His objection is philosophical: the equation should describe the world in a completely deterministic way; they don’t describe ‘what the world is doing’. But what if ‘the world’ is not fully determined by physics? What if it is in some fundamental sense truly probabilistic, not entirely fixed? He doesn’t seem to be able to even admit the possibility. — Wayfarer

This doesn't seem to be true:

Penrose’s attack is directed at determinism and materialism, still dominating the scientific environment and, in particular, neurosciences and believing to be able to reproduce human thought in a computer: «I have my reasons not to believe in this. Some actions of the human thought may be certainly be simulated computationally. For example, the sum of two numbers or even more complex arithmetic and algebraic operations. But human thought goes beyond these things when it becomes important to understand the meaning of that in which we are involved».

From Here

Hence Penrose’s insistence that quantum physics is just wrong - because of his unshakeable conviction in scientific realism. — Wayfarer

I think this is a bit misleading. Here Penrose says that what he means is that QT is incomplete, and when he says 'wrong' he admits he is being "blatant". Also his target for wrongness is not QT as such, but a specific interpretation which claims that it is consciousness which collapses the wave function.

Every proposed fundamental particle has been broken down into further particles in experimentation, implying infinite regress. — Metaphysician Undercover

Why would that necessarily be so? For all we know there is nothing more fundamental than quarks. There does seem to be a limit to the possibility of measurement, that much is known.

Recall that in the early modern scientific model, the measurable attributes of bodies were said to be different from how the object appeared to the senses. This is central to the 'great abstraction' of physics that Berkeley was criticising. — Wayfarer

I'm not sure how you are relating what you say here to the point I made. The idea of fundamental constituents of material objects has been around since Democritus, and as far as I know, those constituents had, until fairly recent times, never been thought to be measurable, and in any case a fundamental limit of measurability has been determined (the Planck length). Rather it would seem to be how the object appears to the senses that is, potentially at least, measurable.

Perhaps we could study philosophy, and also study philosophically, rather than referring everything to science as the arbiter of reality. — Wayfarer

It is not that science is the "arbiter of reality'―the question is rather as to what our metaphysical speculations and conclusions should be guided by.

Science provides no guidance on this. It is a metaphysical question. The fundamental matter/energy assumption falls to infinite regress in scientific experimentation. — Metaphysician Undercover

I could equally say that imagination, intuitions, feelings and wishes provide no guidance on metaphysical questions.

Do you have a reference or an argument for your 'fundamental matter/ energy' claim?

We noted above that what Berkeley denies is not the reality of the objects of sense, but of a material substance — something which underlies and stands apart from the objects it comprises. — Wayfarer

Why would it be thought that material substance "stands apart from the objects it comprises" if it is what constitutes them? This looks like a strawman.

Kant doesn’t say our faculties impose order on “reality in itself” — only on the raw manifold of intuition as it is given to us. — Wayfarer

What is given to the senses cannot plausibly, or even coherently, be thought to be unstructured, undifferentiated in itself and yet give rise to a shared world of phenomena. If all the differentiation and structure originated with the individual human subject the fact of a shared world becomes inexplicable, unless a collective or universal mind be posited, and it is precisely that (God) which Berkeley posits.

Such a universal mind (deity) is a thinkable possibility as is a fundamental substance (matter/ energy) of which all things are constituted. The salient question is which seems the more plausible, and since there is no strict measure of plausibly, the answer to that will vary among folk.

Should we take science as our guide to determine which seems more plausible, or should we take our imagination, intuitions, feelings and wishes?

But that’s not the same as being epistemically open to being proven wrong now, while we’re talking about the evidence. — Sam26

The point was just that there is no strict measure of what evidence should be convincing for everyone, other than direct observation ( and even there we have those who think there is room for skepticism).

The other thing is that we all have limited time and so must prioritize what seems most important to us individually to investigate, if we wish to investigate anything at all. So, I acknowledge that it is possible that if I had researched the NDE phenomena as thoroughly and for as long as you apparently have, then I might be convinced. The problem is it is not important enough for me to motivate doing that because I figure I'll either find out one day when I die (if there is life after death, otherwise not) or if I have my own NDE I might be convinced by that.

