only that it is stupid to read myths literally and that the ancients were brighter than literalist fools.

Regards
DL

I've heard that some scholars interpret the knowledge in the story to mean "knowledge of everything". How is knowledge of everything "subject" to the distinction between good and evil, on your account? This sounds interesting. — Cabbage Farmer

I cannot think of any issue or knowledge that is not subject to being good or evil. I can substitute those words with right or wrong as analogies without conflict.

Can you name anything that is not subject to those term, whichever ones you prefer?

Isn't this a rather common version of the story you're referring to -- that it's the fruit they were told not to eat? — Cabbage Farmer

It is common and wrong and as I said, is likely designed to downplay what was at stake. We can all live without an apple. We cannot live without the education that knowing good and evil gives us.

Apple trees give apples to eat. Orange trees give oranges. Knowledge trees give knowledge and in our dualistic world, that is the knowledge of good and evil.

Perhaps you should stop trying to argue against intentions that don't exist. Such unseemly behavior for a Bishop! — Cabbage Farmer

Why do you suggest I'm trying to "downgrade the command to a mere fruit"? — Cabbage Farmer

You are right that I replied thinking intent. I am a cranky old bastard is my only defence, as well as having had to correct way too many Christians and not being patient enough to wal people through it.

Do claim to know the intention of Yahweh in the myth? Isn't it possible that he set it up as a sort of trial or obstacle -- somewhat as philosophers have sought to resolve the "problem of evil" by explaining the existence of moral wrongdoing as a consequence of free will? — Cabbage Farmer

Yahweh already knew man would sin as he had already chosen Jesus as the sacrifice to redeem man.
That's scripture. As to trials or obstacles, an omnipotent god would already know the outcome of all tests.

We have free will to the limits of physics and nature but have no choice in being sinners. Nature causes us to evolve and either compete of cooperate at all times. When we cooperate, we cause no particular harm, but when we compete, the loser will think evil has befallen him. All the human to human evil is thus just a small evil within the greater good of our not going extinct.

That view is why I have no problem of evil.

Is there only one Christian ideology, on your account?

What does it say about letting God think for us? — Cabbage Farmer

No. There are a number of ideologies from right wing loonies to left wing progressives. There is also the Gnostic Christian view that is a universalist ideology which makes it superior to all cults or sects that posit a heaven and hell. Hell would be god admitting to being an incompetent creator who cannot create a majority of good souls. Note how scriptures say that the vast majority of us will take the wide road to he'll while only the few will reach the narrow path to heaven.

As to who should think and decide on what is good and what is evil. These go together

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

The first tells us we know good from evil and the other tells us to judge all issues for ourselves.

If Christians did as the bible bids, they would all reject that genocide from Yahweh is good and would become honest and more moral Gnostic Christians that would fry Yahweh's genocidal ass.

Regards
DL

No, they do not. The description of God figure is completely different, and if you think of islam as a sort of Arab Christianity all you do is demonstrate that you have not researched the issue at all. Zip, zilch, nada. — Nobeernolife

Watch this little skit and come back and tell us what major differences you see between right wing Christians and right wing Muslims. You might think that because Muslims kill their apostates, they are better than Christians, but remember that when Christian Jesus returns, he is to kill all apostate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYV7KWQ-fY4

Regards
DL

Well, thank you for setting things straight. I am not that interested in the popes, so I will bow out. But when it comes to being our own god, I don't think that is what a person wants. That is a lot of responsibility and I think we avoid responsibility when we can. :lol: — Athena

We are designed to seek to be the fittest by evolution. Those who no longer seek that have decided to not compete to be the fittest minds.

The fittest step up to all responsibilities that they excel in.

Even in these places, you see many competing for their ideas to be accepted as the fittest.

You do as well. No?

Regards
DL

where do you get off comparing the two? — Nobeernolife

The short answer.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
------------

Inquisitions and Jihads are, at their roots, tools to control thinking.

They are not as lethal as they were in the past, but both religions named are still trying to control how we think of equality against women and gays.