Saying “it’s not important” sounds less like humility and more like a way of keeping the question at arm’s length so it doesn’t disturb the framework you’ve already settled into. — Sam26

I'm only saying it's not important to me personally―or at least not important enough to motivate me to investigate it. I don't think there is any fact of the matter as to whether it is important tout court.

I’m not asking you to agree with me—I’m asking you to acknowledge that the evidence exists and that dismissing it wholesale is a choice, not a necessity. Choosing to live with “the reality of our ignorance” should mean keeping the file open, not declaring the case unanswerable before you’ve read it. — Sam26

I do acknowledge that, so I'm not, as I said, saying no one should be convinced by the evidence.

You didn’t personally witness the Big Bang, World War II, or the formation of Mount Everest, but you accept those as realities because the convergence of evidence is strong. — Sam26

I accept the Big Bang provisionally as the most plausible current theory. I can see absolutely no reaosn to doubt that WW2 happened. I accept plate tectonic theory as the most likely explanation for the formation of Everest that we now have.

As for “misremembering, collusion, or fabrication”—those are always possible, but possible in the same way they’re possible in eyewitness testimony for any event. — Sam26

That's true of course, but I think I have less reason to doubt eyewitness accounts of ordinary events than I do of extraordinary ones. And even then I'm fundamentally skeptical of testimony regarding legal claims, having the view of the reliability of human memory and testimony, not to mention honesty, that I do.

(On account of this I would never want to be on a jury, because the thought of wrongfully convicting someone horrifies me. Of course I understand that it is necessary that there be juries, but I'll happily leave the task to those who are more comfortable with passing judgement).

I also hear you say you’re “not all that interested” because you can’t change whatever the truth is. But this isn’t just metaphysical curiosity, it’s about what kind of beings we are, what we mean by “life” and “death,” and how we shape ethics, medicine, and meaning in light of that. — Sam26

The shaping of ethics and medicine should be done only with regard to this life in my view, because I believe this life is all we can know with certainty. Similarly, that's why I think religion, in the sense of otherworldly concerns, should be kept out of politics. As to "meaning", wherever we are not forced to accept meanings imposed by others, we all develop our own meanings out of life experience, and I think that is as it should be.

And finally, the line about never being proven wrong if there’s nothing after death? That’s not an advantage, it’s an evasion. The real question is: are you willing to examine the evidence without protecting your conclusions in advance? If the answer is no, then the conversation isn’t really about evidence, it’s about comfort. — Sam26

If it's an evasion it is not my evasion. I can be proven wrong, because I assume there is no life after death. If there is life after death I will be proven wrong. I will never be convinced by the kind of testimonial evidence you are convinced by. But that's OK―there is no strict measure of plausibility, and we all believe what we personally find most plausible. I just don't think it's that important―I think what is important is living this life the best way we can, which for myself involves accepting the reality of our ignorance in those matters where I believe reliable knowledge is impossible.

So, don't get me wrong―I am not for a minute saying you should not believe in NDEs, I'm just saying that I personally don't find the evidence convincing.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to my argument. You’re assuming from the outset that consciousness surviving clinical death is extraordinary and therefore requires some special, elevated evidential bar. — Sam26

From my perspective it's an extraordinary event simply because I have never experienced such a thing, and none of the many hundreds of people I have known personally have ever claimed to have an NDE.

And if you want to put NDEs in the same box as Bigfoot or UFO abductions, you’re ignoring the key difference: veridical perception—accurately describing events, objects, or conversations that occurred while the brain was offline, and which were later confirmed by independent witnesses. — Sam26

How do I know the corroborations of those witnesses do not consist in misremembering, collusion or fabrication? I don't have any "horse in the race"―if it turns out that my consciousness survives the death of the body, I'll deal with it then. In the meantime I might be convinced if I experienced an NDE myself or perhaps even if sometime whose veracity I trusted sufficiently told me they had such an experience. But even then I might think there could be some other explanation, because after death survival of personal consciousness seems so implausible given what is known about the brain.

I'll confess I'm not all that interested simply because I cannot do anything about whatever turns out to be the reality anyway. I guess one advantage of believing in the survival of consciousness, like the belief in God, is that you cannot be proven wrong―if there is no consciousness after death you will never know you were wrong.

The brain might be a kind of interface or transceiver, not the sole producer of consciousness. Damage the radio, and you can’t hear the broadcast, but that doesn’t mean the signal isn’t still there. — Sam26

The brain is almost infinitely more complex than a radio or a computer, and yet the radio or computer can receive much more information than the brain. If the brain were merely a transceiver why would it need to be so complex?

We rely on multiple classes of testimony across serious domains every day: eyewitnesses in court, patient self-reports in medicine, historical documents in scholarship, field notes in anthropology, and yes, expert statements. — Sam26

Sure we do rely on such inexpert testimony in many contexts, but the testimony relied on in those contexts is about commonly experienced events, not claims about extraordinary events like NDE's, or sighting Bigfoot or UFOs or being abducted by aliens.

That passage reads like nonsense―can't find anything there to respond to.

↪Janus
coherent
Reminds me of that word, “proof”. — Punshhh

Sorry I previously missed this response of yours. I'm not getting what you are getting at.

For what its worth, the dictionaries seem to cite that "real" as a definition of "existent". But it seems pretty clear that "real" in most of its uses does not mean exists and "non-existent" is not an antonym for "unreal", not is "unreal" a synonym for existent. What the dictionaries seem to miss is that the meaning of both "real" and "exists" depends on the context - on what is being said to be real or exist.

Nevertheless, it is hard to believe there are many cases in which one would want to say that something real didn't exist, even though it is quite normal to accept that something unreal does exist - under a different description. A toy car is not a real car, but it is a real toy. A painting may not be a real Titian, but it is a real forgery. &c. One needs to bear in mind several close relations like actual, authentic, genuine, and so on.

It is pretty clear that are used in different ways in many contexts. So I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean by "But that something -- the distinction itself -- does not depend on our use of "real" and "existent" to describe it." — Ludwig V

Yes, the various meanings and associations of 'real', 'existing' are context dependent. We can say that numbers are real in that they have properties that no one can sensibly deny. We can say that they don't exist, however, because no one has ever seen a number.

On the other hand it could be said that number exists as perceptible quantity. We can see the difference between two oranges and eight oranges, for example. What I object to is the idea that is, at least implicitly, in the OP that there is some absolute "higher" distinction between the terms that only the "illuminated ones" can fathom. Such claims are nothing more than dogma.

Let me be blunt: if you think testimony isn’t evidence, then you’re not just wrong—you’re being selectively inconsistent. You accept testimony as evidence all the time: in courtrooms, in history books, in journalism, in scientific discovery. Much of what you believe about the world has been passed to you through other people’s words. Testimony is a fundamental mode of knowing. That’s not a fringe claim; that’s epistemology 101. — Sam26

There is testimony and then there is testimony. The kinds of testimony you say we all accept is expert testimony which has been tested, documented and peer-reviewed. The testimony you are citing is not of the same kind.

Contrary to protestations and resentment from many, that's what Philosophy is. — Banno

Right...as I seem to remember Hegel putting it: "The same old stew, reheated".

That's very cute! And apt in a way I find I can't articulate.

Idealism is the predominant metaphysics in western society. Surprise, surprise! — Metaphysician Undercover

That seems to be factually incorrect at least when it comes to philosophers: https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/all

I have been arguing that the picture given by empiricism, the supposed "empirical reality", is incorrect, false and misleading. — Metaphysician Undercover

I haven't seen any argument for that conclusion. Can you briefly state what " inconsistencies, problems, failures" are to be found with empiricism? Be concise, no hand-waving.

To your whole post :up:

That, and that the OP was by Frank, who is at the least earnest in his posts. — Banno

"Do you want me to be Frank? I'll be Ernest if you'd rather" Benny Hill.

It's "reliability" is relative, and context dependent, so your dismissal is just an attempt to avoid the reality that it answers your question, regardless of whether answering your question gets us anywhere or not. — Metaphysician Undercover

Let's grant for the sake of argument that (intellectual) intuition sometimes might give us an accurate picture of the nature of reality ("reality" here meaning something more than mere empirical reality, that is not merely things as they appear to us, but rather some "deeper" truth metaphysically speaking). How do we tell when a particular intuition has given us such knowledge?

I won't respond to the rest of your post as it seems like either sophistical nonsense or inaccurate speculations about my motives.