You are right in thinking that Islam is the worst of the ideologies out there, but they share Christianity's DNA..

Regards
DL

Being moral is about the whole nation and our children's future. — Athena

Indeed.

I wok that angle on the immoral way we are leaving our children an environment that will cause them all kinds of hardships. Perhaps even to the point of adding humans to the list of animals that will go extinct in the major extinction event that is going on as we speak, --- thanks to our vile ways.

Regards
DL

That morality is essential on a national level. Democracy is about all of us working together for a better life that we all share. — Athena

Indeed, but look at what we have instead.

https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2

Regards
DL

What makes Christianity work for millions of people is moral stories bring out the best in us. They help us understand a good way to respond to problems, and when this thinking becomes a habit more things seem to well for us. A Christian thanks God for the blessing. A secular person will realize the cause and effect. — Athena

The way I understand the definitions, morals are the thinking part and ethics are the action part.

I share your wish that business and governments would be more democratic but they have a long way to go yet.

Christianity may work for millions, as you say, but it does not work to bring equality for all as they continue to preach their homophobic and misogynous teachings that victimises more millions than what it works for.

I think that the sooner we rid ourselves of the religions that are inferior in law to secular law, Christianity and Islam leading that list, the sooner all will have equality.

Regards
DL

So what is the death toll for the "Cathar inquisition"? And is it ongoing today, like the Jihad? — Nobeernolife

https://www.google.ca/search?sxsrf=ALeKk02U_-oQX7str4HtAb3gTus6L6wjLw%3A1584643992048&ei=mL9zXvy_AtGMggeb6rXADw&q=inquisition+death+toll&oq=inquisition+death+tole&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i13j0i13i5i30l9.4943.5226..7434...0.2..0.120.235.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.E5G2ICM9v_g

Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in 1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are convinced that millions died

That is somewhat how research is done, otherwise, one looks like you with his foot in his mouth.

Now if you want an even better estimate, ask google for the Christian victim death toll between 30 ce to 1478 ce, including the death of all the Christian against Christian sects that when on almost forever..

Regards
DL

couple of hundred people, — Nobeernolife

More lies. Just the Cathar inquisition murdered more than what you put.

I guess that you have no clue as to how to research an issue.

You lie as easily as all Christians.

Regards
DL

Not much of an answer to where your prattling abot 20,000 years of peaceful goddesses comes from. I am not holding my breath for an reference of substance. — Nobeernolife

Too lazy to do your own research I see. I will give you the opportunity to reject my sorces, while you give nothing in return to refute any of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

If I recall, the punch line and what I put of our previous history is in the last 10 minutes. I imagine your attention span is less than that.

Pardon my tone, if you can, but I hate those who would make all women second class citizens bracuse of their hate for their mothers.

Regards
DL

Oh boy, talk about having things backward. I agree with you that women as a group have different characteristics (as is shown by research, cf. Jonathan Haidt, but their exaggerated empathy and lack of protective instinct for the tribe makes them extremely dangerous as political leaders. Especially in combination with the astonishing lack of political knowledge shown by research (by the Guardian, nontheless of women, and that across all age, education and ethnic groups).

Fundamentally, suffrage for women was a big mistake by Western societies. — Nobeernolife

That is not Haidt's teachings and you are too bigoted for me to bother with a guy who would make all women second class citizens.

You stupidly forget Cleopatra. Your mother must have been a real bitch for you to hate women so much and think they do not protect their offspring's.

You stupidly forget that in the U.S. 50% of all households are manned by single women.

Who is the most protective, fool?

Deadbeat men of the women who step up to be both mother and father?

Regards
DL

How do you interpret the figure of Christ in the myth? As a unique historical person, or as a Christ-nature in all human beings analogous or identical to Buddha-nature and Atman, or what? — Cabbage Farmer

I use the interpretation of the older and wiser ancient people.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

What counts as "knowledge of good and evil"? How does it make humans "like gods"?