Hmm, seems like the same accusation was leveled against me. That indicates that the person making the accusation is really the one with the idiosyncratic definition. — Metaphysician Undercover

No, you and Wayfarer share an idiosyncratic definition, and surprise, surprise! you are both idealists. As I said, if we want to say 'there are noumena' that amounts to saying 'noumena exist' under any ordinary understanding of what the term 'exist' means. We would be saying that noumena are not merely imaginary entities, but are real.

We would be saying that noumena are not merely mind-dependent or perception dependent entities (phenomena) but are mind-independently real entities. Saying, as Wayfarer does, that they neither exist nor do not exist may have some evocative or poetic point, but in a discursive context, it is just nonsense, because in its contradiction it tells us nothing.

How can I perceive something that transcends the category of existence? It's hard enough to perceive things that don't exist! Unless -- as I was trying to suggest -- "the world" and "the in-itself" are not the same. This was the distinction I was drawing between "our world" and "the world of noumena." — J

If there are things in themselves (noumena) which appear to us as phenomena, then we do perceive things in themselves, but we do not perceive them as things in themselves (and this is so by mere definition). It there are noumena then by any ordinary definition of 'existence' they can be said to exist.

@Wayfarer wants to insist that his own idiosyncratic definition of 'existence' is the correct one, which is absurd given that the meanings of terms are determined by (predominant) use.

I can give you a more common example. Suppose we can agree to "love and beauty cannot be explained by logic." It does not follow then that "love and beauty involve contradictions," or that "to say one is in love, one must affirm a contradiction." — Count Timothy von Icarus

Such a weak analogy! Many, probably most, people experience love and beauty. They are simply not governed by logic―not things we use logic to understand―we understand them by feeling them. The Trinity is a concept―either an illogical, that is self-contradictory, concept or incoherent, and not a concept at all but just a string of words that make no sense.

To quote C.S. Lewis from The Problem of Pain: — Count Timothy von Icarus

All that quote shows is that God is subject to logic, just like the rest of us. So, not omnipotent.

You are going to be accused of not getting the point, while a coherent explanation of the point will never be forthcoming.

But it's not a rebuttal to the philosophical question: what is the nature of the reality we claim to know? — Wayfarer

Your position entails that we cannot know anything at all about reality "in itself" and I agree with that as far as it goes.. So, we are left with what we know of reality as it appears. We don't know with certainty what appearances tell us outside the context of appearances and I've never claimed otherwise. We simply deal with what seems most plausible.

We certainly do have the faculty of being able to experience.

Again you are wrong. I offer reasoned counterpoints and critiques which you apparently cannot deal with so you resort to insult or you just ignore what I've said. I feel no hostility towards you because I have nothing to defend. The hostility seems to be all from your side. I'm not the one delivering personal attacks, I attack only the ideas, not the person.

I simply express what I think, make the criticisms that I think need to be made. You could try actually engaging the counterpoints and critiques for a change. You might actually learn something. Or if you can successfully refute my objections I will concede as much.

I don't see you engaging with anyone on these forums who disagrees with you.

I see you are offering much the same kind of critique as I have. Let's see how @Wayfarer responds.

This seems a typical obfuscation from you. The evasive slur, when you actually know nothing about my "educational limits" makes you look like a very "poor faith": interlocutor.

Exactly what have I said is both obvious and absurd? Try engaging with others' responses for a change―you might come to understand what they are actually saying.

If all you're saying is that what we experience is mediated by our senses, our bodies and brains, then you are saying nothing controversial.

We can say that because things have their own existences independent of our perceptions, their own existences will not be the just the same as our perceptions and judgements. But you are wont to say that they don't even have their own existences, which makes your position look extremely confused.

Poetic, or perhaps not so poetic, musings. No one denies that children can play nonsense games together.

I asked for a quote from Peirce wherein he say his semiotics were inspired by Augustine.

Experience is not a faculty. — Metaphysician Undercover

Each of the five senses are perceptual faculties, as well as interoception and proprioception. All together they constitute the faculty of experience, not of particular experiences, but of being able to experience.

So-called intellectual intuition does not give us reliable knowledge, it consists mostly of imagination applied to ideas derived from experience.

You are still just blowing hard, and getting nowhere.

Maybe. Likewise, the four gospels correspond to the four elements. Matthew is earth, Mark is fire, Luke is air, and John is water. This, multiplied by the three states: mutable, fixed, and cardinal, equals the number of apostles, the number of the tribes of Israel, and of course, months of the year. There are numbers all over the place, such as the birthmark on my scalp: 666. :grin: — frank

Nice extrapolation!

Relating to a different tradition, Hinduism, the three modes: Cardinal, fixed and mutable can be equated with the trinity of creation, preservation and destruction embodied in the Hindu Trimurti as Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. Of course this is a very different conception than the Christian trinity.

And then we have the rhree Gunas:

The three gunas are fundamental qualities in Indian philosophy that describe the nature of all things:
Tamas: Represents darkness, inertia, and chaos. It is associated with lethargy and ignorance.
Rajas: Signifies activity, passion, and movement. It is linked to desire and restlessness.
Sattva: Embodies purity, harmony, and balance. It is connected to knowledge and enlightenment.

These gunas interact to influence human behavior and the natural world, forming the basis of all creation. Understanding these qualities can help in achieving balance and insight in life.
(I copied and pasted the above because I'm lazy).

Gurdjieff said that man is "third force blind". His three forces he called the Holy Affirming, the Holy Denying and the Holy Reconciling. One example he gave was bread; people think bread is flour and water, but they forget the baking he says. Maybe he got this straight from Hegel, or maybe it is just an inevitable outcome of thinking about how things are for us.

It seems all this trinitarian stuff is basic to the logic of all human experience and thought. As soon as we divide the world into self and other, the third thing of the relationship between self and other becomes obvious. It seems clear that the ideas of creation, preservation and destruction apply to the becoming of all things.

This is factually incorrect. Charles Sanders Peirce's theory of signs is based explicitly on his study of scholastic theories of signs that were developed originally by Saint Augustine. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Do you have a citation where Peirce admits as much? If not it's mere speculation.

This definition is based in human experience. You define "exist" as what is not imaginary. So you base the definition in imagination, and say whatever is not imagination, exists. But that's self-refuting, because your definition is itself imaginary, you are imagining something which is not imaginary, i.e. exists, but by that very definition, it cannot exist. — Metaphysician Undercover

It means that we must go beyond experience if we desire to understand the nature of reality. Since many people believe that truth is limited to what can be known from experience (empiricism), but others do not believe this, then it is very important, and not pointless to note this distinction. — Metaphysician Undercover

You contradict yourself. You say definitions are based in human experience and then go on to say we must go beyond experience, while saying that something beyond human experience cannot exist. This is hopelessly confused.

By what faculty other than experience could we know anything (apart from what is logically necessary) ?

Eventually I'll find the way out, through my trial and error, while you'd be still sitting there thinking everything's fine, until your dying day. — Metaphysician Undercover

Find your way out of what? Do you mean life? If so, you'll find your way out of that on your dying day. Far better to worry about how to live in the meantime.

The most fundamental constituents of the body survive death. @Sam26 seems to be thinking of consciousness, though.

Yes, I'm blowing very hard, just like the wind. — Metaphysician Undercover

:rofl: You seem more like a sailor whose ship is stuck motionless on a windless sea. You have a set of oars which would give you enough purchase to get you moving, but you don't realize it and instead stand in front of the sails futilely blowing at them.

Well sure, but my point is that the thing referred to here as "it" is a fiction. Therefore all that evidence does nothing for you. — Metaphysician Undercover

'Universe' just means 'the sum of what exists', so it refers to everything that exists, and is thus not a fiction at all.

And if you neatly ignore all the logical arguments against "the universe", insisting that empirical evidence is more important then logical necessity, you'll be restricted to believing in your fictitious story because all the available evidence points that way. — Metaphysician Undercover

This is very confused. What are the "logical arguments against the universe" exactly? Do you perhaps mean that there is no universe apart from the collection of all existing things inclduing spacetime? If so, I haven't denied that.

This definition is based in human experience. You define "exist" as what is not imaginary. So you base the definition in imagination, and say whatever is not imagination, exists. But that's self-refuting, because your definition is itself imaginary, you are imagining something which is not imaginary, i.e. exists, but by that very definition, it cannot exist. — Metaphysician Undercover

This is just playing with words sophistically. Of course the definition is based in human experience, everything we say is, so your "point" is without a point. The definition of 'existence' is not based in imagination, it is the counterpoint. 'To exist, to be real', only gets its meaning in distinction from 'to be imaginary, to be unreal', just as 'to be imaginary, to be unreal' only gets its meaning from 'to exist, to be real'.