How do you interpret the imperative to not eat the fruit? — Cabbage Farmer

It was not a fruit so stop trying to downgrade the command to a mere fruit when it is the knowledge of everything as everything is subject to the adjective of good and evil.

To your first. In the myth, Yahweh ties knowing the knowledge of good and evil to our developing a moral sense and the command tried to prevent that.

Strange that when the Christian ideology says that we should let god do tour thinking for us.

A great way to make people stupid and unable to think for themselves, even as scriptures tell us to judge all things.

Regards
DL

All religions are built on past religions and calling one set of concepts "myths" and another "religion" creates a delusion that we need to destroy — Athena

Words of wisdom.

Regards
DL

I wish I could remember the exact page in my very old logic book from a different time when we people were not so sure of themselves so I could quote it. It stresses we should never be too sure ourselves because our knowledge is very limited — Athena

One of the sages said that whenever we are looking at propositions, we should not be for or against so as to try to look at it honestly and without a bias. That is tough to do. Especially for the religious as they are prone to let their tribal affiliations override their moral sense. That is how trump got elected and how Christians end in the idol worship of a genocidal satanic god that they can somehow see as good.

We have specialized and narrowed our thinking far too much to have good judgment and we don't listen to our elders who know better. — Athena

I am reluctant to agree here as I think the newer generations are better thinkers than those of the past. Inquisitions and Jihads dominated the past and that thinking is definitely inferior to what people are thinking today, except for the right wing loonies who are still in inquisition and jihad mode.

They cannot murder as they did in the past but they still have the same mindset as demonstrated by their homophobia and misogyny. The hate is still in their hearts. They just cant act on it except to discriminate without a just cause.

Education for democracy has promoted fast thinking and discouraged slow thinking. — Athena

No argument. But given that we all live in oligarchies and do not have any working democracies in the world that I know of, does it matter what we think of democracy other than the facts that there are none?

we have a moral problem — Athena

Individually, I disagree.

We have an ethical problem. Left to think independently, the vast majority live by the Golden Rule. We are in fact too nice to each other. Check any marker for evil, death by violence, war, poverty, slavery, etc. and you will find that we are enjoying the best statistics than we ever have.

Back to your main point. Unfortunately most cannot think independently because we are the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet and that insecurity slaves us to out tribes/religious instincts and that makes us follow religions that are run by greedy and immoral con men and liars.

Regards
DL

You made an assertion...I've asked you to back it up...and you have declined. — Frank Apisa

I did not decline and gave you 2 link. If a 1,000 years of Dark Ages is not enough for you, bite me.

Fetch boy fetch yourself, and provide the histories of the popes you named. Dummy.

Regards
DL

Frank Apisa — Frank Apisa

What a dummy you are.

Did you really expect that I would be your dog and fetch on command.

All I need is this link. Instead of me taking the time to explain it all to you, just take the time to watch it and learn.

https://www.worldhistory.biz/photos-and-videos-ancient-history/90919-history-of-the-christianitys-first-1000-years.html

That or just recognize the truth in the last link of what follows.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

What? Christianity is 5000 years old? In what universe? — Nobeernolife

Christianity is based on 5,000 year old Egyptian and Sumerian myths.

Can you give us an overview over this 20,000 years of history — Nobeernolife

No need, but I can link you to the appropriate scholars if you want to take better than on hour educating yourself. Warning, it is a boring process.

No need because all you have to di is look at when we started to fortify our city states. Just after creating our male gods of war.

Regards.
DL

t the female vote is majority anti-Trump and pro globalist, — Nobeernolife

Thanks for showing us why women should rule.

They like to gather consensus while that seems to offend you.

Women unite, men divide.

Sure, men have ruined many to make them like you, but most are too intelligent.

When they decide to collectively protect humanity, we macho stupid men had better get T F out of their way.

We are killing our planet and you want to divide it more to insure it dies.

I look forward to Athena pinning your ears back and showing you for the goof you are.

Regards
DL