What I dispute is the truth of "the universe". — Metaphysician Undercover

What are you disputing? It's far from clear. Are you claiming that nothing existed prior to humans?

There is much evidence like spatial expansion, and dark matter, to indicate that "the universe" is a failure as a concept. — Metaphysician Undercover

On what basis do you claim that spatial expansion and dark matter indicate that the idea of a universe is a "failed concept". What do you mean by "failed concept"? Did spatial expansion and dark matter exist prior to humans according to you?

concepts like "existence", and "universe", are just constructs derived from our experience. They may be completely misleading in relation to the way reality actually is. — Metaphysician Undercover

Again, it can obviously be said that every concept is derived from experience, in which case noting that is pointless. All our concepts "may be completely misleading in relation to the way reality actually is", but then what could that mean? "Concept', 'misleading', 'in relation to' 'the way reality actually is' are all concepts which we might equally claim to be somehow in error. But then what could that "being in error' even mean and where would that leave us?

I've just challenged anyone to provide a description or definition which isn't based in human experience, or simply begging the question, because i strongly believe that is impossible. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yet you have failed to give any argument for why we should agree with you. What's your argument? So far you are just looking like a blowhard.

Consistency doesn't imply truth. We can make very consistent fictions. And even when the story is consistent with empirical sensations, truth is not necessitated. — Metaphysician Undercover

I haven't said it is necessarily true that a Universe of things existed prior to humans existing. I've said that all the available evidence points to its having existed. You seem to be conflating logical necessity with empirical evidence.

Well then, give me an explanation of what it means to exist, which is not based in human experience, or simply begging the question. — Metaphysician Undercover

To exist is to be real, actual as opposed to imaginary. There are two logical possibilities―either the Universe existed prior to humans or it didn't. Neither is logically provable, since both are logical possibilities. We are left with what the evidence points to―which is that the Universe did exist prior
to humans.

It's very clear to me, and it ought to be for you as well, that "existence" refers to the specific way that we perceive our environment, and nothing else. "Existence" is defined by experience. — Metaphysician Undercover

That is not, in my experience, how 'existence' is generally understood, and it is certainly not how I understand it―it is merely your own idiosyncratic, tendentiously stipulated meaning. There is no reason why others should share your prejudices. If you want to live in your own little echo chamber that's up to you.

Don’t you mean perceived, rather than identified.
To be perceived, something merely needs to be witnessed, this does not require identification. — Punshhh

To be perceived is to stand out as a gestalt. To stand out as a gestalt is to be identified, although not necessarily in a linguistically self-reflective sense, since non-linguistically enabled animals are obviously capable of identifying the things that matter to them in their environments.

That also seems about right to me. The thing is, though, that identifying a difference is a rather different exercise from identifying an object. — Ludwig V

I wonder whether there are any free-floating differences that could be identified without identifying what the differences consists in. 'Objects' in the widest sense would include features like colours, textures, tones, smells, tastes and so on, insofar as these are all generally counted as objects of the senses.

I can see how one might want to say that. But "different" is a relation, so it requires two objects to be compared. Of course, from another perspective, those objects might be dissolved into a bundle of differences, which then require a range of other objects to establish themselves. — Ludwig V

:up: It seems we are agreeing.

I think there is some ambiguity around the word perceived. (Which I realised after posting) I was thinking of it meaning something is noticed, but not identified. — Punshhh

To be noticed is to be identified as something―a flash of light, a subtle odour, a patch of colour, something moving, and so on.

But many aspects of that concept indicate to us that it is a misrepresentation of reality. — Metaphysician Undercover

All our science is consistent in indicating that there was a universe, galaxies, star systems, planets and on Earth many organisms, plants, creatures long before there were humans. I see no reason to doubt the veracity of that conclusion.

This is highly doubtful. "To exist" is very clearly a concept structured around human experience. If you think otherwise, I'd be interested to see a good explanation of "existence" which wasn't based in human experience. And a simple definition which begs the question would not qualify as a good explanation. — Metaphysician Undercover

"To exist' is a human concept, as are all other concepts. There is nothing about that concept that necessitates it being confined to the human. Given that we all and some animals manifestly perceive the same environments and things in those environments there is no reason to consider that the concept applies only to what humans have experienced. You seem to be conflating two different things―that 'existence' can be understood to be a linguistically generated concept and the range of the application of that concept.

.

The logic of thinking difference involves things which are identified as being different. I don't see how you can escape that.

How can you say there is difference if it is not identified? How is it possible to think difference without thinking (identifying) the things which differ?

More precisely, there can be difference without a prior identity. So how does that work? — Joshs

How could there be difference unless some difference is identified? Identity and difference co-arise―you can't have one without the other.

I copied a couple of paragraphs from the original post, and then added commentary to the effect that it is not being argued that there was no universe prior to observers. — Wayfarer

So, you agree there was a universe prior to observers. What then are we disagreeing about?

The question I’m raising is not whether the universe existed, but what it means to say so. — Wayfarer

It's obvious what it means to say there was a universe prior to observers...it means, if true, that there was a universe prior to observers.

When you say “the cosmos was visible prior to the advent of percipients,” you're smuggling in a category — visibility — that only has meaning within the context of experience. That’s the point I keep returning to. — Wayfarer

It's a lame point though, and nothing is being "smuggled in" because it is simply a truism that everything we say only has meaning within the context of human experience and the judgements we make on the basis of experience. Since it obviously applies to everything there is no point bringing it up. As to visibility, we know what it means for something to be visible, and the idea doesn't depend on it being seen. Similarly we know what it means for something to exist, and it doesn't depend on the existence of humans.

It's about the conditions for meaningful discourse — the structure that allows us to form concepts like “universe,” “visibility,” or “existence” in the first place. I’m not making a deductive claim about what did or didn’t exist. I’m making a transcendental claim about what makes it possible to talk about existence at all. — Wayfarer

The fact that we exist and possess language makes it possible to talk about existence and anything else. As to "meaningful discourse", what makes sense to each of us may differ depending on our preconceptions and assumptions. You speak as though there is a fact of the matter regarding what it could be meaningful to say, but that is simply not true.

You are entitled to say that the idea of existence independent of human experience makes no sense to you, but you cannot justifiably pontificate about what should or should not make sense to others. It is that kind of dogmatic assumption that leads you to think that anyone who disagrees with your stipulations must not understand.

When we forget this distinction, we turn methodological naturalism into a metaphysical doctrine — and mistake the limits of our mode of knowing for the limits of what is. — Wayfarer

The irony is it seems that it is you that wants to restrict "what is" to what humans can know. I allow that all the things we experience have their own existence and had their own existence before there were any humans.

I don’t have the academic credentials to make the cut in a journal of that kind, but I’d suggest that the core argument of Mind-Created World would be regarded as fairly stock-in-trade in that context — not a mistake, but a well-recognized philosophical position. — Wayfarer

Perhaps...I tend to doubt that, but in any case so what?...that there are others who might think as you do doesn't mean much. There are others who think all kinds of things, and the majority of intelligent well-educated people seem to be metaphysical realists. I'm not going to find appeals to authority convincing.

the meaning of philosophy proper, — Wayfarer

The very idea of "philosophy proper" is dogmatic. There is no fact of the matter...it cannot be anything more than your opinion.

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What I think I see is that conversations on the forum often get stuck around 1) the justification of axioms, 2) accusations of misunderstanding or bad faith, 3) acrimony. It’s as if we’re hard-wired for conflict over difference. The worst offenders seem to call others liars and sophists when they are challenged by difference. — Tom Storm

These are good points Tom. I think people often forget that what they are presenting is merely one perspective. If they react defensively it seems to indicate that they have so much invested in their particular hobbyhorse that critique feels threatening. Hence the accusations of misunderstanding and lack of education.

The irony with the situation between Wayfarer and myself is that I am very familiar with all the arguments he presents, I used to present such arguments myself (and he knows this but does not want to admit it), but I have come to think there is very good reason to question the soundness of the presumptions upon which those arguments are based. He seems to take my critiques as personal attacks, when all I'm doing is expressing genuine objections.